J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

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Mark Golodetz
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J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am

Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#2 Post by Dennis Atick » September 3rd, 2020, 9:00 am

Yep. And they will outlive us. Love it.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#3 Post by RyanC » September 3rd, 2020, 9:01 am

I agree and not many fit the category of genre-defining yet reasonably priced. Some other possibilities though: Foillard, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Baudry, and a smattering of other Germans and Austrians.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#4 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 9:05 am

Agreed. Can't believe how much some of my other favorite rieslings have gone up in price.
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2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#5 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 3rd, 2020, 9:07 am

RyanC wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:01 am
I agree and not many fit the category of genre-defining yet reasonably priced. Some other possibilities though: Foillard, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Baudry, and a smattering of other Germans and Austrians.
Might be my taste but we just had the Lopez de Heredia 2007 Tondonia in our Zoom group. We really disliked it, could not finish the bottle. Not only was it simple, but it had a cloying sweetness in the finish and after taste. Never experienced a LdH like that. Others in thevgroup preferred it to me, and some actually really liked it.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#6 Post by TimF » September 3rd, 2020, 9:09 am

Shh!
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#7 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » September 3rd, 2020, 9:12 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am
Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
Agreed on Prüm and Beaucastel.

+ Huet
Last edited by D@ve D y r 0 f f on September 3rd, 2020, 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#8 Post by ybarselah » September 3rd, 2020, 9:13 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am
Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
so true. and a fascinating take re: comparing to beaucastel. i made a bet with a friend of mine that given between those two wines (they came up in a very similar type of discussion as your post), most people would choose prum, he thought beaucastel. i posted here. i'll try and find it.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#9 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 3rd, 2020, 9:14 am

umm...Donnhoff
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#10 Post by Pat Burton » September 3rd, 2020, 9:17 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:07 am
RyanC wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:01 am
I agree and not many fit the category of genre-defining yet reasonably priced. Some other possibilities though: Foillard, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Baudry, and a smattering of other Germans and Austrians.
Might be my taste but we just had the Lopez de Heredia 2007 Tondonia in our Zoom group. We really disliked it, could not finish the bottle. Not only was it simple, but it had a cloying sweetness in the finish and after taste. Never experienced a LdH like that. Others in thevgroup preferred it to me, and some actually really liked it.
Thanks interesting and concerning. I've never had an LdH with that profile and I've had many vintages. I'll have to check it once my bottles arrive.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#11 Post by Curtis Chen » September 3rd, 2020, 9:29 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:07 am
RyanC wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:01 am
I agree and not many fit the category of genre-defining yet reasonably priced. Some other possibilities though: Foillard, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Baudry, and a smattering of other Germans and Austrians.
Might be my taste but we just had the Lopez de Heredia 2007 Tondonia in our Zoom group. We really disliked it, could not finish the bottle. Not only was it simple, but it had a cloying sweetness in the finish and after taste. Never experienced a LdH like that. Others in thevgroup preferred it to me, and some actually really liked it.
Agree with you on Prum (always buying more) and 07 LdH (simple is the perfect descriptor).
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#12 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 3rd, 2020, 9:34 am

My 2007 LdH wines are stashed deep in the cellar...
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#13 Post by G. Curd » September 3rd, 2020, 10:03 am

I totally agree. As many of you know Prum is my favorite wine. I am keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn’t get too popular and start becoming hard to find/pricey. It’s already really hard for to find some of the better back vintages for someone that isn’t in Europe, Cali, or Hong Kong.

The good news is new vintages are rather easy to come by and ,so far, don’t break the bank. I fully intend on visiting Prum next year.

As for other “bargain” producers, I am still rather new to the world of wine and aging so I don’t have much to add, but am learning a lot. So thanks for those who shared.

Mark I am very jealous of your 4 bottles of 07 LGK that I read on a prior search of the classified section.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#14 Post by L e e H olland » September 3rd, 2020, 10:43 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:07 am

Might be my taste but we just had the Lopez de Heredia 2007 Tondonia in our Zoom group. We really disliked it, could not finish the bottle. Not only was it simple, but it had a cloying sweetness in the finish and after taste. Never experienced a LdH like that. Others in thevgroup preferred it to me, and some actually really liked it.
Had the same experience with 07 Tondonia. I very much prefer the viña bosconia 07 or the 2010 cubillo that I can also get right now.

