The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

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Jayson Cohen
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#51 Post by Jayson Cohen » October 17th, 2020, 11:28 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 10:52 am
I am really puzzled by this thread. The three criteria are 1) you can buy 3-5 cases of it, 2) it tastes good young, and 3) it's under $100. But then we're told basically to set aside category 3, the point is to talk about good drinkers without price constraint being an issue. Frankly that means you can also set aside category 1, since there really aren't many Burgundies south of the trophy level that you can't buy 3-5 cases of if you're willing to shop around and pay market rate for them (though why anybody would want to drink 60 bottles of the same wine in a year is a mystery to me). So all we're left with then, is "Burgundies that taste good young" - is that it?
To summarize: this is now another “name your favorite Burgundies under $200” thread.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#52 Post by Alex Valdes » October 17th, 2020, 11:30 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:28 am
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 10:52 am
I am really puzzled by this thread. The three criteria are 1) you can buy 3-5 cases of it, 2) it tastes good young, and 3) it's under $100. But then we're told basically to set aside category 3, the point is to talk about good drinkers without price constraint being an issue. Frankly that means you can also set aside category 1, since there really aren't many Burgundies south of the trophy level that you can't buy 3-5 cases of if you're willing to shop around and pay market rate for them (though why anybody would want to drink 60 bottles of the same wine in a year is a mystery to me). So all we're left with then, is "Burgundies that taste good young" - is that it?
To summarize: this is now another “name your favorite Burgundies under $200” thread.
Much punchier than my original question

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#53 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 17th, 2020, 11:42 am

I understand the thrust of his question which is a little different than what’s been posed.

There are certain $100-200 burgs that are clearly for the cellar. Some examples would be lafarge, barthod, Angerville, and obviously others. I took the question to be what are reasonably easy to source burgs that are accessible now (for those who like early drinking) in a relatively broad price range. Also, I took them as being things you would drink on a weekday. I’d open any of those wines on a weekday and not even think about it. I’m not sure I’d open Hudelot Clos vougeot on a weekday without a thought, even if it’s technically within the $200 price point.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#54 Post by Alex Valdes » October 17th, 2020, 11:46 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:42 am
I understand the thrust of his question which is a little different than what’s been posed.

There are certain $100-200 burgs that are clearly for the cellar. Some examples would be lafarge, barthod, Angerville, and obviously others. I took the question to be what are reasonably easy to source burgs that are accessible now (for those who like early drinking) in a relatively broad price range. Also, I took them as being things you would drink on a weekday. I’d open any of those wines on a weekday and not even think about it. I’m not sure I’d open Hudelot Clos vougeot on a weekday without a thought, even if it’s technically within the $200 price point.
Yes this is what I was getting at. Thanks Michael.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#55 Post by Jayson Cohen » October 17th, 2020, 12:05 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:46 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:42 am
I understand the thrust of his question which is a little different than what’s been posed.

There are certain $100-200 burgs that are clearly for the cellar. Some examples would be lafarge, barthod, Angerville, and obviously others. I took the question to be what are reasonably easy to source burgs that are accessible now (for those who like early drinking) in a relatively broad price range. Also, I took them as being things you would drink on a weekday. I’d open any of those wines on a weekday and not even think about it. I’m not sure I’d open Hudelot Clos vougeot on a weekday without a thought, even if it’s technically within the $200 price point.
Yes this is what I was getting at. Thanks Michael.
I picked up a beautiful 2017 Sylvain Pataille Bourgogne 2 weeks ago and shared with a few geeks (socially distanced of course). I think it was around $35. A wine to buy by the case. If you can find it.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#56 Post by Tomás Costa » October 17th, 2020, 1:35 pm

I'd like to add a twist, or variation, to the original question: keeping it under $100, which of these wines would you also be interested in cellaring and see them develop over a number of years, despite the fact that they are drinking well young?
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#57 Post by jason stein » October 17th, 2020, 1:40 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:35 pm
I'd like to add a twist, or variation, to the original question: keeping it under $100, which of these wines would you also be interested in cellaring and see them develop over a number of years, despite the fact that they are drinking well young?
My answer is still Fourrier Gevrey VV/Aux Ech (as I have discussed with you!). Have a 2002 Aux Ech I’m looking forward to trying soon.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#58 Post by J. Cohen » October 17th, 2020, 1:41 pm

