Real winenerd wines

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alan weinberg
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#51 Post by alan weinberg » October 18th, 2020, 9:23 am

Pinot Gouges. A “white” Pinot Noir, as it has lost the color gene.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#52 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 18th, 2020, 9:28 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:14 am
Would Corsican (Corse) wines be a possibility.? I have enjoyed a "regular" Clos Canarelli Corse Figari Blanc and they also make an "Amphora" version which might up the nerd/geek level.
I don't think Corsican wines as a whole are any geekier than any other French wines, but they do make some geeky wines there - like that Amphora wine you mentioned.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#53 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 18th, 2020, 9:29 am

alan weinberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:23 am
Pinot Gouges. A “white” Pinot Noir, as it has lost the color gene.
I.e. Pinot Blanc.

We've had this discussion before. Pinot Gouges is just a distinct clone of Pinot Blanc, but it still is Pinot Blanc.

Edit: although, due to it being a unique clone, IMO it definitely classifies as a geeky wine.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#54 Post by alan weinberg » October 18th, 2020, 9:38 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:29 am
alan weinberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:23 am
Pinot Gouges. A “white” Pinot Noir, as it has lost the color gene.
I.e. Pinot Blanc.

We've had this discussion before. Pinot Gouges is just a distinct clone of Pinot Blanc, but it still is Pinot Blanc.

Edit: although, due to it being a unique clone, IMO it definitely classifies as a geeky wine.
true, but still interesting and true.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#55 Post by Steve Costigan » October 18th, 2020, 9:47 am

Lacrima di Morro d’Alba from the Marche is a really really interesting variety. Introduced to me by Tom Hill. Sort of like an exotic PN flavored with gardenas, or maybe your grandmother’s perfume. Unti makes a good one from dry creek I think.

If I had the space I’d really be exploring orange wines a lot more. Cheers.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#56 Post by Christopher Dunn » October 18th, 2020, 9:52 am

Arjan Stavast wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:53 am
I love my German rieslings and spätburgunders, have 6 vintages of BAMA, absolutely adore sherry and my cellar has quite a few quirky Italians (Granato from Foradori!). So I think I do pretty well on the wine nerd-o-meter and can at times struggle finding anything more “moderate” when entertaining less nerdy folks. Still, I feel there must be more quirky stuff out there...
Do you guys have any suggestions a proper winenerd should definitely try?
Obscure, perhaps, but nothing "nerdy" here. A wine nerd, to me, is someone who overly obsesses on details of wine glass selection and the like.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#57 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » October 18th, 2020, 9:58 am

Domaine Glinavos Paleokerisio Semi-sparkling Orange Wine

Definitely one of the weirdest wines I've ever tasted, and I thought it was good. Also, it's cheap, so not financially painful to try.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#58 Post by mmarcellus » October 18th, 2020, 10:21 am

I hesitate to mention it here, but Alice Feiring's newsletter, and wine club, is a good source for unusual and distinctive wines. She's controversial, but if your palate aligns with hers you'll find plenty to like. You can ask for a sample copy of the newsletter and see what you think. (No relationship other than as a customer)

A smattering of some she has featured that I've found to be distinctive in one way or another:

Pheasant's Tears Mtsvane Amber
Azienda Agricola Monte dei Roari Pinot Grigio Vigne de Nello Tribola
ViteAdOvest Terre Siciliane Rina
Herrera-Alvarado País Oro Negro

And pretty much anything from:
Milan Nestarec (I can't guarantee you'll like it, but I can guarantee it will fit your criteria)
La Garagista (A Vermont winery doing great things with hybrid grapes)
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#59 Post by K N Haque » October 18th, 2020, 10:44 am

Luis Pato's Fernao Pires. A red wine made with 94% white grapes (Ferna Pires aka. Maria Gomes) plus 6% Baga. I know of red wines made with the addition of white grapes of course (N. Rhone and its imitators, plus long ago Chianti) and of course red still wine is added in some Rose champagnes, but I am unaware of another almost wholly white grape wine that ends up red.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#60 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 18th, 2020, 11:48 am

