Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

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Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#1 Post by Victor Hong »

Last edited by Victor Hong on October 29th, 2020, 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#2 Post by TimF »

Victor Hong wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:03 am Maybe another court is warranted.
No question. It's sad, scary and infuriating to see how much crap these guys have gotten away with.
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Yup...

#3 Post by TomHill »

Victor Hong wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:03 am https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/29/dini ... -wine.html

Maybe another court is warranted.
Just read that, Victor. Some famous names accused: BobBath/FredDame/GeoffKnuth.
Things not looking good for Court of MasterSommeliers. Really a sad situation.
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#4 Post by Sean S y d n e y »

The organization as it currently exists is beyond reform. Massive, massive change is necessary.

And, realistically, we need to ask if the Court itself is necessary.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#5 Post by Dennis Atick »

Victor- Thread needs a better title. Some horrific details of really shitty behavior by seemingly important and powerful men in the Court.
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#6 Post by C Wagner »

Seems like quite a stark contrast from what I’ve experienced with the WSET.

Perhaps the WSET/MW programs should be more widely embraced by the service industry.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#7 Post by KyleC »

Dennis Atick wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:57 am Victor- Thread needs a better title. Some horrific details of really shitty behavior by seemingly important and powerful men in the Court.
+100 to this. The title is not at all reflective of the story.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you in court!

#8 Post by Victor Hong »

Done.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#9 Post by Paul Miller »

Holy crap! I met one of the men last night at a wine dinner!

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#10 Post by Victor Hong »

Think of the James Beard Society culture, with the additional ingredients of money and alcohol.
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#11 Post by Sean S y d n e y »

C Wagner wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:59 am Seems like quite a stark contrast from what I’ve experienced with the WSET.

Perhaps the WSET/MW programs should be more widely embraced by the service industry.
While I'm firmly opposed to almost all bureaucratification/middle management-ification of wine, it does seem that the WSET and MW streams are far less male dominated and have had more women in its ranks from the beginning.

The CMS is definitely more designed to appeal to competitive, testosterone-filled, dick-waving types.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#12 Post by Dennis Borczon »

I would be really pissed if I put in all that time, money, and sweat to get certified, then had the whole credential tainted. Maybe some of the principal's involved are not as smart as they seem. Calling Mario Battali..

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#13 Post by Victor Hong »

Dennis Borczon wrote: October 29th, 2020, 12:27 pm I would be really p1ssed if I put in all that time, money, and sweat to get certified, then had the whole credential tainted. Maybe some of the principal's involved are not as smart as they seem. Calling Mario Battali..
Just tack an "*" onto the credential, as is done in baseball.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#14 Post by Craig G »

Wow, what a bunch of creeps.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#15 Post by Rodrigo B »

Sean S y d n e y wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:54 am The organization as it currently exists is beyond reform. Massive, massive change is necessary.

And, realistically, we need to ask if the Court itself is necessary.
In its current format, I reckon the CMS has fundamentally failed many of its members, not just because of the rampant sexual harassment, but I do think there is likely some value in having a hospitality focused wine education/accreditation organisation.

Last year, Bobby Stuckey talked on the VinePair podcast about how he saw the role/value of some type of formal wine accreditation/education. The way he described it was seeing these types of programs, whether the CMS, MW, WSET was as a form of market signal to employers. It serves to employers as a signal a particular person understands not only about wine, but also about wine as business and it role in the context of running a successful and financially viable restaurant, like any other type of higher level degree in other industries (MBAs, PhDs, etc.)

Even as that the CMS seems to have failed. You hear so many stories of people taking years and years to pass and spending more on tastings, classes, and exam fees than what the pay bump in their salary ends up being post accreditation.

There’s some serious reform that needs to happen, and it’s unlikely that the organisation itself can undergo that. More likely than not, a new organisation founded from the ground up with a different set of principles and goals is required.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#16 Post by Victor Hong »

If the allegations are true, a CMS professional designation seems as valuable as being a Managing Director at Lehman Brothers.
Maybe, the institution can offer refunds.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#17 Post by Sean S y d n e y »

Rodrigo B wrote: October 29th, 2020, 12:59 pm
Sean S y d n e y wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:54 am The organization as it currently exists is beyond reform. Massive, massive change is necessary.

And, realistically, we need to ask if the Court itself is necessary.
In its current format, I reckon the CMS has fundamentally failed many of its members, not just because of the rampant sexual harassment, but I do think there is likely some value in having a hospitality focused wine education/accreditation organisation.