Alex, I’ll second Marc Roy Gevre for Red.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#59 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:35 pm
I'd like to add a twist, or variation, to the original question: keeping it under $100, which of these wines would you also be interested in cellaring and see them develop over a number of years, despite the fact that they are drinking well young?
Basically anything on my list will likely be interesting with bottle age.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#60 Post by PCLIN » October 18th, 2020, 1:12 am

Added #6. Grivot La Combe d’Orveau, outstanding CM village.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#61 Post by JWalter » October 18th, 2020, 7:03 pm

jason stein wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:40 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:35 pm
?
My answer is still Fourrier Gevrey VV/Aux Ech (as I have discussed with you!). Have a 2002 Aux Ech I’m looking forward to trying soon.
What is the difference between the VV and Aux? Had the 2017 VV and it was awesome, and they seem to be in the same price range. Any thoughts or preferences between the two?

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#62 Post by jason stein » October 18th, 2020, 7:37 pm

JWalter wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 7:03 pm
jason stein wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:40 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 1:35 pm
?
My answer is still Fourrier Gevrey VV/Aux Ech (as I have discussed with you!). Have a 2002 Aux Ech I’m looking forward to trying soon.
What is the difference between the VV and Aux? Had the 2017 VV and it was awesome, and they seem to be in the same price range. Any thoughts or preferences between the two?
They’re different parcels. Aux Echezeaux comes from the namesake lieu-dit, and the Gevrey VV comes mostly from Champ Perrière. All old vines. The Gevrey VV tends to be the darker, meatier, denser of the two, and the Aux Echezeaux lighter, more floral, more aromatic. They both have their merits and I enjoy and cellar both.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#63 Post by P L owet » October 18th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:28 am
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 10:52 am
I am really puzzled by this thread. The three criteria are 1) you can buy 3-5 cases of it, 2) it tastes good young, and 3) it's under $100. But then we're told basically to set aside category 3, the point is to talk about good drinkers without price constraint being an issue. Frankly that means you can also set aside category 1, since there really aren't many Burgundies south of the trophy level that you can't buy 3-5 cases of if you're willing to shop around and pay market rate for them (though why anybody would want to drink 60 bottles of the same wine in a year is a mystery to me). So all we're left with then, is "Burgundies that taste good young" - is that it?
To summarize: this is now another “name your favorite Burgundies under $200” thread.
For me, it's another "why I'm buying less Burgundy" thread. [wow.gif]
I'm less and less confident that I will greatly enjoy the burgs that are priced in my comfort zone. And I don't even care about the "taste good young" criterion. I do like some of the suggestions though. [cheers.gif] Too bad I'm more price sensitive than OP.
Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#64 Post by Alex Valdes » October 19th, 2020, 4:12 am

P L owet wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 7:46 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:28 am
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 10:52 am
I am really puzzled by this thread. The three criteria are 1) you can buy 3-5 cases of it, 2) it tastes good young, and 3) it's under $100. But then we're told basically to set aside category 3, the point is to talk about good drinkers without price constraint being an issue. Frankly that means you can also set aside category 1, since there really aren't many Burgundies south of the trophy level that you can't buy 3-5 cases of if you're willing to shop around and pay market rate for them (though why anybody would want to drink 60 bottles of the same wine in a year is a mystery to me). So all we're left with then, is "Burgundies that taste good young" - is that it?
To summarize: this is now another “name your favorite Burgundies under $200” thread.
For me, it's another "why I'm buying less Burgundy" thread. [wow.gif]
I'm less and less confident that I will greatly enjoy the burgs that are priced in my comfort zone. And I don't even care about the "taste good young" criterion. I do like some of the suggestions though. [cheers.gif] Too bad I'm more price sensitive than OP.
Regards,
Peter
Yes the number one criterion for most is price. I am much more price sensitive than assumed but regardless of my personal situation I was looking to expose the space between the two heavily trotted, polar paths of high QPR and trophy wines.

