Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#1 Post by Adam Frisch » July 28th, 2020, 10:33 pm

Oh, boy, am I gonna get it in the neck for this one. And I'm not even drunk, either, but I am pissed off. Those of you who get worked up over my Riesling rants, please read no further because this is the f-ing ultimate one.

Yesterday I had the 2018 Kuentz-Bas Riesling from Alsace. On the actual label from producer (or importer Kermit Lynch, I don't know who made up the fictional descriptors), the dryness scale arrow is pegged to the left. Like hard. Take a look at picture - it kinda can't go much more left than that. Then I read Wine.com's description:

"Bone-dry on the palate, it features intense clean aromas with excellent minerality."

OK. From importer Kermit Lynch's own website:

"Dry, steely Riesling"

It's like I'm in Jacob's Ladder or something where I'm the only one who sees the everyday monsters. "Oh, it's because you're mistaking alcohol levels for sweetness". No, I'm not. It's sugar - pure and simple. This is obviously sweet to everyone who has more than one taste bud and hasn't been living under a German/Alsatian Riesling tank all their lives. In no universe on this galaxy, or from under any rock, does this classify as "bone-dry".

It would all be fine if they hadn't taken my really hard-earned money yet again by using those buzzers: bone-dry, steely, etc - only to then serve up syrup. I'll take their word for it being "mineral" and having "clean aromas", because all I tasted was sugar, thanks. I mean, this is Kermit Lynch for chrissakes - if we can't trust professionals to know what bone-dry means, then what hope is there for humanity?

But this annoyance is good. It makes the objectives crystal clear moving forward. From now, I will dedicate my life, my faculties and my strength to the the production of bone-dry Rieslings! [wink.gif]
Attachments
Screen Shot 2020-07-28 at 8.53.35 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-07-28 at 8.57.22 PM.png
CU.jpg
IMG_8387.jpg
Last edited by Adam Frisch on July 29th, 2020, 6:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again..

#2 Post by DanielP » July 28th, 2020, 10:41 pm

At a certain point, the problem is with you, not with the labels. After only about the millionth complaint, you should know now that wines labeled as dry can still contain residual sugar.

Whether or not you think the labeling is too liberal is one thing. But at this point, if you're not getting actual residual sugar data before making riesling purchasing decisions, then you have no one to blame but yourself, so this rant rings a little hollow.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me about 30 times, and I'll make an entire post about how many times I've let myself be fooled?
P@ik

User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#3 Post by Adam Frisch » July 28th, 2020, 10:44 pm

OK, riddle me this - how do you get RS info? You can't reliably. If I could, problem would be solved. But as of now, they're stealing my money by labeling a wine with a meter that pegs to complete dryness, using words like bone-dry in descriptors, when it's obviously not.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#4 Post by DanielP » July 28th, 2020, 10:46 pm

Then reach out to the winery directly.

You've had your money "stolen" over and over again. Stop getting your money stolen.

Or better, drink more of the wines from producers who do produce your favored bone dry styles. Trimbach, for one.
P@ik

Todd Hamina
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 4325
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 2:16 pm
Location: McMinnville, OR

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#5 Post by Todd Hamina » July 28th, 2020, 10:58 pm

My Riesling is a zero zero and unfiltered...
Co-Owner, Biggio Hamina Cellars
-BiggioHamina

User avatar
Jeremy Holmes
Posts: 7044
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#6 Post by Jeremy Holmes » July 28th, 2020, 11:03 pm

I love the dry Rieslings of the Clare Valley for instance. But if you speak with some of the old-timers, they will tell you that you need just a little RS for the wine to age. Otherwise you end up with a skeleton and no flesh.
ITB

User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#7 Post by Adam Frisch » July 28th, 2020, 11:15 pm

Todd - had yours! [cheers.gif]

Jeremy - loved the Grosset Polish Hill last month. That's exactly how wonderful they can be! 0.9 g/L RS.

DanielP - is that really how a consumer needs to go about it in the year of the lord 2020? Having to call each producer individually to find out their sugar levels because whatever they put on their label can't be trusted?

I just registered www.knochentrocken.com [thumbs-up.gif] [dance-clap.gif]
Last edited by Adam Frisch on July 29th, 2020, 6:26 am, edited 5 times in total.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

User avatar
Jan Janas
Posts: 201
Joined: March 17th, 2020, 5:58 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#8 Post by Jan Janas » July 29th, 2020, 2:04 am

Drink less European Riesling, and more Australian. Happy days!

