J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

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A.Gillette
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#101 Post by A.Gillette » September 4th, 2020, 7:06 pm

K Kl@dder wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 4:51 pm
So you all have me intrigued on JJ Prum. Never tried it, but interested to seek it out. Where would you recommend I start? Looks like I can get the below at my local Binnys. Anything worth taking a swing at, or simply "buy all 5 and give it a go"

2018 Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Auslese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett

Appreciate the input

I’d buy one of the kabi and start there. No need to buy 5 bottles and the kabi will be the smallest departure from what you are used to if you don’t drink a lot of wines with residual sugar. Some young Prum can show sponti for a while (haven’t seen it with ‘18). I’d start small and let it grow.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#102 Post by DanielP » September 4th, 2020, 7:09 pm

Make sure you leave some in the fridge to follow over several days. Young sweet rieslings can show their best even days after opening
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#103 Post by Paul McCourt » September 4th, 2020, 7:27 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 5:32 pm
Keith,
Buy one bottle of each. They are all excellent; which one you like the most is a personal preference thing. I'm (strongly) partial to Wehlener Sonnenuhr, and that almost certainly is JJ Prum's most popular vineyard, but plenty of folks prefer some of their other wines.
I’m partial to the Graacher. One never knows who will favor what, which is a big part of the fun.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#104 Post by Howard Cooper » September 5th, 2020, 5:05 am

K Kl@dder wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 4:51 pm
So you all have me intrigued on JJ Prum. Never tried it, but interested to seek it out. Where would you recommend I start? Looks like I can get the below at my local Binnys. Anything worth taking a swing at, or simply "buy all 5 and give it a go"

2018 Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Auslese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett

Appreciate the input
Prum wines really need some age. I am sure that in the Chicago area you can find something older than a 2018. Wehlener Sonnenuhr is their best appellation and what they are best known for, but Prum also makes excellent wines from Graacher Himmelreich, Zeltinger Sonnenuhr and Berncasteler Badstube.

Of the ones you named, try the Auslese. But, do know that it will be on the sweeter side.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#105 Post by alan weinberg » September 5th, 2020, 9:07 am

Prum is a great value and one can reach back quite far vintagewise without the pain of cost appreciation. Older vintages just don’t seem to go up much in value. So it’s a drinker’s wine, not a speculator’s, excepting the gold capsules and auction wines.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#106 Post by RyanC » September 5th, 2020, 9:08 am

alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 9:07 am
Prum is a great value and one can reach back quite far vintagewise without the pain of cost appreciation. Older vintages just don’t seem to go up much in value. So it’s a drinker’s wine, not a speculator’s, excepting the gold capsules and auction wines.
Yes, although it seems to be becoming harder to find back vintages.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#107 Post by G. Curd » September 5th, 2020, 10:38 am

RyanC wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 9:08 am
alan weinberg wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 9:07 am
Prum is a great value and one can reach back quite far vintagewise without the pain of cost appreciation. Older vintages just don’t seem to go up much in value. So it’s a drinker’s wine, not a speculator’s, excepting the gold capsules and auction wines.
Yes, although it seems to be becoming harder to find back vintages.
As someone who has been trying to back fill I can agree with this and attest that it is hard to find back vintages quickly. However, with patience and time they are available at auction and such. Like someone said above, you can really get some great prior vintages without a huge markup. I bought two bottles of the 09 spatlese a couple of days ago for $44 and two bottles of 09 auslese for $54. Not super cheap, but not a ton of markup for a wine that is 11 years old and from a vintage that is renowned to be a great vintage. As with most prior vintages of any wine it's really about provenance.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#108 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 5th, 2020, 10:43 am

2009 is a very good vintage. Not among those that would reach "great."
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#109 Post by Barry L i p t o n » September 5th, 2020, 12:51 pm

PSA Lopa wines just put on an offer on 2019 JJ Prum

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#110 Post by Chris Seiber » September 5th, 2020, 1:26 pm

What are the better recent vintages for someone like me who prefers high acid and more moderate sweetness?

