Smoke taint 2020...

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#201 Post by Richard Jen » September 10th, 2020, 7:33 pm

I remember reading Brian defending 2017 vintage on this board and how people doubted/questioned. That fire started early October...

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#202 Post by Brian Tuite » September 10th, 2020, 8:28 pm

Richard Jen wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 7:33 pm
I remember reading Brian defending 2017 vintage on this board and how people doubted/questioned. That fire started early October...
And your point being?
In ‘17 most the fruit in Sonoma County had been picked, Pinot Noir was already in barrel and people were unfairly drawing comparisons to 2008. Perspective is not a bad thing.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#203 Post by Richard Jen » September 10th, 2020, 8:38 pm

My point being how people unfairly judge. I was new to this board and was in doubt. Ended up with quite a lot 2017 Sonoma bottles.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#204 Post by Brian Tuite » September 10th, 2020, 8:47 pm

————— [thumbs-up.gif] Got it!

Richard Jen wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:38 pm
My point being how people unfairly judge. I was new to this board and was in doubt. Ended up with quite a lot 2017 Sonoma bottles.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#205 Post by larry schaffer » September 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm

As with anything else in life, it is always best to do your own homework - even here on this board. One person's 'perfect wine' is another's 85 pointer - and they are both correct because it is their opinion.

We still don't really know what to expect with vintage 2020 - and it's simply too early to tell. And no one person on this board knows what to expect of the vintage as a whole - just their own sphere.

Cheers.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#206 Post by Mike C. » September 10th, 2020, 9:09 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm
As with anything else in life, it is always best to do your own homework - even here on this board. One person's 'perfect wine' is another's 85 pointer - and they are both correct because it is their opinion.

We still don't really know what to expect with vintage 2020 - and it's simply too early to tell. And no one person on this board knows what to expect of the vintage as a whole - just their own sphere.

Cheers.
And even if there is “smoke taint”, the wine can still be pretty compelling. The way people want their brisket to absorb as much smoke as possible to enhance the flavor, some “smoke taint” can be interesting to experience in wine. You may not want a case, but a bottle or two to explore can be interesting for a wine geek.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#207 Post by Andrew Demaree » September 10th, 2020, 9:10 pm

I see Lamborn, up on Howell Mountain, announced today that they won’t be making any wines this year because of the smoke taint in their vineyards. I wonder if that will be true for many others up there.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#208 Post by Sean_S » September 10th, 2020, 9:39 pm

Wow. Just stunned. We evacuated the CZU fire in CA for UT and there's been some craziness here as well, but nothing mind blowing like in the SCM (my home) or Oregon. Sorry sad for the McHenry Family, Big Basin, Bouregard, Rhys, and so many more. Talking with other local wine makers this seems to be just the beginning, So sad as a wine geek, so sad for my friends and neighbors.

I feel so fortunate to be safe and able to offer shelter for some other CA refugees. The only positive part of this is I have friends to drink good wine with now.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#209 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 8:06 am

Mike C. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 9:09 pm
larry schaffer wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm
As with anything else in life, it is always best to do your own homework - even here on this board. One person's 'perfect wine' is another's 85 pointer - and they are both correct because it is their opinion.

We still don't really know what to expect with vintage 2020 - and it's simply too early to tell. And no one person on this board knows what to expect of the vintage as a whole - just their own sphere.

Cheers.
And even if there is “smoke taint”, the wine can still be pretty compelling. The way people want their brisket to absorb as much smoke as possible to enhance the flavor, some “smoke taint” can be interesting to experience in wine. You may not want a case, but a bottle or two to explore can be interesting for a wine geek.
Unless it’s Pinot Noir or Chardonnay.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#210 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 8:08 am

larry schaffer wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm
As with anything else in life, it is always best to do your own homework - even here on this board. One person's 'perfect wine' is another's 85 pointer - and they are both correct because it is their opinion.

We still don't really know what to expect with vintage 2020 - and it's simply too early to tell. And no one person on this board knows what to expect of the vintage as a whole - just their own sphere.

Cheers.
Oh definitely. I haven’t seen anyone defending 2020 here yet.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#211 Post by Jeff_M. » September 11th, 2020, 8:10 am

Andrew Demaree wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 9:10 pm
I see Lamborn, up on Howell Mountain, announced today that they won’t be making any wines this year because of the smoke taint in their vineyards. I wonder if that will be true for many others up there.
Neal announced the same on August 31st. Have to imagine with 2 Howell Mountain wineries cancelling their 2020 vintage that we will see more of the same.

