TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

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jason stein
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TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#1 Post by jason stein » September 4th, 2020, 2:24 pm

Some on here, including William Kelley, told me either to not open this wine or give it lots of air -- throwing caution to the wind, I went ahead with trying this anyway.

Obviously this is very young, but delightful even now. A dark-fruited nose with a whiff of refined oak. The palate is velvet, the definition of power without weight. Dark, brambly berries intertwine with cocoa powder and spice. With air the aromatics become more intense and the fruit profile turns a bit brighter. Grippy and well-proportioned, this will certainly age for much longer. While I'm glad I tried this bottle now, I will wait to open my next one!
Last edited by jason stein on September 4th, 2020, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#2 Post by RyanC » September 4th, 2020, 2:26 pm

Great note and, yeah, this wine is awesome. M-G killed it in '14.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#3 Post by Howard Cooper » September 4th, 2020, 3:09 pm

M-G kills it virtually every year.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#4 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 4th, 2020, 5:20 pm

Scape and claw for every single bottle I can get, and agonize over every bottle I open.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#5 Post by jason stein » September 4th, 2020, 5:46 pm

RyanC wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:26 pm
Great note and, yeah, this wine is awesome. M-G killed it in '14.
Seems like it! Have the 14 Vosne on deck to try soon as well.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#6 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 4th, 2020, 6:23 pm

jason stein wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 5:46 pm
RyanC wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:26 pm
Great note and, yeah, this wine is awesome. M-G killed it in '14.
Seems like it! Have the 14 Vosne on deck to try soon as well.
Don’t. It has shut down.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#7 Post by Greg K » September 5th, 2020, 11:31 am

jason stein wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:24 pm
Some on here, including William Kelley, told me either to not open this wine or give it lots of air -- throwing caution to the wind, I went ahead with trying this anyway.

Obviously this is very young, but delightful even now. A dark-fruited nose with a whiff of refined oak. The palate is velvet, the definition of power without weight. Dark, brambly berries intertwine with cocoa powder and spice. With air the aromatics become more intense and the fruit profile turns a bit brighter. Grippy and well-proportioned, this will certainly age for much longer. While I'm glad I tried this bottle now, I will wait to open my next one!
Smart people! neener Glad you enjoyed it. Honestly, M-G is one of those producers whose wines are rarely very shut down, so even the 14s are currently drinking well, even when you can tell the wine isn't quite ready yet.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#8 Post by William Kelley » September 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

I'm glad it showed well, and I'm even more glad that you have more bottles to renew the acquaintance down the road! Les Chaignots from this domaine is one of the few remaining great values in pedigreed Côte de Nuits red Burgundy. The 1999 is magical right now. I am actually thinking of doing an article around a vertical tasting of this wine some time, though I hesitate to do so, remembering how happy I was, as a student, that one of the things that I really wanted to buy was actually within my budget.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#9 Post by alan weinberg » September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am

either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#10 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » September 5th, 2020, 11:56 am

alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am
either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .
Envoyer and some other sources had it a bit less then that, but it’s usually more than the VR now.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#11 Post by alan weinberg » September 5th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:56 am
alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am
either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .
Envoyer and some other sources had it a bit less then that, but it’s usually more than the VR now.
yes but w tax and delivery, it’s still about $200.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#12 Post by jason stein » September 5th, 2020, 12:37 pm

Greg K wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:31 am
jason stein wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:24 pm
Some on here, including William Kelley, told me either to not open this wine or give it lots of air -- throwing caution to the wind, I went ahead with trying this anyway.

Obviously this is very young, but delightful even now. A dark-fruited nose with a whiff of refined oak. The palate is velvet, the definition of power without weight. Dark, brambly berries intertwine with cocoa powder and spice. With air the aromatics become more intense and the fruit profile turns a bit brighter. Grippy and well-proportioned, this will certainly age for much longer. While I'm glad I tried this bottle now, I will wait to open my next one!
Smart people! neener Glad you enjoyed it. Honestly, M-G is one of those producers whose wines are rarely very shut down, so even the 14s are currently drinking well, even when you can tell the wine isn't quite ready yet.
Yes, but I'm too impatient to listen to good advice! [truce.gif]

Agreed on these wines, I've recently had some 14s that have been insanely open and expressive (Fourrier) and incredibly tight (Meo). This bottle was somewhere in between the two, but not a waste to open at this point.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#13 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » September 5th, 2020, 12:39 pm

jason stein wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:31 am
jason stein wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:24 pm
Some on here, including William Kelley, told me either to not open this wine or give it lots of air -- throwing caution to the wind, I went ahead with trying this anyway.