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#111 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 5th, 2020, 1:28 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 1:26 pm
What are the better recent vintages for someone like me who prefers high acid and more moderate sweetness?
Higher acid in more recent vintages - 2017

Everything is pretty ripe these days (thank you climate change). You might enjoy some 2012s or 2010s if you can find them.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#112 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 5th, 2020, 1:41 pm

Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 12:51 pm
PSA Lopa wines just put on an offer on 2019 JJ Prum
Thanks, Barry! Just requested 6 WS Auslese (which appears to be the most attractive pricing of all wines offered in the blast) and 3 of the WS Spatlese.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#113 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 5th, 2020, 1:52 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 1:26 pm
What are the better recent vintages for someone like me who prefers high acid and more moderate sweetness?
‘10 and ‘17, then ‘08 and ‘12. ‘15 has a lot of acidity but also is very rich.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#114 Post by G. Curd » September 5th, 2020, 3:39 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 10:43 am
2009 is a very good vintage. Not among those that would reach "great."
You are correct. Great was too strong of a word. I suppose. l my personal preference/palate got in the way. For someone like myself that prefers the Spatlese and Auslese level, the 2009 vintage was a very good vintage to me (For Prum at least). However, you are correct that 2009 wasn’t as good across the board like some of the other “great vintages” so I definitely misspoke with my own preferences in mind.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#115 Post by Eric Ifune » September 5th, 2020, 3:57 pm

Prum is a great value and one can reach back quite far vintagewise without the pain of cost appreciation. Older vintages just don’t seem to go up much in value. So it’s a drinker’s wine, not a speculator’s, excepting the gold capsules and auction wines.
The old wines at the Ichinose auction seemed to bring very high prices.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#116 Post by Lars Carlberg » September 6th, 2020, 1:44 am

DanielP wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:34 pm
Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:17 pm
Love Grunhaus. As consistent as Prum though? Up to you. Willi Schaefer is another where I’ve enjoyed excellent bottles back to 1970, but Manfred had already been making great wines at Prum for 7 years then (IIRC), Not to say earlier ones were not also wonderful.

My wife and I have already opened 40 bottles of 2019, including Falkenstein #11,#12 and #14. It’s a really brilliant vintage.
I know the topic is about Prum, but does anyone know if any 750mLs of #11 made it to the US? All I've seen are magnums
Half the cask of AP 11, nicknamed Meyer Nepal, was bottled in magnums. Williams Corner Wine and Piedmont Wine Imports selected and shipped Meyer Nepal in 750-ml bottles. It's the only wine that we bottled in mags from the 2019 vintage.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#117 Post by Howard Cooper » September 6th, 2020, 12:54 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 1:26 pm
What are the better recent vintages for someone like me who prefers high acid and more moderate sweetness?
2008 and 2010. Or, just go for the Saar or the Ruwer.

For Prum, 2005 was a great vintage if you can still find any.
Last edited by Howard Cooper on September 6th, 2020, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#118 Post by Howard Cooper » September 6th, 2020, 12:56 pm

Lars Carlberg wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 1:44 am
DanielP wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:34 pm
Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:17 pm
Love Grunhaus. As consistent as Prum though? Up to you. Willi Schaefer is another where I’ve enjoyed excellent bottles back to 1970, but Manfred had already been making great wines at Prum for 7 years then (IIRC), Not to say earlier ones were not also wonderful.

My wife and I have already opened 40 bottles of 2019, including Falkenstein #11,#12 and #14. It’s a really brilliant vintage.
I know the topic is about Prum, but does anyone know if any 750mLs of #11 made it to the US? All I've seen are magnums
Half the cask of AP 11, nicknamed Meyer Nepal, was bottled in magnums. Williams Corner Wine and Piedmont Wine Imports selected and shipped Meyer Nepal in 750-ml bottles. It's the only wine that we bottled in mags from the 2019 vintage.
I got the 11 in 750s but I think the place I got it from is sold out of them.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#119 Post by David_K » September 6th, 2020, 12:57 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 12:54 pm
Chris Seiber wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 1:26 pm
What are the better recent vintages for someone like me who prefers high acid and more moderate sweetness?
2008 and 2010
The 2010s are very high acid, but I wouldn't call them of moderate sweetness. They are huge wines.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#120 Post by A Songeur » September 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm

