Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

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BlaineRyanHunt
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Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#1 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » July 26th, 2020, 12:46 pm

I was just thinking about Pax today, a favorite California producer of mine. I’m in my thirties, so wasn’t around for the early Pax days, when the wines were big and extracted, often pushing 16 percent alcohol, though I’ve read about them. I think about the wines today, in the 12 percent range, using carbonic, and eschewing new oak, and wondered are there any other producers who have varied so drastically in their winemaking style so relatively quickly?

I’m thinking most examples would be in the Pax vein: moving from high throttle, to more lean and restrained, but would love to hear examples of the opposite.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#2 Post by Marcus Dean » July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm

happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#3 Post by AndyK » July 26th, 2020, 12:49 pm

Copain comes to mind...
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#4 Post by Nick Ellis » July 26th, 2020, 12:51 pm

BlaineRyanHunt wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:46 pm
...but would love to hear examples of the opposite.
Caymus would be the textbook example of the opposite.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#5 Post by RyanC » July 26th, 2020, 1:18 pm

Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm
happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
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Yeah. Faiveley comes to mind. Gouges has also softened. I’ve heard Perrot-Minot has dialed back the oak.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#6 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 26th, 2020, 1:21 pm

Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm
happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
Fourrier
Arnoux-Lachaux
Were old Fourrier much less friendly?

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#7 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm

St. Emilion

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#8 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 26th, 2020, 1:41 pm

Copain and Faiveley were two that immediately came to mind for me but I see others have already mentioned them.

As Robert implies there are so many examples on the right bank of Bordeaux that one is tempted to list the whole region. Figeac, Bel Air, the list goes on...

This is not an uncommon phenomenon once you think about it. Technology and styles change region wide every few decades

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#9 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » July 26th, 2020, 1:46 pm

I was thinking Right Bank Bordeaux, in general, as well as a ton of Barolo modernists in the 80s/90s.

I was just thinking that Nicolas Joly would probably fit in this category, too. Started out making fairly traditional wine and used chemicals in the vineyard, then moved on to extreme biodynamics and a more wild winemaking style.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#10 Post by BlaineRyanHunt » July 26th, 2020, 1:48 pm

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:21 pm
Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm
happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
Fourrier
Arnoux-Lachaux
Were old Fourrier much less friendly?
I think people consider Jean-Marie's wines to be "sappier" and more fruit-forward than his father's.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#11 Post by RyanC » July 26th, 2020, 1:54 pm

Hardly a "total 180," but in the vein of "younger generation takes over," the ascending quality, prices, and hype of Bartolo Mascarello is much due to the phenomenal work that Maria Teresa has done. She has kept things traditional but, in my admittedly small sample, the M-T era wines are significantly more elegant and refined than ever before.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#12 Post by Marcus Dean » July 26th, 2020, 2:22 pm

BlaineRyanHunt wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:48 pm
Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:21 pm
Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm
happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
Fourrier
Arnoux-Lachaux
Were old Fourrier much less friendly?
I think people consider Jean-Marie's wines to be "sappier" and more fruit-forward than his father's.
His Father dumped a fair bit of potassium on the vines and cropped at pretty high levels and the wine making was average at best.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#13 Post by larry schaffer » July 26th, 2020, 2:41 pm

Surprised no one has mentioned Adam Tolmach from Ojai Vineyards - did a 180 in 2008 or 2008 or so - and was a 'darling' of RMP and others. Risked quite a bit, but his wines, to me, have gotten better and better.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#14 Post by Tom DeBiase » July 26th, 2020, 3:42 pm

I believe Broc Cellars made bigger boned wines early on. Not huge wines mind you but different from what is made today. Broc Cellars wines today are fresh, juicy, pure and low alcohol.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#15 Post by PeterH » July 26th, 2020, 5:01 pm

When I saw the title, I immediately thought Pax, but many large producers have taken the opposite tack, i.e. Beaulieu and Chateau St. Michelle. They had Andre Tchelistcheff in common setting a classic Bordeaux profile, which was lost gradually as successive wine makers enriched the mix. Of course, the whole world of wine making was changing, and holdouts like Mondavi lost favor with point granters, and most eventually gave in.
There were actually a couple of waves in California of Chardonnay producers going from a rich buttery style to more restraint, backsliding, then getting religion again.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#16 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm

It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.