Last year, Bobby Stuckey talked on the VinePair podcast about how he saw the role/value of some type of formal wine accreditation/education. The way he described it was seeing these types of programs, whether the CMS, MW, WSET was as a form of market signal to employers. It serves to employers as a signal a particular person understands not only about wine, but also about wine as business and it role in the context of running a successful and financially viable restaurant, like any other type of higher level degree in other industries (MBAs, PhDs, etc.)

Even as that the CMS seems to have failed. You hear so many stories of people taking years and years to pass and spending more on tastings, classes, and exam fees than what the pay bump in their salary ends up being post accreditation.

There’s some serious reform that needs to happen, and it’s unlikely that the organisation itself can undergo that. More likely than not, a new organisation founded from the ground up with a different set of principles and goals is required.
I'm deeply unconvinced by that argument. Of course MSs believe it's relevant; it allows them to become gatekeepers, accumulate power and influence, perpetuate a system of credentialism and unnecessary "skills" (does anyone give a blue f*** about your ability to rattle off the soil types of the Middle Loire?) and, above all, make some money. Many start sommelier schools or other tutoring businesses to continue the pyramid scheme-like of taking thousands of dollars from would-be Certified/Advanced/Master Sommeliers and bolster the importance of that training. I believe in learning for the sake of learning, so wine education CAN be an enriching, positive, community-focused atmosphere. I'm a member of a couple tasting groups where that's the case. I do not believe applying the principles of middle management and modern-capitalist (sorry to get academic here!) structures to a cultural cornerstone like wine is an inherently good thing. And, like you said, the Court itself and the people involved in it are handsomely rewarded for their efforts to apply these principles through exams, tastings, industry connections, etcetera.

Combine these factors with unbridled arrogance, pervasive entitlement, and male-dominated organizational opacity and you have all the ingredients for a toxic cocktail of misogyny and harassment.

I'm a restaurant worker and have quite a few friends and colleagues/industry folks who have gone through various levels of the CMS. I'm moderate acquaintances with one of Canada's half-dozen MSs - who has a somm school, natch - and I respect him. Many of them are very good at their jobs; I see many others struggle to translate their Somm School skills into talking about, selling, and most importantly, COMMUNICATING about wine with other people or restaurant guests when they've been trained to approach wine a certain way.
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#18 Post by mark rudner »

horrible but not surprising
thanks for posting victor

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#19 Post by Jason T »

These women are courageous for speaking out. I hope they and the other women who have suffered this abuse find peace, and justice, to the extent that's possible. And I also hope that this can be the beginning of real change within the Court.
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#20 Post by kyledorsey »

The disgusting behavior documented is shocking but not surprising. The article really establishes a clear pattern of behavior by many powerful people in the CMS, even using some of the same tactics, lines, and excuses. I think it shows that the problems are endemic and structural, and it sure seems that the organization is beyond reform. I think having an educational credential for the wine industry is important, but it is clear that this is not the organization to administer it. The time has come for the CMS to end.

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#21 Post by K John Joseph »

Jason T wrote: October 29th, 2020, 1:29 pm These women are courageous for speaking out. I hope they and the other women who have suffered this abuse find peace, and justice, to the extent that's possible. And I also hope that this can be the beginning of real change within the Court.
I know Courtney Keeling, one of the women whose story is shared late in the article. She was a somm at Grailey's in Dallas for a while. She is incredibly kind, knowledgeable, and very good at her job. I'm glad to see her speak out. She did not deserve the harassment or, rather, I should say does not deserve the harassment. It has got to be a brutally tough job being an attractive young woman around a predominately male clientele with alcohol and money involved. And that's sad to say.
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#22 Post by C Wagner »

Sean S y d n e y wrote: October 29th, 2020, 1:16 pm
Rodrigo B wrote: October 29th, 2020, 12:59 pm
Sean S y d n e y wrote: October 29th, 2020, 11:54 am The organization as it currently exists is beyond reform. Massive, massive change is necessary.

And, realistically, we need to ask if the Court itself is necessary.
In its current format, I reckon the CMS has fundamentally failed many of its members, not just because of the rampant sexual harassment, but I do think there is likely some value in having a hospitality focused wine education/accreditation organisation.