What struck me about Neal's announcement is they also cancelled their valley floor harvest.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#212 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 8:20 am

Myriad picking Pellet this morning.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#213 Post by Anthony C » September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am

Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#214 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am

Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#215 Post by Anthony C » September 11th, 2020, 9:04 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am
Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
Thanks.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#216 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 9:05 am

Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:04 am
Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am
Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
Thanks.
You’ll get smoky aromas after some bottle time but full bodied reds like Syrah and Cab can work through that a bit. Just not the flavor.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#217 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 11th, 2020, 9:09 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am
Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
Plus, it's not part of the aroma-flavor profile and because of that becomes a dominant profile. For me it's very much like a low level of TCA, you can clearly smell-taste it and it simply doesn't fit so it becomes what you perceive. Also, the phenolic compounds responsible for the smoke taint are tenacious. They never integrate or disappear with age.

Tom

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#218 Post by Wes Barton » September 11th, 2020, 10:19 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am
Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
It depends on the fuels sources. The compounds can vary by what plants are burning. The most common pair are common in wine aged in toasted oak, so a low level in certain wines, some of the time, might not stand out at all. It definitely can present as the same smoke character as smoked meats and rauch bier. Some wines like that could pair with the right food. But, bitterness and cigar ash are also common. That can ruin a wine. It can also seem "okay" at first, but build up on the palate quickly.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#219 Post by Alan Rath » September 11th, 2020, 10:46 am

Wes Barton wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 10:19 am
Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am
Anthony C wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:56 am
Newb question here: does the smoke taint taste like smoke flavor in ribs / pulled pork / smoked gouda or is it the more acrid flavors you get if you over-grill vegetables or burn garlic?

Obviously the former would not make for a long-ageing fine wine, but I could see some market for that juice. When I smoke meats I find pairing wines difficult because all I'm smelling is the smoke wood from being around it all day. The latter example, not so much.

Definitely feeling bad for all of you making tough decisions. As if this year wasn't bad enough . . .
The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
It depends on the fuels sources. The compounds can vary by what plants are burning. The most common pair are common in wine aged in toasted oak, so a low level in certain wines, some of the time, might not stand out at all. It definitely can present as the same smoke character as smoked meats and rauch bier. Some wines like that could pair with the right food. But, bitterness and cigar ash are also common. That can ruin a wine. It can also seem "okay" at first, but build up on the palate quickly.
As Wes says, it can vary. Most of the instances of smoke taint I’ve experienced are from vineyards that were fairly distant from the source of the smoke. In those cases it tends to be a note of fireplace ash, more akin to what comes off you smoker. You don’t tend to find wines made from sources much closer to fires, those might be more acrid and bitter.

I posted a note recently on a Syrah that had a mild amount of taint. While I wouldn’t want to see this routinely, in this wine it actually works. Syrah is one of the few varieties I think you could get away with this.

viewtopic.php?t=172916
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#220 Post by brigcampbell » September 11th, 2020, 12:27 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 10:46 am
I posted a note recently on a Syrah that had a mild amount of taint. While I wouldn’t want to see this routinely, in this wine it actually works. Syrah is one of the few varieties I think you could get away with this.

viewtopic.php?t=172916
the aromas of curried meat, jerky, and even campfire are fun in small amounts in a syrah especially when paring with grilled food, sausage, juice burger, etc.

But smoke taint, and I've only had 3-4 bottles, took "campfire" to the extreme. It was overwhelming and not enjoyably and that was in a syrah.

Can't imagine PN or Chardonnay with significant smoke taint would even be approachable but we'll find out soon enough at Trader Joe's in 18 months when this stuff gets bulked out.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#221 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 1:05 pm

Just got through speaking with Chuck Giovanetti, he has 8 acres of mixed blacks just off Olivet Rd. He said Neighbors on both sides of him tested positive at 1.1 but they were Pinot. His test results come back in 5 days. St Francis told him anything .5 or more they won’t take. His fruit was at 25° Monday but since then it’s been relatively cool mid 60s low 70s with low 50s at night. He’s hoping for the best but is not very optimistic. He’ll have up to 25 tons available if anyone wants to take a chance.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#222 Post by Craig G » September 11th, 2020, 1:24 pm

We stayed in Anderson Valley several years ago and one of the wineries was serving a smoke tainted 2008 (with full disclosure) in their tasting room. I believe they would sell it there too, but the bottles and price list were clearly marked.

