J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
Russell Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8140
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
Location: Bordeaux

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#151 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 16th, 2020, 10:02 am

No. I have the regular ones in the cellar though in the queue.

dvansteenderen
Posts: 125
Joined: January 5th, 2019, 5:56 am
Location: Rotterdam, the Netherlands

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#152 Post by dvansteenderen » September 16th, 2020, 11:27 am

[/quote]
I assume you have not tried the 19 auction wines?
[/quote]

These are the scores for the 2019 auction wines by Mosel Fine Wines (don't know if I am allowed to post this since they are the intellectual owner)?
So, anyway, read their work on http://www.moselfinewines.com/

2019er Maximin Grünhaus Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Auslese Nr. 34 10 20 Auction 95/100
The 2019er Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Auslese Nr. 34 was made from partially botrytized fruit and was fermented down to noble-sweet levels of residual sugar. It offers a gorgeously ripe and engaging nose made of pineapple, apricot, mango, coconut, grapefruit, almond cream, mint, and herbs. The wine is smooth and sweet on the honeyed and slightly big palate, but the underlying finesse comes through in the racy and comparatively light finish. Cream, exotic fruits, almond, apricot, and honeyed elements add to the gorgeousness of this superb dessert wine in the aftertaste. 2034-2059

2019er Maximin Grünhaus Maximin Grünhäuser Herrenberg Riesling Trocken GG 03 20 94/100
The 2019er Maximin Grünhäuser Herrenberg Riesling GG, as it is referred to on the consumer label, will be sold in magnums at the Auction (the same wine is sold via regular channels in 75cl bottle). It was fermented spontaneously and aged in traditional Fuder cask. It offers a stunning nose made of elderflower, smoke, minty herbs, blue berried fruits, and wet stone. The wine is beautifully juicy and playful on the floral and zesty palate and leaves a gorgeously backward yet impeccably balanced feel of minerals, fruits, and spices in the hugely long, fully dry-tasting, and nicely tart finish. This dry Riesling is a huge success! 2026-2034

I am looking forward to tasting them this Friday in Trier at the Auction!
David van Steenderen | ITB

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#153 Post by Howard Cooper » September 16th, 2020, 12:30 pm

Robert Dentice wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 11:46 pm
I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.
What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]
Last edited by Howard Cooper on September 16th, 2020, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Brian S t o t t e r
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1933
Joined: April 21st, 2015, 6:05 am
Location: St. Louis, MO
Contact:

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#154 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 16th, 2020, 1:05 pm

Grunhaus may have had a "blip" 20 years ago, but I wouldn't knock it as not being a great wine house just for that. There's a difference between what's happening there and say, its neighbor Karthauserhof.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7262
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#155 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 12:30 pm
Robert Dentice wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:11 am


What is your definition of a "great wine house"?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn't like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. https://maximingruenhaus.de/en/experience/history/
This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]
I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
ITB

User avatar
Eric Ifune
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 7:43 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#156 Post by Eric Ifune » September 16th, 2020, 3:09 pm

Recently opened a 1990 Abtsberg Auslese and 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese. Both wonderful and up there with JJ Prum.
If we're including fortified wines, then Valdespino and Tradicion for Sherry. JM Fonseca for Setubal.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#157 Post by Howard Cooper » September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 12:30 pm
Robert Dentice wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 5:55 am


This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.
So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]
I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

Jayson Cohen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#158 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 16th, 2020, 3:41 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 12:30 pm


So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]
I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 782
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#159 Post by DanielP » September 16th, 2020, 4:05 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm


I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.
Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I'd say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.
P@ik

Jayson Cohen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#160 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 16th, 2020, 4:54 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 4:05 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm


I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.
Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I'd say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.
Baby fat. Good to know! I had heard similar reports about the ‘16 Schaefer Spatlesen firming up.