John Morris wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 8:45 am

White Grauburgunder/pinot gris has a touch of pigment, but how on earth do you get something that red? Are the grapes that red?
The grapes can range from pale grayish-white to deep pinkish-red. The former produce coppery skin-contact whites while wines made from the latter produce wines that can be mistaken for deep rosés. Same with Gewürztraminer. Just like Paul, I've had multiple reddish-pink skin-contact PG wines.
Chris Seiber wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:12 pm
I’m not sure if it’s weird enough in the glass, but Koshu Gris from Japan can be really good. It’s a unique Japanese White grape. I’m opening a bottle tonight in fact.
Just to clarify, it's just Koshu. There's no distinct variety called "Koshu Gris". But yes, that particular Gris de Koshu you have there is a nice wine - although, despite its somewhat misleading name, just a normal white wine.
alan weinberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:38 am
true, but still interesting and true.
Not arguing that!
K N Haque wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 10:44 am
Luis Pato's Fernao Pires. A red wine made with 94% white grapes (Ferna Pires aka. Maria Gomes) plus 6% Baga. I know of red wines made with the addition of white grapes of course (N. Rhone and its imitators, plus long ago Chianti) and of course red still wine is added in some Rose champagnes, but I am unaware of another almost wholly white grape wine that ends up red.
I've tasted the wine twice, both times blind. The first time I tasted I managed to baffle the person who brought the wine by venturing a guess: "Is this some sort of lighter Baga?"

I wasn't correct there (well, unsurprisingly, nobody in the tasting guessed a "red wine" would be made from a white variety) but I was commended by being able to pick up the variety responsible of only 6% of the blend.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#61 Post by Arjan Stavast » October 18th, 2020, 1:54 pm

Christopher Dunn wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:52 am

Obscure, perhaps, but nothing "nerdy" here. A wine nerd, to me, is someone who overly obsesses on details of wine glass selection and the like.
Funny as I actually import wine glasses for a living, so I might qualify for the coveted nerd status after all 😀
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#62 Post by GregT » October 18th, 2020, 7:53 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:24 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:08 pm
John Morris wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 2:43 pm


Plus, it has the advantage (to you) that only speakers of a Finno-Ugric language will have any idea how to pronounce it! neener
:D

Well, I'm not entirely sure. Us Finns have the benefit that for the most part we have the same sounds as Hungarian, so compared to English-speakers we might have it easier when it comes to pronouncing Hungarian!

However, we have only umlauts, not the accents that are numerous in Hungarian! Furthermore, the pronunciation rules are very weird to anyone not familiar with Hungarian (including us Finns), so attempting to pronounce Hungarian words without any idea how they should sound will most likely end in a catastrophe (fortunately Furmint and Juhfark are pretty easy compared to many other Hungarian varieties, like Királyleányka or Pécsi Cirfandli). Those who are interested - and if I remember correctly - Hárslevelű was pronounced either like hush-level-oo or hash-level-oo. Or it might be both, depending on which part of Hungary one comes from!

Nevertheless, I find it easier to guess how English words I'm unfamiliar with are pronounced correctly than attempting to get a Hungarian word right at first go! [snort.gif]
Paging the part-Hungarian Greg Tatar!
Hmmm - my father would have known how to pronounce it.

I actually agree that Hárslevelű can be more interesting in some respects. There's a group of wine makers in Tokaj who feel that way too - that it was unfairly designated a second-tier grape and it should be given more respect.

But there are a lot of great grapes over there, and have fun with the pronunciation!

Cserszegi Fűszeres, for example, is a really aromatic white grape that makes a really nicely refreshing wine, although sometimes needs a little more acidity. A lot of times it will have a bit of RS that makes it a crowd-pleasing wine, usually very friendly and not high in alcohol. It has a touch of lychee sometimes, but not to the degree that Gwertz does and the good ones aren't as disappointing as Gwertz often tends to be.

Irsai Olivér too, which is a parent of the Cserszegi, is another of those aromatic grapes that produces an easy -drinking wine. I'm not completely certain, but I think there's some Muscat ancestry there, which accounts for the beautiful aromatics.

Then there's Juhfark, which is grown only in Somló around an old extinct volcano. It's not as aromatic but really truly deserves a wider distribution as it's a very unique grape. It's fairly thin-skinned and perhaps could make a botrytized wine, but I'm not aware of any. But it does possess sufficient acidity to please most anyone, while also having some flavor in addition to the acidity - think sour plums or citrusy fruits.