"knochentrocken" is good one by the way, should create a good page out of it 😂

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 36786
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#9 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 29th, 2020, 4:28 am

Normal human perception levels for sugar start at around 2 g/l. Perhaps you are a sugar super taster or something.

Anyway, I actually think you don’t like fruit, but that’s just my perception based on your posts.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Joshua Kates
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1523
Joined: October 30th, 2011, 6:31 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#10 Post by Joshua Kates » July 29th, 2020, 4:33 am

No, I have this same problem, too, whenever I dip into German Reisling, though I am sensitive to sugar. The sweetness always gets me and undermines the other admirable qualities I often do find in the wines.
Neils Bohr had a horseshoe over the door to his country house. A visiting student said to him: "you don't believe in that, do you?" Bohr replied, "of course not," and added, "but you don't have to believe in it for it to work."

User avatar
Otto Forsberg
Posts: 1243
Joined: December 28th, 2017, 4:26 am
Location: Finland

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#11 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 29th, 2020, 4:54 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 4:28 am
Anyway, I actually think you don’t like fruit, but that’s just my perception based on your posts.
+1

At least fruit typical of Riesling.

User avatar
David_K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 906
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 7:01 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#12 Post by David_K » July 29th, 2020, 5:26 am

I think it's pretty clear at this point Riesling is not for you. Please just accept it and move on to something else.
K@ntrОwi╦z

User avatar
Sean S y d n e y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 861
Joined: March 1st, 2020, 3:20 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#13 Post by Sean S y d n e y » July 29th, 2020, 5:47 am

[wink.gif]
Attachments
Screen Shot 2020-07-29 at 8.47.05 AM.png
Instagram: @seansydney

User avatar
TimF
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4214
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 5:18 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#14 Post by TimF » July 29th, 2020, 6:01 am

What’s the ABV on this wine?

Count me in the group that strongly dislikes dry Riesling.
Tim F@itsch

Nathan V.
Posts: 1795
Joined: November 9th, 2009, 11:47 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#15 Post by Nathan V. » July 29th, 2020, 6:13 am

Not sure this is helpful, but sec is up to 4gl rs. My guess is that a lot of wines scrape up against that. I also think that fruitiness "shows" sweeter in riesling and the ripeness level in contemporary Alsatian wines doesn't help. Personally, I always approach Alsatian rieslings as if they will be at least broad if not a bit sec-tendre.

"From 2016, dry Alsace wines must be labeled "sec" or "dry" if they have maximum four grams of residual sugar per liter."

https://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2015/05 ... e-it-clear

If you are willing to give Alsace one more try, seek out Domaine Pfister Riesling, the Tradition is quite good and I think the Engelberg is special. They taste dry to me.

I think you should try to get your hands on a trocken wine from Falkenstein or in a more relaxed style, Weiser-Künstler. Trocken *really* feels trocken with these wines.
ITB-ish.
V = V a n der g r i f t

User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#16 Post by Adam Frisch » July 29th, 2020, 6:28 am

Thank you Nathan, I will try to get my hands on some of those. I have not seen the word Sec on any of the Alsatians bought here, but maybe they don't need to use that classification for exports?
Jan Janas wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 2:04 am
Drink less European Riesling, and more Australian. Happy days!
Might just have to! Have you got other personal Aussie recommends beside the video link you shared?
TimF wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:01 am
What’s the ABV on this wine?
This was 13%.
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 4:28 am
Anyway, I actually think you don’t like fruit, but that’s just my perception based on your posts.
Maybe, but I don't think so, because it became a point the other night when I had a Grüner Veltliner from a very respected US producer (I won't say who, because they make great wines and like them a lot). Both me and my wife thought it was the worst of two varieties - it lacked the zesty, green, malic apple fruit aromas of a Riesling, but had picked up that medicinal, slightly bitter thing from Chardonnay at the end. So I missed that fruit from Riesling. That said, to your point, that sweeter Rieslings do have much fruitier and exciting noses than the drier ones, I'll certainly give them that.
Last edited by Adam Frisch on July 29th, 2020, 6:53 am, edited 5 times in total.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

Russell Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8049
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
Location: Bordeaux

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#17 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 29th, 2020, 6:31 am

I wouldn’t bother with W-K or Falkenstein.