I have a hard time finding Prum locally, but that is par for the course here. I agree that it is a fantastic value.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#15 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 3rd, 2020, 10:51 am

Top producer in our cellar by half.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#16 Post by Robert Dentice » September 3rd, 2020, 11:03 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am
Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
True but this could be said for so many German wines. How about Falkenstein. Their reference point genre defining Kabinett Trocken is $26. The Auslese is $41. These prices are post tariff for the 2019s after received crazy high scores from multiple publications. Only problem is that there is so little to go around and the secret is out.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#17 Post by Russell Faulkner » September 3rd, 2020, 11:08 am

I love Falkenstein and bought a shed load of 2019s (and before). But they don’t have the track record of Prum, who does consistently? Egon but you can’t call that reasonably priced.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#18 Post by Robert Dentice » September 3rd, 2020, 11:14 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:08 am
I love Falkenstein and bought a shed load of 2019s (and before). But they don’t have the track record of Prum, who does consistently? Egon but you can’t call that reasonably priced.
Fair point and since I have JJ Prum back to the 40s I certainly agree. However at $25 for the Kabi Trocken I will take my chances. I have bought over 10 cases of the 19s and I am still buying.

And as far as Egon goes 50% of my pre 90s bottles have been corked going back to the early 60s. It is heartbreaking.

Also I do have the first Auslese Falkenstein made that I acquired in a charity auction at Rieslingfeier I have been waiting to open it with them, will be an interesting data point on how they age.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#19 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » September 3rd, 2020, 11:21 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 9:14 am
umm...Donnhoff
Yuuuup.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#20 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 11:27 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:03 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am
Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
True but this could be said for so many German wines. How about Falkenstein. Their reference point genre defining Kabinett Trocken is $26. The Auslese is $41. These prices are post tariff for the 2019s after received crazy high scores from multiple publications. Only problem is that there is so little to go around and the secret is out.
Some retailers I've seen getting the Falkenstein wines are now charging more than even that. Party's over!
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#21 Post by Robert Dentice » September 3rd, 2020, 11:37 am

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:27 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:03 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 8:54 am
Just bought some 2019, and was amazed at the restraint on prices. All Auslese in the high fifties, the gold caps were just north of a hundred. And the wines are always excellent, often sublime.

Trying to think of another estate at the top of their peer group that is as well priced. The only other one I can think of is Beaucastel.
True but this could be said for so many German wines. How about Falkenstein. Their reference point genre defining Kabinett Trocken is $26. The Auslese is $41. These prices are post tariff for the 2019s after received crazy high scores from multiple publications. Only problem is that there is so little to go around and the secret is out.
Some retailers I've seen getting the Falkenstein wines are now charging more than even that. Party's over!
Not much more. I just paid $27 for Herrenberg Kabi Trocken. Don't forget that is with the tariff.

Given how much I love the wines it is the greatest deal in the wine world. I had a Roulot Perrieres the other night that was very weak and all I could think was that I could have purchased 4 cases of Falkenstein!
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#22 Post by Chris Seiber » September 3rd, 2020, 11:40 am

I'm a fan, and I bought (for me, certainly nothing on the order Robert Dentice!) a lot of 2015s, mostly the Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett.

But I do sense that prices are rising in the last few years. Not sure if it's tariffs, or maybe just that so few retailers have the 2019s yet, or if the prices are actually on the climb. It will be interesting to see what the prices are when the 2019s hit the shelves around here.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#23 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 11:42 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:37 am
Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:27 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:03 am


True but this could be said for so many German wines. How about Falkenstein. Their reference point genre defining Kabinett Trocken is $26. The Auslese is $41. These prices are post tariff for the 2019s after received crazy high scores from multiple publications. Only problem is that there is so little to go around and the secret is out.
Some retailers I've seen getting the Falkenstein wines are now charging more than even that. Party's over!
Not much more. I just paid $27 for Herrenberg Kabi Trocken. Don't forget that is with the tariff.

