God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

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Mark Golodetz
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#51 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 20th, 2020, 7:08 am

Don’t worry. “Jazz is everywhere”.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/nyre ... e=Homepage
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#52 Post by Jay Miller » November 20th, 2020, 7:39 am

Max S. wrote:
November 20th, 2020, 6:56 am
Jeremy Holmes wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 4:46 pm
I wish they wouldn't burden us with their wine preferences.
My greatest fear is this post will be lost to the masses.
+1 [cheers.gif]
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#53 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 20th, 2020, 7:41 am

We can keep this post, however spurious it is, in the public eye by demanding a recount.
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#54 Post by Brad England » November 20th, 2020, 4:37 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
November 20th, 2020, 7:39 am
Max S. wrote:
November 20th, 2020, 6:56 am
Jeremy Holmes wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 4:46 pm
I wish they wouldn't burden us with their wine preferences.
My greatest fear is this post will be lost to the masses.
+1 [cheers.gif]
Correct. One of the best of all time.
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#55 Post by William Gladstone » November 20th, 2020, 5:10 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 5:38 am
Parker used to write about Neil Young et al constantly, and now it’s Neal Martin. Actually he has been doing this for some time, but it just got to be a little annoying. His just completed article on the glorious 1959 vintage has just been published by Vinous. Let me say up front, that unlike Parker, Neal is an excellent writer, but why on earth should anybody care what he thinks about jazz?

This gem
“ Where’s the melody? The aleatory nature of jazz, zigzagging like a fly trapped in a jar, keeps me at arms length. I completely understand why others are fanatical, obsessive about this musical form, but I must accept that just like single malt whiskey and golf, jazz ain’t for me.”
Where and how do I add my name to an emphatic huge drum banging ! What don't you get that having all that you bring to the forum to be privileged to taste and write about wine, is an abuse of the privilege to write a review of Jazz.

What do you not get - Neal? Particularly to review a musical form you do not get or like?
Thank goodness is it someone beside me who has credibility and wisdom and not tagged as a complainer.
It so ruins the entire mood and trust for neal Martin and the site that he does that. How ever because of my professional relationship
I am so hesitant to express my feelings, but some how Mark has touched me in a way that has allowed me to explode.

To use your pulpit to criticize Jazz - and then like the guy who has some "black friends" so you are not a racists - you say you have the famous jazz albums so we can see how good and decent you are?

We should have some of the many people who do not appreciate wine write to you about what is wrong with wine and your pointless reviews.
And Aleatoric nature? Really? When a knowledgeable jazz musician improvises it is not like a fly trapped in a jar. It is not random, the great musicians are working around some core element. Your ears cannot
hear - just like someone without an educated palette cannot taste - that random fly who to your mind is pointlessly trapped in a confined space, is developing a theme.
Only a fool speaks on matters that they do not know.

I studied Indian Classical music for 15 years. Many an accomplished Jazz musician came in to learn as well,
what's the use...

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#56 Post by William Gladstone » November 20th, 2020, 5:56 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 5:38 am
Parker used to write about Neil Young et al constantly, and now it’s Neal Martin. Actually he has been doing this for some time, but it just got to be a little annoying. His just completed article on the glorious 1959 vintage has just been published by Vinous. Let me say up front, that unlike Parker, Neal is an excellent writer, but why on earth should anybody care what he thinks about jazz?

This gem
“ Where’s the melody? The aleatoric nature of jazz, zigzagging like a fly trapped in a jar, keeps me at arms length. I completely understand why others are fanatical, obsessive about this musical form, but I must accept that just like single malt whiskey and golf, jazz ain’t for me.”
"It ain't for you" Yet, you feel a compunction to review the musical form. So many people who appreciate your knowledge reflected in the wine reviews are so uncomfortable and offended that you have anointed yourself a music critic.
I find this so offensive and an abuse of your position Neal. Just how inflated an idea of self importance do you have- that you use your forum to write about an art form you not only know nothing about - you do not appreciate it.
Whenever I try to read your reviews it is difficult to get through as this self importance - music and other worldly areas come creeping in.
I know it is common in your generation to display this arrogance. Neal's knowledge of wine and study is evident, but why does he think this is what we want to read?
An online petition is something I'd like to see - I could not be the one to start it.
Where is the melody? Just like someone who does not like wine cannot find anything interesting, you cannot see - you are a blind man.
Aleatoric? Like a fly trapped in a jar? You've really displayed your stupidity and lack of understanding.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#57 Post by Julian Marshall » November 21st, 2020, 4:02 am