I was not being flippant above when I said in a pithy fashion, St Emilion. That entire region is 180 degrees from the St Em I fell in love with in the early 90s. Very few classic wines remain. Magdelaine closed. Everyone hiring Rolland. Even the stalwart, Figeac, flipped. Gracefully, Pomerol is still producing many classic wines. You pay more but you get what you want, a reliable classic wine, you just pay more. Well, they generally are better anyway.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#17 Post by alan weinberg » July 26th, 2020, 5:31 pm

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:21 pm
Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 12:48 pm
happens a bit in Burgundy when a new Generation takes over, off the top of my head..
Fourrier
Arnoux-Lachaux
Were old Fourrier much less friendly?
95 was searingly tannic. I think it was J-M’s first vintage. The Griotte was about $35 and there was a stack of it at Wine Club. After I tasted it, I didn’t buy more.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#18 Post by Wes Barton » July 26th, 2020, 5:44 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm
It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.
Really? Ryan Zepaltas is an excellent winemaker. Have you tried Copain wines he made? This marked a great opportunity for him, so curious how he's done.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#19 Post by William Kelley » July 26th, 2020, 5:55 pm

Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 2:22 pm
BlaineRyanHunt wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:48 pm
Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:21 pm

Were old Fourrier much less friendly?
I think people consider Jean-Marie's wines to be "sappier" and more fruit-forward than his father's.
His Father dumped a fair bit of potassium on the vines and cropped at pretty high levels and the wine making was average at best.
1985s drinking pretty deliciously today for all that...
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#20 Post by Brian Glas » July 26th, 2020, 5:59 pm

I wasn't drinking much Washington Cabernet 15 to 20 years ago because I found way too many of them over oaked. About 5 years ago I started buying them again and have enjoyed many of them. Either my palate changed or many producers started backing off on the oak treatment. Probably a bit of both.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#21 Post by PeterH » July 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm

Brian Glas wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:59 pm
I wasn't drinking much Washington Cabernet 15 to 20 years ago because I found way too many of them over oaked. About 5 years ago I started buying them again and have enjoyed many of them. Either my palate changed or many producers started backing off on the oak treatment. Probably a bit of both.
I've talked to a few winemakers who say they have lightened up on the oak and ripeness, Mark Ryan, for instance. From what I can tell, they have turned about 45 degrees, not 180.
Some of the newer winemakers started out going for a more transparent style. There weren't many of those 15 to 20 years ago.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#22 Post by Marcus Dean » July 26th, 2020, 10:10 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:55 pm
Marcus Dean wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 2:22 pm
BlaineRyanHunt wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:48 pm


I think people consider Jean-Marie's wines to be "sappier" and more fruit-forward than his father's.
His Father dumped a fair bit of potassium on the vines and cropped at pretty high levels and the wine making was average at best.
1985s drinking pretty deliciously today for all that...
Please report to New Zealand for re-education

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#23 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 27th, 2020, 3:34 am

Wes Barton wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:44 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm
It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.
Really? Ryan Zepaltas is an excellent winemaker. Have you tried Copain wines he made? This marked a great opportunity for him, so curious how he's done.

I have not tried any since he took over. My post was not a commentary on him, but rather, the sale of the winery, which was a different set of circumstances from what caused me to buy in originally. I’m sure the wines are fine, I just moved on.

PS. Had a rather nice, un-oaked 2016 Copain Chard last night to pair with some Mahi.

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#24 Post by Scott Brunson » July 27th, 2020, 4:01 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 3:34 am
Wes Barton wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:44 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm
It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.
Really? Ryan Zepaltas is an excellent winemaker. Have you tried Copain wines he made? This marked a great opportunity for him, so curious how he's done.

I have not tried any since he took over. My post was not a commentary on him, but rather, the sale of the winery, which was a different set of circumstances from what caused me to buy in originally. I’m sure the wines are fine, I just moved on.
Ditto—I will enjoy my remaining bottles.
Last weekend we drank an 07 (the year before the change) James Berry. While I prefer the wines after the style change, the JB was absolutely delicious.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#25 Post by Victor Hong » July 27th, 2020, 4:40 am

Trump Winery.
First, there was no oak.
Now, there is lots of oak, which has to be masked.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#26 Post by Howard Cooper » July 27th, 2020, 4:49 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm
St. Emilion
Like Caymus, this is an example of moving in the opposite direction.