Obviously this is very young, but delightful even now. A dark-fruited nose with a whiff of refined oak. The palate is velvet, the definition of power without weight. Dark, brambly berries intertwine with cocoa powder and spice. With air the aromatics become more intense and the fruit profile turns a bit brighter. Grippy and well-proportioned, this will certainly age for much longer. While I'm glad I tried this bottle now, I will wait to open my next one!
Smart people! neener Glad you enjoyed it. Honestly, M-G is one of those producers whose wines are rarely very shut down, so even the 14s are currently drinking well, even when you can tell the wine isn't quite ready yet.
Yes, but I'm too impatient to listen to good advice! [truce.gif]

Agreed on these wines, I've recently had some 14s that have been insanely open and expressive (Fourrier) and incredibly tight (Meo). This bottle was somewhere in between the two, but not a waste to open at this point.
Fourrier is always open haha. As far as 14 goes; I opened a Drouhin Laroze Beze recently and it wasn’t near ready. I think it’s not the worst vintage to open but structured wines will be pretty tight.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#14 Post by jason stein » September 5th, 2020, 1:02 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 12:39 pm
jason stein wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:31 am


Smart people! neener Glad you enjoyed it. Honestly, M-G is one of those producers whose wines are rarely very shut down, so even the 14s are currently drinking well, even when you can tell the wine isn't quite ready yet.
Yes, but I'm too impatient to listen to good advice! [truce.gif]

Agreed on these wines, I've recently had some 14s that have been insanely open and expressive (Fourrier) and incredibly tight (Meo). This bottle was somewhere in between the two, but not a waste to open at this point.
Fourrier is always open haha. As far as 14 goes; I opened a Drouhin Laroze Beze recently and it wasn’t near ready. I think it’s not the worst vintage to open but structured wines will be pretty tight.
Yeah, mostly opening village wines at this point, and the odd 1er cru (like this one)
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#15 Post by Greg K » September 5th, 2020, 2:32 pm

jason stein wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Greg K wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:31 am
jason stein wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 2:24 pm
Some on here, including William Kelley, told me either to not open this wine or give it lots of air -- throwing caution to the wind, I went ahead with trying this anyway.

Obviously this is very young, but delightful even now. A dark-fruited nose with a whiff of refined oak. The palate is velvet, the definition of power without weight. Dark, brambly berries intertwine with cocoa powder and spice. With air the aromatics become more intense and the fruit profile turns a bit brighter. Grippy and well-proportioned, this will certainly age for much longer. While I'm glad I tried this bottle now, I will wait to open my next one!
Smart people! neener Glad you enjoyed it. Honestly, M-G is one of those producers whose wines are rarely very shut down, so even the 14s are currently drinking well, even when you can tell the wine isn't quite ready yet.
Yes, but I'm too impatient to listen to good advice! [truce.gif]

Agreed on these wines, I've recently had some 14s that have been insanely open and expressive (Fourrier) and incredibly tight (Meo). This bottle was somewhere in between the two, but not a waste to open at this point.
Mugneret-Gibourg usually drinks well young, nothing wrong with opening one, so long as you're not expecting the finished product. I knew going it would be a bit angular, but it was still delicious. Some of my friends laugh at me for how much I dislike oaky wines, but there are some producers who really know what they're doing with oak, like Mugneret-Gibourg, so I have no doubt that a 14 1er cru will integrate just fine. I had a glass of 07 Ruchottes on Monday, and oak was definitely not what I was thinking of :)

I'm also not surprised a 14 Fourrier showed open - they're so good young. But not always - a friend generously opened a 17 Combe aux Moine, and while I called Fourrier blind, I thought it might be negoce because of how surprisingly closed the finish was. Was very surprised at the reveal, especially since I absolutely loved the wine at Paulee (it's usually my favorite of his 1ers other than the CSJ).
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#16 Post by William Kelley » September 5th, 2020, 2:49 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am
either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .
228 GBP for six for the 2012 Chaignots... makes me quite nostalgic [snort.gif]
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#17 Post by Tom Blach » September 5th, 2020, 3:22 pm

At the beginning of this millennium I'd often pick up a bottle from Lea and Sandeman on the way home from work, about £20. Other pleasures involved Bachelet Charmes at £30 or an off vintage of Clos Des Epeneaux(in those days they were the ones to drink) at £20 again. It really wasn't long ago, and while the wines are better now they are a major investment rather than an affordable treat.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#18 Post by Jan Janas » September 5th, 2020, 5:47 pm

How far is Robert Chevillon’s Le Chaignots from M-G in terms of quality? While recent vintages have crept up in price too, older ones are available for half the price of M-G.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#19 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 5th, 2020, 6:01 pm

Jan Janas wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 5:47 pm
How far is Robert Chevillon’s Le Chaignots from M-G in terms of quality? While recent vintages have crept up in price too, older ones are available for half the price of M-G.
Completely different styles of wine. Irrelevant comparison.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#20 Post by Mark Y » September 5th, 2020, 11:09 pm