Given how much I love the wines it is the greatest deal in the wine world. I had a Roulot Perrieres the other night that was very weak and all I could think was that I could have purchased 4 cases of Falkenstein!
Maybe it was just the one or two retailers that were price gouging that I came across then.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#24 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 3rd, 2020, 11:48 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:40 am
I'm a fan, and I bought (for me, certainly nothing on the order Robert Dentice!) a lot of 2015s, mostly the Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett.

But I do sense that prices are rising in the last few years. Not sure if it's tariffs, or maybe just that so few retailers have the 2019s yet, or if the prices are actually on the climb. It will be interesting to see what the prices are when the 2019s hit the shelves around here.
Tariffs are a big bite. I've bought 10+ cases of 2019 Germans so far (slow year for me), and it's ouch across the board. Of course the wines are still excellent values, just not the complete steal they were before they became stand-ins for Airbus.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#25 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 12:01 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:48 am
Chris Seiber wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:40 am
I'm a fan, and I bought (for me, certainly nothing on the order Robert Dentice!) a lot of 2015s, mostly the Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett.

But I do sense that prices are rising in the last few years. Not sure if it's tariffs, or maybe just that so few retailers have the 2019s yet, or if the prices are actually on the climb. It will be interesting to see what the prices are when the 2019s hit the shelves around here.
Tariffs are a big bite. I've bought 10+ cases of 2019 Germans so far (slow year for me), and it's ouch across the board. Of course the wines are still excellent values, just not the complete steal they were before they became stand-ins for Airbus.
What does a "normal" year look like for you? [wow.gif]

I think I have about 8 cases waiting to come in and I thought that was a lot.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#26 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 3rd, 2020, 12:04 pm

Let’s put it this way, in the last 22 vintages I have bought a low of 6 cases and a high of 64.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#27 Post by Howard Cooper » September 3rd, 2020, 12:17 pm

There are a boatload of great German wine producers with very long track records with wines that are reasonably priced. Unless a wine is Egon Mueller; very, very sweet or a GG, it is probably pretty well priced. I love the wines of JJ Prum (the two producers I have the most wines from in my cellar are Prum and Truchot). But, I cannot say that these wines are any better than those of von Schubert (Maximin Grunhaus) or Zilliken, for example. I also love the wines from Schloss Lieser.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#28 Post by Howard Cooper » September 3rd, 2020, 12:24 pm

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:01 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:48 am
Chris Seiber wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:40 am
I'm a fan, and I bought (for me, certainly nothing on the order Robert Dentice!) a lot of 2015s, mostly the Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett.

But I do sense that prices are rising in the last few years. Not sure if it's tariffs, or maybe just that so few retailers have the 2019s yet, or if the prices are actually on the climb. It will be interesting to see what the prices are when the 2019s hit the shelves around here.
Tariffs are a big bite. I've bought 10+ cases of 2019 Germans so far (slow year for me), and it's ouch across the board. Of course the wines are still excellent values, just not the complete steal they were before they became stand-ins for Airbus.
What does a "normal" year look like for you? [wow.gif]

I think I have about 8 cases waiting to come in and I thought that was a lot.
Wow. I received my first offering of 2019 German wines this week and it was just from one producer - Falkenstein. Got an assorted case, but I am way behind you guys. Have you seen wines in the US from Zilliken or Schloss Lieser?
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#29 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 12:45 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:24 pm
Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:01 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 11:48 am


Tariffs are a big bite. I've bought 10+ cases of 2019 Germans so far (slow year for me), and it's ouch across the board. Of course the wines are still excellent values, just not the complete steal they were before they became stand-ins for Airbus.
What does a "normal" year look like for you? [wow.gif]

I think I have about 8 cases waiting to come in and I thought that was a lot.
Wow. I received my first offering of 2019 German wines this week and it was just from one producer - Falkenstein. Got an assorted case, but I am way behind you guys. Have you seen wines in the US from Zilliken or Schloss Lieser?
No. Panzer told me he isn't getting Zilliken anymore since they're being imported by Loosen Bros. now. Haven't seen Schloss Lieser anywhere.