Have there been examples in Bordeaux of estates having gone to the dark side and then coming back and making traditional wines again - seems like a one-way street there.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#27 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 27th, 2020, 6:24 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 4:49 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm
St. Emilion
Like Caymus, this is an example of moving in the opposite direction.

Have there been examples in Bordeaux of estates having gone to the dark side and then coming back and making traditional wines again - seems like a one-way street there.
There are rumors of some estates that went OTT, like Cos d’Estournel and Trolong Monday scaling back in 2016 and after, but at $200+ who the heck wants to risk it. I wrote both estates off quite some time ago. I have a line 2005 Cos that was a gift, and I gifted my 2008 Troplong to my pops. He loves these big blowsy wines.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#28 Post by Howard Cooper » July 27th, 2020, 6:50 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 6:24 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 4:49 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm
St. Emilion
Like Caymus, this is an example of moving in the opposite direction.

Have there been examples in Bordeaux of estates having gone to the dark side and then coming back and making traditional wines again - seems like a one-way street there.
There are rumors of some estates that went OTT, like Cos d’Estournel and Trolong Monday scaling back in 2016 and after, but at $200+ who the heck wants to risk it. I wrote both estates off quite some time ago. I have a line 2005 Cos that was a gift, and I gifted my 2008 Troplong to my pops. He loves these big blowsy wines.
Could you tell the difference blind between Troplong Mondot and Ovid?
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#29 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 27th, 2020, 6:56 am

Ovid has lower ABV! ;)

And much more Cab Franc in the cepage.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#30 Post by Nick Christie » July 27th, 2020, 8:20 am

Poor Troplong... Poor, poor Troplong

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#31 Post by J.Vizuete » July 27th, 2020, 8:40 am

Nick Christie wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:20 am
Poor Troplong... Poor, poor Troplong
Nah, I enjoyed a vertical at the estate last summer (04, 11, 12, 13, 14). None were big, blousy, or overly alcoholic. 9/10 certainly have that reputation, and I have a couple 15s in the cellar where the jury is out, but the wines have character and a sense of place (at least with some bottle age). Plus it's a sweet visit.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#32 Post by Nick Christie » July 27th, 2020, 8:51 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:40 am
Nick Christie wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:20 am
Poor Troplong... Poor, poor Troplong
Nah, I enjoyed a vertical at the estate last summer (04, 11, 12, 13, 14). None were big, blousy, or overly alcoholic. 9/10 certainly have that reputation, and I have a couple 15s in the cellar where the jury is out, but the wines have character and a sense of place (at least with some bottle age). Plus it's a sweet visit.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#33 Post by Chris Seiber » July 27th, 2020, 9:04 am

Wes Barton wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:44 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm
It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.
Really? Ryan Zepaltas is an excellent winemaker. Have you tried Copain wines he made? This marked a great opportunity for him, so curious how he's done.
I'm quite interested to try some of the wines he makes for them.

I think Ryan was also a guy, like Wells, who went from a riper style in the first years of his Zepaltas label to a leaner style towards the end. I don't know if "total 180" would be the way to describe it, but he's also been on the journey that many California winemakers have been on from the era of higher ripeness in the early 2000s up to more balanced styles today.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#34 Post by J.Vizuete » July 27th, 2020, 9:04 am

Nick Christie wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:51 am
J.Vizuete wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:40 am
Nick Christie wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:20 am
Poor Troplong... Poor, poor Troplong
Nah, I enjoyed a vertical at the estate last summer (04, 11, 12, 13, 14). None were big, blousy, or overly alcoholic. 9/10 certainly have that reputation, and I have a couple 15s in the cellar where the jury is out, but the wines have character and a sense of place (at least with some bottle age). Plus it's a sweet visit.
Image
you mean, like, one in a million?
more like one in a billion :)
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#35 Post by Chris Seiber » July 27th, 2020, 9:06 am

Wasn't Bergstrom a winery which went from a full-blown style into a more moderate style along the way?

I just had a few from the early phase -- the ones I had were the kinds of wines that were flashy young, and fell apart with even medium age. I've read on here that they've changed their style considerably, but I haven't felt compelled to revisit them after my bad experiences.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#36 Post by larry schaffer » July 27th, 2020, 9:12 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 9:04 am
Wes Barton wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:44 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 5:08 pm
It’s funny that so many of us immediately thought of Pax and Copain. I was on the Copain list post-180, but then immediately dropped when the owner cashed out and sold.
Really? Ryan Zepaltas is an excellent winemaker. Have you tried Copain wines he made? This marked a great opportunity for him, so curious how he's done.
I'm quite interested to try some of the wines he makes for them.