Maybe this topic is less interesting to people, but more and more I see people, people I’m used to seeing drink trophy wines regularly, mixing it up with wines I would put in this middle camp. This piqued my curiosity.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#65 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am

I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#66 Post by Alex Valdes » October 19th, 2020, 11:49 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
Thanks for this synthesis Marcus. It is one of the avenues I was hoping this conversation would go down.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#67 Post by Tomás Costa » October 19th, 2020, 2:49 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
I'm really glad you posted this opinion. Seeing the prices for these village wines, I've often wondered to myself whether they are merely an unbalanced aberration - the consequence of a tide that has raised all boats as far as prices in Burgundy are concerned - or whether they do have a quality of winemaking and a complexity in their profile that justify the investment.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#68 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » October 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:49 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
I'm really glad you posted this opinion. Seeing the prices for these village wines, I've often wondered to myself whether they are merely an unbalanced aberration - the consequence of a tide that has raised all boats as far as prices in Burgundy are concerned - or whether they do have a quality of winemaking and a complexity in their profile that justify the investment.
I had the same question. But after trying a few I do feel like they are an interesting new niche that can be worthwhile, although unfortunately the cost is such that it's tough to make them anything like "daily drinkers" unless you're rich. It's like at their best they are substantial wines, but optimized for charm instead of power. And as I said, on a shorter time horizon they can be the better drink than a higher level, more expensive wine. I guess you could say Bordeaux second wines may be aiming for the same niche, but I have found Burgundy villages to be more interesting, complex, and terroir driven wines in their own right than the second labels, which are more like "worse" versions of the big guys.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#69 Post by Alex Valdes » October 19th, 2020, 3:12 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:49 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
I'm really glad you posted this opinion. Seeing the prices for these village wines, I've often wondered to myself whether they are merely an unbalanced aberration - the consequence of a tide that has raised all boats as far as prices in Burgundy are concerned - or whether they do have a quality of winemaking and a complexity in their profile that justify the investment.
I had the same question. But after trying a few I do feel like they are an interesting new niche that can be worthwhile, although unfortunately the cost is such that it's tough to make them anything like "daily drinkers" unless you're rich. It's like at their best they are substantial wines, but optimized for charm instead of power. And as I said, on a shorter time horizon they can be the better drink than a higher level, more expensive wine. I guess you could say Bordeaux second wines may be aiming for the same niche, but I have found Burgundy villages to be more interesting, complex, and terroir driven wines in their own right than the second labels, which are more like "worse" versions of the big guys.
Yes the cost is high. It is the sense I get from producers that they like these wines a lot to drink regularly. Too bad it’s hard for most of us to do the same.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#70 Post by Tomás Costa » October 19th, 2020, 3:27 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:12 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:49 pm


I'm really glad you posted this opinion. Seeing the prices for these village wines, I've often wondered to myself whether they are merely an unbalanced aberration - the consequence of a tide that has raised all boats as far as prices in Burgundy are concerned - or whether they do have a quality of winemaking and a complexity in their profile that justify the investment.
I had the same question. But after trying a few I do feel like they are an interesting new niche that can be worthwhile, although unfortunately the cost is such that it's tough to make them anything like "daily drinkers" unless you're rich. It's like at their best they are substantial wines, but optimized for charm instead of power. And as I said, on a shorter time horizon they can be the better drink than a higher level, more expensive wine. I guess you could say Bordeaux second wines may be aiming for the same niche, but I have found Burgundy villages to be more interesting, complex, and terroir driven wines in their own right than the second labels, which are more like "worse" versions of the big guys.
Yes the cost is high. It is the sense I get from producers that they like these wines a lot to drink regularly. Too bad it’s hard for most of us to do the same.
I remember having the '14 Rossignol-Trapet Gevrey VV, and thinking to myself how much I'd like to have a case of that wine if only it cost half of what it does. As long as the appellation system keeps linking greater structured wines with low production, we're screwed.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#71 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 19th, 2020, 4:18 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:12 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:49 pm


