Latour 2009 released

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Mark Golodetz
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Latour 2009 released

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 8th, 2020, 9:09 am

Ex chateau. Around $1230 a bottle. Easy pass for me; although the wine is quite good.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#2 Post by NED VALOIS » September 8th, 2020, 9:13 am

OMG !
Me TOO !

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#3 Post by Craig G » September 8th, 2020, 10:14 am

You pikers.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#4 Post by Mel Hill » September 8th, 2020, 11:32 am

hard pass at $1230.00 but considering the offer I just got at $1,200.... [wow.gif]

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#5 Post by Robert Sand » September 8th, 2020, 12:03 pm

1.190 € in Germany in sub.

No thanks -

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#6 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm

Yeah...it is quite greedy. However, it will not be Latour who has to deal with fall out if the wines don’t sell. For me, this is a form of corporate bullying; a monopoly where if you don’t buy at whatever price the chateau decides on, you will lose allocation. So the negotiants end up paying. Engerer is no dummy; he has all the cards, and uses them ruthlessly.

I am curious as to what the chosen negotiants ended up paying, but hopefully they have enough margin that they can sit on the wines for a time.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#7 Post by Tom Reddick » September 8th, 2020, 1:21 pm

Wow. Mark- if memory served this is double the late release price on the 2008, yes?
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#8 Post by crickey » September 8th, 2020, 1:42 pm

The low non-auction price in the US is $1200. So the release is priced around the W-S low. Is there a reason it should be less?
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#9 Post by Jeff Leve » September 8th, 2020, 1:43 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy.
How is it greedy? A quick price check shows this at about the going rate and buyers get perfect storage.

And it’s an incredible vintage for Latour.

I can’t afford it, but others can.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#10 Post by Jeff Leve » September 8th, 2020, 1:45 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:21 pm
Wow. Mark- if memory served this is double the late release price on the 2008, yes?
2009 is a much better wine than 2008. I’m not sure why that’s relevant.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#11 Post by Nicholas C » September 8th, 2020, 1:56 pm

This is only slightly above the price I paid on release in early 2010 from UK merchants. Last Latour I bought en primeur was the 2010. Which I believe was the final release they did before holding back.

Was tempted this am by the mag format that was also released but too much wine buying recently. Personally waiting for the 2016 to be released.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#12 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 8th, 2020, 5:54 pm

You guys clearly have no pull, no baller status like me.

I was offered the 2009 at the very specific bottle price of $1337. Clearly it is the better bottle.

It was supported by 100 points from The Suckles and LPB, but sadly, no black forrest cake. The good news is, she says it’s still a baby that needs time but is drinking well now:
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#13 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 8th, 2020, 5:57 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:43 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy.
How is it greedy? A quick price check shows this at about the going rate and buyers get perfect storage.

And it’s an incredible vintage for Latour.

I can’t afford it, but others can.
When a wine is offered in WineSearcher, it is a limited number of bottles which only a must have buyer will purchase. Along comes a flood of late released Latour, and people prepared to cough up $1200 plus is equally limited. Add the problems caused by COVID, failing economies, and less demand out of China, and you know the wines are going to stick in the pipeline. As I said, Engerer doesn’t give a damn, the wine is sold, and yes, corporate bullying.

I also tasted the 2009. If you are going to base your opinion on absolute quality, then there are plenty of other wines of equal quality at a fraction of the price.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#14 Post by Ian S » September 8th, 2020, 6:01 pm

Why did I bother to open this thread? [swoon.gif] Just another bottle that will never grace my cellar. [head-bang.gif]
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#15 Post by Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » September 8th, 2020, 6:36 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy. However, it will not be Latour who has to deal with fall out if the wines don’t sell. For me, this is a form of corporate bullying; a monopoly where if you don’t buy at whatever price the chateau decides on, you will lose allocation. So the negotiants end up paying. Engerer is no dummy; he has all the cards, and uses them ruthlessly.

I am curious as to what the chosen negotiants ended up paying, but hopefully they have enough margin that they can sit on the wines for a time.
I wouldn’t categorize bundled goods strategies as greedy so much as risky of disproportionate pushback.

Curious: What wines do negocs cover that they otherwise wouldn’t have access to if they declined this allocation?