Of course, if you're over there, these aren't all that unusual. It's only to people outside the country that they're exotic. Much like many things in life I suppose!
G . T a t a r

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#63 Post by Arjan Stavast » October 18th, 2020, 11:59 pm

GregT wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 7:53 pm

Then there's Juhfark, which is grown only in Somló around an old extinct volcano. It's not as aromatic but really truly deserves a wider distribution as it's a very unique grape. It's fairly thin-skinned and perhaps could make a botrytized wine, but I'm not aware of any. But it does possess sufficient acidity to please most anyone, while also having some flavor in addition to the acidity - think sour plums or citrusy fruits.
That sparks a memory of a great article by a guy who spent a week there. It’s on vinography and called Volcano‘s Elixir. No tasting notes but very atmospheric. Thanks GregT, I’ve just ordered a few bottles to try it out!
(edited to correct typo in article name)
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#64 Post by dcornutt » October 19th, 2020, 1:32 am

Robert. Cot = Malbec? I have had the ones from Cahors. They need tons of time to get those incredible tannins tamed. Not at all like the South American version. That Pepiere must be from the Loire somewhere. Any ideas of location? Thanks.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#65 Post by IlkkaL » October 19th, 2020, 1:37 am

Arjan Stavast wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 12:49 pm
IlkkaL wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 12:21 pm
Maybe I live inside a bubble but I don’t consider any of the things you mention all that nerdy really. Almost everything Otto F has ever blinded me with has been way more nerdy. Moravia Agria from Spain? Skin contact field blend of Timorasso, Verdea, Bosco, Riesling and Chasselas from Piemonte? 40yo Cabernet d’Anjou?
[worship.gif] [worship.gif] [worship.gif]
Had a look in my cellar to see if I could find anything even close and can only come up with Arinto dos Acores
champagne.gif

Please note that I have pleaded to Otto to preferably blind me at least every now and then with something that could at least theoretically be recognized (and I also would not oppose to the wines actually tasting good). However to answer your question I can happily suggest that you get to know Savoie's wines (at least whites) a bit. They are mostly affordable, interesting and easy to find online within the EU. The following styles are worth trying:

Roussette de Savoie (and wines from other appellations made with the Altesse grape)
Chignin-Bergeron (made from the Roussanne grape but generally have better acidity and less weight than the Rhône versions, although also bigger versions are also made here)
Chignin (can be red or white, the latter are made from the local Jacquère grape)
Apremont (whites mostly made from Jacquère. Generally bone dry, low ABV with good acidity, Muscadet-esque if you will)
Vin des Allobroges (well, more specifically Domaine des Ardoisières, a really good address for seriously interesting Alpine whites and reds with tons of character)
If Pet-Nats are your thing some really good onea are made within the Bugey-Cerdon appellation which is sometimes considered to be part of Savoie but then some consider Bugey to be a region of its own.

Of course just like everywhere else you should focus on good growers and not buy blindly.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#66 Post by dcornutt » October 19th, 2020, 1:39 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:29 am
alan weinberg wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:23 am
Pinot Gouges. A “white” Pinot Noir, as it has lost the color gene.
I.e. Pinot Blanc.

We've had this discussion before. Pinot Gouges is just a distinct clone of Pinot Blanc, but it still is Pinot Blanc.

Edit: although, due to it being a unique clone, IMO it definitely classifies as a geeky wine.
Pinot blanc is almost genetically identical to pinot noir by DNA? I think the fact that you can find this mutation in an area where pinot noir is predominate is pretty geeky. Also unique. I guess that is the reason that the Gouge family put their name to it. I can't think of another area where you can find pinot blanc or pinot gris distributed amongst its parent, pinot noir.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#67 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 19th, 2020, 2:58 am

dcornutt wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:39 am
Pinot blanc is almost genetically identical to pinot noir by DNA? I think the fact that you can find this mutation in an area where pinot noir is predominate is pretty geeky. Also unique. I guess that is the reason that the Gouge family put their name to it. I can't think of another area where you can find pinot blanc or pinot gris distributed amongst its parent, pinot noir.
If you can't think of another area where Pinot Blanc or Pinot Gris would be planted alongside Pinot Noir doesn't mean such places don't exist. There are several other vineyards in Burgundy where small amounts of Pinot Blanc is planted, although Pinot Gris seems to be less common. However, for example Alsace and the Aube region in Champagne are classic examples of French regions where Pinot Noir, Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris grow side-by-side. Also you can find all those varieties growing in Alto Adige and throughout Germany. Nothing geeky in that.

And yes, Pinot Blanc, Pinot Noir, Pinot Gris and Pinot Meunier are all virtually identical to each other from a genetic point of view.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#68 Post by Arjan Stavast » October 19th, 2020, 3:06 am

IlkkaL wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:37 am
Arjan Stavast wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 12:49 pm
IlkkaL wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 12:21 pm
Maybe I live inside a bubble but I don’t consider any of the things you mention all that nerdy really. Almost everything Otto F has ever blinded me with has been way more nerdy. Moravia Agria from Spain? Skin contact field blend of Timorasso, Verdea, Bosco, Riesling and Chasselas from Piemonte? 40yo Cabernet d’Anjou?
[worship.gif] [worship.gif] [worship.gif]
Had a look in my cellar to see if I could find anything even close and can only come up with Arinto dos Acores
champagne.gif