Dissent and discussion are great - I suspect that unlike Parker, who would have thrown a tantrum, Neal would probably take any comments without taking offence - so why do you not simply post them on the Vinous Your Say forum, so he can actually read them and react?!
I've never seen him post here, so the chances are he'll never know that he caused such opprobrium!

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#58 Post by Brad England » November 21st, 2020, 6:17 am

It's interesting, this discussion. While I correlate about 5% with Neal's musical preferences, I actually like that he weaves music into his writing. Even if I disagree. More music (and musical discussion/references) in the world will always be a plus for me. And count me in the camp that would likely love any random selection from Alan Weinberg's or Neal Mollen's collections.
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#59 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 21st, 2020, 1:02 pm

I’m actually curious why people think his weaving musical analogies and thought into wine articles isn’t warranted and doesn’t provide value and style that we should welcome. I’m not really seeing a convincing case against it above. And maybe he is happy to create and/or focus on an audience that appreciates this style and he doesn’t care if it’s not for everyone or is distracting or even off-putting to some readers.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#60 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 21st, 2020, 1:42 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 1:02 pm
I’m actually curious why people think his weaving musical analogies and thought into wine articles isn’t warranted and doesn’t provide value and style that we should welcome. I’m not really seeing a convincing case against it above. And maybe he is happy to create and/or focus on an audience that appreciates this style and he doesn’t care if it’s not for everyone or is distracting or even off-putting to some readers.
I subscribe to Vinous for its wine content. Period. If Neal is a more rounded person, and has something to say, let him do it in a separate article, dedicated to his musical musings. Make sure it is properly labeled, so I know it contains zero wine content and can skip accordingly. No commingling wine and music, and if he does feel an overwhelming urge, he should try his damndest not to disrespect an entire category as wonderful and diverse as jazz. It is bad enough that he inflicts his opinions on things he likes, it is not ok when he writes about Bordeaux and takes a sideswipe on something he doesn’t.
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#61 Post by William Gladstone » November 21st, 2020, 2:55 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 1:02 pm
I’m actually curious why people think his weaving musical analogies and thought into wine articles isn’t warranted and doesn’t provide value and style that we should welcome. I’m not really seeing a convincing case against it above. And maybe he is happy to create and/or focus on an audience that appreciates this style and he doesn’t care if it’s not for everyone or is distracting or even off-putting to some readers.
Besides the fact that he is no knowledgeable about Jazz, how can you over look someone who states he does not appreciate, like or understand a topic and then goes ahead to review. Who does he think he is? He must have become so full of himself. I've seen this happen so often with wine buyers and wine critics. the sales people often have to cater to 'buyers' of an establishment who become like Pufferfish. And Wine Critics take the treatment personally- that they receive from the wineries - beginning to believe their own self importance.
He is not blending his knowledge of a musical form to embellish his review of a wine. It is pure ego and he insults all of us. Why bother.