It really smelled like a barbecue and it tasted okay, though I think the aftertaste of smoke was somewhat annoying. I think this wine was a Pinot Noir though I can’t remember for sure.

Given that we char barrels, it would make sense that any grape that takes well to oak could have some amount of smoke taint without ruining the wine, but I think it gets out of hand quickly.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#223 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 11th, 2020, 1:48 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 10:46 am
Wes Barton wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 10:19 am
Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 9:00 am


The flavor of smoke taint is a bitterness rather than a smokiness.
It depends on the fuels sources. The compounds can vary by what plants are burning. The most common pair are common in wine aged in toasted oak, so a low level in certain wines, some of the time, might not stand out at all. It definitely can present as the same smoke character as smoked meats and rauch bier. Some wines like that could pair with the right food. But, bitterness and cigar ash are also common. That can ruin a wine. It can also seem "okay" at first, but build up on the palate quickly.
As Wes says, it can vary. Most of the instances of smoke taint I’ve experienced are from vineyards that were fairly distant from the source of the smoke. In those cases it tends to be a note of fireplace ash, more akin to what comes off you smoker. You don’t tend to find wines made from sources much closer to fires, those might be more acrid and bitter.

I posted a note recently on a Syrah that had a mild amount of taint. While I wouldn’t want to see this routinely, in this wine it actually works. Syrah is one of the few varieties I think you could get away with this.

viewtopic.php?t=172916
I have never tasted a wine that was smoke tainted that had grilled meats or wood char or similar aromas-flavors. I guess it’s possible in theory but near impossible for it to actually happen.

Kinda like the pyrazines in 2004 burgundy. There is no real “acceptable” level. If you taste them, it’s too high.

Tom

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#224 Post by Brent S » September 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm

Trader Joe's and other discount stores are going to have a ton of bargain wines that nobody has ever previously heard of on the shelf in a few years featuring the 2020 vintage and several premium appellations on the labels. I'm guessing that these low-taint grapes will be "just fine" for low end bottles.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#225 Post by Brian Tuite » September 11th, 2020, 3:48 pm

Brent S wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Trader Joe's and other discount stores are going to have a ton of bargain wines that nobody has ever previously heard of on the shelf in a few years featuring the 2020 vintage and several premium appellations on the labels. I'm guessing that these low-taint grapes will be "just fine" for low end bottles.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#226 Post by KyleC » September 11th, 2020, 3:51 pm

Carole Meredith wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 4:35 pm
In young wine, the smoke taint cannot be smelled because the grapes attach sugar molecules to the smoke taint molecules and these "bound" forms are odorless. The taint can often be detected in the mouth (but not the nose) because enzymes in saliva can break the two components apart again, leaving the smoke taint molecules unbound and able to be smelled retronasally.
1. Great info
2. So cool Carole Meredith is on WB dropping knowledge! [worship.gif]

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#227 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » September 11th, 2020, 3:59 pm

KyleC wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:51 pm
So cool Carole Meredith is on WB dropping knowledge! [worship.gif]
I agree completely!

And it's consistent with our motto around here:

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#228 Post by Andrew Demaree » September 11th, 2020, 9:50 pm

Sounds like Black Sears, up on Howell Mountain, has also decided to not make any 2020 wines.

What a financial blow for some of these smaller, family run wineries. So sad.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#229 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 11th, 2020, 11:55 pm

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:06 am
Mike C. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 9:09 pm
larry schaffer wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm
As with anything else in life, it is always best to do your own homework - even here on this board. One person's 'perfect wine' is another's 85 pointer - and they are both correct because it is their opinion.

We still don't really know what to expect with vintage 2020 - and it's simply too early to tell. And no one person on this board knows what to expect of the vintage as a whole - just their own sphere.