Please note that I have pleaded to Otto to preferably blind me at least every now and then with something that could at least theoretically be recognized (and I also would not oppose to the wines actually tasting good). However to answer your question I can happily suggest that you get to know Savoie's wines (at least whites) a bit. They are mostly affordable, interesting and easy to find online within the EU. The following styles are worth trying:

Roussette de Savoie (and wines from other appellations made with the Altesse grape)
Chignin-Bergeron (made from the Roussanne grape but generally have better acidity and less weight than the Rhône versions, although also bigger versions are also made here)
Chignin (can be red or white, the latter are made from the local Jacquère grape)
Apremont (whites mostly made from Jacquère. Generally bone dry, low ABV with good acidity, Muscadet-esque if you will)
Vin des Allobroges (well, more specifically Domaine des Ardoisières, a really good address for seriously interesting Alpine whites and reds with tons of character)
If Pet-Nats are your thing some really good onea are made within the Bugey-Cerdon appellation which is sometimes considered to be part of Savoie but then some consider Bugey to be a region of its own.

Of course just like everywhere else you should focus on good growers and not buy blindly.
Thanks for the tips! Have ordered some domaine des Ardoisières to try it out. Will let you know my degree of enthusiasm when tasting 😀
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#69 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 19th, 2020, 3:19 am

dcornutt wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:32 am
Robert. Cot = Malbec? I have had the ones from Cahors. They need tons of time to get those incredible tannins tamed. Not at all like the South American version. That Pepiere must be from the Loire somewhere. Any ideas of location? Thanks.
Yes, Malbec, but from Loire. Love a good one from Cahors, but yea, definitely need time. Not a fan of the South American ones that I have tried.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#70 Post by IlkkaL » October 19th, 2020, 4:01 am

Arjan Stavast wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:06 am

Thanks for the tips! Have ordered some domaine des Ardoisières to try it out. Will let you know my degree of enthusiasm when tasting 😀
Cool, looking forward to your note. It's been a while since I had their wines but I've enjoyed them in both colors.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#71 Post by Jim Stewart » October 19th, 2020, 5:14 am

[good.gif]
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:22 am

I ordered some of the Cot from Chambers, looking forward to trying it!

cot pepiere.jpg
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#72 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 19th, 2020, 6:06 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 5:14 am
[good.gif]
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:22 am

I ordered some of the Cot from Chambers, looking forward to trying it!


cot pepiere.jpg
Le cot au vin!

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#73 Post by Julian Marshall » October 19th, 2020, 6:07 am

One of the leading French producers for nerds is Robert Plageoles - his entire production consists I think of wines made with local grapes which have disappeared (or nearly) elsewhere. I've only tried the Prunelart red, which I liked, and the Ondenc white, which I loved.
https://www.vins-plageoles.com/nos-vins/

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#74 Post by Jay Miller » October 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

2 pages and no mention of pineau d'aunis or menu pineau? Shame!
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#75 Post by Mike Grammer » October 19th, 2020, 7:09 am

I'm sure everyone was leaving the field clear for you to chime in, Jay ;)

Chris, I'm glad you enjoyed the Koshu. I've only had one---4 years ago, from Bernard Magrez' project there:

"2010 Magrez-Aruga Koshu Isehara

So the thing is, when I was in Bordeaux in 2014 and visiting at Pape Clement, they had this on the shelf. I absolutely had to grab a bottle and it cemented my decision to have a “Final Frontiers” table. Koshu is the traditional Japanese grape. Read on, brave souls. The nose reminds me a bit of leeks and there’s also a scented soap thing here mixed with some lemongrass. Not offensive, just interesting. But on the palate, well now. Very flowery—almost liquid potpourri---drinking this cold is a must and it’ll never be mistaken for Grand Cru burg, but it is fresh and giving in its own gentle way. In fact, later, it’s orange blossom and orange….and a dead ringer for a Muskat."