Nathan V.
Posts: 1795
Joined: November 9th, 2009, 11:47 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#18 Post by Nathan V. » July 29th, 2020, 6:33 am

Adam Frisch wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:28 am
Thank you Nathan, I will try to get my hands on some of those. I have not seen the word Sec on any of the Alsatians bought here, but maybe they don't need to use that classification for exports?
IIRC, that scale you point to on the back of the K-B is an "official" one where a producer indicates dryness.
ITB-ish.
V = V a n der g r i f t

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2641
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#19 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 29th, 2020, 6:45 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:31 am
I wouldn’t bother with W-K.
Because you don't think the trocken is dry enough?
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
Victor Hong
Posts: 17789
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#20 Post by Victor Hong » July 29th, 2020, 6:45 am

What is wrong with a wet bone?
WineHunter.

User avatar
Markus S
Posts: 6740
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 7:27 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#21 Post by Markus S » July 29th, 2020, 6:46 am

If you hate riesling so much, stay the hell away from it. Nobody is forcing you to love the grape.
If you want something with screeching acidity, no fruit, and zero sugar, I'm sure there are plenty of people making wines that would suit your palate.
$ _ € ® e . k @

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2641
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#22 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 29th, 2020, 6:47 am

Adam, have you tried the trocken wines of Dr. Uli Stein?
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
Otto Forsberg
Posts: 1243
Joined: December 28th, 2017, 4:26 am
Location: Finland

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#23 Post by Otto Forsberg » July 29th, 2020, 6:48 am

Markus S wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:46 am
If you want something with screeching acidity, no fruit, and zero sugar, I'm sure there are plenty of people making wines that would suit your palate.
Cooler-vintage Coteaux Champenois Blanc would probably be the best place to start. [snort.gif]

Russell Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8049
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
Location: Bordeaux

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#24 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 29th, 2020, 6:53 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:45 am
Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:31 am
I wouldn’t bother with W-K.
Because you don't think the trocken is dry enough?
Yep. They are usually around 2-4g/l as far as I recall. Wonderful balanced wines.

As I’ve said before the wines Adam seeks don’t exist.

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 36786
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#25 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 29th, 2020, 6:59 am

Adam Frisch wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:28 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 4:28 am
Anyway, I actually think you don’t like fruit, but that’s just my perception based on your posts.
Maybe, but I don't think so, because it became a point the other night when I had a Grüner Veltliner from a very respected US producer (I won't say who, because they make great wines and like them a lot). Both me and my wife thought it was the worst of two varieties - it lacked the zesty, green, malic apple fruit aromas of a Riesling, but had picked up that medicinal, slightly bitter thing from Chardonnay at the end. So I missed that fruit from Riesling. That said, to your point, that sweeter Rieslings do have much fruitier and exciting noses than the drier ones, I'll certainly give them that.
FWIW, I have not yet had a US Gruner that I thought was worth buying with my own money, despite trying several.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#26 Post by DanielP » July 29th, 2020, 7:08 am

I don't have a problem with wanting clearer residual sugar numbers on labels. I can definitely taste sweetness in a lot of trocken-labeled wines, although not really to this extreme.

I just think it's ridiculous to act like you've been tricked by a dry labeling/description when you have posted several times about how descriptions of dryness hardly ever seem to match your palate
P@ik

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2641
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#27 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 29th, 2020, 7:28 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:53 am
Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:45 am
Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:31 am
I wouldn’t bother with W-K.
Because you don't think the trocken is dry enough?
Yep. They are usually around 2-4g/l as far as I recall. Wonderful balanced wines.