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#62 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 21st, 2020, 3:21 pm

William Gladstone wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 2:55 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 1:02 pm
I’m actually curious why people think his weaving musical analogies and thought into wine articles isn’t warranted and doesn’t provide value and style that we should welcome. I’m not really seeing a convincing case against it above. And maybe he is happy to create and/or focus on an audience that appreciates this style and he doesn’t care if it’s not for everyone or is distracting or even off-putting to some readers.
Besides the fact that he is no knowledgeable about Jazz, how can you over look someone who states he does not appreciate, like or understand a topic and then goes ahead to review. Who does he think he is? He must have become so full of himself. I've seen this happen so often with wine buyers and wine critics. the sales people often have to cater to 'buyers' of an establishment who become like Pufferfish. And Wine Critics take the treatment personally- that they receive from the wineries - beginning to believe their own self importance.
He is not blending his knowledge of a musical form to embellish his review of a wine. It is pure ego and he insults all of us. Why bother.
I don’t agree with his criticism of jazz, which was perfunctory. Seem pretty silly to me and I wasn’t defending that, per my other comment above. But who am I to judge whether he chooses to discuss music and wine together beyond his silly view on jazz?

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#63 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 21st, 2020, 3:25 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 1:42 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 1:02 pm
I’m actually curious why people think his weaving musical analogies and thought into wine articles isn’t warranted and doesn’t provide value and style that we should welcome. I’m not really seeing a convincing case against it above. And maybe he is happy to create and/or focus on an audience that appreciates this style and he doesn’t care if it’s not for everyone or is distracting or even off-putting to some readers.
I subscribe to Vinous for its wine content. Period. If Neal is a more rounded person, and has something to say, let him do it in a separate article, dedicated to his musical musings. Make sure it is properly labeled, so I know it contains zero wine content and can skip accordingly. No commingling wine and music, and if he does feel an overwhelming urge, he should try his damndest not to disrespect an entire category as wonderful and diverse as jazz. It is bad enough that he inflicts his opinions on things he likes, it is not ok when he writes about Bordeaux and takes a sideswipe on something he doesn’t.
See above. Again, I think his view on jazz is ridiculous, but that’s me.

Also, Mark, you don’t have to subscribe or read him. A friend of many years reviews for Vinous and I still don’t subscribe. I gave up paid subscriptions years ago by choice.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#64 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 21st, 2020, 4:11 pm

I think Neal is among the better wine writers, and I am interested in his views on the tastings like the 1959s, which is why I bother to subscribe. For the most part I didn’t really get too bothered about his music writing, but this last article was disrespectful, capricious and unnecessary.

If he is going to write about it, nothing is added by his dismissal of a whole genre of music.
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#65 Post by ray ormand » November 21st, 2020, 4:48 pm

Neal Martin on jazz: irreverent, irresponsible, ill-informed. Neal Martin on wine: happy to read him.
Last edited by ray ormand on November 22nd, 2020, 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#66 Post by Warren Taranow » November 21st, 2020, 10:14 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 8:24 am
From the classic Stuff White People Like blog:

"Historically speaking, the music that white people have kept on life support for the longest period of time is Jazz. Thanks largely to public radio, bookstores, and coffee shops, Jazz has carved out a niche in white culture that is not yet ready to be replaced by Indie Rock. But the biggest role that Jazz plays in white culture is in the white fantasy of leisure. All white people believe that they prefer listening to jazz over watching television. This is not true.

Every few a months, a white person will put on some Jazz and pour themselves a glass of wine or scotch and tell themselves how nice it is. Then they will get bored and watch television or write emails to other white people about how nice it was to listen to Jazz at home. “Last night, I poured myself a glass of Shiraz and put Charlie Parker on the Bose. It was so relaxing, I wish I had a fireplace.”"

https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/1 ... o-anymore/
That is a truly impressive amount of bullshit in a very few sentences.

I like Neal's writing about wine, and I like his writing about pop music. I'd rather not see him combine the two ("this is the Nine Inch Nails of Lagrein") but I am sure that John will alert me if he does.