Not ultra-nerdy, but Uruguayan Tannat?
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#76 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 19th, 2020, 8:00 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:07 am
One of the leading French producers for nerds is Robert Plageoles - his entire production consists I think of wines made with local grapes which have disappeared (or nearly) elsewhere. I've only tried the Prunelart red, which I liked, and the Ondenc white, which I loved.
https://www.vins-plageoles.com/nos-vins/
A little while ago I arranged a SW France tasting where I had couple of those Plageoles wines (including that Prunelart). Good and quite nerdy wines. And Plageoles is not the only one - Domaine d'Escausses has also a range full of varietal wines made of obscure, endangered local varieties.
Jay Miller wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:20 am
2 pages and no mention of pineau d'aunis or menu pineau? Shame!
A great point! Two of the great geeky Loire varieties! I think Romorantin fits this group perfectly, too.
Mike Grammer wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:09 am
I'm sure everyone was leaving the field clear for you to chime in, Jay ;)

Chris, I'm glad you enjoyed the Koshu. I've only had one---4 years ago, from Bernard Magrez' project there:

"2010 Magrez-Aruga Koshu Isehara

So the thing is, when I was in Bordeaux in 2014 and visiting at Pape Clement, they had this on the shelf. I absolutely had to grab a bottle and it cemented my decision to have a “Final Frontiers” table. Koshu is the traditional Japanese grape. Read on, brave souls. The nose reminds me a bit of leeks and there’s also a scented soap thing here mixed with some lemongrass. Not offensive, just interesting. But on the palate, well now. Very flowery—almost liquid potpourri---drinking this cold is a must and it’ll never be mistaken for Grand Cru burg, but it is fresh and giving in its own gentle way. In fact, later, it’s orange blossom and orange….and a dead ringer for a Muskat."
I've had that wine as well - although the vintage 2011, not 2010. Of the few dozen Koshus I've had, that might be the lousiest. Which is a surprise, since Katsunuma Jozo (the producer of Aruga Branca) makes some of the most spectacular Koshu wines, too. I guess co-operating with Bernard Magrez didn't help with the quality.
Not ultra-nerdy, but Uruguayan Tannat?
Nah. Their country might grant the wines some geek appeal, but it all disappears once the wine hits your palate. At least all the Uruguayan Tannat wines I've had have been very boring new world wines that just happen to be from a country other than Chile or Argentina. Honestly every single French Tannat I've tasted has been better than any of the Uruguayan wines I've had. The same problem has been with most of the Chinese and Thai wines I've had as well.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#77 Post by Max K » October 19th, 2020, 9:12 am

The dry Liatiko from Domaine Economou (Crete) is pretty nerdy. I've only had it once at a local wine bar that direct imports, and haven't found it since. Right now not a single listing on wine-searcher. Definitely worth trying - velvety red reminiscent of good mature village Burgundy on the front end; slightly leaner, more floral and tannic finish that reminded me of Piemonte wines.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#78 Post by MBerto » October 19th, 2020, 9:21 am

Unpopular opinion (for this thread at least): Obscure grapes used in winemaking are usually obscure for good reason.

Please note the used of the adverb "usually" in the preceding sentence.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#79 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 19th, 2020, 9:44 am

Max K wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:12 am
The dry Liatiko from Domaine Economou (Crete) is pretty nerdy. I've only had it once at a local wine bar that direct imports, and haven't found it since. Right now not a single listing on wine-searcher. Definitely worth trying - velvety red reminiscent of good mature village Burgundy on the front end; slightly leaner, more floral and tannic finish that reminded me of Piemonte wines.
Now my nerdy sense is tingling!
MBerto wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:21 am
Unpopular opinion (for this thread at least): Obscure grapes used in winemaking are usually obscure for good reason.

Please note the used of the adverb "usually" in the preceding sentence.
It certainly applies to some varieties. Having tasted some 500 different grape varieties (about 3/4 of them as varietal wines), there's a good deal of varieties that have fallen into obscurity for a good reason - they are just dull, plain and flabby without much character or distinction to them.

However, many varieties have fallen into obscurity because of the difficulty of cultivation or poor yields, not because of their poor quality. These were historically replaced by high-yielding workhorse varieties that churned out tons of boring, insipid wine just because it was easier. Other varieties produced poor wines back then, due to cooler climate, but now things are starting to change on that front. It is only now that so many producers are trying to recover those lost high-quality varieties that can actually produce wines of great distinction. Just for an example: I'm very happy how a small handful of producers have managed to save varieties like Timorasso and Nascetta from extinction, since those varieties can produce much more distinctive white wines than probably any other white variety in Piedmont.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#80 Post by MBerto » October 19th, 2020, 9:49 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:44 am
However, many varieties have fallen into obscurity because of the difficulty of cultivation or poor yields, not because of their poor quality. These were historically replaced by high-yielding workhorse varieties that churned out tons of boring, insipid wine just because it was easier. Other varieties produced poor wines back then, due to cooler climate, but now things are starting to change on that front. It is only now that so many producers are trying to recover those lost high-quality varieties that can actually produce wines of great distinction. Just for an example: I'm very happy how a small handful of producers have managed to save varieties like Timorasso and Nascetta from extinction, since those varieties can produce much more distinctive white wines than probably any other white variety in Piedmont.
Thank you, that's excellent perspective.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#81 Post by M. Meer » October 19th, 2020, 10:42 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:22 am