Cheers.
And even if there is “smoke taint”, the wine can still be pretty compelling. The way people want their brisket to absorb as much smoke as possible to enhance the flavor, some “smoke taint” can be interesting to experience in wine. You may not want a case, but a bottle or two to explore can be interesting for a wine geek.
Unless it’s Pinot Noir or Chardonnay.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#230 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 11th, 2020, 11:57 pm

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:48 pm
Brent S wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Trader Joe's and other discount stores are going to have a ton of bargain wines that nobody has ever previously heard of on the shelf in a few years featuring the 2020 vintage and several premium appellations on the labels. I'm guessing that these low-taint grapes will be "just fine" for low end bottles.
leNegoce 2020!
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Joking...I hope

Full disclosure, even if we don’t have smoke taint, the vintage in WV will be a challenge. My first pick came in at 1.24 tons per acre. Yields are way down, so while I do believe we are dodging a bullet on taint, the fruit we do have will not be much.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#231 Post by Wes Barton » September 12th, 2020, 6:28 am

What seasonal cues do grapevines pick up on? All these days of no sun. Temps are down because of it, but not near late season temps.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#232 Post by Paul Gordon » September 12th, 2020, 3:29 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 6:28 am
What seasonal cues do grapevines pick up on? All these days of no sun. Temps are down because of it, but not near late season temps.
Wes

From my observation, vines react to the nighttime lows. When we get a cold late September storm front, the associated temps go down to around 40F and that tends to trigger the start of the fall shutdown. No sign that the highs in the 60s, low in the 50s, as we experience early in the week, is having any effect.
Btw our place is clearing today for the first time since Tuesday. It is in the mid-80s, sun is breaking thru and onshore wind is picking up.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#233 Post by Kevin Harvey » September 12th, 2020, 3:56 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
September 9th, 2020, 8:39 am
Kevin Harvey wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:35 pm
Al Osterheld wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:30 pm
I'm very sorry to hear, Kevin. At least that line of redwoods kept the fire from moving closer to winery and vineyards in the SCM.
-Al
Thanks Al (and everyone else!). As bad as it is, it could have been a lot worse. Those Pescadero Creek redwoods saved Alpine and Horseshoe.
Kevin, so sorry to hear about the SCM vineyards. Huge bummer, but the properties being ok is an immense silver lining. How did your AV properties fare? Did the deep end avoid the worst of the smoke?
Rich,
There was very little smoke in the Deep End until the last week or so. We have completely picked Bearwallow (finished two nights ago) and tests have come back negative. I am very optimistic that we will be able to make some smoke free Bearwallow this year. We were also able to pick Mt Pajaro (our first vineyard to ripen this year) before the smoke set in and it has also tested clean. So we will have some wine this year and I am grateful for that.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#234 Post by M. Dildine » September 12th, 2020, 3:58 pm

Kevin Harvey wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 3:56 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
September 9th, 2020, 8:39 am
Kevin Harvey wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 7:35 pm

Thanks Al (and everyone else!). As bad as it is, it could have been a lot worse. Those Pescadero Creek redwoods saved Alpine and Horseshoe.
Kevin, so sorry to hear about the SCM vineyards. Huge bummer, but the properties being ok is an immense silver lining. How did your AV properties fare? Did the deep end avoid the worst of the smoke?
Rich,
There was very little smoke in the Deep End until the last week or so. We have completely picked Bearwallow (finished two nights ago) and tests have come back negative. I am very optimistic that we will be able to make some smoke free Bearwallow this year. We were also able to pick Mt Pajaro (our first vineyard to ripen this year) before the smoke set in and it has also tested clean. So we will have some wine this year and I am grateful for that.
Excellent news Kevin!
Cheers,

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#235 Post by Kevin Harvey » September 12th, 2020, 3:58 pm

B. Buzzini wrote:
September 9th, 2020, 11:35 am
Kevin Harvey wrote:
September 8th, 2020, 6:41 pm
We are not picking fruit at Family Farm, Skyline, Alpine, Horseshoe or Centennial Mtn. Very painful but I guess it could be worse.