My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
I was scrolling down this thread, looking for a post from Neal, knowing that someone whose avatar is Thelonious Monk without a hat would be obliged to comment!
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#67 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » November 22nd, 2020, 2:30 am

I do wonder how many folks here who are trashing Neal for trashing jazz have ever, themselves, trashed heavy metal or rap/hip-hop ... [whistle.gif]
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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#68 Post by James Wright » November 22nd, 2020, 3:24 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm



My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
that is very well put, Neal.

and the horrible thing about it is that most of the individuals who created this legendary art
did so while being reminded every day that they were not only second-class citizens,
but second-class human beings as well

that is not to say that jazz is exclusively Black –
were it not for Ellington’s and Strayhorn’s affinity for the music of Debussy & Ravel
we would have jazz of an appreciably different nature
~ Verteidiger der Wahrheit ~

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#69 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 22nd, 2020, 4:17 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 2:30 am
I do wonder how many folks here who are trashing Neal for trashing jazz have ever, themselves, trashed heavy metal or rap/hip-hop ... [whistle.gif]
Guilty. But then I don’t drag my dislike of rap kicking and screaming into an article about wines from 1959.
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#70 Post by Robert Sand » November 22nd, 2020, 4:49 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm

My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
I fully agree with that, often overlooked here in Europe, unfortunately.

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#71 Post by Robert Sand » November 22nd, 2020, 4:49 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm

My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
I fully agree with that, often overlooked here in Europe, unfortunately.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#72 Post by Neal.Mollen » November 22nd, 2020, 7:09 am

Warren Taranow wrote:
November 21st, 2020, 10:14 pm
Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 8:24 am
From the classic Stuff White People Like blog:

"Historically speaking, the music that white people have kept on life support for the longest period of time is Jazz. Thanks largely to public radio, bookstores, and coffee shops, Jazz has carved out a niche in white culture that is not yet ready to be replaced by Indie Rock. But the biggest role that Jazz plays in white culture is in the white fantasy of leisure. All white people believe that they prefer listening to jazz over watching television. This is not true.

Every few a months, a white person will put on some Jazz and pour themselves a glass of wine or scotch and tell themselves how nice it is. Then they will get bored and watch television or write emails to other white people about how nice it was to listen to Jazz at home. “Last night, I poured myself a glass of Shiraz and put Charlie Parker on the Bose. It was so relaxing, I wish I had a fireplace.”"

https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/1 ... o-anymore/
That is a truly impressive amount of bullshit in a very few sentences.

I like Neal's writing about wine, and I like his writing about pop music. I'd rather not see him combine the two ("this is the Nine Inch Nails of Lagrein") but I am sure that John will alert me if he does.

My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
I was scrolling down this thread, looking for a post from Neal, knowing that someone whose avatar is Thelonious Monk without a hat would be obliged to comment!
You know me too well Warren -- an opinion on everything.

I don't subscribe any longer, so I can't really offer a substantive opinion on Neal's piece. Mark quotes 2 sentences, necessarily out of context, with which I disagree. If Neal was reviewing wine and popped in that gratuitous jab at jazz, shame on him. "This cuvèe is 50% mouvedre -- hang on a minute, jazz sucks -- and spends 2 years on new Slovinian oak."

But Neal has always written about music, since his earliest days with Parker. Sometimes I agreed, often I didn't. But absent the sort of non sequitur I imagined above, it surely didn't bother me if when wrote about it, and it is odd that doing so would piss someone off.
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#73 Post by crickey » November 22nd, 2020, 8:13 am

I went back to read the article (I didn't originally because I have no interest in reading about old wine; I'm never going to have any). It was just odd. It opens with four paragraphs on jazz that basically suggested the level of sophistication of something I might have written when I was in grade school (I read something on the internet that said 1959 was an important year in jazz. I don't like jazz, yuck. Now, onto the wine). Then it transitions to discussing wine with the only tie-in being the commonality of the year. I will quote the whole of the transition: "Nineteen fifty-nine was also fecund in terms of wine, not just in terms of the intrinsic and hedonic quality itself, but how the vintage was a pivotal stepping-stone between prescientific and modern winemaking." That "also" represents the whole transition and carries the entire burden of the supposed analogue.