As I’ve said before the wines Adam seeks don’t exist.
Got it, Stein wouldn't work either. Perceptually dry and half dry kabinetten and spatlesen. Of the highest order I might add!
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7045
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#28 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 29th, 2020, 7:32 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:59 am
Adam Frisch wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:28 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 4:28 am
Anyway, I actually think you don’t like fruit, but that’s just my perception based on your posts.
Maybe, but I don't think so, because it became a point the other night when I had a Grüner Veltliner from a very respected US producer (I won't say who, because they make great wines and like them a lot). Both me and my wife thought it was the worst of two varieties - it lacked the zesty, green, malic apple fruit aromas of a Riesling, but had picked up that medicinal, slightly bitter thing from Chardonnay at the end. So I missed that fruit from Riesling. That said, to your point, that sweeter Rieslings do have much fruitier and exciting noses than the drier ones, I'll certainly give them that.
FWIW, I have not yet had a US Gruner that I thought was worth buying with my own money, despite trying several.
+1
ITB

User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#29 Post by Adam Frisch » July 29th, 2020, 7:32 am

DanielP wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:08 am
I don't have a problem with wanting clearer residual sugar numbers on labels. I can definitely taste sweetness in a lot of trocken-labeled wines, although not really to this extreme.

I just think it's ridiculous to act like you've been tricked by a dry labeling/description when you have posted several times about how descriptions of dryness hardly ever seem to match your palate
But if you print a dryness scale on the label (which a lot of Alsatians do), then you've entered into an understanding with the consumer that the dry part of that scale represents "fermented to dryness" or close to zero sugar. It is very illogical to have the driest part of that scale represent some arbitrary sugar number instead.

My whole rant pertains to it being misleading, not the fact that wine has sugar in it.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 36786
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#30 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 29th, 2020, 7:35 am

You think the general consumer is thinking "fermented to dryness" when they even bother looking at the scale? Take off the winemaker/wine geek hat for a moment.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#31 Post by DanielP » July 29th, 2020, 7:38 am

Adam Frisch wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:32 am
DanielP wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:08 am
I don't have a problem with wanting clearer residual sugar numbers on labels. I can definitely taste sweetness in a lot of trocken-labeled wines, although not really to this extreme.

I just think it's ridiculous to act like you've been tricked by a dry labeling/description when you have posted several times about how descriptions of dryness hardly ever seem to match your palate
But if you print a dryness scale on the label (which a lot of Alsatians do), then you've entered into an understanding with the consumer that the dry part of that scale represents "fermented to dryness" or close to zero sugar. It is very illogical to have the driest part of that scale represent some arbitrary sugar number instead.

My whole rant pertains to it being misleading, not the fact that wine has sugar in it.
It's not a logic thing. The dry part of that scale does represent close to zero sugar, but you just happen to disagree with the definition of "close to zero".

But, I think you already knew that.
P@ik

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2641
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#32 Post by Charlie Carnes » July 29th, 2020, 7:46 am

To me this just comes across as that's as dry as they will make the wine. There is no 0 on that chart on the back of the bottle. The labeling laws for so many areas always leave a little room for imprecision.

Adam, are you wanting a wine with 0rs, or just a label that says as close as possible the rs?
Last edited by Charlie Carnes on July 29th, 2020, 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

Russell Faulkner
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 8049
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
Location: Bordeaux

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#33 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 29th, 2020, 7:46 am

Dry ≠ Zero sugar.

The basic approach is wrong.

User avatar
larry schaffer
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 8248
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: Santa Ynez Valley, CA

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#34 Post by larry schaffer » July 29th, 2020, 7:48 am

I was always under the understanding that with the riesling 'sweetness' scale, 'dry' means that the combination of RS and total acidity bring it down to a specific level, NOT just the aggregate RS level. Is that still the case?

I do find rieslings to be a bit 'tricky' with regards to 'sweetness levels' as well, but have had plenty that were 'trocken' that were dry enough for me.

It also does sound like you are very sensitive to sweetness as well - perhaps moreso than others. May I ask how you drink your coffee?

Cheers.
larry schaffer
tercero wines

Hank Victor
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 629
Joined: July 21st, 2018, 8:36 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#35 Post by Hank Victor » July 29th, 2020, 7:57 am

If the label is IRF this is how its classified.
Riesling Sugar Guidelines: The Scale

The International Riesling Foundation supports four sweetness categories for Riesling, as set forth below, using no numbers to designate the various categories. They will be referenced only by the terms we used for each of the four categories.

Wineries are encouraged to use these categories on all their literature and labeling as well as verbally as a guide for wholesalers, retailers, restaurateurs and consumers.

In the following list, sugar and acid are listed in grams per liter.