I've ordered Max Ferd Richter, Falkenstein, JJ Prum, Willi Schaefer (awaiting confirmation), and Vollenweider (awaiting confirmation).
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#30 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 3rd, 2020, 1:26 pm

Lieser is now with Skurnik.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#31 Post by Rob_S » September 3rd, 2020, 1:32 pm

Where is the best place to get Prum through?
utherland

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#32 Post by Jay Miller » September 3rd, 2020, 1:39 pm

Rob_S wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Where is the best place to get Prum through?
I don't know if it's best but winecellarage has a bunch now.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#33 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 3rd, 2020, 1:52 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:39 pm
Rob_S wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Where is the best place to get Prum through?
I don't know if it's best but winecellarage has a bunch now.
That is where I got mine.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#34 Post by Barry L i p t o n » September 3rd, 2020, 2:07 pm

I am surprised on how the discourse on LdH evolved. I agreed with the original inclusion of LdH on the list, and given that I have 2007 LdH 375s to be shipped once it cooled down, it was a sad report.

Anyone hve a different (i.e., postive) experience with LdH Tondonia 2007 - Cellartracker has a few strong reviews but inconsistent overall.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#35 Post by Jay Miller » September 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:52 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:39 pm
Rob_S wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Where is the best place to get Prum through?
I don't know if it's best but winecellarage has a bunch now.
That is where I got mine.
I had a bunch of 2019 JJP in my cart but bought some Alzinger Gruner and a half case of 2007 JJP WS Kabinett instead.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#36 Post by DanielP » September 3rd, 2020, 2:11 pm

Tariffs have been a real killer on the Falkensteins, which I think are up the full tariff percentage from the previous year's retail prices.

JJ Prum pricing for whatever reason is most congruous with pricing in Germany. I can't say I'd be a huge buyer if those pricing differences existed here in the US. There's a lot of producers that I like as much as Prum, but older Prum convince me to continue buying. Hopefully they have been maintaining their same age worthiness.

Also count me as another not-afan of the 07 Tondonia. 06 was really fantastic though
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Brian S t o t t e r
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#37 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 2:45 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:11 pm
Tariffs have been a real killer on the Falkensteins, which I think are up the full tariff percentage from the previous year's retail prices.

JJ Prum pricing for whatever reason is most congruous with pricing in Germany. I can't say I'd be a huge buyer if those pricing differences existed here in the US. There's a lot of producers that I like as much as Prum, but older Prum convince me to continue buying. Hopefully they have been maintaining their same age worthiness.

Also count me as another not-afan of the 07 Tondonia. 06 was really fantastic though
From what Rob Panzer and others have told me, winemaking style is unchanged at JJ Prum since Katharina took over. How climate change may affect their longevity may be the bigger question.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#38 Post by Cris Whetstone » September 3rd, 2020, 2:55 pm

Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:07 pm
I am surprised on how the discourse on LdH evolved. I agreed with the original inclusion of LdH on the list, and given that I have 2007 LdH 375s to be shipped once it cooled down, it was a sad report.

Anyone hve a different (i.e., postive) experience with LdH Tondonia 2007 - Cellartracker has a few strong reviews but inconsistent overall.
Personally, I thought it was a big step up from the '06. I wasn't super impressed with the '06 but I only tried it once. I think the '07 is a better cellar candidate.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#39 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 3rd, 2020, 3:03 pm

Cris Whetstone wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:55 pm
Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:07 pm
I am surprised on how the discourse on LdH evolved. I agreed with the original inclusion of LdH on the list, and given that I have 2007 LdH 375s to be shipped once it cooled down, it was a sad report.

Anyone hve a different (i.e., postive) experience with LdH Tondonia 2007 - Cellartracker has a few strong reviews but inconsistent overall.
Personally, I thought it was a big step up from the '06. I wasn't super impressed with the '06 but I only tried it once. I think the '07 is a better cellar candidate.
Now I really have to get one. I thought ‘06 Tondonia was quite good the couple times I’ve had it although not as good as ‘04, and just in the last 2 weeks I found ‘06 Bosconia had a clear step on ‘07 (with the newly arrived ‘08 on deck to try this week).