Graacher Himmelreich
Wehlener Sonnenuhr
Both Prum and W Schaefer make these wines . How do they compare? For different cuvees (kab, spat...)
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#121 Post by DanielP » September 6th, 2020, 2:48 pm

Lars Carlberg wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 1:44 am
Half the cask of AP 11, nicknamed Meyer Nepal, was bottled in magnums. Williams Corner Wine and Piedmont Wine Imports selected and shipped Meyer Nepal in 750-ml bottles. It's the only wine that we bottled in mags from the 2019 vintage.
Thanks Lars. Were there particular characteristics of #11 that led to magnum bottling?
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#122 Post by Andrew K. » September 6th, 2020, 3:19 pm

A Songeur wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm
Graacher Himmelreich
Wehlener Sonnenuhr
Both Prum and W Schaefer make these wines . How do they compare? For different cuvees (kab, spat...)
A lot more than those two houses make wine from those vineyards. There are dozens.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#123 Post by A.Gillette » September 6th, 2020, 6:11 pm

A Songeur wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm
Graacher Himmelreich
Wehlener Sonnenuhr
Both Prum and W Schaefer make these wines . How do they compare? For different cuvees (kab, spat...)
It’s interesting - Willi Schaefer’s wehlener sonnenuhr has always seemed a bit like a forgotten cuvée. There isn’t much, and I don’t think he makes a kabinett from it - typically an auslese and in 2019 a spatlese. But it’s always seemed like an afterthought to his two graacher sites. I’ve always wondered why - less-favored site, small plot, old vines? Who knows. If the reviews are to be believed, it sounds like it’s something special in 2019, so maybe it’s time to try it next to Prum.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#124 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 6th, 2020, 6:18 pm

A.Gillette wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:11 pm
A Songeur wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm
Graacher Himmelreich
Wehlener Sonnenuhr
Both Prum and W Schaefer make these wines . How do they compare? For different cuvees (kab, spat...)
It’s interesting - Willi Schaefer’s wehlener sonnenuhr has always seemed a bit like a forgotten cuvée. There isn’t much, and I don’t think he makes a kabinett from it - typically an auslese and in 2019 a spatlese. But it’s always seemed like an afterthought to his two graacher sites. I’ve always wondered why - less-favored site, small plot, old vines? Who knows. If the reviews are to be believed, it sounds like it’s something special in 2019, so maybe it’s time to try it next to Prum.
A
Schaefer’s WS plot is extremely small, and while good, not a prime portion of the vineyard. Schaefer has made Kabinett from the plot in numerous vintages, but not recently as the climate has warmed. 2007 was the last of several WS Kabinetts I had in the cellar. Still have some 1999 WS Kabinett.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#125 Post by Howard Cooper » September 6th, 2020, 6:21 pm

A.Gillette wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 6:11 pm
A Songeur wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 2:23 pm
Graacher Himmelreich
Wehlener Sonnenuhr
Both Prum and W Schaefer make these wines . How do they compare? For different cuvees (kab, spat...)
It’s interesting - Willi Schaefer’s wehlener sonnenuhr has always seemed a bit like a forgotten cuvée. There isn’t much, and I don’t think he makes a kabinett from it - typically an auslese and in 2019 a spatlese. But it’s always seemed like an afterthought to his two graacher sites. I’ve always wondered why - less-favored site, small plot, old vines? Who knows. If the reviews are to be believed, it sounds like it’s something special in 2019, so maybe it’s time to try it next to Prum.
A
Prum owns the best part of Wehlener Sonnenuhr.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#126 Post by Lars Carlberg » September 6th, 2020, 10:05 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 12:56 pm
Lars Carlberg wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 1:44 am
DanielP wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:34 pm