Dry. All wines carrying this designation will have a sugar-to-acid ratio not exceeding 1.0. For example, a wine with 6.8 grams of sugar and 7.5 grams of acidity would be in the same category as a wine with 8.1 grams of sugar and 9.0 grams of acid. Similarly, a wine with 12 grams of sugar and 12 grams of acid would be classified as dry.

Notice also that wines that are totally or “near-totally” dry (such as 4 grams per liter) will have a much lower ratio. For instance, a wine with only 3 grams of sugar and a total acidity of 6 grams per liter will have a ratio of .5, and clearly the wine is dry.)

As to pH: we assume that the range of pHs for most Rieslings is between 2.9 and 3.4. So 3.1 is the “base” pH with which most wine makers will be working. So if the pH of wine is 3.1 or 3.2, it remains in this dry category. But if the pH is 3.3 or 3.4, it moves up to Medium Dry. (And if the pH is 3.5 or higher, the wine maker may wish to move the wine to Medium Sweet.)

Medium Dry. Here the ratio is 1.0 to 2.0 acid to sugar. Example: a wine with 7.5 grams of acid could have a maximum sugar level of 15.0 grams. And if the pH is above 3.3, it moves to Medium Sweet, and if the pH is as low as 2.9 or lower, the wine moves to Dry.

Medium Sweet. The ratio here is 2.1 to 4.0 acid to sugar. Example: a wine with 7.5 grams of acid could have a maximum sugar level of 30 grams. And again, the same pH factor applies as a level two wine: if the pH rises to 3.3, you move up to Dessert, and if the pH drops to 2.9 you move to Medium Dry. And if the pH is 2.8 or below (highly unlikely), the wine could be called Dry.

Sweet. Ratio above 4.1, but using the pH adjustment, a sweeter wine with a ratio of, say, 4.4 might actually be moved to Medium Sweet if the pH is significantly lower.

It is vital that all IRF members adhere to the same terminology so when we speak to Riesling consumers about what is a dry wine and what is a medium dry wine, we are all speaking the same language.

This guideline should assist restaurants in that servers can verbally tell patrons what style of wine they will be getting. The more it is used, the more the terminology will be understood.

It is highly recommended that this guideline be used in conjunction with the IRF’s approved graphic interpretation–the Riesling Taste Profile–which can be used on back labels, case cards, shelf-talkers, and so forth.
https://drinkriesling.com/tasteprofile/thescale
- ITB
Take a chance, Columbus did..

H V br1M@

BlaineRyanHunt
Posts: 131
Joined: July 24th, 2017, 9:44 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#36 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » July 29th, 2020, 7:58 am

To me, this is akin to complaining that your Chinon has pyrazines, when once, in a warm vintage you had a Chinon from a different producer that didn't. Pyrazines are a hallmark of the area/wine style, and it's an anomaly when you get a wine from that region that doesn't have that hallmark., much like at least a bit of RS is a hallmark of Riesling.

It's also known that German producers will often call their wines "dry" when there are still a couple grams of residular sugar in the wine. "At Lauer, the focus is on dry-tasting Rieslings as opposed to the residual sugar wines of the latter. For this style, there are really only two addresses in the Saar (though more come online every year, trying to chase the style): Lauer and Hofgut Falkenstein." "When the vintage allows it, Florian will craft Prädikat wines, the Kabinetts, Spät and Auslesen that we all know and once loved. As the focus of Lauer’s production is clearly on the dry and dry-tasting wines..." These are two quotes from Vom Boden, describing Lauer's wines, emphasizing the word "dry" multiple times, though if you look at stats on the wines mentioned, there is residual sugar, ranging in amount from 1.1 grams to 6 grams.

User avatar
rob klafter
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 580
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 3:26 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#37 Post by rob klafter » July 29th, 2020, 7:59 am

just a suggestion, but have you tried the Immich-Batterieberg kabinett? aka kabinett trocken? it's really bone dry and still with fruit. very nice wine and a door to close before you walk away from Germany

https://www.bowlerwine.com/producer/immich-batterieberg
@grossesgewachs

BlaineRyanHunt
Posts: 131
Joined: July 24th, 2017, 9:44 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#38 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » July 29th, 2020, 8:07 am

rob klafter wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:59 am
just a suggestion, but have you tried the Immich-Batterieberg kabinett? aka kabinett trocken? it's really bone dry and still with fruit. very nice wine and a door to close before you walk away from Germany

https://www.bowlerwine.com/producer/immich-batterieberg
Rob,

I love the Immich-Batterieberg wines and agree they do come off dry-tasting, but fear that this may be a producer that Adam doesn't approve of, as they do have wines that carry some RS. Even depending on vintage, that Kabinett Trocken we both love, is sometimes just called Kabinett. Take the following quote fromMosel Fine Wine about Immich, which reinforces my above point that even wines called "dry", still often have residual sugar above the perceptible levels.