I hope other wineries are faring better. This is pretty devastating for everyone.
Sorry to hear that Kevin. Congrats on the 2018 scores from Vinous though! 99pts Horseshoe ungrafted pinot... [thumbs-up.gif]
Thank you Brian!!
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#236 Post by Jim Anderson » September 12th, 2020, 7:17 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 11:57 pm
Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:48 pm
Brent S wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Trader Joe's and other discount stores are going to have a ton of bargain wines that nobody has ever previously heard of on the shelf in a few years featuring the 2020 vintage and several premium appellations on the labels. I'm guessing that these low-taint grapes will be "just fine" for low end bottles.
leNegoce 2020!
2020 Goodfellow Rauch-vin

Joking...I hope

Full disclosure, even if we don’t have smoke taint, the vintage in WV will be a challenge. My first pick came in at 1.24 tons per acre. Yields are way down, so while I do believe we are dodging a bullet on taint, the fruit we do have will not be much.
Guessing that was Durant as I saw you picked. The Dundee Hills are way down. It’s so variable. I picked a 2.7 acre block of Dijon 943 on the 9th and had it pegged at 2 tons/acre. Came in at 3.2 tons/acre. I definitely have stuff at over 2.25 tons/acre at the Estate. I’m trying to remain optimistic. There is no choice but to pick everything. We’ve been told, I believe as Marcus noted, that turn around times on samples are weeks out. I’ve read and talked to people and it’s great and helpful and, ultimately, anecdotal. There’s no established science to this beyond the testing. Rule of thumb is good. Hopefully we will be okay and the wines will be all right. This aside, 2020 would/could/should/might be an awesome vintage in Oregon.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#237 Post by brigcampbell » September 13th, 2020, 12:54 pm

Brent S wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Trader Joe's and other discount stores are going to have a ton of bargain wines that nobody has ever previously heard of on the shelf in a few years featuring the 2020 vintage and several premium appellations on the labels. I'm guessing that these low-taint grapes will be "just fine" for low end bottles.
Yes and they are in a position to "engineer" some of that smoke taint out in the lab and blend to their hearts content.

People that regular purchase PN from TJ don't care if the bottle is RRV or California.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#238 Post by Eric Lundblad » September 13th, 2020, 1:30 pm

My Chardonnay is being picked tomorrow/Monday...expect it'll come in at mid 21 brix or so. It's had very little time around smoke, when the near-ish fires we're going, due to its proximity to the coast and location (west of Sebastopol). It's been around smoke more lately, but that was far away smoke, and the smoke loses its taint mojo after a 'short' time, so that shouldn't be an issue. Still, I'm going to keep the first and last 10% of the juice out of the press separate, just in case I need to make an offering to the Smoke Gods! I'll cross my fingers as well, in case that helps.

Great to hear my/Gregs/Pauls/etc comments helped out Marcus, thanks!
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#239 Post by Fred Scherrer » September 13th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Eric Lundblad wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 1:30 pm
My Chardonnay is being picked tomorrow/Monday...expect it'll come in at mid 21 brix or so. It's had very little time around smoke, when the near-ish fires we're going, due to its proximity to the coast and location (west of Sebastopol). It's been around smoke more lately, but that was far away smoke, and the smoke loses its taint mojo after a 'short' time, so that shouldn't be an issue. Still, I'm going to keep the first and last 10% of the juice out of the press separate, just in case I need to make an offering to the Smoke Gods! I'll cross my fingers as well, in case that helps.

Great to hear my/Gregs/Pauls/etc comments helped out Marcus, thanks!
Eric,

Based on my experiences and observations this year, I think you'll be fine in that location.

F

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#240 Post by Mattstolz » September 13th, 2020, 2:52 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 11:57 pm


2020 Goodfellow Rauch-vin

Joking...I hope

Full disclosure, even if we don’t have smoke taint, the vintage in WV will be a challenge. My first pick came in at 1.24 tons per acre. Yields are way down, so while I do believe we are dodging a bullet on taint, the fruit we do have will not be much.
Jim Anderson wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 7:17 pm


Guessing that was Durant as I saw you picked. The Dundee Hills are way down. It’s so variable. I picked a 2.7 acre block of Dijon 943 on the 9th and had it pegged at 2 tons/acre. Came in at 3.2 tons/acre. I definitely have stuff at over 2.25 tons/acre at the Estate. I’m trying to remain optimistic. There is no choice but to pick everything. We’ve been told, I believe as Marcus noted, that turn around times on samples are weeks out. I’ve read and talked to people and it’s great and helpful and, ultimately, anecdotal. There’s no established science to this beyond the testing. Rule of thumb is good. Hopefully we will be okay and the wines will be all right. This aside, 2020 would/could/should/might be an awesome vintage in Oregon.

I was curious how the two of you are feeling about the vintage now with the last week or so... has the smoke and associated sunlight loss pushed back pick dates at all?