I know the topic is about Prum, but does anyone know if any 750mLs of #11 made it to the US? All I've seen are magnums
Half the cask of AP 11, nicknamed Meyer Nepal, was bottled in magnums. Williams Corner Wine and Piedmont Wine Imports selected and shipped Meyer Nepal in 750-ml bottles. It's the only wine that we bottled in mags from the 2019 vintage.
I got the 11 in 750s but I think the place I got it from is sold out of them.
MacArthur Beverages has one remaining bottle of AP 8.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#127 Post by Lars Carlberg » September 6th, 2020, 10:25 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 2:48 pm
Lars Carlberg wrote:
September 6th, 2020, 1:44 am
Half the cask of AP 11, nicknamed Meyer Nepal, was bottled in magnums. Williams Corner Wine and Piedmont Wine Imports selected and shipped Meyer Nepal in 750-ml bottles. It's the only wine that we bottled in mags from the 2019 vintage.
Thanks Lars. Were there particular characteristics of #11 that led to magnum bottling?
You're welcome, Daniel. We chose AP 11 (Meyer Nepal), because we felt like it was an ideal wine for magnums—light, brisk, and crystalline. Had we known the super-high score it would receive by Mosel Fine Wines, we would have chosen another cask, so that we would have had more bottles for our clients. In past vintages, we like to choose one of the Niedermenniger Herrenberg Spätlese feinherb wines as our magnum bottling, but AP 3 (Palm) and AP 4 (Onkel Peter) are too popular for bottling half the cask in mags.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#128 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2020, 6:18 pm

Had a 2005 Bernkastler Badstube Spatlese from Prum tonight. What a beautiful wines and my guess it will drink beautifully for many, many years. Prum really hit it out of the park in 2005.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#129 Post by bob parsons alberta » September 11th, 2020, 10:56 pm

With Peking Duck, 4 of us enjoyed the 2012 Graacher Himmelreicht Spatlese. Great drinking indeed. The red was the Strekov FRED #5 from Slovakia.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#130 Post by Barry L i p t o n » September 12th, 2020, 8:36 am

Does Prum make a GG?

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#131 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 12th, 2020, 8:58 am

Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 8:36 am
Does Prum make a GG?
No
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2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#132 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 12th, 2020, 11:35 am

Not commercialised anyway. Yet.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#133 Post by Lee Short » September 12th, 2020, 11:59 am

Had a 375 of the 2002 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese a couple of nights ago. Pleasurable now, but will improve.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#134 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 12th, 2020, 12:29 pm

Lee Short wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 11:59 am
Had a 375 of the 2002 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese a couple of nights ago. Pleasurable now, but will improve.
Lee, the 750 I opened in January was good the first night but really started to sing on the second.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#135 Post by Howard Cooper » September 12th, 2020, 2:27 pm

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 8:58 am
Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 8:36 am
Does Prum make a GG?
No
[winner.gif] champagne.gif
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#136 Post by Juliec » September 13th, 2020, 6:53 pm

Given the spill over to German Rieslings in general. Thoughts on how long to cellar the 2019 vintage before starting into them? Also would the same carry over for the rest of 2019 German Rieslings in general. Thanks in advance. (Also thoughts on the 2003 vintage is appreciated as well, general impressions and cellar time - generally for Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese And Spatlese)

Also, why is the 2019 being sold through 2 wine shops in the States? Will the mass distribution of the wine be later this fall?
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#137 Post by Andrew K. » September 13th, 2020, 8:33 pm

Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 8:36 am
Does Prum make a GG?
LOL at the Prum direct retailer in Bernkastel-Kues you walk in and ask for Prum and the owner says, you know Prum still makes sweet wines, right? But he did hook me up with some 2005 WS GK for 75 €!
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#138 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 14th, 2020, 5:53 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:53 pm
Given the spill over to German Rieslings in general. Thoughts on how long to cellar the 2019 vintage before starting into them? Also would the same carry over for the rest of 2019 German Rieslings in general. Thanks in advance. (Also thoughts on the 2003 vintage is appreciated as well, general impressions and cellar time - generally for Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese And Spatlese)

Also, why is the 2019 being sold through 2 wine shops in the States? Will the mass distribution of the wine be later this fall?
Most 2019s haven't hit the U.S. market yet. I imagine there will be delays because of recent changes in import and distribution channels (e.g. Skurnik parting ways with Terry Thiese). I'm not sure how much the tariffs play a role into the quantity that may be brought over in excess of what people order via pre-arrival offers.