"The 2016er Enkircher Batterieberg Réserve comes from over 80 year -old un-graf ted vines in the terraced part of the vineyard and was fermented to legally dry levels (it has 7 g/l of residual sugar). It offers a gorgeous nose of white peach, vineyard peach, ginger and spices. The wine proves gorgeously playful and elegant on the palate and leaves a stunning feel of spices and whipped cream. The aftertaste is creamy, precise and seemingly endless. This is easily one of the f inest dry Riesling f rom the great 2016 vintage! 2027-2042"

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#39 Post by DanielP » July 29th, 2020, 8:07 am

rob klafter wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:59 am
just a suggestion, but have you tried the Immich-Batterieberg kabinett? aka kabinett trocken? it's really bone dry and still with fruit. very nice wine and a door to close before you walk away from Germany

https://www.bowlerwine.com/producer/immich-batterieberg
I think the CAI still often has a smidge of RS
P@ik

User avatar
rob klafter
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 580
Joined: May 30th, 2009, 3:26 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#40 Post by rob klafter » July 29th, 2020, 8:09 am

yes but I-B are so dry, to my palate, but still refreshing and juicy
@grossesgewachs

Sarah Kirschbaum
Posts: 3176
Joined: September 20th, 2010, 11:53 am

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#41 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » July 29th, 2020, 8:23 am

Adam, serious question: why do you continue to try unknown Rieslings at all, when evidence suggests that you probably won't enjoy them, regardless of what it says on the label? I understand that your rant is about what you feel is misleading labeling, but included in your stories are repeated instances of you trying new Rieslings and being upset by them. It seems very likely that you'll be disappointed in pretty much everything you try, not because you're being difficult, but because the wines you want are few and far between, if they exist at all, like Russell said. You've said there are some you do like - just drink those.

This community (me included) can't help making suggestions. I'm not sure they are at all helpful in this situation, since it's pretty clear your palate isn't aligned to many of the responders here. Save yourself the frustration and stick to the examples you enjoy. I dislike most chinon. I gave up buying or tasting any but the one or two I do like years ago. What's the point? I don't need more one or two pleasurable examples. Get your variety elsewhere.
Sort of ITB - my husband imports a small amount of sake and I help out

User avatar
Adam Frisch
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 776
Joined: July 15th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#42 Post by Adam Frisch » July 29th, 2020, 8:35 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:46 am
To me this just comes across as that's as dry as they will make the wine. There is no 0 on that chart on the back of the bottle. The labeling laws for so many areas always leave a little room for imprecision.

Adam, are you wanting a wine with 0rs, or just a label that says as close as possible the rs?
No, I don't need it to be at 0. I know that's almost impossible and prob not even desirable. Grosset Polish Hill felt truly dry for me and that was at 0.9 g/L. Paetra is around 1g/L and and felt the same way. Biggio Hamina's as well. Empirically, I'd say up to 2g/L RS should be it's own classification (bone-dry), and then the German 2-9g/L could be just like it is today.
Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 8:23 am
Adam, serious question: why do you continue to try unknown Rieslings at all, when evidence suggests that you probably won't enjoy them, regardless of what it says on the label? I understand that your rant is about what you feel is misleading labeling, but included in your stories are repeated instances of you trying new Rieslings and being upset by them. It seems very likely that you'll be disappointed in pretty much everything you try, not because you're being difficult, but because the wines you want are few and far between, if they exist at all, like Russell said. You've said there are some you do like - just drink those.