Jan Janas wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 5:47 pm
How far is Robert Chevillon’s Le Chaignots from M-G in terms of quality? While recent vintages have crept up in price too, older ones are available for half the price of M-G.
I find MG to be a far superior producer in general across the board, and I find the MG Chaignot specifically to be a far superior wine than the Chevillon version.
Admittedly I've not had huge verticals of both wines, but i have had a few of each, and they're rather different in style, and frankly not quite in the same league.
Y.e.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#21 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » September 6th, 2020, 5:44 am

They’re made in pretty different styles. I think Chevillon is more classically Nuits with a bit more rusticity imo.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#22 Post by emile bond » September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.
William Kelley wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 2:49 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am
either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .
228 GBP for six for the 2012 Chaignots... makes me quite nostalgic [snort.gif]

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#23 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm

emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.
William Kelley wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 2:49 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:54 am
either you all live in a parallel wine universe or have a bigger budget than I, it’s now pretty much a $200 bottle and the only 99 for sale on w-s is $400. I loved it at $100 . . .
228 GBP for six for the 2012 Chaignots... makes me quite nostalgic [snort.gif]
Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#24 Post by Brady Daniels » September 6th, 2020, 7:44 pm

My most recent vintage is 98. I sadly drank the younger ones.

The sisters have been on a tear, and are legitimately seen as a top-tier producer.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#25 Post by emile bond » September 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.
William Kelley wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 2:49 pm


228 GBP for six for the 2012 Chaignots... makes me quite nostalgic [snort.gif]
Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).
I was able to justify purchases(long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release. Instagram claims another casualty.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#26 Post by dbailey » September 7th, 2020, 12:34 am

emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.

Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).
I was able to justify purchases(long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release. Instagram claims another casualty.
Same here. Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15. Was true for all my allocations except for pycm.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#27 Post by Jan Janas » September 7th, 2020, 1:41 am

Mark Y wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:09 pm
Jan Janas wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 5:47 pm
How far is Robert Chevillon’s Le Chaignots from M-G in terms of quality? While recent vintages have crept up in price too, older ones are available for half the price of M-G.
I find MG to be a far superior producer in general across the board, and I find the MG Chaignot specifically to be a far superior wine than the Chevillon version.
Admittedly I've not had huge verticals of both wines, but i have had a few of each, and they're rather different in style, and frankly not quite in the same league.
Thanks, it seems like this is the consensus view. Will keep that in mind [cheers.gif]

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#28 Post by Kent Comley » September 7th, 2020, 1:45 am

Thanks a very useful note as I picked up a range of M-G '14s. And yes I do find Chevillon's wines to be less focussed, although still rather tasty.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#29 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 7th, 2020, 2:20 am

Jan Janas wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 1:41 am
Mark Y wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 11:09 pm
Jan Janas wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 5:47 pm
How far is Robert Chevillon’s Le Chaignots from M-G in terms of quality? While recent vintages have crept up in price too, older ones are available for half the price of M-G.
I find MG to be a far superior producer in general across the board, and I find the MG Chaignot specifically to be a far superior wine than the Chevillon version.
Admittedly I've not had huge verticals of both wines, but i have had a few of each, and they're rather different in style, and frankly not quite in the same league.
Thanks, it seems like this is the consensus view. Will keep that in mind [cheers.gif]
I’ve never been a huge fan of Chevillon Chaignot, but as much as I love M-G Chaignot, I’d pick Chevillon LSG, Cailles, and Vaucrain over it almost every time. They play more at the M-G Feusselottes level.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#30 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 7th, 2020, 5:53 am

emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Instagram claims another casualty.
Stupid labels are too photogenic!
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#31 Post by emile bond » September 7th, 2020, 9:28 am

dbailey wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:34 am
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm


Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).
I was able to justify purchases(long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release. Instagram claims another casualty.
Same here. Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15. Was true for all my allocations except for pycm.

Yes, 2014 vintage preceding 2015 & 2016, like 2008 preceding 2009 & 2010, which has been discussed in another thread, was somewhat overlooked, in general, in the market. Amazingly, some pricing for M-G from different sources around the USA was still reasonable. Yes, quantities available were less, but the pricing was not prohibitive. 2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#32 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 7th, 2020, 9:33 am

I sucked it up for 2018 (no vacation this year, so extra funds available), but if the curve keeps going up I am done.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#33 Post by PCLIN » September 7th, 2020, 10:02 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.
William Kelley wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 2:49 pm


228 GBP for six for the 2012 Chaignots... makes me quite nostalgic [snort.gif]
Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).

I opened an ‘07 just 3 months ago, it was drinking so well, probably at peak.
Chiu Lin

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#34 Post by emile bond » September 7th, 2020, 11:06 am

PCLIN wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 10:02 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:39 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Just pulled a 2007 from off site cellar to check on in coming weeks, and invoice says cost was $59.99/btl.