In terms of essay-writing, I gotten give that intro a 50. Even weirder to carry the the non-analogue over into the title.
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#74 Post by Neal.Mollen » November 22nd, 2020, 8:34 am

Turns out the article is available for free for those who are interested: https://www.vinous.com/articles/the-yea ... 9-nov-2020
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#75 Post by Russell Faulkner » November 22nd, 2020, 8:45 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:34 am
Turns out the article is available for free for those who are interested: https://www.vinous.com/articles/the-yea ... 9-nov-2020
That’s what all this fuss is about???

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#76 Post by Neal.Mollen » November 22nd, 2020, 8:49 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:45 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:34 am
Turns out the article is available for free for those who are interested: https://www.vinous.com/articles/the-yea ... 9-nov-2020
That’s what all this fuss is about???
Yup. Kinda what my reaction was too. He seems to equate free jazz (about which he and I agree)*/ with all jazz, which is uninformed, but I can't imagine being worked up over it.


*/ Anyone who thinks Brubeck's Time Out is aleatoric is missing something. Ornette? Absolutely. Kinda Blue? Not feeling it.
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#77 Post by Mark Golodetz » November 22nd, 2020, 9:40 am

I fail to see the connection between jazz that was being played almost exclusively in the US, and wines that were harvested from grapes grown three thousand miles away. It is completely gratuitous, and I am still curious as to why it should appear in a wine column, and even more curious as to why go to the trouble of writing about it since he doesn’t like jazz anyway.

Does it help me understand his review of Domaine de Chevalier any more? Would he like Latour ‘59 any better if he was listening to Miles Davis, or actually wanted to? Do I find his reviews any more or less credible because he doesn’t like the music?
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#78 Post by Russell Faulkner » November 22nd, 2020, 9:46 am

Jazz was certainly quite popular in the U.K. in the late 50s. My father was and still is a huge aficionado, the widespread US military bases were certainly a major catalyst.

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#79 Post by john stimson » November 22nd, 2020, 10:17 am

And hardly a peep about scotch? A wine critic who doesn't get scotch somehow gives me more pause than one who is indifferent to jazz.

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#80 Post by crickey » November 22nd, 2020, 10:28 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 9:40 am
I fail to see the connection between jazz that was being played almost exclusively in the US, and wines that were harvested from grapes grown three thousand miles away. It is completely gratuitous, and I am still curious as to why it should appear in a wine column, and even more curious as to why go to the trouble of writing about it since he doesn’t like jazz anyway.

Does it help me understand his review of Domaine de Chevalier any more? Would he like Latour ‘59 any better if he was listening to Miles Davis, or actually wanted to? Do I find his reviews any more or less credible because he doesn’t like the music?
I think it was meant as nothing more than a tie-in to the historical period; it was, after all, an article on wines from 1959, and one not even limited to one wine region, country or variety. He could have done a basic recap, sort of "here are several things that occurred in 1959," and it would have been facile, but wouldn't have raised any eyebrows. I suspect he decided to focus on the jazz angle to try to make some kind of qualitative analogy between jazz in 1959 and wine, something he utterly failed to do in the article. Including his own personal feelings about jazz simply made it more ham-fisted.
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#81 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » November 22nd, 2020, 10:36 am

john stimson wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 10:17 am
And hardly a peep about scotch? A wine critic who doesn't get scotch somehow gives me more pause than one who is indifferent to jazz.
I peeped!
Sort of ITB - my husband imports a small amount of sake and I help out

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#82 Post by alan weinberg » November 22nd, 2020, 10:38 am

maybe he just wanted to use the word aleatoric.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#83 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 22nd, 2020, 12:09 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:49 am
Russell Faulkner wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:45 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 8:34 am
Turns out the article is available for free for those who are interested: https://www.vinous.com/articles/the-yea ... 9-nov-2020
That’s what all this fuss is about???
Yup. Kinda what my reaction was too. He seems to equate free jazz (about which he and I agree)*/ with all jazz, which is uninformed, but I can't imagine being worked up over it.


*/ Anyone who thinks Brubeck's Time Out is aleatoric is missing something. Ornette? Absolutely. Kinda Blue? Not feeling it.
Ditto on all this.