I ordered some of the Cot from Chambers, looking forward to trying it!
Have you tried Rocher des Violettes?
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#82 Post by Gus Johnson » October 19th, 2020, 12:19 pm

I would add Gabrio Bini's Azienda Agricola Serragghia. If anyone finds themselves touring Sicily, a trip of 2+ days to Pantelleria is a nice diversion. Tasting with Gabrio and his family was a major wine study highlight.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#83 Post by Wes Barton » October 19th, 2020, 1:51 pm

MBerto wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:21 am
Unpopular opinion (for this thread at least): Obscure grapes used in winemaking are usually obscure for good reason.

Please note the used of the adverb "usually" in the preceding sentence.
To add to what Otto said, once treasured grapes fell out of favor for a number of reasons. Difficulty in the vineyard or cellar with no economic reward can lead to easier choices. There are all sorts of changes over time that have nothing to do with quality. We've seen many in our era. The patrons who bought up a certain wine fall out of favor. Preferences and fads. Disease. Urban development.

Some grapes only existed in a small area where they're well suited. Some varieties are new. Some are being found only interplanted with several other varieties.

We're in a new era of understanding and technology. That means we can address vineyard issues better. We can work to preserve aromatics and tame tannins, play around with fermentation and aging techniques and vessels and so forth. We're in an era where people have been exploring obscure grapes and getting the best out of them by understanding them. (We're similarly seeing vast improvements with grapes that never fell out of favor in their regions, but have now become export-worthy.) There are quite a few "obscure" grapes that have wonderful, unique expressions that are now being allowed to shine.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#84 Post by John Morris » October 19th, 2020, 1:55 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:44 am
.... I'm very happy how a small handful of producers have managed to save varieties like Timorasso and Nascetta from extinction, since those varieties can produce much more distinctive white wines than probably any other white variety in Piedmont.
+1

I haven't had a timarasso in a few years, but I've been very taken with the nascettas I've had (e.g., Cogno and Germano).

Arneis was another Piemontese white grape that was almost extinct a few decades ago. There are a lot of bland ones, but in the right hands (e.g., Giacosa and Vietti), it can yield very interesting wines.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#85 Post by Warren Taranow » October 19th, 2020, 2:22 pm

Though I drink mostly old world, I'm going to throw in some California examples. John Enfield's Cabernets are so different that he sometimes even bottles them in a burgundy shaped bottle. Also, Matthew Rorick's Forlorn Hope wines are very geeky.
I agree with Sir Robert's suggestions of Bernard Levet Côte-Rôtie and Marc Plouzeau Chinon Franc de Pied

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#86 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » October 19th, 2020, 2:35 pm

Hey, just thought of another geeky wine - pink Chardonnay! The Chardonnay Rosa clone has maybe 6 Ha planted around the world. I'm aware of 3 around the town of Chardonnay in the Macon, and 3 Ha in Germany. It appears to be a mutation localized to the town of Chardonnay. Tasty geeky.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#87 Post by Bob G » October 19th, 2020, 2:52 pm

And don't overlook Romarantin. An obscure Loire white grape with it's own appellation that can make interesting wines. Try Cazin's Cour-Cheverny Cuvée Renaissance. Only made in the best vintages.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#88 Post by Tomás Costa » October 19th, 2020, 3:04 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 9:44 am
However, many varieties have fallen into obscurity because of the difficulty of cultivation or poor yields, not because of their poor quality.
This is exactly what happened with Touriga Nacional (which seems very unusual today when you think about it). Another situation worth mentioning is that some varieties are excellent additions to blends without making particularly interesting wines by themselves. Arinto, for instance, is a lifesaver in the Alentejo for the way it brings acidity to whites that would otherwise be flabby and overripe (the Arinto and Antão Vaz blend is almost a cliché), but I am not enamored of its 100% varietal expression, if the good people in Bucelas will pardon me. Souzão, up in the Douro, is a standard in port and red wine blends, but its varietal wines are like an exercise in taming a very dangerous wild animal.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#89 Post by MBerto » October 19th, 2020, 3:18 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:51 pm
Some grapes only existed in a small area where they're well suited. Some varieties are new. Some are being found only interplanted with several other varieties.
And yet...no one here has mentioned having a Marquette wine from the Alexandria Lakes AVA.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#90 Post by K N Haque » October 19th, 2020, 3:51 pm

MBerto wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:18 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:51 pm
Some grapes only existed in a small area where they're well suited. Some varieties are new. Some are being found only interplanted with several other varieties.
And yet...no one here has mentioned having a Marquette wine from the Alexandria Lakes AVA.
Yes, but Marquette is a hybrid grape of vitis vinifera and vitis riparia. Almost everything here (probably everything) is vinifera only. If we are talking hybrid grapes, I go with La Garagista's wine out of Vermont, but I think that is probably a different thread.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#91 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 19th, 2020, 4:08 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:55 pm
I haven't had a timarasso in a few years, but I've been very taken with the nascettas I've had (e.g., Cogno and Germano).