Yup. I searched my email and found I paid $55 (and ‘07 was the last vintage I bought).

I opened an ‘07 just 3 months ago, it was drinking so well, probably at peak.
Thank you!

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#35 Post by Howard Cooper » September 7th, 2020, 4:16 pm

emile bond wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:28 am
dbailey wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:34 am
emile bond wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm


I was able to justify purchases(long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release. Instagram claims another casualty.
Same here. Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15. Was true for all my allocations except for pycm.

Yes, 2014 vintage preceding 2015 & 2016, like 2008 preceding 2009 & 2010, which has been discussed in another thread, was somewhat overlooked, in general, in the market. Amazingly, some pricing for M-G from different sources around the USA was still reasonable. Yes, quantities available were less, but the pricing was not prohibitive. 2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers.
It is not that amazing that prices from some sources around the US are still reasonable. As I understand it, prices at the winery are pretty reasonable. It is middlemen and retailers gouging customers in the US. I know that is true even for 2015s. They were reasonably priced even at retail stores in Beaune, if you could find the wines (and the stores where I saw them put limits on how much people could buy). But, the prices charged by retail stores were reasonable. And, still much higher than what the wines cost at the winery.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#36 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm

Tariffs have hurt as well. 25% price jump is a big freaking deal.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#37 Post by c fu » September 7th, 2020, 5:25 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm
Tariffs have hurt as well. 25% price jump is a big freaking deal.
But it’s 25% at the import level. Not at the retail.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#38 Post by Howard Cooper » September 7th, 2020, 5:53 pm

c fu wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:25 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm
Tariffs have hurt as well. 25% price jump is a big freaking deal.
But it’s 25% at the import level. Not at the retail.
A 25% increase at the import level usually results in a 25% increase at retail, but that should not be true when wines are being sold for 3-5 times the price at the winery.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#39 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 7th, 2020, 6:04 pm

c fu wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:25 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm
Tariffs have hurt as well. 25% price jump is a big freaking deal.
But it’s 25% at the import level. Not at the retail.
What Howard said. If markups at all levels remain constant it’s still 25%. I have provided 20 or 30 examples of how it works in the tariff threads.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#40 Post by emile bond » September 9th, 2020, 6:35 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 4:16 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:28 am
dbailey wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:34 am


Same here. Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15. Was true for all my allocations except for pycm.

Yes, 2014 vintage preceding 2015 & 2016, like 2008 preceding 2009 & 2010, which has been discussed in another thread, was somewhat overlooked, in general, in the market. Amazingly, some pricing for M-G from different sources around the USA was still reasonable. Yes, quantities available were less, but the pricing was not prohibitive. 2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers.
It is not that amazing that prices from some sources around the US are still reasonable. As I understand it, prices at the winery are pretty reasonable. It is middlemen and retailers gouging customers in the US. I know that is true even for 2015s. They were reasonably priced even at retail stores in Beaune, if you could find the wines (and the stores where I saw them put limits on how much people could buy). But, the prices charged by retail stores were reasonable. And, still much higher than what the wines cost at the winery.
It is amazing the demand for 2014 vintage, in general, even for an en vogue Producer like M-G, was not higher. Pricing would have been commensurate with higher demand. Ex-Cellar prices were generally higher for 2015 than 2014, especially for 1er Cru & Grand Cru, given that 2015 volumes were not very high. The price the Beaune retailer receives is not necessarily the price offered to all other markets.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#41 Post by Nathan V. » September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 4:16 pm
emile bond wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 9:28 am
dbailey wrote:
September 7th, 2020, 12:34 am


Same here. Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15. Was true for all my allocations except for pycm.

Yes, 2014 vintage preceding 2015 & 2016, like 2008 preceding 2009 & 2010, which has been discussed in another thread, was somewhat overlooked, in general, in the market. Amazingly, some pricing for M-G from different sources around the USA was still reasonable. Yes, quantities available were less, but the pricing was not prohibitive. 2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers.
It is not that amazing that prices from some sources around the US are still reasonable. As I understand it, prices at the winery are pretty reasonable. It is middlemen and retailers gouging customers in the US. I know that is true even for 2015s. They were reasonably priced even at retail stores in Beaune, if you could find the wines (and the stores where I saw them put limits on how much people could buy). But, the prices charged by retail stores were reasonable. And, still much higher than what the wines cost at the winery.
I've bought cellar door and at wholesale in the US for the same vintage. If you factor in a reasonable wholesaler markup (the wholesaler and importer are the same in my market, it is a DI product) it makes sense. The wholesaler needs to make some kind of money. The high prices you see are one of two things: 1) retailers who got the wine grey market marking to either market prices or the price they paid (which was probably higher than normal channels), 2) retailers marking up the wines to make up for the loss leaders they had to sell to even get an allocation.