Last year, Bobby Stuckey talked on the VinePair podcast about how he saw the role/value of some type of formal wine accreditation/education. The way he described it was seeing these types of programs, whether the CMS, MW, WSET was as a form of market signal to employers. It serves to employers as a signal a particular person understands not only about wine, but also about wine as business and it role in the context of running a successful and financially viable restaurant, like any other type of higher level degree in other industries (MBAs, PhDs, etc.)

Even as that the CMS seems to have failed. You hear so many stories of people taking years and years to pass and spending more on tastings, classes, and exam fees than what the pay bump in their salary ends up being post accreditation.

There’s some serious reform that needs to happen, and it’s unlikely that the organisation itself can undergo that. More likely than not, a new organisation founded from the ground up with a different set of principles and goals is required.
I'm deeply unconvinced by that argument. Of course MSs believe it's relevant; it allows them to become gatekeepers, accumulate power and influence, perpetuate a system of credentialism and unnecessary "skills" (does anyone give a blue f*** about your ability to rattle off the soil types of the Middle Loire?) and, above all, make some money. Many start sommelier schools or other tutoring businesses to continue the pyramid scheme-like of taking thousands of dollars from would-be Certified/Advanced/Master Sommeliers and bolster the importance of that training. I believe in learning for the sake of learning, so wine education CAN be an enriching, positive, community-focused atmosphere. I'm a member of a couple tasting groups where that's the case. I do not believe applying the principles of middle management and modern-capitalist (sorry to get academic here!) structures to a cultural cornerstone like wine is an inherently good thing. And, like you said, the Court itself and the people involved in it are handsomely rewarded for their efforts to apply these principles through exams, tastings, industry connections, etcetera.

Combine these factors with unbridled arrogance, pervasive entitlement, and male-dominated organizational opacity and you have all the ingredients for a toxic cocktail of misogyny and harassment.

I'm a restaurant worker and have quite a few friends and colleagues/industry folks who have gone through various levels of the CMS. I'm moderate acquaintances with one of Canada's half-dozen MSs - who has a somm school, natch - and I respect him. Many of them are very good at their jobs; I see many others struggle to translate their Somm School skills into talking about, selling, and most importantly, COMMUNICATING about wine with other people or restaurant guests when they've been trained to approach wine a certain way.
I can certainly understand how one might feel/think the way that you do, but the issues you mention seem to be much more prevalent in the CMS than in WSET. I hesitate to say non-existent, as I wouldn’t say that about any organization these days. I know that in the restaurant industry very few in the US/CAN pursue WSET/MW, but my experience has been that outside NA WSET/MW are the more prevalent/recognized credential. However, this is purely anecdotal. If I’m purely to speculate, might a portion of this issue have some root with the systemic harassment/misogyny in the restaurant industry as a whole?

WSET/MW are set up much more as an educational credential rather than an entry into a career or position. There is really next to no “gate keeping” as you call it. As far as I can recall, every single instructor/proctor I’ve had has been female.

My opinion is that in nearly every field there must be some sort of standardized credential to demonstrate a certain level of knowledge on a subject. What that should look like, I do not know. However, it definitely seems clear the CMS has demonstrated that its reputation is not dissimilar to that of the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church. Perhaps in some circles Geoff Kruth will be mentioned in the same breath as Harvey Weinstein.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#23 Post by Rodrigo B »

Sean S y d n e y wrote: October 29th, 2020, 1:16 pm I'm deeply unconvinced by that argument. Of course MSs believe it's relevant; it allows them to become gatekeepers, accumulate power and influence, perpetuate a system of credentialism and unnecessary "skills" (does anyone give a blue f*** about your ability to rattle off the soil types of the Middle Loire?) and, above all, make some money. Many start sommelier schools or other tutoring businesses to continue the pyramid scheme-like of taking thousands of dollars from would-be Certified/Advanced/Master Sommeliers and bolster the importance of that training. I believe in learning for the sake of learning, so wine education CAN be an enriching, positive, community-focused atmosphere. I'm a member of a couple tasting groups where that's the case. I do not believe applying the principles of middle management and modern-capitalist (sorry to get academic here!) structures to a cultural cornerstone like wine is an inherently good thing. And, like you said, the Court itself and the people involved in it are handsomely rewarded for their efforts to apply these principles through exams, tastings, industry connections, etcetera.

Combine these factors with unbridled arrogance, pervasive entitlement, and male-dominated organizational opacity and you have all the ingredients for a toxic cocktail of misogyny and harassment.