Arneis was another Piemontese white grape that was almost extinct a few decades ago. There are a lot of bland ones, but in the right hands (e.g., Giacosa and Vietti), it can yield very interesting wines.
It's crazy to think varieties like Arneis (or even something as popular as Viognier) were almost extinct only a few decades ago - seeing how much is produced today.

Yet I think that even at its best, Arneis isn't as great as the best Timorasso and Nascetta wines. Nevertheless, great Arneis wines can be still beautiful white wines with a lot of charm and personality. And Vietti's Arneis was actually the wine that originally turned me to Piedmontese whites - before that, I was only familiar with the reds (and, of course, the fizzy Moscatos).
Bob G wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:52 pm
And don't overlook Romarantin. An obscure Loire white grape with it's own appellation that can make interesting wines. Try Cazin's Cour-Cheverny Cuvée Renaissance. Only made in the best vintages.
Lol I just mentioned it like 10 posts ago. [tease.gif]
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:04 pm
This is exactly what happened with Touriga Nacional (which seems very unusual today when you think about it). Another situation worth mentioning is that some varieties are excellent additions to blends without making particularly interesting wines by themselves. Arinto, for instance, is a lifesaver in the Alentejo for the way it brings acidity to whites that would otherwise be flabby and overripe (the Arinto and Antão Vaz blend is almost a cliché), but I am not enamored of its 100% varietal expression, if the good people in Bucelas will pardon me. Souzão, up in the Douro, is a standard in port and red wine blends, but its varietal wines are like an exercise in taming a very dangerous wild animal.
I love Arinto myself, although I've had all too few varietal examples of the variety to have a full picture of it. Nevertheless, most of the Bucelas whites have been very lovely, not unlike Portuguese take on Muscadet or Txakoli. Tons of minerality and salinity.

Souzão is definitely a superb variety. Tons of acidity and quite ample tannins with ridiculously concentrated, inky color. The red wines from Minho often show a beautiful combination of fresh, crunchy fruit, surprisingly light and delicate body and a huge wall of tannins - and it all works! Your wild animal metaphor really is apt.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#92 Post by M. Meer » October 19th, 2020, 4:47 pm

That reminds me... If it's not in the application, it might not exist
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#93 Post by J Dove » October 19th, 2020, 4:51 pm

Where’s Robert Callaghan when you need him?
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#94 Post by Wes Barton » October 19th, 2020, 8:34 pm

K N Haque wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:51 pm
MBerto wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:18 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:51 pm
Some grapes only existed in a small area where they're well suited. Some varieties are new. Some are being found only interplanted with several other varieties.
And yet...no one here has mentioned having a Marquette wine from the Alexandria Lakes AVA.
Yes, but Marquette is a hybrid grape of vitis vinifera and vitis riparia. Almost everything here (probably everything) is vinifera only. If we are talking hybrid grapes, I go with La Garagista's wine out of Vermont, but I think that is probably a different thread.
I could write a very long post, if I got into everything. I did have American hybrids in mind as part of the "new", which is a relative term. I did a co-eyes-wide-open blind tasting of mostly obscure grapes for a group of ours, with the Terra Vox winemaker. Those are American hybrids, developed in reaction to phylloxera, then mostly abandoned. Very diverse and unique grapes. Fascinating floral and sometime perfumey aromatics on many. We arranged the wines into 5 flights, by weight along with a bunch of Harrington wines I selected, including grapes like Corvina, Trousseau, Alvarelhao. Lots of fun.

