PYCM Never Fails Me

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jason stein
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PYCM Never Fails Me

#1 Post by jason stein » July 28th, 2020, 3:11 pm

Tonight, I opened a 2012 Guiberteau Saumur Clos de Guichaux... totally oxidized, shot.

Next attempt: 2014 Sauzet Puligny-Montrachet... also advanced.

I moved on to a 2017 PYCM Pernand-Vergelesses Les Belles Filles... A delicious drink. Smokey, flinty, fresh. Complete and satisfying, and premox free! Though not his most exalted wine, I find that particularly in 17 PYCM's humbler bottlings outperform.

Interesting to see the color progression from 1st to last...
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#2 Post by Sean S y d n e y » July 28th, 2020, 3:13 pm

1/3 - If this was baseball, you'd be in the MVP race!

Seriously, that sucks. I know I enjoyed my PYCM Pernand Sous Fretilles 1er immensely so I hope it made up for it. Seeing wines as recently as 2014 show signs of premox is disheartening.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#3 Post by jason stein » July 28th, 2020, 3:16 pm

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:13 pm
1/3 - If this was baseball, you'd be in the MVP race!

Seriously, that sucks. I know I enjoyed my PYCM Pernand Sous Fretilles 1er immensely so I hope it made up for it. Seeing wines as recently as 2014 show signs of premox is disheartening.
Have some Sous Frétilles too! Working through Belles Filles and Combottes first...
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#4 Post by Vinod S. » July 28th, 2020, 3:19 pm

Ugh now I’m worried about the Sauzet les Referts case I’ve let sleep so far. PYCM has never given me a premox issue, though I tend to drink them pretty young since they’re so good on release.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#5 Post by jason stein » July 28th, 2020, 3:23 pm

Vinod S. wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:19 pm
Ugh now I’m worried about the Sauzet les Referts case I’ve let sleep so far. PYCM has never given me a premox issue, though I tend to drink them pretty young since they’re so good on release.
White Burgundy is just luck of the draw, it feels. The sickest part of all of this is that now, drinking my glass of PYCM Pernand, it still feels like it was worth the 2 shot bottles before I got here!
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#6 Post by Kirk.Grant » July 28th, 2020, 3:52 pm

I love the wines...but I'm drinking all the Guiberteau wines within a year now. I have one 2014 PYCM St Aubin I'm hoping will show well later in life.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#7 Post by jason stein » July 28th, 2020, 3:53 pm

Kirk.Grant wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:52 pm
I love the wines...but I'm drinking all the Guiberteau wines within a year now. I have one 2014 PYCM St Aubin I'm hoping will show well later in life.
You've had issues with Guiberteau?
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#8 Post by Vince T » July 28th, 2020, 4:02 pm

Opened a ‘18 PYCM Aligoté tonight. Tastes like PYCM and happiness.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#9 Post by Joshua Kates » July 28th, 2020, 4:52 pm

Yes, I've got a bunch of '14's, scary to think premox would alread by a concern.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#10 Post by Kirk.Grant » July 28th, 2020, 5:32 pm

jason stein wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:53 pm
Kirk.Grant wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:52 pm
I love the wines...but I'm drinking all the Guiberteau wines within a year now. I have one 2014 PYCM St Aubin I'm hoping will show well later in life.
You've had issues with Guiberteau?
Yes, I had multiple bottles of the 2010 Clos de Carmes pre-moxed last year...and then I had a bottle that was pristine and seemed like it could benefit from another decade in the cellar. I have one bottle of the 2015 Clos de Carmes left that I plan to drink by the end of this summer.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#11 Post by dvansteenderen » July 29th, 2020, 2:46 pm

Kirk.Grant wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 5:32 pm
jason stein wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:53 pm
Kirk.Grant wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:52 pm
I love the wines...but I'm drinking all the Guiberteau wines within a year now. I have one 2014 PYCM St Aubin I'm hoping will show well later in life.
You've had issues with Guiberteau?
Yes, I had multiple bottles of the 2010 Clos de Carmes pre-moxed last year...and then I had a bottle that was pristine and seemed like it could benefit from another decade in the cellar. I have one bottle of the 2015 Clos de Carmes left that I plan to drink by the end of this summer.
The 2015 Clos des Carmes should be fine! Just had one last Monday afternoon which was amazing and young still...

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#12 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 29th, 2020, 5:05 pm

What is PYCM’s track record like on premox

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#13 Post by c fu » July 29th, 2020, 5:29 pm

jason stein wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:53 pm
Kirk.Grant wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:52 pm
I love the wines...but I'm drinking all the Guiberteau wines within a year now. I have one 2014 PYCM St Aubin I'm hoping will show well later in life.
You've had issues with Guiberteau?
big time issues with guiberteau. got rid of all my older btls.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#14 Post by c fu » July 29th, 2020, 5:29 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 5:05 pm
What is PYCM’s track record like on premox
very good
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#15 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 29th, 2020, 6:05 pm

Premox is spreading to the Loire?