I'm a restaurant worker and have quite a few friends and colleagues/industry folks who have gone through various levels of the CMS. I'm moderate acquaintances with one of Canada's half-dozen MSs - who has a somm school, natch - and I respect him. Many of them are very good at their jobs; I see many others struggle to translate their Somm School skills into talking about, selling, and most importantly, COMMUNICATING about wine with other people or restaurant guests when they've been trained to approach wine a certain way.
I certainly understand your comments. By no means am I advocating that the only successful path forward for those in wine is through an educating/accrediting body. One need look towards people like Tahiirah Habibi and their success in the absence of a certification to highlight that. Nor does it de facto mean that those that have gone through CMS understand what it takes to run a beverage program, like you noted, many accredited somms aren’t necessarily good selling wine and communicating their knowledge to others.

I’d have to listen to the conversation again, but from my recollection Bobby Stuckey wasn’t specifically defending and promoting the virtues of CMS and saying all service people should go through it. Rather, he was speaking that as an employer, the most important thing for him was that not only that people knew about wine, but that they also understood the business of wine. As you noted, it’s one thing to know about soil types, it’s another to translate your knowledge into selling and promoting a restaurant’s beverage program. To that end, from his experience hiring people, people that have gone through some form of wine accreditation, whether CMS, MW, WSET, or other, tended to have a greater understanding of the business side of wine. As I noted earlier though, that’s not to mean that an accreditation is the sole path forward.

I do see a need/space for an organisation focused on teaching and promoting good hospitality and helping people learn not only about things like obscure lieu-dit and varietals, but equally, if not mores, helping them understand customer service and the business of selling wine. What that exactly looks like, I’m not entirely sure. I do think that regardless of what that looks like, aside from just teaching about wine, there also needs to be a strong focus on service, hospitality and understanding the business of buying and selling wine. And for sure one that does not require one to invest a disproportionately large amount of money on it.
C Wagner wrote: October 29th, 2020, 3:06 pm Perhaps in some circles Geoff Kruth will be mentioned in the same breath as Harvey Weinstein.
I don’t doubt it. Thankfully more and more people are becoming aware of these types of actions and speaking out about it. A bit of bummer on this. In the past I have enjoyed some of his Lost & Found wines. Regrettably, it seems going forward I’ll no longer be a buyer of them.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers

#24 Post by Sean S y d n e y »

C Wagner wrote: October 29th, 2020, 3:06 pm
I can certainly understand how one might feel/think the way that you do, but the issues you mention seem to be much more prevalent in the CMS than in WSET. I hesitate to say non-existent, as I wouldn’t say that about any organization these days. I know that in the restaurant industry very few in the US/CAN pursue WSET/MW, but my experience has been that outside NA WSET/MW are the more prevalent/recognized credential. However, this is purely anecdotal. If I’m purely to speculate, might a portion of this issue have some root with the systemic harassment/misogyny in the restaurant industry as a whole?

WSET/MW are set up much more as an educational credential rather than an entry into a career or position. There is really next to no “gate keeping” as you call it. As far as I can recall, every single instructor/proctor I’ve had has been female.

My opinion is that in nearly every field there must be some sort of standardized credential to demonstrate a certain level of knowledge on a subject. What that should look like, I do not know. However, it definitely seems clear the CMS has demonstrated that its reputation is not dissimilar to that of the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church. Perhaps in some circles Geoff Kruth will be mentioned in the same breath as Harvey Weinstein.
There is reasonably widespread adoption of the WSET/MW and it does have a history in Canada, but because of the Somm films and general "Somm culture" the CMS has found more of a footing and following as of late. What I appreciate about the MW stream is, like you said, that it's more about education than parlour tricks and memorization (though the DipWSET has plenty of that!) and seeing/writing about wine in much more of a cultural, social, and historical context.