I don't understand this talk of gouging. Are lawyers the only people allowed to make a living? If you're a good, long time customer of a retailer who gets an allocation, you probably still get one at normal mark-up. That would be about $199 for the 2017 Chambolle-Musigny Feusselottes. If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#42 Post by Howard Cooper » September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am
If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.

Look, for me, I am now at an age where I really don't care. I have enough Burgundy to last me a lifetime, and at my age the really high prices in the US keep me from buying wines I should not be buying. But, I constantly read threads here where people blame the high prices for Burgundy on producers and tariffs where the real cause for high prices in the US is the US trade and people ITB-ish, and your post confirms this point. Why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#43 Post by Nathan V. » September 10th, 2020, 6:51 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am
If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
Don't be obtuse, I didn't mention tariffs.

My restaurant gets allocated the wines because we do a lot of business with the portfolio of the wholesaler. We also get Rosenthal allocations because we do a lot of business with the portfolio, the whole portfolio. We do not get Dujac, DRC and others that come to the market because we don't do business with those whoelsalers. The retail price at normal markup should be around $425 for the 2017 Clos Vougeot.

Why is is "greed" and "gouging" when a retailer sells a wine at market price? In fact, they are probably foolish not to sell cherries at market price. The only reason to do so would be to reward loyalty to good customers. This isn't always about dollars spent, but how annoying you might be and how broadly you spend those dollars. If you're someone who only wants to come in and get allocated wines for the lowest prices, why should someone sell to you?

I'm not talking about tariffs at all, just supplying facts about the business. Just because they don't work out for you doesn't make them unethical or unfair.
ITB-ish.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#44 Post by emile bond » September 10th, 2020, 6:54 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am
If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
The unfortunate part is 2016 & 2015 vintage of M-G wines arrived into the US market through official, authorized channels, i.e. not Grey Market or Parallel sources, prior to October 2019 when tariffs were imposed. 2017 vintage is the first vintage to be affected by tariffs in US for M-G wines unless, of course, prior releases were re-released into US after October 2019. The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts. No individual, or entity is too blame when all are attempting to earn a living, although I still blame Instagram.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#45 Post by Nathan V. » September 10th, 2020, 7:06 am

emile bond wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:54 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am
If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
The unfortunate part is 2016 & 2015 vintage of M-G wines arrived into the US market through official, authorized channels, i.e. not Grey Market or Parallel sources, prior to October 2019 when tariffs were imposed. 2017 vintage is the first vintage to be affected by tariffs in US for M-G wines unless, of course, prior releases were re-released into US after October 2019. The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts. No individual, or entity is too blame when all are attempting to earn a living, although I still blame Instagram.
Yes, the prices did change ex-cellar and subsequent wholesale from 2014 to 2015 to 2016, about 10% per year. There was almost no Chambolle-Musigny Feusselottes in 2016. My prices actually stayed stable from 2016 to 2017. I think they must have got in just before the tariffs or the supply chain did me a solid and absorbed the increase.

Instagram is a problem, but I'm happy when growers I know (and like) can sell their wine more easily and for more money even if that means I don't get everything I want at the prices I used to pay.

FWIW we often have wines like this on our list at or below the market retail price but COVID-19 may wipe us out forever and then Howard will get the last laugh.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#46 Post by emile bond » September 10th, 2020, 7:36 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 7:06 am
emile bond wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:54 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am


The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
The unfortunate part is 2016 & 2015 vintage of M-G wines arrived into the US market through official, authorized channels, i.e. not Grey Market or Parallel sources, prior to October 2019 when tariffs were imposed. 2017 vintage is the first vintage to be affected by tariffs in US for M-G wines unless, of course, prior releases were re-released into US after October 2019. The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts. No individual, or entity is too blame when all are attempting to earn a living, although I still blame Instagram.
Yes, the prices did change ex-cellar and subsequent wholesale from 2014 to 2015 to 2016, about 10% per year. There was almost no Chambolle-Musigny Feusselottes in 2016. My prices actually stayed stable from 2016 to 2017. I think they must have got in just before the tariffs or the supply chain did me a solid and absorbed the increase.

Instagram is a problem, but I'm happy when growers I know (and like) can sell their wine more easily and for more money even if that means I don't get everything I want at the prices I used to pay.

FWIW we often have wines like this on our list at or below the market retail price but COVID-19 may wipe us out forever and then Howard will get the last laugh.
Great to hear 2017s may have arrived pre-tariff! I bet they are delicious, too. I have not been keeping up with the arrival, availability, and pricing of wines as much as in the past due to aforementioned reasons. I am thankful for a great run - when so many bottles lay orphan across the US and were readily available at fantastic prices especially pre 2010 vintage - and will continue to adore the bottles cellared now.

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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#47 Post by Howard Cooper » September 10th, 2020, 11:13 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:51 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:19 am
If you aren't that kind of good customer (good means you buy broadly and don't just try to cherry pick) why shouldn't the retailer price to market?
The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
Don't be obtuse, I didn't mention tariffs.