I'm really glad you posted this opinion. Seeing the prices for these village wines, I've often wondered to myself whether they are merely an unbalanced aberration - the consequence of a tide that has raised all boats as far as prices in Burgundy are concerned - or whether they do have a quality of winemaking and a complexity in their profile that justify the investment.
I had the same question. But after trying a few I do feel like they are an interesting new niche that can be worthwhile, although unfortunately the cost is such that it's tough to make them anything like "daily drinkers" unless you're rich. It's like at their best they are substantial wines, but optimized for charm instead of power. And as I said, on a shorter time horizon they can be the better drink than a higher level, more expensive wine. I guess you could say Bordeaux second wines may be aiming for the same niche, but I have found Burgundy villages to be more interesting, complex, and terroir driven wines in their own right than the second labels, which are more like "worse" versions of the big guys.
Yes the cost is high. It is the sense I get from producers that they like these wines a lot to drink regularly. Too bad it’s hard for most of us to do the same.
These basically are daily drinkers for me. I end up drinking about one bottle every 2 days, which helps. If you're polishing off a bottle a night, certainly that'd be pricier.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#72 Post by Alex Valdes » October 19th, 2020, 4:30 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 4:18 pm
Alex Valdes wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:12 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 3:10 pm


I had the same question. But after trying a few I do feel like they are an interesting new niche that can be worthwhile, although unfortunately the cost is such that it's tough to make them anything like "daily drinkers" unless you're rich. It's like at their best they are substantial wines, but optimized for charm instead of power. And as I said, on a shorter time horizon they can be the better drink than a higher level, more expensive wine. I guess you could say Bordeaux second wines may be aiming for the same niche, but I have found Burgundy villages to be more interesting, complex, and terroir driven wines in their own right than the second labels, which are more like "worse" versions of the big guys.
Yes the cost is high. It is the sense I get from producers that they like these wines a lot to drink regularly. Too bad it’s hard for most of us to do the same.
These basically are daily drinkers for me. I end up drinking about one bottle every 2 days, which helps. If you're polishing off a bottle a night, certainly that'd be pricier.
I am trying to find my sweet spot. I’ve pretty much found it for whites (though will continue to rotate wines through) but haven’t quite found it for reds. I am picking up a couple of the suggestions I haven’t tried

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#73 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 19th, 2020, 7:37 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
Aside from price, what's the niche? Okay, so they fit into a very narrow category of "wines you can spend $200 on that still have some early-drinking charm" but it's not like they're any better now that they're $200 wines than they were not all that long ago when they were $40 wines - you can put any wine in the world in that same niche by cranking up the price 500%. Fairly useless niche to me unless you'd rather spend $200 than $40.

Actually, with few exceptions, I never found village level Burgundy from famous Cote de Nuits producers a good value even when they were closer to $40. Would much rather drink a good Santenay or Savigny producer's 1er crus, for example. For a long time it was un-PC to say this because you had all these big spenders who were stuck with pallet-loads of village wine as the bundled tie-in product to get cheap access to grand crus, so they were personally invested in pretending those wines were more special than they were.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#74 Post by Alex Valdes » October 19th, 2020, 7:52 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:37 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
Aside from price, what's the niche? Okay, so they fit into a very narrow category of "wines you can spend $200 on that still have some early-drinking charm" but it's not like they're any better now that they're $200 wines than they were not all that long ago when they were $40 wines - you can put any wine in the world in that same niche by cranking up the price 500%. Fairly useless niche to me unless you'd rather spend $200 than $40.

Actually, with few exceptions, I never found village level Burgundy from famous Cote de Nuits producers a good value even when they were closer to $40. Would much rather drink a good Santenay or Savigny producer's 1er crus, for example. For a long time it was un-PC to say this because you had all these big spenders who were stuck with pallet-loads of village wine as the bundled tie-in product to get cheap access to grand crus, so they were personally invested in pretending those wines were more special than they were.
For this, price is unimportant. It’s really a question of ability to source and wine accessibility. Before the boom prices were much more compressed, but now prices are stretched so it’s hard to have a conversation ignoring the stretching of prices.

I take your point as: “I don’t care if we are talking $40 or $400 village wine they aren’t really that great; the real gems are the grand crus and, if you plan to drink simpler wine, don’t bother with Cote de Nuit village - drink Santenay.”