This community (me included) can't help making suggestions. I'm not sure they are at all helpful in this situation, since it's pretty clear your palate isn't aligned to many of the responders here. Save yourself the frustration and stick to the examples you enjoy. I dislike most chinon. I gave up buying or tasting any but the one or two I do like years ago. What's the point? I don't need more one or two pleasurable examples. Get your variety elsewhere.
A thoughtful and reasonable question. There's a lot of knowledge here and I was hoping that the community would be available to guide me to those wines, in the absence of any other way of finding them. The world of Riesling is so vast, I went into my exploration thinking there'd be quite a lot of those wines that I just hadn't discovered yet. Now I'm realizing they probably just don't exist in any numbers, like Russel and many have suggested.

But it's good advice, Sarah. I will conclude my search for now, concentrate on the ones I like and if anyone comes across a screechingly austere one, please let me know! grouphug
Last edited by Adam Frisch on July 29th, 2020, 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sabelli-Frisch Wines

Owner, proprietor and winemaker (with a little help) at Sabelli-Frisch Wines. I make wine from low-impact vineyards, focus on rare, forgotten, under-appreciated or historic grape varietals. Mission grape is my main red focus. IG: sabellifrisch

User avatar
Matthew King
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1437
Joined: January 31st, 2015, 6:58 pm
Location: Santa Monica

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#43 Post by Matthew King » July 29th, 2020, 8:51 am

Charlie Carnes wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:46 am
To me this just comes across as that's as dry as they will make the wine. There is no 0 on that chart on the back of the bottle. The labeling laws for so many areas always leave a little room for imprecision.
Adam, are you wanting a wine with 0rs, or just a label that says as close as possible the rs?
“Spinal Tap”

We need a -1 for Adam!
"Please don't dominate the rap Jack if you've got nothing new to say." -- Robert Hunter

Marcus Goodfellow
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 1977
Joined: January 5th, 2011, 9:28 pm
Location: McMinnville, Oregon

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#44 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » July 29th, 2020, 8:58 am

Todd’s wine is 0g rs. That’s the first 0 in his 0-0 post.

It’s kind of challenging to talk about perception of Riesling as dry without working rs and pH(or TA) as a ratio.

.2-.9 grams is a pretty functional but even 6-9g/liter can show sweetness in new world fruit with moderate acidity.

I’m not sure that there’s such a dire shortage of good bone dry Riesling as your post suggests. As you noted, Grosset(and Mt. Horrocks) do the job.

Also:
Tantalus and Syncromesh(Okanogan)-screechingly austere in a great way.
Trimbach
Leeuwin Estate (and many, many other Aussie Rieslings)


Plus the rather obvious German Trocken and GG wines.

And most of Austria, although alcohols can get higher than I like in the Smaragd class.
Goodfellow Family Cellars
Winemaker & Owner

Marcus Goodfellow
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 1977
Joined: January 5th, 2011, 9:28 pm
Location: McMinnville, Oregon

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#45 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » July 29th, 2020, 9:18 am

larry schaffer wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:48 am
I was always under the understanding that with the riesling 'sweetness' scale, 'dry' means that the combination of RS and total acidity bring it down to a specific level, NOT just the aggregate RS level. Is that still the case?

I do find rieslings to be a bit 'tricky' with regards to 'sweetness levels' as well, but have had plenty that were 'trocken' that were dry enough for me.

It also does sound like you are very sensitive to sweetness as well - perhaps moreso than others. May I ask how you drink your coffee?

Cheers.
This is a really good post Larry.

Over the years of pouring the field blend and Riesling from Whistling Ridge for visitors, it became apparent that while most people perceive “dry” based upon the balance of acids and sugar, a small set of tasters seem to perceive sugar independently. A wine with 5 grams rs but a pH of 3.0 will be perceived as dry by most tasters. But for some the presence of rs is still overwhelming. 5g/liter would be dry in Germany, and with a TA of 8.0g/liter this wine would be definitely dry by the IRF scale as well.
Goodfellow Family Cellars
Winemaker & Owner

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 36786
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#46 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 29th, 2020, 9:25 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 8:58 am
Todd’s wine is 0g rs. That’s the first 0 in his 0-0 post.

It’s kind of challenging to talk about perception of Riesling as dry without working rs and pH(or TA) as a ratio.

.2-.9 grams is a pretty functional but even 6-9g/liter can show sweetness in new world fruit with moderate acidity.

I’m not sure that there’s such a dire shortage of good bone dry Riesling as your post suggests. As you noted, Grosset(and Mt. Horrocks) do the job.