How long to cellar depends upon your personal preference, and the best wines/producers can age gracefully regardless of vintage. Given that there is great ripeness and acidity with the 2019 vintage I imagine most of them will be very pleasurable to drink on release. You should definitely try some while they're young (esp. if you like riesling while it has its full primary fruit profile). It may give you some insight into which ones to put away for the long haul as well.

I had the 2003 JJ Prum Graacher Himmelreich and Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslesen at the estate two years ago, both were drinking well and at the early point of a mature plateau. 2003 was a freakish vintage, with really high ripeness and sugar levels related to prolonged hydric stress, so you'd have to be more selective about producer.
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2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#139 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 14th, 2020, 6:21 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 6:53 pm
Given the spill over to German Rieslings in general. Thoughts on how long to cellar the 2019 vintage before starting into them? Also would the same carry over for the rest of 2019 German Rieslings in general. Thanks in advance. (Also thoughts on the 2003 vintage is appreciated as well, general impressions and cellar time - generally for Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese And Spatlese)

Also, why is the 2019 being sold through 2 wine shops in the States? Will the mass distribution of the wine be later this fall?
Cellaring top level German Riesling is largely about how you like the wines. They can go as long as you want them to, as long as you enjoy the aged character. 2019 will be no different.

2003 is turning out to be fabulous, if you like big, rich wines. The 2003s from Prüm are top shelf, and still quite young. That said, it is getting to be time to check in, in order to see where they stand in relation to your aged wine style preferences. I am planning to do just that this fall/winter.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#140 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 14th, 2020, 11:46 pm

I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#141 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 8:43 pm

Thanks Brian and David for the tips. Much appreciated
hong

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#142 Post by Howard Cooper » September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:46 pm
I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.
What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
Howard

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#143 Post by Robert Dentice » September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:46 pm
I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.
What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#144 Post by Doug Schulman » September 16th, 2020, 6:04 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 5th, 2020, 5:05 am
K Kl@dder wrote:
September 4th, 2020, 4:51 pm
So you all have me intrigued on JJ Prum. Never tried it, but interested to seek it out. Where would you recommend I start? Looks like I can get the below at my local Binnys. Anything worth taking a swing at, or simply "buy all 5 and give it a go"

2018 Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Auslese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett

Appreciate the input
Prum wines really need some age. I am sure that in the Chicago area you can find something older than a 2018. Wehlener Sonnenuhr is their best appellation and what they are best known for, but Prum also makes excellent wines from Graacher Himmelreich, Zeltinger Sonnenuhr and Berncasteler Badstube.

Of the ones you named, try the Auslese. But, do know that it will be on the sweeter side.
I used to think they required aging, but I really don’t think that’s the case anymore with the past few vintages. I just had a 2017 W-S Kabinett Last night that was singing. That’s totally fitting with my experience of these lines lately. Better with age? Yes. But again, I don’t think they need it anymore. I think a 2018 or 2017 (especially ‘17) is a fine place to start.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#145 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 16th, 2020, 6:44 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:46 pm
I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.
What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
Well, since it takes two to argue... I think current Grunhaus wines are absolutely top level, and apart from a tiny 'blip' 20 years ago that lasted 2-3 years (and actually there are really good wines from that period) the wines are very consistent (admittedly my experience doesn't go back before 1978.)

;)

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#146 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 16th, 2020, 7:26 am

I would argue that the "blip" 20 years ago wasn't even a blip. The 2001 Grunahus wines are amazing right now (QbA through Spatlese...have't gotten into the Auslesen yet).
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#147 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 16th, 2020, 8:26 am

I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#148 Post by Jay Miller » September 16th, 2020, 9:28 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:26 am
I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!
What is?
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#149 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 16th, 2020, 9:34 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:26 am
I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!
Well yeah...then there's the overlooked '93s.

That being said, the 2001 QbA is jaw dropping, and has been for 5 or 6 years.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#150 Post by Robert Dentice » September 16th, 2020, 10:00 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:44 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am


What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
Well, since it takes two to argue... I think current Grunhaus wines are absolutely top level, and apart from a tiny 'blip' 20 years ago that lasted 2-3 years (and actually there are really good wines from that period) the wines are very consistent (admittedly my experience doesn't go back before 1978.)

;)
I assume you have not tried the 19 auction wines?
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