Is that what you are saying? If so I am interested in what others think.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#75 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » October 20th, 2020, 8:00 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:37 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
Aside from price, what's the niche? Okay, so they fit into a very narrow category of "wines you can spend $200 on that still have some early-drinking charm" but it's not like they're any better now that they're $200 wines than they were not all that long ago when they were $40 wines - you can put any wine in the world in that same niche by cranking up the price 500%. Fairly useless niche to me unless you'd rather spend $200 than $40.

Actually, with few exceptions, I never found village level Burgundy from famous Cote de Nuits producers a good value even when they were closer to $40. Would much rather drink a good Santenay or Savigny producer's 1er crus, for example. For a long time it was un-PC to say this because you had all these big spenders who were stuck with pallet-loads of village wine as the bundled tie-in product to get cheap access to grand crus, so they were personally invested in pretending those wines were more special than they were.
I can only speak for wines I have had, which are hardly exhaustive. But for me wines like the Grivot Combe d'Orveaux, the Bertheau Chambolle Musigny, and various Geantet-Pansiot Gevrey-Chambertin lieu-dits rewrote what I thought was possible at "village" level. Yes they have inflated in price from $40-50 to $70-80, but they were also significantly better than e.g. the Pavelot Savigny 1ers I have had. I haven't had pallet loads of anything so I'm mostly kind of spitballing.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#76 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:37 pm
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 11:09 am
I feel like village-level Burgundy by good producers is really carving out an entirely new niche in the wine world. These are fairly high-priced wines, equivalent to prestige labels in most other world wine regions, including Bordeaux (where $70-100 will get you a respected classed growth). At the same time, stylistically they are self-consciously "smaller", earlier drinking wines than other Burgundy. You combine these two things, they are simultaneously expected to be very high quality wines, complex, sophisticated, and capable of aging, but also "friendlier" and more accessible wines. It's an interesting niche. Can a wine simultaneously live up to these prices and the producer/village reputation but also be open and accessible? Although I'm not happy about the prices I do feel like when they are done right these wines do fill a need for serious but early-drinking and charming wines. If you are drinking a Burgundy at five or seven years old a good village should be better than a grand cru at three+ times the price.
Aside from price, what's the niche? Okay, so they fit into a very narrow category of "wines you can spend $200 on that still have some early-drinking charm" but it's not like they're any better now that they're $200 wines than they were not all that long ago when they were $40 wines - you can put any wine in the world in that same niche by cranking up the price 500%. Fairly useless niche to me unless you'd rather spend $200 than $40.

Actually, with few exceptions, I never found village level Burgundy from famous Cote de Nuits producers a good value even when they were closer to $40. Would much rather drink a good Santenay or Savigny producer's 1er crus, for example. For a long time it was un-PC to say this because you had all these big spenders who were stuck with pallet-loads of village wine as the bundled tie-in product to get cheap access to grand crus, so they were personally invested in pretending those wines were more special than they were.
With only a few exceptions I would prefer to drink village wines from "higher quality" producers than wines from the Cote de Chalonnaise, Savigny, etc. in many cases because of accessibility, but also because of character. I don't think wines like Roumier CM village are a particularly good value or probably good for a "daily drinker" at the $200 price point but it's still an outstanding wine that will be accessible much sooner than say, a Pavelot or Jadot Savigny Dominode, IMO.

I have had experience with pallet loads of red Burgundy, as Marcus put it, because it's almost exclusively what I drink, along with a little Champagne. I probably have one of the more unbalanced cellars on the forum.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#77 Post by R. Frankel » October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm

I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#78 Post by Tomás Costa » October 20th, 2020, 3:47 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Ordered a case of 2017 Hudelot Noellat Chambolle. This thread has inspired me!
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#79 Post by jason stein » October 20th, 2020, 3:48 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:47 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Ordered a case of 2017 Hudelot Noellat Chambolle. This thread has inspired me!
An excellent choice. Great wine.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#80 Post by Sean S y d n e y » October 20th, 2020, 3:50 pm

For the price, I'd rather drink commune/1er/lieu-dit wines from great Côte de Beaune/Chalonnaise/Mâcon producers than the lower-level Côte de Nuits top-tier offerings.