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#16 Post by Br1an Th0rne » September 8th, 2020, 7:26 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 9:09 am
Ex chateau. Around $1230 a bottle. Easy pass for me; although the wine is quite good.
25% premium over recent auction prices; easy pass at this price.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#17 Post by Nick Gangas » September 8th, 2020, 7:44 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 5:57 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:43 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy.
How is it greedy? A quick price check shows this at about the going rate and buyers get perfect storage.

And it’s an incredible vintage for Latour.

I can’t afford it, but others can.
When a wine is offered in WineSearcher, it is a limited number of bottles which only a must have buyer will purchase. Along comes a flood of late released Latour, and people prepared to cough up $1200 plus is equally limited. Add the problems caused by COVID, failing economies, and less demand out of China, and you know the wines are going to stick in the pipeline. As I said, Engerer doesn’t give a damn, the wine is sold, and yes, corporate bullying.

I also tasted the 2009. If you are going to base your opinion on absolute quality, then there are plenty of other wines of equal quality at a fraction of the price.
I always call low WS price the number at which it doesn't sell.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#18 Post by Tom Reddick » September 8th, 2020, 11:11 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:45 pm
Tom Reddick wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:21 pm
Wow. Mark- if memory served this is double the late release price on the 2008, yes?
2009 is a much better wine than 2008. I’m not sure why that’s relevant.
Hi Jeff,

Just double checking from a geeky data standpoint. There is still some 2008 Latour in the open market for $700ish, but my recollection is that it first came out about $600 in the initial secondary offering stage at which we are seeing the 2009 now.

From a market perspective, it is actually a pretty attractive price, difficult as it that is to imagine for many of us (including me!) 2009 Latour does not come to auction very often considering it is very much an A-list bottle. This retail price is not far off from the few recent auction prices out there (less than $100 a bottle variance in two recent NY sales), plus you get the benefit of perfect provenance and the ability to buy in quantity all at once. In this very heated market, and again considering how rarely 2009 Latour comes to auction, I think it will sell quite well at that price.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#19 Post by Andy Sc » September 9th, 2020, 12:05 am

Nicholas C wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 1:56 pm
This is only slightly above the price I paid on release in early 2010 from UK merchants. Last Latour I bought en primeur was the 2010. Which I believe was the final release they did before holding back.
At least the Latour holds its level. Many other 09s (and 10s) are cheaper now than En Primeur (as witnessed again last week, when a Mouton allocation came on the market for 21%/27% below the En Primeur price for the 09/10).

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 5:54 pm
It was supported by 100 points from The Suckles and LPB, but sadly, no black forrest cake. The good news is, she says it’s still a baby that needs time but is drinking well now:
As mentioned in another thread, somebody seems to care a hell lot about critics and scores for implying all the time he doesn’t care about critics and scores. [truce.gif]
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#20 Post by HenryB » September 9th, 2020, 12:58 am

One thing to reflect on this pricing is that it is clearing out a lot of the lower offers quite quickly. BBR, for examlpe, had cheaper Latour 2009 on BBX and that got taken out within minutes of this coming out.

The thing is a lot of these lower offers are relatively shallow, a case here or a case there. If there was a buy buy on 2009 latour, who knows where you'd actually get sustained ability to fulfill orders? Of course that's irrelevant, as there is no sustained purchasing on it right now.

FWIW, BI Wine have 12 bottles of 2009 Latour at £4750/6 right now, if anyone is looking to buy.

I'm sure long term this will be worth the money, but right now, it feels a bit of a hard pass for me. I think they were stuck in a hard place with pricing - they cant reflect the EP 2019 pricing as it'll undermine many EP buyers, but there's probably pressure to release given their library
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#21 Post by Brady Daniels » September 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm

HenryB wrote:
September 9th, 2020, 12:58 am

I'm sure long term this will be worth the money, but right now, it feels a bit of a hard pass for me.
At $1200, I’m not sure it’ll keep up with inflation.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#22 Post by Br1an Th0rne » September 10th, 2020, 5:21 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy. However, it will not be Latour who has to deal with fall out if the wines don’t sell. For me, this is a form of corporate bullying; a monopoly where if you don’t buy at whatever price the chateau decides on, you will lose allocation. So the negotiants end up paying. Engerer is no dummy; he has all the cards, and uses them ruthlessly.