Synopsis of gratuitous, disconnected intro to a piece on 1959 wine written in style of 6th grade essayist:
- I don’t like Jazz
- It doesn’t sound good to me (but I’ll use big words like aleatoric to say that so it sounds fancy and given I only have enough words in my piece to allocate 2 sentences to this topic)
- let me list famous jazz artists and which albums they were working on at that time because I like to make lists
- ok, now let’s talk about 1959 in wine. (Time to swoon everyone.)

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#84 Post by john stimson » November 22nd, 2020, 1:56 pm

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 10:36 am
john stimson wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 10:17 am
And hardly a peep about scotch? A wine critic who doesn't get scotch somehow gives me more pause than one who is indifferent to jazz.
I peeped!
You did, and I noticed!

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#85 Post by Bob Hoelting » November 22nd, 2020, 3:56 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 2:30 am
I do wonder how many folks here who are trashing Neal for trashing jazz have ever, themselves, trashed heavy metal or rap/hip-hop ... [whistle.gif]
Why, yes. Two Buck Chuck and Yellowtail deserve their own metaphors, too.
[snort.gif]

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#86 Post by dougwilder » November 22nd, 2020, 4:14 pm

I usually create a mix tape on the iPhone for tasting and photography sessions and pipe it through a small set of speakers. Winemakers tell me they enjoy it. Since I am curtailing the one on one tastings for a while I haven't been too crazy about music in the photo sessions in 2020. I understand that Neal Martin has a great love of music. He actually turned me on to a female vocalist I enjoy a lot. I'm beginning to accumulate short articles from those who have other passions outside of wine. I published one on surfing at Ocean Beach which is something I have never experienced but it was so well written and photographed I was pulled to it. I keep beating on the door of a guy who builds Porsche 356 from the ground up (but he has been a tough nut to crack) I hope nobody feels I'm burdening them with my winemaker portraits.
itb as a wine critic, publisher and photographer

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#87 Post by Keith Levenberg » November 22nd, 2020, 7:56 pm

Neal Martin has always needed an editor, but this thread reminds me of the old quote about how Wagner's music is better than it sounds.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#88 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 22nd, 2020, 8:13 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 7:56 pm
Neal Martin has always needed an editor, but this thread reminds me of the old quote about how Wagner's music is better than it sounds.
I have no skin in the game on Wagner but don’t you be dissing jazz, #%^*, I mean, mon ami.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#89 Post by john stimson » November 22nd, 2020, 8:36 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 7:56 pm
Neal Martin has always needed an editor, but this thread reminds me of the old quote about how Wagner's music is better than it sounds.
Have always loved the various versions of this quote, originally by Edgar Wilson Nye.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#90 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » November 22nd, 2020, 8:36 pm

Bob Hoelting wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 3:56 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 2:30 am
I do wonder how many folks here who are trashing Neal for trashing jazz have ever, themselves, trashed heavy metal or rap/hip-hop ... [whistle.gif]
Why, yes. Two Buck Chuck and Yellowtail deserve their own metaphors, too.
[snort.gif]
ok ... funny ... but only because I love you. [pillow-fight.gif]
“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#91 Post by Br1an Th0rne » November 23rd, 2020, 2:43 am

alan weinberg wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 10:38 am
maybe he just wanted to use the word aleatoric.
My money is on fecund.

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Re: God, I wish critics would stick to wines and not burden us with their musical preferences.

#92 Post by Dennis Borczon » November 23rd, 2020, 5:00 am

James Wright wrote:
November 22nd, 2020, 3:24 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm



My personal view is that jazz is this country's greatest artistic contribution to the world. It pains me that it is not more broadly recognized as such
that is very well put, Neal.

and the horrible thing about it is that most of the individuals who created this legendary art
did so while being reminded every day that they were not only second-class citizens,
but second-class human beings as well

that is not to say that jazz is exclusively Black –
were it not for Ellington’s and Strayhorn’s affinity for the music of Debussy & Ravel
we would have jazz of an appreciably different nature
This, is jazz


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