The fact is that there are incredibly few true "Somm" jobs. Most sommeliers are also restaurant GMs, and the pumping-out of Certified Sommeliers will inevitably reach a glut if it hasn't already. But, of course, that encourages folks to go for their Advanced, which is a ton more work, time, and, of course, money. I'm not sure how you can go about creating something that shows proficiency while ignoring the pitfalls, but I hope there's a genuine attempt at it.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#25 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »

Read the article. Have there been any resignations from master sommeliers in response to this on social media?
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#26 Post by Rodrigo B »

Don't know if there has been any CMS resignations so far (Geoff Kruth did leave GuildSomm), but CMS did put out a statement:

https://www.mastersommeliers.org/sites/ ... MS-A_0.pdf

Feels pretty hollow IMHO
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#27 Post by Victor Hong »

And before the article, they had no scintilla of an inkling.....
(And RBS never heard of subprime CDOs before the bailout.)
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#28 Post by R Davis »

A few months ago, shortly after the spate of resignations from CMS as a response to BLM, I asked Bobby Stuckey what he thought about that sort of response since one of his protoge's was one of those who resigned. I didn't anticipate his response as it went far beyond the belated response from the court. He basically stated that the court needed to 'professionalize' in terms of not just diversity, but general equal opportunity, integrity, and moving away from the club type organization that the court has become. He saw the functional problems before the court knew there were problems. He started an internal campaign well before 2020 but couldn't get the alignment needed for change. But now with a bigger national conversation, all of a sudden somms are resigning instead of working to fix an obviously broken system. As such, his frustrations were visible.

All that said, Bobby is a pro. I don't use that term lightly. Well before BLM exploded, he was trying to drive change within the court as he sees the viability of that organization as a way to further the profession of service. With this latest scandal, I can't help but to wonder if his efforts are too little too late.

He is also leading the effort to get our government to help independent restaurants survive. He is a leader in an industry that many of us value.
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#29 Post by Tom G l a s g o w »

The reader comments are all over the place.

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#30 Post by TimF »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: October 29th, 2020, 4:17 pm Read the article. Have there been any resignations from master sommeliers in response to this on social media?
There were some earlier this summer. If you follow Levi Dalton on Twitter there was a bunch of activity a few months ago.
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#31 Post by Rich K0rz€nk0 »

Horrific stories in that article. And sad. The resignations are a start, however culture is a reflection of leadership, and I don't think there will be meaningful change until that shifts.
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#32 Post by Christian Obermanns »

Geoff Kruth aka Harvey WINE-stein.

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#33 Post by Victor Hong »

Wine stain.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#34 Post by Brian S t o t t e r »



Director of the Somm films.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#35 Post by Marcu$ Stanley »

Brian S t o t t e r wrote: October 30th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Director of the Somm films.
Covering his ass...the Somm movies 100% catered to and enabled the egomania of the CMS crowd. He could at least show some self awareness and humility

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#36 Post by Peter Valiquette »

Sounds like a bunch of self important bullies who set themselves up as gatekeepers to the industry.

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#37 Post by Keith Levenberg »

Marcu$ Stanley wrote: October 31st, 2020, 6:48 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: October 30th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Director of the Somm films.
Covering his ass...the Somm movies 100% catered to and enabled the egomania of the CMS crowd. He could at least show some self awareness and humility
"the wine world" is a big place with loads of wonderful people all over. Just because he chose to enable and make fake celebrities out of some of the most obnoxious assholes in it doesn't give him standing to piss all over the rest of it.

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#38 Post by Scott Brunson »

Keith Levenberg wrote: October 31st, 2020, 7:11 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote: October 31st, 2020, 6:48 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: October 30th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Director of the Somm films.
Covering his ass...the Somm movies 100% catered to and enabled the egomania of the CMS crowd. He could at least show some self awareness and humility
"the wine world" is a big place with loads of wonderful people all over. Just because he chose to enable and make fake celebrities out of some of the most obnoxious assholes in it doesn't give him standing to piss all over the rest of it.
Well said
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#39 Post by Arv R »

How terrible. Makes me even more resolute in only patronizing restaurants that allow corkage so that this cruelty is not perpetrated.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#40 Post by DanielP »

Arv R wrote: October 31st, 2020, 10:41 am How terrible. Makes me even more resolute in only patronizing restaurants that allow corkage so that this cruelty is not perpetrated.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#41 Post by HoosJustinG »

Marcu$ Stanley wrote: October 31st, 2020, 6:48 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote: October 30th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Director of the Somm films.
Covering his ass...the Somm movies 100% catered to and enabled the egomania of the CMS crowd. He could at least show some self awareness and humility
I don’t know enough about him/Somm movies/CMS to say that I’ll defend him, but I do know how the movie came about in the first place. He was friends with Brian and thought that what he was going through might make an interesting film. He did not set out to glorify the CMS - nor do I think he did that in the movie. He simply found the hard work that somebody (later multiple people) were going through to be interesting and worthy of documenting. AFAIK, none of the “main” cast of Somm — Brian, Ian, DLynn, Dustin, etc — are in any way implicated.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#42 Post by Mel Knox »