I am curious as to what the chosen negotiants ended up paying, but hopefully they have enough margin that they can sit on the wines
This is only about 12% higher than what the ‘09 Latour sold for En Premieur...10 years ago! Methinks they could have earned orders of magnitude greater than a 12% return over the past ten years. At those prices, Latour should have released all of their ‘09 stocks en primeur. 10 years on, what was the opportunity cost (SP500 has tripled in value) of this strategy? $200 million?

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#23 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 10th, 2020, 6:07 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 5:21 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy. However, it will not be Latour who has to deal with fall out if the wines don’t sell. For me, this is a form of corporate bullying; a monopoly where if you don’t buy at whatever price the chateau decides on, you will lose allocation. So the negotiants end up paying. Engerer is no dummy; he has all the cards, and uses them ruthlessly.

I am curious as to what the chosen negotiants ended up paying, but hopefully they have enough margin that they can sit on the wines
This is only about 12% higher than what the ‘09 Latour sold for En Premieur...10 years ago! Methinks they could have earned orders of magnitude greater than a 12% return over the past ten years. At those prices, Latour should have released all of their ‘09 stocks en primeur. 10 years on, what was the opportunity cost (SP500 has tripled in value) of this strategy? $200 million?
Things have changed a little since the early Summer of 2010, which was the height of Chinese buying in Bordeaux. Prices were rising in the secondary market, and the estates were pushing limits to see how high prices could go. Never mind that the Chinese were not buying futures at the time, this was the first great Bordeaux vintage since 2005, the pressure to buy was palpable.The market was challenged and it took around five or six years before the 2009s were sold through, in fact there was a report a couple of years ago about how high stock levels were of 2009/2010, but that could well be attributed to negotiants holding onto stock.

Compare that to what we have now; a glut of great vintages, 2014/15/16/18 and 19, with 2020 just picked being talked about in hushed tones of delight. Six vintages, no less. And Lafite can be purchased for far less than this Latour, even the 2018 with its special label.

The Chinese market is stagnant, and although there has been some fine wine buying, it does not seem to have affected this part of the market much, if at all.

Personally, I liked Latour, gave it a 96-98, but it was not in my top five wines of the vintage. I can buy Lafite from any one current vintage for around half. So I am kind of curious as to why I would spend money on a Latour from a fine vintage, but in my book, certainly equaled by most of the current first growths at a premium?
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#24 Post by Andy Sc » September 10th, 2020, 8:00 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:07 am
Personally, I liked Latour, gave it a 96-98, but it was not in my top five wines of the vintage. I can buy Lafite from any one current vintage for around half. So I am kind of curious as to why I would spend money on a Latour from a fine vintage, but in my book, certainly equaled by most of the current first growths at a premium?
I'm with you. There are just other options in the vintage, that are equal in quality (or better) at a lower price. Of course, if money is no object, I would buy it. Re quality: On Cellartracker, it holds #1 spot (average rating) in the vintage, although from only a handful of reviews. I had an extensive 60+ 2009s tasting last year (all blind) and it was certainly one of the top wines (although not yet close to being ready) and ended up on a shared 6th rank (together with other wines I scored 95), behind Margaux, Palmer, Mouton, Cheval, Hosanna and VCC (all 96 to 99). Our group ranked it on a shared 7th rank together with Hosanna, Petrus and SHL (tops were Palmer, Cheval, Margaux, Mouton, VCC, Lafleur in that order).
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#25 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » September 10th, 2020, 8:59 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 5:57 pm


I also tasted the 2009. If you are going to base your opinion on absolute quality, then there are plenty of other wines of equal quality at a fraction of the price.
Isn't this sort of always part of the deal for first growth Bordeaux? You are paying for name and prestige in addition to pure quality. There are many wines qualitatively equal to the greatest wines in the world available at $300 a bottle or less, but first growths basically never sell for less than $400-$500 a bottle even in off vintages.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#26 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 10th, 2020, 9:46 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:59 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 5:57 pm


I also tasted the 2009. If you are going to base your opinion on absolute quality, then there are plenty of other wines of equal quality at a fraction of the price.
Isn't this sort of always part of the deal for first growth Bordeaux? You are paying for name and prestige in addition to pure quality. There are many wines qualitatively equal to the greatest wines in the world available at $300 a bottle or less, but first growths basically never sell for less than $400-$500 a bottle even in off vintages.
Yes. I was responding to Jeff Leve’s post that it was such an incredible vintage for Latour. It was certainly a very good wine, but not the best wine at Primeur. In fact, for me the vintage character eclipsed a little bit the purity that a great Latour has.