My restaurant gets allocated the wines because we do a lot of business with the portfolio of the wholesaler. We also get Rosenthal allocations because we do a lot of business with the portfolio, the whole portfolio. We do not get Dujac, DRC and others that come to the market because we don't do business with those whoelsalers. The retail price at normal markup should be around $425 for the 2017 Clos Vougeot.

Why is is "greed" and "gouging" when a retailer sells a wine at market price? In fact, they are probably foolish not to sell cherries at market price. The only reason to do so would be to reward loyalty to good customers. This isn't always about dollars spent, but how annoying you might be and how broadly you spend those dollars. If you're someone who only wants to come in and get allocated wines for the lowest prices, why should someone sell to you?

I'm not talking about tariffs at all, just supplying facts about the business. Just because they don't work out for you doesn't make them unethical or unfair.
Look, you can call it not being foolish, I can call it gouging, but you and I agree on my main point. The really high prices in the US for Mugneret-Gibourg wines are not primarily the result of increases in prices by the domaine or as a result of tariffs. It is the result of large markups by the US trade. I am just stating facts about the business.

As to who is blaming producers and tariffs, look at this thread:

"The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts."

You tell me, did the domaine go up significantly in price for 2015s over 2014s?

Your discussion of cherry pickers is another red herring that is totally in contrast to the what is stated by posters above:

"Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15."

"2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers."

Retailers can do whatever they please. I don't care. I buy most of my wine from two US retailers, and I buy less than half the wine I did a few years ago. But, let us be honest here. AS YOU ADMIT, the price increases in the US do not reflect ex-cellar prices at the domaine. They reflect what you call "pricing to market" by the US trade. Call it whatever you want, but let us agree where the markups are coming from.

Please be honest. Did Mugneret-Gibourg significantly increase ex-cellar prices for the 2015s? I don't really care about what retailers are doing. I just don't want to see people blame higher prices on a very nice wine-making family.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#48 Post by Nathan V. » September 10th, 2020, 1:05 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 11:13 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:51 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:27 am


The "let them eat cake" voice of ITB-ish, the guy who can buy wholesale. If you aren't ITB and don't buy $10,000 of wine from a store a year, you don't deserve good prices. The retail price in the US for 2015 MG grand crus was probably close to 5 times cellar door. It is almost 2 1/2 times what I paid for the wine in a store in Burgundy. Please tell me this is about tariffs.
Don't be obtuse, I didn't mention tariffs.

My restaurant gets allocated the wines because we do a lot of business with the portfolio of the wholesaler. We also get Rosenthal allocations because we do a lot of business with the portfolio, the whole portfolio. We do not get Dujac, DRC and others that come to the market because we don't do business with those whoelsalers. The retail price at normal markup should be around $425 for the 2017 Clos Vougeot.

Why is is "greed" and "gouging" when a retailer sells a wine at market price? In fact, they are probably foolish not to sell cherries at market price. The only reason to do so would be to reward loyalty to good customers. This isn't always about dollars spent, but how annoying you might be and how broadly you spend those dollars. If you're someone who only wants to come in and get allocated wines for the lowest prices, why should someone sell to you?

I'm not talking about tariffs at all, just supplying facts about the business. Just because they don't work out for you doesn't make them unethical or unfair.
Look, you can call it not being foolish, I can call it gouging, but you and I agree on my main point. The really high prices in the US for Mugneret-Gibourg wines are not primarily the result of increases in prices by the domaine or as a result of tariffs. It is the result of large markups by the US trade. I am just stating facts about the business.

As to who is blaming producers and tariffs, look at this thread:

"The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts."

You tell me, did the domaine go up significantly in price for 2015s over 2014s?

Your discussion of cherry pickers is another red herring that is totally in contrast to the what is stated by posters above:

"Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15."

"2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers."

Retailers can do whatever they please. I don't care. I buy most of my wine from two US retailers, and I buy less than half the wine I did a few years ago. But, let us be honest here. AS YOU ADMIT, the price increases in the US do not reflect ex-cellar prices at the domaine. They reflect what you call "pricing to market" by the US trade. Call it whatever you want, but let us agree where the markups are coming from.

Please be honest. Did Mugneret-Gibourg significantly increase ex-cellar prices for the 2015s? I don't really care about what retailers are doing. I just don't want to see people blame higher prices on a very nice wine-making family.
There were ex-cellar price increases from 2014 to 2016 about 10% per year and my wholesale prices mirrored those increases. Significant has a different meaning to me so you'll have to be more explicit about what you mean. There are a lot of nice winemaking families all over France (many of them deeply struggling) and I too like the Mugnerets (who are doing just fine like most folks in Burgundy). The thing is that the wines that come through the official channels doesn't make it into wine-searcher, for the most part. They go to restaurant wine lists and long term customers of retailers that get an allocation. I think the bottles that are on W-S are re-sold or grey market bottles, so we don't really know who is pricing to market and and who is just putting a normal mark-up from a more expensive base cost. Just like the stock market isn't the real economy, wine-searcher and emails from grey market retailers are not the real wine market.