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 37460
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#161 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 16th, 2020, 6:02 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm


I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.
Jayson,

Who are you getting your Grunhaus from? Their distribution has gone from bad to criminally bad.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#162 Post by Howard Cooper » September 16th, 2020, 6:41 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 4:05 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm


I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.
Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I'd say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.
The 1989s actually had a lot of zing for the vintage also.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

eweininger
Posts: 343
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 6:48 am

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#163 Post by eweininger » September 16th, 2020, 6:42 pm

Since this thread is already way off-topic....

Question for Von Schubert fans: is it reasonable to say, at least as a rough rule of thumb, that in general Abtsberg > Herrenberg? Or do we not go there?
Elliot

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 37460
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#164 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 16th, 2020, 6:50 pm

eweininger wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Since this thread is already way off-topic....

Question for Von Schubert fans: is it reasonable to say, at least as a rough rule of thumb, that in general Abtsberg > Herrenberg? Or do we not go there?
I suppose you can say that, but as things get warmer I find I prefer Herrenberg.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 782
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#165 Post by DanielP » September 16th, 2020, 7:07 pm

Also, the change to extra long bottles is a real killer. You can't find boxes that fit!
P@ik

User avatar
David_K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 920
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 7:01 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#166 Post by David_K » September 16th, 2020, 7:16 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 4:05 pm
Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I'd say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.
I've had both the '15 and '16 Abtsberg Spatlesen as well, and agree. Right now, the '16 has more zing, is more lively, and is drinking better. It was the wine that convinced me to backfill more '16s; they're really good, though none others have quite reached the heights of the Abtsberg Spatlese. '15 is stuffed to the gills, and was holding its cards much closer to the vest. I am not sure which will be better in 20 years, but I'm glad to have both.
K@ntrОwi╦z

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#167 Post by Howard Cooper » September 17th, 2020, 5:26 am

eweininger wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Since this thread is already way off-topic....

Question for Von Schubert fans: is it reasonable to say, at least as a rough rule of thumb, that in general Abtsberg > Herrenberg? Or do we not go there?
For my palate, yes.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15032
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#168 Post by Jay Miller » September 17th, 2020, 5:34 am

DanielP wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Also, the change to extra long bottles is a real killer. You can't find boxes that fit!
von Schubert? Please tell me it isn't so. As of what vintage?

That's the reason I stopped buying Julian Haart despite having a love affair with the wines.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
Jay Miller
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15032
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Jersey City

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#169 Post by Jay Miller » September 17th, 2020, 5:42 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:26 am
eweininger wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Since this thread is already way off-topic....

Question for Von Schubert fans: is it reasonable to say, at least as a rough rule of thumb, that in general Abtsberg > Herrenberg? Or do we not go there?
For my palate, yes.
But this should not be taken to mean that Herrenberg isn't also wonderful.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#170 Post by Howard Cooper » September 17th, 2020, 5:44 am

Jay Miller wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:42 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:26 am
eweininger wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Since this thread is already way off-topic....

Question for Von Schubert fans: is it reasonable to say, at least as a rough rule of thumb, that in general Abtsberg > Herrenberg? Or do we not go there?
For my palate, yes.
But this should not be taken to mean that Herrenberg isn't also wonderful.
Agreed.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

User avatar
Howard Cooper
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19601
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 8:37 am
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#171 Post by Howard Cooper » September 17th, 2020, 5:46 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 12:30 pm


So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]
I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
Also, it is my understanding that Wehlener Sonnenuhr did not have such a high reputation as a vineyard site until near the 20th century. As I understand it, the reputation went up because of the Prum, not sure whether it started going up with the start of the JJ Prum estate or whether it did with the slightly older SA Prum estate.
Last edited by Howard Cooper on September 17th, 2020, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 782
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#172 Post by DanielP » September 17th, 2020, 6:50 am

Jay Miller wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:34 am
DanielP wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Also, the change to extra long bottles is a real killer. You can't find boxes that fit!
von Schubert? Please tell me it isn't so. As of what vintage?