I even decided to compare like with like, Latour against the other First Growths, but if we are talking super seconds, there were plenty of wines I scored at the same level or better. Latour, by its very presence on a table, has ancillary benefits, but they are the the same benefits that Lafite, Margaux etc has. So for me, this is an overpriced offering, an easy pass, and tone deaf in these times.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#27 Post by Jeff D a v i e s » September 10th, 2020, 6:27 pm

I thought about this for a few min (buying a few bottles) but quickly came to my senses.

Just curious Mark - what other '09's did you like better or do you think are equal but better values? (I have a six pack of VCC if that is one)

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#28 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 10th, 2020, 6:55 pm

Margaux, Montrose, VCC, Trotanoy, Cheval. Mouton was also fine, but pales alongside the magnificent 2016. Also great were Petrus and Lafleur, but perhaps not better values.

The incredible buy of this vintage was Haut Bailly.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#29 Post by Jeff D a v i e s » September 10th, 2020, 7:41 pm

Thanks... I have the Montrose (and Pichon Baron and Conseilliente, and then a bunch of more mid level ones). Will watch for opportunities to backfill on a few of the others. Cheers

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#30 Post by Craig G » September 10th, 2020, 7:45 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:55 pm
The incredible buy of this vintage was Haut Bailly.
Not anymore :-)
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#31 Post by Tom Reddick » September 10th, 2020, 10:20 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:07 am
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 5:21 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Yeah...it is quite greedy. However, it will not be Latour who has to deal with fall out if the wines don’t sell. For me, this is a form of corporate bullying; a monopoly where if you don’t buy at whatever price the chateau decides on, you will lose allocation. So the negotiants end up paying. Engerer is no dummy; he has all the cards, and uses them ruthlessly.

I am curious as to what the chosen negotiants ended up paying, but hopefully they have enough margin that they can sit on the wines
This is only about 12% higher than what the ‘09 Latour sold for En Premieur...10 years ago! Methinks they could have earned orders of magnitude greater than a 12% return over the past ten years. At those prices, Latour should have released all of their ‘09 stocks en primeur. 10 years on, what was the opportunity cost (SP500 has tripled in value) of this strategy? $200 million?
Things have changed a little since the early Summer of 2010, which was the height of Chinese buying in Bordeaux. Prices were rising in the secondary market, and the estates were pushing limits to see how high prices could go. Never mind that the Chinese were not buying futures at the time, this was the first great Bordeaux vintage since 2005, the pressure to buy was palpable.The market was challenged and it took around five or six years before the 2009s were sold through, in fact there was a report a couple of years ago about how high stock levels were of 2009/2010, but that could well be attributed to negotiants holding onto stock.

Compare that to what we have now; a glut of great vintages, 2014/15/16/18 and 19, with 2020 just picked being talked about in hushed tones of delight. Six vintages, no less. And Lafite can be purchased for far less than this Latour, even the 2018 with its special label.

The Chinese market is stagnant, and although there has been some fine wine buying, it does not seem to have affected this part of the market much, if at all.

Personally, I liked Latour, gave it a 96-98, but it was not in my top five wines of the vintage. I can buy Lafite from any one current vintage for around half. So I am kind of curious as to why I would spend money on a Latour from a fine vintage, but in my book, certainly equaled by most of the current first growths at a premium?
To both your points, I think what changes matters is the fact Chateau Latour did not participate in the en primeur market starting with the 2012 vintage. If they had been in the market, they would have been forced to adjust their pricing downward significantly and would be in the same position as the other first growths right now.

It was a bold move, and I do not know if it is paying off or not, but it would appear to be so given the fact Latour has not deviated from its current course.

This is the kind of thinking that comes into play when you have a product that can be viably marketed to a wide audience as a luxury branded good. That Latour is a great wine with a storied reputation is a must-have - but now you have a marketplace that is really unprecedented in the entire history of fine wine as we know it. Sure wines of different regions, and wine itself, has had low and high tides of demand over the centuries- but we are at a rare point in history where wealthy individuals worldwide, self-made as well as those of noble class, have a strong interest in wine as a status symbol and investment as well as an enjoyable beverage.