What I object to is your use of the term gouging and implied unethical behavior. You don't actually know what anyone is really doing. A general point is that I don't think gouging is possible with this type of good.

The people that whine about price increases are generally the same people who support a lot of grey market retail because they undercut the same wines brought in through official channels in their market. That's all well and good but the end result is that if you want to take advantage of market inefficiencies for Vilmart Rubis, priced to market Mugneret-Gibourg, Allemand, Gonon, whatever is the other side of that coin.
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Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#49 Post by Howard Cooper » September 10th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 11:13 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 6:51 am


Don't be obtuse, I didn't mention tariffs.

My restaurant gets allocated the wines because we do a lot of business with the portfolio of the wholesaler. We also get Rosenthal allocations because we do a lot of business with the portfolio, the whole portfolio. We do not get Dujac, DRC and others that come to the market because we don't do business with those whoelsalers. The retail price at normal markup should be around $425 for the 2017 Clos Vougeot.

Why is is "greed" and "gouging" when a retailer sells a wine at market price? In fact, they are probably foolish not to sell cherries at market price. The only reason to do so would be to reward loyalty to good customers. This isn't always about dollars spent, but how annoying you might be and how broadly you spend those dollars. If you're someone who only wants to come in and get allocated wines for the lowest prices, why should someone sell to you?

I'm not talking about tariffs at all, just supplying facts about the business. Just because they don't work out for you doesn't make them unethical or unfair.
Look, you can call it not being foolish, I can call it gouging, but you and I agree on my main point. The really high prices in the US for Mugneret-Gibourg wines are not primarily the result of increases in prices by the domaine or as a result of tariffs. It is the result of large markups by the US trade. I am just stating facts about the business.

As to who is blaming producers and tariffs, look at this thread:

"The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts."

You tell me, did the domaine go up significantly in price for 2015s over 2014s?

Your discussion of cherry pickers is another red herring that is totally in contrast to the what is stated by posters above:

"Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15."

"2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers."

Retailers can do whatever they please. I don't care. I buy most of my wine from two US retailers, and I buy less than half the wine I did a few years ago. But, let us be honest here. AS YOU ADMIT, the price increases in the US do not reflect ex-cellar prices at the domaine. They reflect what you call "pricing to market" by the US trade. Call it whatever you want, but let us agree where the markups are coming from.

Please be honest. Did Mugneret-Gibourg significantly increase ex-cellar prices for the 2015s? I don't really care about what retailers are doing. I just don't want to see people blame higher prices on a very nice wine-making family.
There were ex-cellar price increases from 2014 to 2016 about 10% per year and my wholesale prices mirrored those increases. Significant has a different meaning to me so you'll have to be more explicit about what you mean. There are a lot of nice winemaking families all over France (many of them deeply struggling) and I too like the Mugnerets (who are doing just fine like most folks in Burgundy). The thing is that the wines that come through the official channels doesn't make it into wine-searcher, for the most part. They go to restaurant wine lists and long term customers of retailers that get an allocation. I think the bottles that are on W-S are re-sold or grey market bottles, so we don't really know who is pricing to market and and who is just putting a normal mark-up from a more expensive base cost. Just like the stock market isn't the real economy, wine-searcher and emails from grey market retailers are not the real wine market.

What I object to is your use of the term gouging and implied unethical behavior. You don't actually know what anyone is really doing. A general point is that I don't think gouging is possible with this type of good.

The people that whine about price increases are generally the same people who support a lot of grey market retail because they undercut the same wines brought in through official channels in their market. That's all well and good but the end result is that if you want to take advantage of market inefficiencies for Vilmart Rubis, priced to market Mugneret-Gibourg, Allemand, Gonon, whatever is the other side of that coin.
Once again, you are going off point. Multiple people on this thread have stated that they lost long-term allocations or have seen the price rise substantially (which I take to mean a lot more than 10% per year). Would you agree that people with long-term allocations are generally not cherry pickers? For example, one person stated "I was able to justify purchases (long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release." Would you agree 33-50% is substantially more than 10%. Thus, I think your neverending discussions of cherry-picking is a red herring that has nothing to go with what is actually being discussed. And, as I said, most of my wine comes from two stores and most of my purchases not from those stores are wines they don't carry or things I get when I go to Burgundy. Even when I go to Burgundy, I typically do not buy wines I can get at a reasonable price at the two stores where I get most of my wines.