That's the reason I stopped buying Julian Haart despite having a love affair with the wines.
2016. Happened with the label update
P@ik

User avatar
Eric Ifune
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3748
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 7:43 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#173 Post by Eric Ifune » September 17th, 2020, 2:37 pm

Also, it is my understanding that Wehlener Sonnenuhr did not have such a high reputation as a vineyard site until near the 20th century. As I understand it, the reputation went up because of the Prum, not sure whether it started going up with the start of the JJ Prum estate or whether it did with the slightly older SA Prum estate.
In the 19th century Brauneberg was considered the best village in the middle Mosel.

User avatar
Dennis Atick
Posts: 8326
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 6:48 pm
Location: East Atlanta

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#174 Post by Dennis Atick » September 17th, 2020, 2:53 pm

Just popping in to say the 2011 Graacher Himmelreich Auslese is drinking pretty damn well tonight. Really lovely acidity.
@decaturwinedude

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7262
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#175 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 17th, 2020, 2:58 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:46 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 2:55 pm


I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.
I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.
Also, it is my understanding that Wehlener Sonnenuhr did not have such a high reputation as a vineyard site until near the 20th century. As I understand it, the reputation went up because of the Prum, not sure whether it started going up with the start of the JJ Prum estate or whether it did with the slightly older SA Prum estate.
Remember what they said about Cros Parantoux?
ITB

User avatar
alan weinberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13140
Joined: April 25th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#176 Post by alan weinberg » September 17th, 2020, 6:42 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 2:58 pm
Remember what they said about Cros Parantoux?
even through WW2 it was a vegetable field filled with large rocks. Sunchokes grew there. Jayer lived on them through the famine of WW2 and later said he could never look at one again. He bought the various small holdings of CP owned by others and dynamited and cleared the vineyard himself, then planted it. It’s a great vineyard.

Is that the story you mentioned?

eweininger
Posts: 343
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 6:48 am

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#177 Post by eweininger » September 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:50 pm
I suppose you can say that, but as things get warmer I find I prefer Herrenberg.
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:44 am
Jay Miller wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:42 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:26 am


For my palate, yes.
But this should not be taken to mean that Herrenberg isn't also wonderful.
Agreed.
Feedback much appreciate. Ill be on the look out for some examples of Herrenberg, which I have very little experience with.
Elliot

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7262
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#178 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 17th, 2020, 8:33 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 2:58 pm
Remember what they said about Cros Parantoux?
even through WW2 it was a vegetable field filled with large rocks. Sunchokes grew there. Jayer lived on them through the famine of WW2 and later said he could never look at one again. He bought the various small holdings of CP owned by others and dynamited and cleared the vineyard himself, then planted it. It’s a great vineyard.

Is that the story you mentioned?
Yes; I was making the point that just because a vineyard was not rated highly in the past, does not negate it might have a great and unique terroir. I think Wehlener is a pretty great terroir.
ITB

Jayson Cohen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#179 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 17th, 2020, 9:43 pm

eweininger wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 6:50 pm
I suppose you can say that, but as things get warmer I find I prefer Herrenberg.
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:44 am
Jay Miller wrote:
September 17th, 2020, 5:42 am


But this should not be taken to mean that Herrenberg isn't also wonderful.
Agreed.
Feedback much appreciate. Ill be on the look out for some examples of Herrenberg, which I have very little experience with.
If you like Auslese and you can find a cask-designated von Schubert MG Herrenberg, don’t hesitate. But generally the Herrenberg wines are great. If you look on a map or in pictures, Abtsberg (a monopole) is right next to Herrenberg.

Russell Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8140
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
Location: Bordeaux

Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#180 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 17th, 2020, 11:02 pm

If you walk the vineyards it’s hard to know where one stops and the other begins (including Bruderberg).

Since you can’t buy everything every year I tend to focus on Abtsberg. But Herrenberg used to get the Eiswine more often - rare these days (there’s a dip at the top where cold air comes over).

For the same reason I less frequently buy Prum Himmelreich, Schaefer WS etc. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be wonderful.

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”