What Latour has done is what a couple of champagne houses have been trying, with limited success, to do in the last few years- and what many luxury goods companies have done for a very long time. Namely, they are taking a further degree of control over distribution in order to sustain a price level that not only makes that strategy viable but also preserves the value of the product for their customers, many of whom are either investing in the wine or at least will take comfort in seeing a sustainable value as well as a certain rarity factor.

Consider the great chateaux of Bordeaux in general for another example of this. If you look back a few decades for comparison you will see that in the last 20-25 years the top chateaux have become more selective in the vineyards at harvest time. Less of the harvest goes into the grand cru bottling. There is less supply. This is why you see such a proliferation of second and third labels now. The simple fact is that you make more money if you make 8,000 bottles of a wine that gets a 98 point score from a trusted critic than if you make 10,000 bottles of that wine with a less stringent selection and risk getting a "mere" 93 or 94 points. Then of course you get the added revenue from second and third label wines with juice that used to be included in the top blend.

Latour is just going a step further with it. As to whether it is viable long term- we shall see. I can tell you that in the world of luxury goods, supply control to meet or not quite meet demand in a given market is a very important consideration. Every year, most of the major luxury fashion houses burn 1,000s of articles of clothing and accessories rather than sell them at a discount. It seems horribly wasteful, and in a way it is, but in the long run that is more profitable than putting things on sale and unintentionally training many of your customers to wait for a sale versus paying full price.

In the case of the Bordeaux chateaux, unlike most of the other top wine makers of the world, ownership at the top levels tends to be a matter of social prestige as well as a money-making enterprise. Owning Chateau Latour is like owning the NY Mets or the Dallas Cowboys. There is a lot of profit potential there, but there is also the social prestige of ownership and the need/desire to maintain the reputation of the brand that equals or excels the need to meet certain profit targets or to ensure annual profit growth. In these circumstances, the norms of running a big business go out the window.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#32 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 11th, 2020, 3:24 am

Tom,
I am absolutely sure it has paid off. Engerer is clever; he went to his late release policy having raised the prices of Les Forts and Latour Paulliac to bring in pretty much the same income as Latour and the other two had originally brought in. This was probably enough to take care of all the costs at the chateau, and now the income from late released Latour is all gravy.

He always struck me as being calculating and quite cold, but nobody can deny his brilliance.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#33 Post by crickey » September 11th, 2020, 5:46 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:07 am
Personally, I liked Latour, gave it a 96-98, but it was not in my top five wines of the vintage. I can buy Lafite from any one current vintage for around half. So I am kind of curious as to why I would spend money on a Latour from a fine vintage, but in my book, certainly equaled by most of the current first growths at a premium?
One counter is that at last year's Farr 10-year retrospective, the Latour not only finished as the highest scoring wine of the vintage, it scored the highest of any wine ever at their 10-year retrospective.

As you haven't really responded to the information that the release price isn't far off recent market activity for this wine, including auctions, it seems your objection boils down to bemusement that buyers would pay so much given the alternatives. I certainly wouldn't, but I'm not the target market for first growth sales. I don't know if $1200-1300 is the market clearing price currently for, let's say, the 500 cases being released, but it seems a little early to accuse Engerer of greed and bullying.

My guess is that the release of the 2010 next year is even higher, given that the market price is higher than for the 2009.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#34 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 11th, 2020, 6:00 am

I thought I had responded quite fully. I was saying it was a completely different market to 2010.

In relative terms; the cost for first growths is basically half that of 2009/2010. In absolute terms, with no Chinese demand, COVID, and relatively little demand for recent vintages, it seems absurdly priced. As for Engerer’s greed, he knows that his distribution are almost obliged to buy at whatever price he comes up with. I am not sure what else you need.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#35 Post by Dan Kravitz » September 13th, 2020, 5:23 pm

This is a toy to be milked, from a financial point of view a footnote buried really deep in corporate reports. I would guess that total revenue from Latour is not remotely 1% of the Pinault group's income. Come on, this is Yves St Laurent, Gucci, Balenciaga. Latour is nothing (unless you happen to like wine).

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#36 Post by Anton D » September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 5:23 pm
This is a toy to be milked, from a financial point of view a footnote buried really deep in corporate reports. I would guess that total revenue from Latour is not remotely 1% of the Pinault group's income. Come on, this is Yves St Laurent, Gucci, Balenciaga. Latour is nothing (unless you happen to like wine).