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#40 Post by Howard Cooper » September 3rd, 2020, 3:05 pm

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:45 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:24 pm
Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:01 pm


What does a "normal" year look like for you? [wow.gif]

I think I have about 8 cases waiting to come in and I thought that was a lot.
Wow. I received my first offering of 2019 German wines this week and it was just from one producer - Falkenstein. Got an assorted case, but I am way behind you guys. Have you seen wines in the US from Zilliken or Schloss Lieser?
No. Panzer told me he isn't getting Zilliken anymore since they're being imported by Loosen Bros. now. Haven't seen Schloss Lieser anywhere.

I've ordered Max Ferd Richter, Falkenstein, JJ Prum, Willi Schaefer (awaiting confirmation), and Vollenweider (awaiting confirmation).
Since Schloss Lieser is now imported by Skurnik https://www.skurnik.com/producer/schloss-lieser/ I would think they would be easier to find. Distribution in this country of German wines has really gotten messed up the last couple of years.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#41 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » September 3rd, 2020, 3:09 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:05 pm
Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:45 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:24 pm


Wow. I received my first offering of 2019 German wines this week and it was just from one producer - Falkenstein. Got an assorted case, but I am way behind you guys. Have you seen wines in the US from Zilliken or Schloss Lieser?
No. Panzer told me he isn't getting Zilliken anymore since they're being imported by Loosen Bros. now. Haven't seen Schloss Lieser anywhere.

I've ordered Max Ferd Richter, Falkenstein, JJ Prum, Willi Schaefer (awaiting confirmation), and Vollenweider (awaiting confirmation).
Since Schloss Lieser is now imported by Skurnik https://www.skurnik.com/producer/schloss-lieser/ I would think they would be easier to find. Distribution in this country of German wines has really gotten messed up the last couple of years.
Indeed.

I haven’t made an honest attempt to look to see who has the 2019s, since I’ve allocated my “budget” elsewhere. A couple 2016 Schloss Lieser Kabinett in the next couple weeks may change that.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#42 Post by Cris Whetstone » September 3rd, 2020, 3:13 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:03 pm
Cris Whetstone wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:55 pm
Barry L i p t o n wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:07 pm
I am surprised on how the discourse on LdH evolved. I agreed with the original inclusion of LdH on the list, and given that I have 2007 LdH 375s to be shipped once it cooled down, it was a sad report.

Anyone hve a different (i.e., postive) experience with LdH Tondonia 2007 - Cellartracker has a few strong reviews but inconsistent overall.
Personally, I thought it was a big step up from the '06. I wasn't super impressed with the '06 but I only tried it once. I think the '07 is a better cellar candidate.
Now I really have to get one. I thought ‘06 Tondonia was quite good the couple times I’ve had it although not as good as ‘04, and just in the last 2 weeks I found ‘06 Bosconia had a clear step on ‘07 (with the newly arrived ‘08 on deck to try this week).
I found the Bosconia to be similar if not as extreme. '07 > '06. It's interesting that they seem to release these on regular schedule 12 years post vintage, or at least have been recently while they hold the gran reservas when they feel they are ready. The fruit in the '07's just seemed fresher and with more structure. I think the '06's might have been better closer to vintage.

But it could have just been bottle variability. Maybe I had bad luck with the seals on the '06's I opened.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#43 Post by Chris Seiber » September 3rd, 2020, 3:17 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:04 pm
Let’s put it this way, in the last 22 vintages I have bought a low of 6 cases and a high of 64.
[swoon.gif]

For yourself? What is your current inventory of Riesling?

64 cases in one vintage is more than two bottles of riesling for every day of the year.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#44 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 3rd, 2020, 3:22 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:52 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:39 pm


I don't know if it's best but winecellarage has a bunch now.
That is where I got mine.
I had a bunch of 2019 JJP in my cart but bought some Alzinger Gruner and a half case of 2007 JJP WS Kabinett instead.
I just pulled the trigger on the 19 Prum WS Kab and Spat at Wine Cellarage.