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#241 Post by Jim Anderson » September 13th, 2020, 2:59 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 2:52 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 11:57 pm


2020 Goodfellow Rauch-vin

Joking...I hope

Full disclosure, even if we don’t have smoke taint, the vintage in WV will be a challenge. My first pick came in at 1.24 tons per acre. Yields are way down, so while I do believe we are dodging a bullet on taint, the fruit we do have will not be much.
Jim Anderson wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 7:17 pm


Guessing that was Durant as I saw you picked. The Dundee Hills are way down. It’s so variable. I picked a 2.7 acre block of Dijon 943 on the 9th and had it pegged at 2 tons/acre. Came in at 3.2 tons/acre. I definitely have stuff at over 2.25 tons/acre at the Estate. I’m trying to remain optimistic. There is no choice but to pick everything. We’ve been told, I believe as Marcus noted, that turn around times on samples are weeks out. I’ve read and talked to people and it’s great and helpful and, ultimately, anecdotal. There’s no established science to this beyond the testing. Rule of thumb is good. Hopefully we will be okay and the wines will be all right. This aside, 2020 would/could/should/might be an awesome vintage in Oregon.

I was curious how the two of you are feeling about the vintage now with the last week or so... has the smoke and associated sunlight loss pushed back pick dates at all?
Yes.

It’s getting dicey up here. Wineries are bailing on vineyard contracts. So I hear. Can’t get smoke taint tests before picking so it’s best guess time.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#242 Post by Eric Lundblad » September 13th, 2020, 3:09 pm

Fred Scherrer wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Eric,

Based on my experiences and observations this year, I think you'll be fine in that location.

F
Thanks Fred! I always appreciate your thoughts, and esp your wines.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#243 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 14th, 2020, 10:59 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 2:52 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 11:57 pm


2020 Goodfellow Rauch-vin

Joking...I hope

Full disclosure, even if we don’t have smoke taint, the vintage in WV will be a challenge. My first pick came in at 1.24 tons per acre. Yields are way down, so while I do believe we are dodging a bullet on taint, the fruit we do have will not be much.
Jim Anderson wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 7:17 pm


Guessing that was Durant as I saw you picked. The Dundee Hills are way down. It’s so variable. I picked a 2.7 acre block of Dijon 943 on the 9th and had it pegged at 2 tons/acre. Came in at 3.2 tons/acre. I definitely have stuff at over 2.25 tons/acre at the Estate. I’m trying to remain optimistic. There is no choice but to pick everything. We’ve been told, I believe as Marcus noted, that turn around times on samples are weeks out. I’ve read and talked to people and it’s great and helpful and, ultimately, anecdotal. There’s no established science to this beyond the testing. Rule of thumb is good. Hopefully we will be okay and the wines will be all right. This aside, 2020 would/could/should/might be an awesome vintage in Oregon.

I was curious how the two of you are feeling about the vintage now with the last week or so... has the smoke and associated sunlight loss pushed back pick dates at all?
Set this year is small, (and my first numbers were indeed from Durant) but well matched to the growing conditions, until the fires.

But because we had good sun in April, lots of moisture in May and early June, and then a cool growing season until end of August when we suddenly got hot and windy. It looked like harvest would race and sugars would outpace flavors a bit.

The smoke has certainly altered that, slowing things down.

The smoke sucks. But as Eric pointed out, it’s a proximity thing, so we stand a good chance of dodging the bullet. If not, life will be harder. But it is a little different in Oregon. Dick and Patricia at Whistling Ridge are 93 and 86, so I’m not rejecting the fruit no matter what. That’s not a jab at anybody, it just a reality that they are like my family, so we’re taking the fruit.

It’s really just a matter of doing the best job we can and cutting losses as soon as possible, if we get any confirmation of smoke taint. Otherwise, the possibilty for great wines was established early on in the growing season, and other than the fires(a dramatic possibility for sure) nothing has altered that.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#244 Post by B. Buzzini » September 22nd, 2020, 8:26 am

Hello brian,

It's been a bit since my last video blog. I decided to wait a while so I could get a better grip on the smoke situation, as well as the quality of the vintage. It's getting "crunch time" and already I have one lot in tank, with Moulds coming off on Wednesday.

Smoke has been in the valley for a month now. The smoke looks more like bad smog than the scary-looking smoke from 2017, although it has been lingering much longer than it did in 2017 and this could be a problem.