I feel sorry for those who have worked hard to achieve the MS distinction. Folks who have become MSs honestly (oops, did I bring up another scandal??) will suffer. Unless the CMS straightens up and learns to fly right, these folks are screwed. Several friends worked really hard for this honor and I imagine they are pretty pissed off.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#43 Post by Victor Hong »

Mel Knox wrote: October 31st, 2020, 6:26 pm I feel sorry for those who have worked hard to achieve the MS distinction. Folks who have become MSs honestly (oops, did I bring up another scandal??) will suffer. Unless the CMS straightens up and learns to fly right, these folks are screwed. Several friends worked really hard for this honor and I imagine they are pretty pissed off.
The Grand Pooh-Bahs leading CMS are in control of such damage, but care less about these money-dispensing supplicants than about their female quarry.
And they do not care at all about the latter.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#44 Post by Robert Dentice »

First off on behalf of the victims I feel so angry that we have despicable men like this in society. I applaud their courage to go public with this so it prevents it happening to others.

What I wonder is how is the head of this broken organization employed in a high profile job at Whole Foods / Amazon. How do so many corporations (LVMH), Southern etc. enable them.

Lastly as Keith said there are so many great people in the wine world. Two of them who are members here Arvid Rosengren (winner of the top sommelier competition) and Levi Dalton (only needed to pass service and he would have been an MS) could have easily gotten the MS which brings enormous financial opportunities, decided against it for what I can only surmise are the many issues that organization has.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#45 Post by Robert Dentice »

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#46 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Yet another horrid situation that exposes the unacceptable level of white male bias in American life. It’s disgusting, and makes me very ashamed of people who look just like me. Ugh.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#47 Post by Dennis Borczon »

D@vid Bu3ker wrote: November 1st, 2020, 7:02 am Yet another horrid situation that exposes the unacceptable level of white male bias in American life. It’s disgusting, and makes me very ashamed of people who look just like me. Ugh.
I think referring to this as a racial thing is quite misleading. It is a power thing. Unless you believe that white males are racially predisposed to sexually abusive behavior. It is about discrepancies in power and control issues. The organization obviously lacked sufficient oversight and ethics to police themselves. Looking at the color of their skin is an interesting observation, but not causation. You don't have to be white to be a sex offender. That is what we are talking about here.

I am saddened that even in a beautiful and passionate hobby, there are individuals like this who are "authorities" and role models. The only good thing to possibly come out of this is the recognition that there are perhaps younger, assertive, more self confident young women and men who will be able to stand up for themselves. They should know that the vast majority of society and public opinion will support the value that this behavior is not OK. When they do go public, it helps to send a signal to other potential abusers that they can be held accountable.

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#48 Post by D@vid Bu3ker »

Dennis Borczon wrote: November 1st, 2020, 8:19 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote: November 1st, 2020, 7:02 am Yet another horrid situation that exposes the unacceptable level of white male bias in American life. It’s disgusting, and makes me very ashamed of people who look just like me. Ugh.
I think referring to this as a racial thing is quite misleading. It is a power thing. Unless you believe that white males are racially predisposed to sexually abusive behavior. It is about discrepancies in power and control issues. The organization obviously lacked sufficient oversight and ethics to police themselves. Looking at the color of their skin is an interesting observation, but not causation. You don't have to be white to be a sex offender. That is what we are talking about here.

I am saddened that even in a beautiful and passionate hobby, there are individuals like this who are "authorities" and role models. The only good thing to possibly come out of this is the recognition that there are perhaps younger, assertive, more self confident young women and men who will be able to stand up for themselves. They should know that the vast majority of society and public opinion will support the value that this behavior is not OK. When they do go public, it helps to send a signal to other potential abusers that they can be held accountable.
I think white males are in a dominant position of power. I say that as a white male who is ashamed of too many members of my gender/pigmentation.
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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#49 Post by Jayson Cohen »

Robert Dentice wrote: November 1st, 2020, 6:39 am What a bunch of arrogant aholes...

http://www.alpanasingh.com/blog/2020/10 ... of-silence
Thanks for posting this.

I have other things I’m thinking and want to say about all this, here and elsewhere, but I best keep it semi-private.

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Re: Court of Sommeliers - See you Non-Civils in civil court!

#50 Post by Tim McCracken »

There is a new statement from CMS-A


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