Yet, again, my purpose in my posts is to shine a light on where price hikes are coming from and in this case it really isn't the winery - and in your last post you even confirmed this.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

Nathan V.
Posts: 1831
Joined: November 9th, 2009, 11:47 am

Re: TN: 2014 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Les Chaignots

#50 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2020, 5:56 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 1:14 pm
Nathan V. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 11:13 am


Look, you can call it not being foolish, I can call it gouging, but you and I agree on my main point. The really high prices in the US for Mugneret-Gibourg wines are not primarily the result of increases in prices by the domaine or as a result of tariffs. It is the result of large markups by the US trade. I am just stating facts about the business.

As to who is blaming producers and tariffs, look at this thread:

"The pricing for 2016 & 2015 vintages being significantly higher than 2014 vintage was undoubtedly a result of higher, Ex-Cellar prices due to small volumes; extremely high demand; and all tiers of sales channel maximizing profitability. It is merely disappointing when great drinking comes to an end for many long time enthusiasts."

You tell me, did the domaine go up significantly in price for 2015s over 2014s?

Your discussion of cherry pickers is another red herring that is totally in contrast to the what is stated by posters above:

"Had a decent allocation for quite a long time but couldn’t stomach the price rises in 15."

"2015 was the beginning of the end for so many long time Consumers."

Retailers can do whatever they please. I don't care. I buy most of my wine from two US retailers, and I buy less than half the wine I did a few years ago. But, let us be honest here. AS YOU ADMIT, the price increases in the US do not reflect ex-cellar prices at the domaine. They reflect what you call "pricing to market" by the US trade. Call it whatever you want, but let us agree where the markups are coming from.

Please be honest. Did Mugneret-Gibourg significantly increase ex-cellar prices for the 2015s? I don't really care about what retailers are doing. I just don't want to see people blame higher prices on a very nice wine-making family.
There were ex-cellar price increases from 2014 to 2016 about 10% per year and my wholesale prices mirrored those increases. Significant has a different meaning to me so you'll have to be more explicit about what you mean. There are a lot of nice winemaking families all over France (many of them deeply struggling) and I too like the Mugnerets (who are doing just fine like most folks in Burgundy). The thing is that the wines that come through the official channels doesn't make it into wine-searcher, for the most part. They go to restaurant wine lists and long term customers of retailers that get an allocation. I think the bottles that are on W-S are re-sold or grey market bottles, so we don't really know who is pricing to market and and who is just putting a normal mark-up from a more expensive base cost. Just like the stock market isn't the real economy, wine-searcher and emails from grey market retailers are not the real wine market.

What I object to is your use of the term gouging and implied unethical behavior. You don't actually know what anyone is really doing. A general point is that I don't think gouging is possible with this type of good.

The people that whine about price increases are generally the same people who support a lot of grey market retail because they undercut the same wines brought in through official channels in their market. That's all well and good but the end result is that if you want to take advantage of market inefficiencies for Vilmart Rubis, priced to market Mugneret-Gibourg, Allemand, Gonon, whatever is the other side of that coin.
Once again, you are going off point. Multiple people on this thread have stated that they lost long-term allocations or have seen the price rise substantially (which I take to mean a lot more than 10% per year). Would you agree that people with long-term allocations are generally not cherry pickers? For example, one person stated "I was able to justify purchases (long retail relationships with prices less than full retail helped) through ‘14 for BR, V-R, NSG, Chaignots, snd, believe it or not, even C-M Feusselottes. With ‘15 vintage I could not justify any bottling - prices increased 33-50% - and will arguably never be able to buy another vintage on release." Would you agree 33-50% is substantially more than 10%. Thus, I think your neverending discussions of cherry-picking is a red herring that has nothing to go with what is actually being discussed. And, as I said, most of my wine comes from two stores and most of my purchases not from those stores are wines they don't carry or things I get when I go to Burgundy. Even when I go to Burgundy, I typically do not buy wines I can get at a reasonable price at the two stores where I get most of my wines.

Yet, again, my purpose in my posts is to shine a light on where price hikes are coming from and in this case it really isn't the winery - and in your last post you even confirmed this.
All I know are ex-cellar and wholesale prices for M-G. I don't know where those people shopped and I don't know what the prices, in fact were. I don't know if they were grey market or official channels. However, what I know about it is a lot more than you know about it.

Again, the prices you see on wine-searcher or from grey-marketers are irrelevant to our discussion. Why cherry-picking isn't a red herring is because it is, in large part, the driving force behind these price increases for certain wines, M-G among them. Collectors will pay a premium for these wines but as a retailer, you don't get to just buy these wines you have to buy a lot of other stuff. It's also a natural consequence of grinding down the margins on most other wines. The loss of friction in this marketplace is what everyone wanted and this is what it looks like in real terms.

My point is that it is a complex landscape and when you scream "gouging" you're incorrect. You've failed to even explain what gouging would even mean in this context.
ITB-ish.
V = V a n der g r i f t

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