No one really knows the "taint" situation yet. Many have been doing micro-ferments in 5 gallon buckets and making judgements, but that is not exactly a great way to make wine. In addition, the backup at the lab is 15-25 days, so whatever results you have is essentially looking far-back in the rear view mirror and of minimal use now.

We are all flying blind and have to make harvest (and business) decisions with very incomplete data.

In this video I show you what the smoke looks like from the valley floor and from the hills, as well as evaluating the issues growers and small wineries like myself are facing in this challenging environment. I walk a few vineyards and evaluate their fruit while paying special attention to every effort Moulds Family Vineyard is making to give us the best fruit they can.

Hope you find this video informative!

Meursault-head!

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#245 Post by Matt A » September 22nd, 2020, 8:48 am

Thanks for the video share.
Sucks to hear ZERO fruit from Houyi Vineyard this year. Nine Suns is one of my favorites. 😕
It will be interesting how their neighbors on Pritchard Hill handle this.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#246 Post by Jeff_M. » September 22nd, 2020, 8:54 am

I think 2020 CA fire zone reds are going to be extremely tough sales to folks like us. 2017 was a much different situation in that quite a bit of the fruit was already harvested. With so much exposure to smoke taint, I myself will be very leery of purchasing 2020 in any sizeable quantity. This isn't a knock on the wineries, I just do not wish to encounter smoke tainted wine 10-20 years down the road.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#247 Post by Al Osterheld » September 22nd, 2020, 9:11 am

The wineries that sell a lot DTC should consider organizing Zoom tastings of samples shortly before the wine will be released. If they are transparent about their circumstances and any mitigation methods they used, that would go a long way toward reassuring potential buyers.

-Al

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#248 Post by Casey Hartlip » September 22nd, 2020, 3:42 pm

Very informative. Pretty much spells out the issues facing all of us ITB. I'm hearing a bit more optimistic views as wines and micro ferments are finishing up. I think our region of Anderson Valley is going to be fine. We only really had a couple of smokey days (air quality numbers of 150-160) and the marine influence certainly had to help. I have my own T bin of clone 23 fermenting in my shop, as well as 510 tons picked for contract clients. Some wineries in our region canceled contracts without any proof, of course we know the delay with ETS. Another angle on this is many wineries sales haven't been good and have been backed up on inventory and see skipping the vintage as a way to deal it.
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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#249 Post by Paul Gordon » September 22nd, 2020, 7:43 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 11:55 pm
Brian Tuite wrote:
September 11th, 2020, 8:06 am
Mike C. wrote:
September 10th, 2020, 9:09 pm


And even if there is “smoke taint”, the wine can still be pretty compelling. The way people want their brisket to absorb as much smoke as possible to enhance the flavor, some “smoke taint” can be interesting to experience in wine. You may not want a case, but a bottle or two to explore can be interesting for a wine geek.
Unless it’s Pinot Noir or Chardonnay.
Damn it...

I think we are ok, but can’t say for sure. But I really want to say how helpful the posts from California winemakers here are to all of us in Oregon right now. You had my sympathies earlier(and still do) but I really owe Greg, Eric, Paul Gordon, and a few others a big thank you. Your prior experience is something completely lacking up here. I’ve used Paul Gordon’s rule of thumb about a million times in the last three days.
Marcus

Sorry I missed this post earlier. Glad to share the knowledge. I hope we can all share experiences and data points this vintage. It will help everyone of us when we inevitably experience wildfire effects again in the future.
We sent our micro-ferment sample to a Seattle lab today. Paid an extra 50% to get a result by the end of the day Friday.

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Re: Smoke taint 2020...

#250 Post by Paul Gordon » September 22nd, 2020, 7:49 pm

Jeff_M. wrote:
September 22nd, 2020, 8:54 am
I think 2020 CA fire zone reds are going to be extremely tough sales to folks like us. 2017 was a much different situation in that quite a bit of the fruit was already harvested. With so much exposure to smoke taint, I myself will be very leery of purchasing 2020 in any sizeable quantity. This isn't a knock on the wineries, I just do not wish to encounter smoke tainted wine 10-20 years down the road.
Jeff

I think the key thing will be transparency. Wineries will need to be honest about taint test results to gain the confidence of their customers.
Btw I have seen no evidence of smoke taint appearing after 10-20 years. It pops out no later than 6-9 months after bottling.

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