A "new" cross I found to play with is Black Muscat. I'd had some fortified versions. I went dry. The guy I buy it from said he sometime makes a sweet sparkling. Interesting that the grape is a dead ringer for Brachetto, which is traditionally used for sweet sparkling (like a red Muscato d'Asti), but now a few are going dry.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#95 Post by Jay Miller » October 20th, 2020, 5:01 am

J Dove wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 4:51 pm
Where’s Robert Callahan when you need him?
Back in those days chenin and Loire cab franc were considered winenerd wines. For that matter, so was Burgundy.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#96 Post by David Glasser » October 20th, 2020, 8:30 am

Wes Barton wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 8:34 pm
K N Haque wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:51 pm
MBerto wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:18 pm


And yet...no one here has mentioned having a Marquette wine from the Alexandria Lakes AVA.
Yes, but Marquette is a hybrid grape of vitis vinifera and vitis riparia. Almost everything here (probably everything) is vinifera only. If we are talking hybrid grapes, I go with La Garagista's wine out of Vermont, but I think that is probably a different thread.
I could write a very long post, if I got into everything. I did have American hybrids in mind as part of the "new", which is a relative term. I did a co-eyes-wide-open blind tasting of mostly obscure grapes for a group of ours, with the Terra Vox winemaker. Those are American hybrids, developed in reaction to phylloxera, then mostly abandoned. Very diverse and unique grapes. Fascinating floral and sometime perfumey aromatics on many. We arranged the wines into 5 flights, by weight along with a bunch of Harrington wines I selected, including grapes like Corvina, Trousseau, Alvarelhao. Lots of fun.

A "new" cross I found to play with is Black Muscat. I'd had some fortified versions. I went dry. The guy I buy it from said he sometime makes a sweet sparkling. Interesting that the grape is a dead ringer for Brachetto, which is traditionally used for sweet sparkling (like a red Muscato d'Asti), but now a few are going dry.
I think Ca' Togni is Black Muscat. An interesting sweet red, but can’t me too nerdy if I’ve had it.

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#97 Post by Wes Barton » October 20th, 2020, 1:57 pm

David Glasser wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:30 am
I think Ca' Togni is Black Muscat. An interesting sweet red, but can’t me too nerdy if I’ve had it.
It is. Haven't had it, but looking to try. Elysium by Quady is easy to find. The one I tried a few years ago caught the aromatics really well. My decades old recollection was those being heavier, darker, less aromatic. This one sort of danced.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#98 Post by Rob_S » October 20th, 2020, 2:17 pm

Outside of the obvious wine nerd wines like some above or things like Radikon I'd add things like:
Duval-Leroy's Petit Meslier One of the very very few champagnes with Petit Meslier and I think the only one that is 100%

Chateau Simon - both the white, rose and red. the White is Clairette, Grenache Blanc, Ugni Blanc, Bourboulenc, Muscat Blanc, Picpoul, Furmint and Sémillon. The Red and Rose is Grenache, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Syrah, Carignan, Cabernet Sauvignon, Castet, Manosquin, Théoulier, Tibouren, Picpoul Noir and Muscat de Hambourg.
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Re: Real winenerd wines

#99 Post by Otto Forsberg » October 20th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Rob_S wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 2:17 pm
Outside of the obvious wine nerd wines like some above or things like Radikon I'd add things like:
Duval-Leroy's Petit Meslier One of the very very few champagnes with Petit Meslier and I think the only one that is 100%

Chateau Simon - both the white, rose and red. the White is Clairette, Grenache Blanc, Ugni Blanc, Bourboulenc, Muscat Blanc, Picpoul, Furmint and Sémillon. The Red and Rose is Grenache, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Syrah, Carignan, Cabernet Sauvignon, Castet, Manosquin, Théoulier, Tibouren, Picpoul Noir and Muscat de Hambourg.
I assume you meant Château Simone? If you did, then I have both - red Simone and Duval-Leroy Petit Meslier - in my cellar. No surprises there, I suppose. [gen_fro.gif]

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Re: Real winenerd wines

#100 Post by Wes Barton » October 20th, 2020, 5:42 pm

Rob_S wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 2:17 pm
Outside of the obvious wine nerd wines like some above or things like Radikon I'd add things like:
Duval-Leroy's Petit Meslier One of the very very few champagnes with Petit Meslier and I think the only one that is 100%

Chateau Simon - both the white, rose and red. the White is Clairette, Grenache Blanc, Ugni Blanc, Bourboulenc, Muscat Blanc, Picpoul, Furmint and Sémillon. The Red and Rose is Grenache, Mourvèdre, Cinsault, Syrah, Carignan, Cabernet Sauvignon, Castet, Manosquin, Théoulier, Tibouren, Picpoul Noir and Muscat de Hambourg.
Interesting - That's one of the many many names for Black Muscat. I've seen that there's some of it planted in many regions in many countries across Europe, where it seems to be useful as a minor field blend component. I'd like to track down and try some, so it's nice to see one here. Would like to try good varietal examples of Castets and Picpoul Noir, too.
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