Prices are up about 40% since 15. So taking out tariffs a 15% increase isn’t much.

Von Schubert and Schaefer are also very reasonable considering the track record. And Falkenstein is still stupid cheap even with tariffs and shrinking allocations.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#45 Post by DanielP » September 3rd, 2020, 3:26 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:22 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 1:52 pm


That is where I got mine.
I had a bunch of 2019 JJP in my cart but bought some Alzinger Gruner and a half case of 2007 JJP WS Kabinett instead.
I just pulled the trigger on the 19 Prum WS Kab and Spat at Wine Cellarage.

Prices are up about 40% since 15. So taking out tariffs a 15% increase isn’t much.

Von Schubert and Schaefer are also very reasonable considering the track record. And Falkenstein is still stupid cheap even with tariffs and shrinking allocations.
With all the Falkenstein allocations of various casks split up all across the city/country, it's ridiculous how many different retailers I've had to use to cobble together a collection of the different cuvees I wanted.
P@ik

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#46 Post by Michael S. Monie » September 3rd, 2020, 3:29 pm

Any thoughts on JJ Prum's wines from 2003 and 2004? I seem to remember Broadbent thinking that they were not everything that they should have been.
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#47 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 3rd, 2020, 3:31 pm

Cris Whetstone wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:13 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:03 pm
Cris Whetstone wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:55 pm


Personally, I thought it was a big step up from the '06. I wasn't super impressed with the '06 but I only tried it once. I think the '07 is a better cellar candidate.
Now I really have to get one. I thought ‘06 Tondonia was quite good the couple times I’ve had it although not as good as ‘04, and just in the last 2 weeks I found ‘06 Bosconia had a clear step on ‘07 (with the newly arrived ‘08 on deck to try this week).
I found the Bosconia to be similar if not as extreme. '07 > '06. It's interesting that they seem to release these on regular schedule 12 years post vintage, or at least have been recently while they hold the gran reservas when they feel they are ready. The fruit in the '07's just seemed fresher and with more structure. I think the '06's might have been better closer to vintage.

But it could have just been bottle variability. Maybe I had bad luck with the seals on the '06's I opened.
I had the exact opposite impression on the Bosconia. I found ‘06 more precise, fresher, and with more reserve in the tank. Which isn’t to say I didn’t get a weak bottle of ‘07 (maybe I did) or it won’t come together. (I had 2 ‘06s in the last 6 weeks or so with same impression of both.) I tend to have faith in anything LdH. Check back in 30 years!

The GRs are on a ~20 year release cycle now. The ‘01s should come out next year.

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#48 Post by JonathanG » September 3rd, 2020, 3:33 pm

hey, the dude loves his Riesling! Fair play to him!
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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#49 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 3rd, 2020, 3:34 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:26 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:22 pm
Jay Miller wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm


I had a bunch of 2019 JJP in my cart but bought some Alzinger Gruner and a half case of 2007 JJP WS Kabinett instead.
I just pulled the trigger on the 19 Prum WS Kab and Spat at Wine Cellarage.

Prices are up about 40% since 15. So taking out tariffs a 15% increase isn’t much.

Von Schubert and Schaefer are also very reasonable considering the track record. And Falkenstein is still stupid cheap even with tariffs and shrinking allocations.
With all the Falkenstein allocations of various casks split up all across the city/country, it's ridiculous how many different retailers I've had to use to cobble together a collection of the different cuvees I wanted.
Same. Plus I will be making a trip to Boston at some point this fall to collect the spoils!

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Re: J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

#50 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » September 3rd, 2020, 3:38 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 3:17 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 3rd, 2020, 12:04 pm
Let’s put it this way, in the last 22 vintages I have bought a low of 6 cases and a high of 64.
[swoon.gif]

For yourself? What is your current inventory of Riesling?

64 cases in one vintage is more than two bottles of riesling for every day of the year.
Fortunately, he's likely not intending to drink them all in one year! ;-)
Sort of ITB - my husband imports a small amount of sake and I help out

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