Yes, of course, I'd love to drink great Nuits producers' entry-level wines as daily drinkers (or even 1-2 per week drinkers). But I just can't afford to, and the pleasure-to-price that the aforementioned non-Nuits producers give is fantastic.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#81 Post by R. Frankel » October 20th, 2020, 3:59 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:47 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Ordered a case of 2017 Hudelot Noellat Chambolle. This thread has inspired me!
It’s this kind of darn WB inspiration that crush my credit card. Tasty tasty inspiration!
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#82 Post by Tomás Costa » October 20th, 2020, 4:01 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:59 pm
Tomás Costa wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:47 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Ordered a case of 2017 Hudelot Noellat Chambolle. This thread has inspired me!
It’s this kind of darn WB inspiration that crush my credit card. Tasty tasty inspiration!
I'm unemployed! That's how bad this is!
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#83 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 20th, 2020, 5:09 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Distant? Savigny is like dead center of the Cote d'Or. We're not talking Rully here. But I agree with you that I'm still happy to drink village wines priced like village wines. The problem is that so many bring to mind the old quote, "There are plenty of good five cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter."

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#84 Post by Craig G » October 20th, 2020, 5:31 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Maybe. If you remember, we had a tasting of 2017s where we had Faiveley Mercurey Clos des Myglands alongside the HN Vosne and Chambolle and Bertheau Chambolle. The Faiveley is right in the same quality range at 70% of the price.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#85 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » October 20th, 2020, 5:32 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:09 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Distant? Savigny is like dead center of the Cote d'Or. We're not talking Rully here.
This is the reason why proper use of commas is important for conveying meaning.

"...or other more distant parts of Burgundy."

versus

"...or other, more distant, parts of Burgundy.
Sort of ITB - my husband imports a small amount of sake and I help out

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#86 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 20th, 2020, 5:45 pm

Tonight, 2017 Jouan GC Aux Echezeaux, spectacular wine.
Last edited by Mich@el Ch@ng on October 20th, 2020, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#87 Post by jason stein » October 20th, 2020, 5:46 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:45 pm
Tonight, 2017 Jouan GC 1er Aux Echezeaux, spectacular wine.
Not to harp on you, but Aux Echezeaux is a village lieu-dit (which actually strengthens the point here!)
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#88 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 20th, 2020, 6:01 pm

jason stein wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:46 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:45 pm
Tonight, 2017 Jouan GC 1er Aux Echezeaux, spectacular wine.
Not to harp on you, but Aux Echezeaux is a village lieu-dit (which actually strengthens the point here!)
right i just noticed that and changed it

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#89 Post by C. Keller » October 20th, 2020, 6:13 pm

I drink more white burgundy than red burgundy

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#90 Post by R. Frankel » October 20th, 2020, 6:47 pm

Craig G wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:31 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Maybe. If you remember, we had a tasting of 2017s where we had Faiveley Mercurey Clos des Myglands alongside the HN Vosne and Chambolle and Bertheau Chambolle. The Faiveley is right in the same quality range at 70% of the price.
Yes, it was a fun tasting. I really like the Faiveley Mercureys, and the 2017 showed quite well. I liked the Hudelot more though. And the Bertheau a lot more.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#91 Post by R. Frankel » October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:09 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Distant? Savigny is like dead center of the Cote d'Or. We're not talking Rully here. But I agree with you that I'm still happy to drink village wines priced like village wines. The problem is that so many bring to mind the old quote, "There are plenty of good five cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter."
Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#92 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:09 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 3:37 pm
I’m with Michael that I’d rather drink village wines from solid producers than 1ers from Santenay, Savigny, or other more distant parts of Burgundy. I do drink both in fact because I like variety, but I find myself enjoying the CdN village wines more. And I’m talking producers like Bertheau, Fourrier, Hudelot-Noellat, Arnoux, Drouhin, Lafarge, Clerget to name more than a few in my cellar. Yes, I’d love to drink more Mugnier, Vogue, Dujac, Roumier, etc. village wines but they have climbed out of my cost comfort zone (or way beyond).
Distant? Savigny is like dead center of the Cote d'Or. We're not talking Rully here. But I agree with you that I'm still happy to drink village wines priced like village wines. The problem is that so many bring to mind the old quote, "There are plenty of good five cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter."
Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
Yeah, which is exactly why I was puzzled by the original ground rules, which were along the lines of "suggest daily drinkers, price irrelevant." Well, okay... but there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#93 Post by Alex Valdes » October 20th, 2020, 7:54 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:09 pm