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#16 Post by c fu » July 29th, 2020, 6:35 pm

Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:05 pm
Premox is spreading to the Loire?
I'd say it's been there, just people don't age them long enough typically to see it. I've had advanced btls of Rougeard Breze too
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#17 Post by John Ammons » July 29th, 2020, 8:18 pm

I recently brought a few 2014s home from the locker to check in on, St Aubins 1ers and lower level Chassagne, and they've mostly showed the telltale PYCM reductive sulfur like character that often quickly blows off but in these cases had issues doing so. I'd say to stay away form 2014 PYCM right now as they could potentially fail you!

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#18 Post by Joe D » July 29th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 3:13 pm
1/3 - If this was baseball, you'd be in the MVP race!

Seriously, that sucks. I know I enjoyed my PYCM Pernand Sous Fretilles 1er immensely so I hope it made up for it. Seeing wines as recently as 2014 show signs of premox is disheartening.
5-7 years is the hot spot for premox
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#19 Post by IlkkaL » July 29th, 2020, 10:24 pm

Happy to hear that the PYCM rocked (no surprise there) but a bit devastated about the Guiberteau from OP and others here, I had no idea one should be wary of potential premox with their wines too...:(
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#20 Post by Vince T » July 30th, 2020, 6:19 am

I’ve had oxidized bottles of 2010 and 2008 Chidaine. At the time, I thought of them as just oxidized and not part of premox ... but this thread is having me reconsider.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#21 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 30th, 2020, 6:54 am

Vince T wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 6:19 am
I’ve had oxidized bottles of 2010 and 2008 Chidaine. At the time, I thought of them as just oxidized and not part of premox ... but this thread is having me reconsider.
Now that you mention it, I had a bottle or two of Chidaine that was oxidized.

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#22 Post by jason stein » July 30th, 2020, 7:13 am

IlkkaL wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 10:24 pm
Happy to hear that the PYCM rocked (no surprise there) but a bit devastated about the Guiberteau from OP and others here, I had no idea one should be wary of potential premox with their wines too...:(
The Guiberteau was the worst oxidation I've experienced in a wine... The Sauzet almost tasted sound in comparison!
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#23 Post by Michae1 P0wers » July 30th, 2020, 7:25 am

Vince T wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 6:19 am
I’ve had oxidized bottles of 2010 and 2008 Chidaine. At the time, I thought of them as just oxidized and not part of premox ... but this thread is having me reconsider.
Chidaine had massive and widely reported premox problems with the '14 vintage. I think I had one good bottle out of many. I also opened a 2010 Huet sec the other day which was premoxed. That was a shame as it was my last bottle and all previous bottles had been excellent.

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#24 Post by williamwhelan » July 30th, 2020, 7:33 am

While PYCM is by far my favorite producer of white burgundy, I've always been 1.) too eager to let them wait for more than a few years 2.) playing mainly with the St. Aubins, PV, and maybe a Meursault or two. I've also been a bit worried, likely foolishly, that with age, the hallmark reduction/flint and tension will go missing and perhaps that's what I love most about the wines. Morgan Harris had posted something a few years ago about it and it made sense to me, but something tells me I'm likely over thinking it.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#25 Post by IlkkaL » July 30th, 2020, 7:43 am

jason stein wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 7:13 am
IlkkaL wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 10:24 pm
Happy to hear that the PYCM rocked (no surprise there) but a bit devastated about the Guiberteau from OP and others here, I had no idea one should be wary of potential premox with their wines too...:(
The Guiberteau was the worst oxidation I've experienced in a wine... The Sauzet almost tasted sound in comparison!
Ouch, I suppose I should not hold on to my one bottle of the 2016 for too long even if the CT notes don't exactly scream "drink up!".
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#26 Post by Mike C. » July 30th, 2020, 8:24 am

williamwhelan wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 7:33 am
While PYCM is by far my favorite producer of white burgundy, I've always been 1.) too eager to let them wait for more than a few years 2.) playing mainly with the St. Aubins, PV, and maybe a Meursault or two. I've also been a bit worried, likely foolishly, that with age, the hallmark reduction/flint and tension will go missing and perhaps that's what I love most about the wines. Morgan Harris had posted something a few years ago about it and it made sense to me, but something tells me I'm likely over thinking it.
I had a 2005 St Aubin 1er at the end of last year and wished that I had more/waited longer. I’ve found the PYCM wines to be too simplistic when young, with the reduction and tension dominating without revealing much else (i.e., there is tension but you’re really not sure what elements are actually in tension).
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#27 Post by Marshall Manning » July 30th, 2020, 9:13 am

Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
July 29th, 2020, 6:05 pm
Premox is spreading to the Loire?
It's been all over. I had some '02 Chidaines that premoxed very quickly.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#28 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 30th, 2020, 9:18 am

Since this seems to be the PYCM thread, can I ask a novice question? His more "classic" appellations (Meursault, Puligny, etc.) seem to be rapidly becoming unaffordable, especially at the 1er cru level and above. However, unlike other high-prestige producers he seems very committed to producing a lot in less well known appellations like St Aubin and Pernand-Vergelesses. This makes the overall price of trying his wines lower than other cult producers. But what is the quality differential as you move up his hierarchy? I tend to feel like in Burgundy it is producer-vintage-site, in that order, so are you pretty much getting the PYCM experience in bottles from his less expensive sites, or is it worth trying to stretch for some of the "classic" high end appelations?