Dan Kravitz

18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#37 Post by Anton D » September 13th, 2020, 7:12 pm

Their second wine is Les Forts de Latour.

11,000 cases.

132,000 bottles at about 300 a bottle?

Almost 40 million just with that bottle!
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#38 Post by Jeff Leve » September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am

Anton D wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 5:23 pm
This is a toy to be milked, from a financial point of view a footnote buried really deep in corporate reports. I would guess that total revenue from Latour is not remotely 1% of the Pinault group's income. Come on, this is Yves St Laurent, Gucci, Balenciaga. Latour is nothing (unless you happen to like wine).

Dan Kravitz

18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#39 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 14th, 2020, 11:22 am

[whistle.gif]
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am
Anton D wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 5:23 pm
This is a toy to be milked, from a financial point of view a footnote buried really deep in corporate reports. I would guess that total revenue from Latour is not remotely 1% of the Pinault group's income. Come on, this is Yves St Laurent, Gucci, Balenciaga. Latour is nothing (unless you happen to like wine).

Dan Kravitz

18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
You are confusing revenues and profit. As I said the sales of Latour 2009 are almost all profit, as sales of Les Forts and the third wine probably take care of operating costs. I am closer to $800 a bottle ex chateau allowing for usual negotiant and retailer margins, which brings in around $1billion about half of the overall profit LVMH made during the last six months which have plunged thanks to Covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fashionuni ... 850027/amp
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#40 Post by Scott Jameson » September 14th, 2020, 11:50 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:22 am
[whistle.gif]
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am
Anton D wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm


18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
You are confusing revenues and profit. As I said the sales of Latour 2009 are almost all profit, as sales of Les Forts and the third wine probably take care of operating costs. I am closer to $800 a bottle ex chateau allowing for usual negotiant and retailer margins, which brings in around $1billion about half of the overall profit LVMH made during the last six months which have plunged thanks to Covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fashionuni ... 850027/amp
Check your math ... Even at $800 (which seems high given the typical mark ups seen in the 3 tier system), 11000 cases is just over $100 million in revenue. As Dan said, this is mouse nuts when looking at the total revenue of all of Pinault's enterprises.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#41 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 14th, 2020, 1:03 pm

Scott Jameson wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:50 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:22 am
[whistle.gif]
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am


Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
You are confusing revenues and profit. As I said the sales of Latour 2009 are almost all profit, as sales of Les Forts and the third wine probably take care of operating costs. I am closer to $800 a bottle ex chateau allowing for usual negotiant and retailer margins, which brings in around $1billion about half of the overall profit LVMH made during the last six months which have plunged thanks to Covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fashionuni ... 850027/amp
Check your math ... Even at $800 (which seems high given the typical mark ups seen in the 3 tier system), 11000 cases is just over $100 million in revenue. As Dan said, this is mouse nuts when looking at the total revenue of all of Pinault's enterprises.
Yes, arithmetic is way off, threw in an extra 0. Still think $100 million is not to be sneezed at, when others making a loss.

Also, the stores offering the wines are buying directly from the negotiants. No middlemen.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#42 Post by Anton D » September 14th, 2020, 1:06 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am
Anton D wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 5:23 pm
This is a toy to be milked, from a financial point of view a footnote buried really deep in corporate reports. I would guess that total revenue from Latour is not remotely 1% of the Pinault group's income. Come on, this is Yves St Laurent, Gucci, Balenciaga. Latour is nothing (unless you happen to like wine).

Dan Kravitz

18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
The grand vin Chateau Latour normally has an annual production of 18,000 cases. The second wine has an average annual production of 11,000 cases.

Mark posted ex chateau. Around $1230 a bottle. If 800 is closer, still big coin.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#43 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 14th, 2020, 1:42 pm

The ex chateau was about provenance.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#44 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 15th, 2020, 5:30 am

Latour 2009 released ex-chateau
Latour 2009 has been re-released from the cellars of the estate at €860 per bottle ex-negotiant, up 11.7% on the initial release (€770). Chateau Latour left the En Primeur system after the release of 2011 vintage. They had however, been gradually reducing the amount of wine sold En Primeur from the early 2000s in anticipation of their new sales strategy.
From Liv-ex