Distant? Savigny is like dead center of the Cote d'Or. We're not talking Rully here. But I agree with you that I'm still happy to drink village wines priced like village wines. The problem is that so many bring to mind the old quote, "There are plenty of good five cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter."
Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
There are a hundred realistic discussions in other threads on this board where, reasonably, price factors heavily. Those threads essentially center around QPR. That is practical and useful but, by construction, certain wines never really enter the conversation. I wanted to introduce a different framework and see what popped out. I hoped the different framing would change people's perspectives and spur a different selection criteria (even if impractical). If this makes the question uninteresting, ok. Some posts gave me good things to think about so I am satisfied with the results, but would value more inputs from those well versed in the space (like you gentlemen)

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Like what? I am interested to know.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#94 Post by Craig G » October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:54 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Like what? I am interested to know.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#95 Post by R. Frankel » October 20th, 2020, 8:14 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
Yeah, which is exactly why I was puzzled by the original ground rules, which were along the lines of "suggest daily drinkers, price irrelevant." Well, okay... but there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Well not exactly. The original ground rules were pretty clear: What would your daily drinker be among reasonably available Burgs under $100? A perfectly reasonable question. Inevitably will lead to suggestions in the $75-$100 range.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#96 Post by Alex Valdes » October 20th, 2020, 8:24 pm

Craig G wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
Alex Valdes wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:54 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Like what? I am interested to know.
La Tâche is always available.
Even putting aside the fact La Tache blowing through the relaxed pricing bands of a couple hundred dollars, I am curious: are you saying you believe you can source cases of La Tache fairly easily and it would be your wine of choice most days? Say, regularly drinking a La Tache from the past 10 years?

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#97 Post by Alex Valdes » October 20th, 2020, 8:27 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:14 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
Yeah, which is exactly why I was puzzled by the original ground rules, which were along the lines of "suggest daily drinkers, price irrelevant." Well, okay... but there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Well not exactly. The original ground rules were pretty clear: What would your daily drinker be among reasonably available Burgs under $100? A perfectly reasonable question. Inevitably will lead to suggestions in the $75-$100 range.
yes - upon reflection $100 was probably not high enough to shake people up - I think $200 is probably high enough without getting to extreme heights occupied by only a few outliers.

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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#98 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 20th, 2020, 9:10 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:14 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:06 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Price sensitivity is everything in a discussion like this.
Yeah, which is exactly why I was puzzled by the original ground rules, which were along the lines of "suggest daily drinkers, price irrelevant." Well, okay... but there are a lot of things I'd be happy to drink every day if the price were irrelevant.
Well not exactly. The original ground rules were pretty clear: What would your daily drinker be among reasonably available Burgs under $100? A perfectly reasonable question. Inevitably will lead to suggestions in the $75-$100 range.
from the original post:
To be clear, the goal of this question is to remove (in a reasonable way) the number one constraint on most people: price. I am curious, if price were really not the question, but you still had sourcing and cellaring issues, what would you go after?
Two pages in and I'm still finding the exercise less than clear...

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Craig G
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#99 Post by Craig G » October 20th, 2020, 10:06 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:24 pm
Craig G wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
Alex Valdes wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 7:54 pm

Like what? I am interested to know.
La Tâche is always available.
Even putting aside the fact La Tache blowing through the relaxed pricing bands of a couple hundred dollars, I am curious: are you saying you believe you can source cases of La Tache fairly easily and it would be your wine of choice most days? Say, regularly drinking a La Tache from the past 10 years?
You asked Keith what he would drink if price were irrelevant. If I could afford it, sure. La Tâche is available because it is made in reasonable quantity and the secondary price discourages people from drinking it.

Of course I don’t drink it, because my concept of a daily drinker or even weekly drinker can’t be independent of price. The whole question has become fairly absurd.
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Re: The Burgundy (aka $100) Daily / Weekly Drinker

#100 Post by M. Meer » October 20th, 2020, 10:18 pm

Mar.kus

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