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#29 Post by Yao C » July 30th, 2020, 9:23 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 9:18 am
are you pretty much getting the PYCM experience in bottles from his less expensive sites, or is it worth trying to stretch for some of the "classic" high end appelations?
Others have had a lot more pycm than I have, but IMO there is a clear step up when you try his wines from more celebrated sites (eg Meursault 1er crus and CC). Have not tried the really high-end (eg Chevalier) so can't comment there
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#30 Post by jason stein » July 30th, 2020, 9:28 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 9:18 am
Since this seems to be the PYCM thread, can I ask a novice question? His more "classic" appellations (Meursault, Puligny, etc.) seem to be rapidly becoming unaffordable, especially at the 1er cru level and above. However, unlike other high-prestige producers he seems very committed to producing a lot in less well known appellations like St Aubin and Pernand-Vergelesses. This makes the overall price of trying his wines lower than other cult producers. But what is the quality differential as you move up his hierarchy? I tend to feel like in Burgundy it is producer-vintage-site, in that order, so are you pretty much getting the PYCM experience in bottles from his less expensive sites, or is it worth trying to stretch for some of the "classic" high end appelations?
I'd say both. PYCM's St Aubins and Pernands are fantastic wines that give you a clear picture of his style, and are frankly fantastic values. I have tons of his 17 Pernands for this reason. The wines from better sites, however, are a different level.

I'd recommend (as I try to do with any new producer) try a Bourgogne, A Pernand/St Aubin, a Meursault/Chassagne/Puligny 1er and maybe a CC or other GC if you're willing to spend that much.

Otherwise I think any of his wines will give you an idea of what he is about, as he has a pretty distinct style. The Pernand Belles Filles I had to start this thread was beautiful, and his St Aubin Le Banc is a reliably good drink. Great Bourgogne too.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#31 Post by Steven Dilley » July 30th, 2020, 10:16 am

Mike C. wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 8:24 am
I’ve found the PYCM wines to be too simplistic when young, with the reduction and tension dominating without revealing much else (i.e., there is tension but you’re really not sure what elements are actually in tension).
I find the same thing to be true with young Guiberteau whites. I had an incredible bottle of '14 Moulins last night. On release, it was a pretty mute wine. Now I'm wondering if perhaps it's the sleeper in the lineup.

I'm a big PYCM fan and mainly buy St Aubin with a few bottles of Chassagne / GC thrown in. I purchased somewhere between half a case and a case of various Pernand Vergelesses PYCM in '17 and was disappointed by the couple of bottles I opened shortly after release. The notes here make me hopeful that I just caught 'em at a weird time.

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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#32 Post by Pat Martin » July 31st, 2020, 10:29 am

I’ve had a few of the higher end bottlings through the years, but in reality I play pretty much exclusively in the PYCM minor leagues (St. Aubin, Pernand, Rully, even the Hautes-Côtes de Beaune), and I’ve loved every minute of it. There is a certain sameness to the wines, but in this case that’s a very, very good thing! If I can get a PYCM blanc for $33 and love it 90% as much as his Meursault, that is genius in my book.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#33 Post by Pat Martin » July 31st, 2020, 10:47 am

Despite the meh vintage reputation, CT notes on the 2018 PYCM stable of blancs are very encouraging.
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#34 Post by c fu » July 31st, 2020, 10:54 am

williamwhelan wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 7:33 am
While PYCM is by far my favorite producer of white burgundy, I've always been 1.) too eager to let them wait for more than a few years 2.) playing mainly with the St. Aubins, PV, and maybe a Meursault or two. I've also been a bit worried, likely foolishly, that with age, the hallmark reduction/flint and tension will go missing and perhaps that's what I love most about the wines. Morgan Harris had posted something a few years ago about it and it made sense to me, but something tells me I'm likely over thinking it.
ironically i liked his 2010 and earlier wines which were far less reduced but had that awesome energy still. Sitting on some 02/04 perrieres and 04 chevy that i'll crack in a couple years (or next month who knows!)
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Re: PYCM Never Fails Me

#35 Post by williamwhelan » July 31st, 2020, 1:16 pm

c fu wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 10:54 am
williamwhelan wrote:
July 30th, 2020, 7:33 am
While PYCM is by far my favorite producer of white burgundy, I've always been 1.) too eager to let them wait for more than a few years 2.) playing mainly with the St. Aubins, PV, and maybe a Meursault or two. I've also been a bit worried, likely foolishly, that with age, the hallmark reduction/flint and tension will go missing and perhaps that's what I love most about the wines. Morgan Harris had posted something a few years ago about it and it made sense to me, but something tells me I'm likely over thinking it.
ironically i liked his 2010 and earlier wines which were far less reduced but had that awesome energy still. Sitting on some 02/04 perrieres and 04 chevy that i'll crack in a couple years (or next month who knows!)
Ain't that the truth. My wife and I are spending September in the Colorado Rockies and every. single. bottle. that I've been packing is one I swore I'd let sit for a few more years. Oh well.
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