Also:
Tantalus and Syncromesh(Okanogan)-screechingly austere in a great way.
Trimbach
Leeuwin Estate (and many, many other Aussie Rieslings)


Plus the rather obvious German Trocken and GG wines.

And most of Austria, although alcohols can get higher than I like in the Smaragd class.
It's already clear from Adam's posts that the GG wines would not meet with his approval in the vast majority of cases. Same for most Trockens.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
CJ Beazley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 28121
Joined: December 3rd, 2011, 6:33 am
Location: Ovilla\Midlothian Texas

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#47 Post by CJ Beazley » July 29th, 2020, 10:06 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 9:18 am
larry schaffer wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:48 am
I was always under the understanding that with the riesling 'sweetness' scale, 'dry' means that the combination of RS and total acidity bring it down to a specific level, NOT just the aggregate RS level. Is that still the case?

I do find rieslings to be a bit 'tricky' with regards to 'sweetness levels' as well, but have had plenty that were 'trocken' that were dry enough for me.

It also does sound like you are very sensitive to sweetness as well - perhaps moreso than others. May I ask how you drink your coffee?

Cheers.
This is a really good post Larry.

Over the years of pouring the field blend and Riesling from Whistling Ridge for visitors, it became apparent that while most people perceive “dry” based upon the balance of acids and sugar, a small set of tasters seem to perceive sugar independently. A wine with 5 grams rs but a pH of 3.0 will be perceived as dry by most tasters. But for some the presence of rs is still overwhelming. 5g/liter would be dry in Germany, and with a TA of 8.0g/liter this wine would be definitely dry by the IRF scale as well.
For some perspective, does anyone know if there’s any actual RS in say...Kendal Jackson reserve Chardonnay?
It's C(raig)

DanielP
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 693
Joined: October 5th, 2015, 7:21 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#48 Post by DanielP » July 29th, 2020, 10:16 am

CJ Beazley wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 10:06 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 9:18 am
larry schaffer wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 7:48 am
I was always under the understanding that with the riesling 'sweetness' scale, 'dry' means that the combination of RS and total acidity bring it down to a specific level, NOT just the aggregate RS level. Is that still the case?

I do find rieslings to be a bit 'tricky' with regards to 'sweetness levels' as well, but have had plenty that were 'trocken' that were dry enough for me.

It also does sound like you are very sensitive to sweetness as well - perhaps moreso than others. May I ask how you drink your coffee?

Cheers.
This is a really good post Larry.

Over the years of pouring the field blend and Riesling from Whistling Ridge for visitors, it became apparent that while most people perceive “dry” based upon the balance of acids and sugar, a small set of tasters seem to perceive sugar independently. A wine with 5 grams rs but a pH of 3.0 will be perceived as dry by most tasters. But for some the presence of rs is still overwhelming. 5g/liter would be dry in Germany, and with a TA of 8.0g/liter this wine would be definitely dry by the IRF scale as well.
For some perspective, does anyone know if there’s any actual RS in say...Kendal Jackson reserve Chardonnay?
Looks like 9 g/L, if the LCBO site is to be trusted

https://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/kenda ... yGtJrcpB-E
P@ik

User avatar
Marshall Manning
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 471
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#49 Post by Marshall Manning » July 29th, 2020, 10:24 am

Markus S wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:46 am
If you want something with screeching acidity, no fruit, and zero sugar, I'm sure there are plenty of people making wines that would suit your palate.
Muscadet from a cool vintage might work?
Marshall

User avatar
Marshall Manning
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 471
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Bone-dry meaning is completely lost. Major rant. Riesling. Again.

#50 Post by Marshall Manning » July 29th, 2020, 10:32 am

Adam Frisch wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 10:44 pm
OK, riddle me this - how do you get RS info? You can't reliably. If I could, problem would be solved. But as of now, they're stealing my money by labeling a wine with a meter that pegs to complete dryness, using words like bone-dry in descriptors, when it's obviously not.
I think they are trying to point out perception (to most tasters), not actual residual sugar numbers. As others have said, perception of dryness also involves acid and probably extract and terroir, too. I've met and seen a number of wine geeks online over the years, and I've never known someone with this issue, so I'd take it less as if they are "stealing my money" as opposed to you perceiving even small amounts of RS as too sweet. Unless you think every Riesling producer is just out to get you [cry.gif] .
Marshall

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”