That is $1023 and change.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#45 Post by Br1an Th0rne » September 15th, 2020, 8:39 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:30 am
Latour 2009 released ex-chateau
Latour 2009 has been re-released from the cellars of the estate at €860 per bottle ex-negotiant, up 11.7% on the initial release (€770). Chateau Latour left the En Primeur system after the release of 2011 vintage. They had however, been gradually reducing the amount of wine sold En Primeur from the early 2000s in anticipation of their new sales strategy.
From Liv-ex

That is $1023 and change.
Latour would have been better off to release all of their 2009 en premieur back in 2010. Those were crazy times, and the first growths were ridiculously priced EP. Would you rather have €860 today or €770 ten years ago? SP500 has tripled during that timeframe.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#46 Post by Jeff Leve » September 15th, 2020, 11:49 am

Anton D wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am
Anton D wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:07 pm


18,000 cases of this wine.

That’s 216,000 bottles.

1,230 bucks per bottle.

Seems like a few bucks.
Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
The grand vin Chateau Latour normally has an annual production of 18,000 cases. The second wine has an average annual production of 11,000 cases.

Mark posted ex chateau. Around $1230 a bottle. If 800 is closer, still big coin.
Where do you get those numbers from ?

You’re wrong. You’re not even close.

As a matter of fact, 2009 at Latour was quite small. Even less than I first posted. The production was only 8,000 cases of the Grand Vin.

Your numbers are wrong as well. Where did you get those ? Latour only receives 50-60% of retail. Still a lot of money. But as I said earlier, it’s a drop in the bucket against their revenue stream.

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Re: Latour 2009 released

#47 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 15th, 2020, 1:02 pm

Jeff,
You always sound a little belligerent when you are disputing facts.

Clearly, Latour is not working on 50-60% of retail. The price is €860 ex negotiant who typically work on a 10% margin. So depending on what you define as retail (I used $1225) it is close to 75% of retail.
Last edited by Mark Golodetz on September 15th, 2020, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#48 Post by crickey » September 15th, 2020, 1:06 pm

They released about 1,000 cases in this latest release. Whatever happened in 2010-11 is water under the bridge. True, even assuming $800 comes to Latour, it's a small pittance in the greater corporate scheme, but like any other large conglomerate, every part, no matter how small, needs to maximize its profit. According to UK sources, the release price represented about a 10% premium to the current UK market price. The underlying assumption in Mark's objection is that the current market price is due primarily to scarcity and limited availability and does not accurately reflect the actual clearing price of 1,000 new cases. No one know yet whether that is true. The UK merchants I checked seem to have sold through. It's still available in the US.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#49 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 15th, 2020, 1:44 pm

I talked to a couple of UK merchants who were not happy at the pricing, and passed.
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Re: Latour 2009 released

#50 Post by Anton D » September 15th, 2020, 2:53 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:49 am
Anton D wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:23 am


Your numbers are way off. Latour produces about 11,000 cases of the Grand Vin each year. The price you’re looking at is retail, not wholesale. Latour gets between 50/60% of retail.

At 50%, if they sold every bottle that is about 70 million dollars. A lot of money. But when you consider that the entire company of Mr. Pinault brings in maybe 18 Billion Dollars a year, it’s a small drop in a very large bucket
The grand vin Chateau Latour normally has an annual production of 18,000 cases. The second wine has an average annual production of 11,000 cases.

Mark posted ex chateau. Around $1230 a bottle. If 800 is closer, still big coin.
Where do you get those numbers from ?

You’re wrong. You’re not even close.

As a matter of fact, 2009 at Latour was quite small. Even less than I first posted. The production was only 8,000 cases of the Grand Vin.

Your numbers are wrong as well. Where did you get those ? Latour only receives 50-60% of retail. Still a lot of money. But as I said earlier, it’s a drop in the bucket against their revenue stream.
Wikipedia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2t ... te-wd-cl-2

https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bo ... ac/latour/

Production of Chateau Latour has been intentionally declining over the years and the quality, concentration and complexity has been increasing, along with the price.

...the 2000 vintage had 15,000 cases were produced.Since that time, production has ranged. For example, in 2003, production was 10,800 cases, 2005 saw 12,000 cases and in 2010 close to 11,000 cases were produced of Chateau Latour."

So, maybe not 18,000.

But, then, 'Wine Investment' says...

Annual Production ​(Grand Vin) 16-18,000 cases

https://www.wineinvestment.com/wine/bor ... au-latour/

Tell you what, you can keep your numbers and we can all chat about the prices. [cheers.gif]
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