I think Ryan was also a guy, like Wells, who went from a riper style in the first years of his Zepaltas label to a leaner style towards the end. I don't know if "total 180" would be the way to describe it, but he's also been on the journey that many California winemakers have been on from the era of higher ripeness in the early 2000s up to more balanced styles today.
Ryan is such a down-to-earth guy who is one of the easiest guys to talk to. Reach out to him directly if you are interested in the styles of the wines that he is currently making.

Chris made a great point - Ryan was making wines along Adam Lee in the 2000s and everyone at that time was influenced by the richer, more 'flashy' wines of the times. Were there any that were following a different path back then? Sure - folks like Jim Clendenon, Bob Lindquist, Rod Berglund and a number of others, but the influence of the riper style definitely 'affected' many.

Cheers.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#37 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 27th, 2020, 9:54 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:40 am
Nick Christie wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 8:20 am
Poor Troplong... Poor, poor Troplong
Nah, I enjoyed a vertical at the estate last summer (04, 11, 12, 13, 14). None were big, blousy, or overly alcoholic. 9/10 certainly have that reputation, and I have a couple 15s in the cellar where the jury is out, but the wines have character and a sense of place (at least with some bottle age). Plus it's a sweet visit.

Too bad you didn’t try the 2005. It’s a big boy.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#38 Post by mark rudner » July 27th, 2020, 10:09 am

turley is the best example for me
back in the day up to 17.5

now an entirely different animal

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#39 Post by Ian Dorin » July 27th, 2020, 10:15 am

Isn't Kosta Browne in the middle of doing a 180 too?

Turley is a great example.

Martinelli for the Chard and Pinot come to mind too.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#40 Post by PeterH » July 27th, 2020, 10:29 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 9:06 am
Wasn't Bergstrom a winery which went from a full-blown style into a more moderate style along the way?

I just had a few from the early phase -- the ones I had were the kinds of wines that were flashy young, and fell apart with even medium age. I've read on here that they've changed their style considerably, but I haven't felt compelled to revisit them after my bad experiences.
I bought Bergstrom wines for a couple of years because friends who got us into visiting Willamette wineries had them on the regular itinerary. Gradually we dropped them along with other overdone wines like Domaine Serene. Sometime soon after 2005 we met Paul de Lancellotti, son in law of John Bergstrom, at a tasting, and liked his rendition of the wine from de Lancellotti vineyard far better than the Bergstrom version. Paul explained that he preferred a less ripe, less oaky style.
The wine was actually made by Josh Bergstrom. Maybe the change in style took hold. I haven't gone back to trying Bergstrom wines again, but I have heard that there has been a change.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#41 Post by Chris Seiber » July 27th, 2020, 10:40 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 10:15 am
Martinelli for the Chard and Pinot come to mind too.
I hadn't heard that. What are they like now?

I drink a little KB every year. It's not nearly a 180 (really, most wines we are describing in this thread aren't either), but, like many California producers, they tested the upper limits of ripeness and big flavor in the early 2000s, and then have dialed back in the last 10-12 years towards a more mainstream medium size. They make pinots with alcohols in the 14.0 - 14.5 kind of range now.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#42 Post by Chris Seiber » July 27th, 2020, 10:45 am

Also not a 180, but during the time I was buying Dehlinger (maybe vintages 2000 to 2012 or so?), their style got markedly bigger, they got more and more points in the Spectator, and eventually they just didn't really work for me.

I have a lot of respect for their family and the quality of what they do, and I don't begrudge them any commercial success they get, but the style kind of outgrew me. Plus, I had always admired how well his wines aged, but I started to question whether the later releases would still do that with such high ripeness.

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#43 Post by Ian Dorin » July 27th, 2020, 12:59 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 10:40 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 10:15 am
Martinelli for the Chard and Pinot come to mind too.
I hadn't heard that. What are they like now?

I drink a little KB every year. It's not nearly a 180 (really, most wines we are describing in this thread aren't either), but, like many California producers, they tested the upper limits of ripeness and big flavor in the early 2000s, and then have dialed back in the last 10-12 years towards a more mainstream medium size. They make pinots with alcohols in the 14.0 - 14.5 kind of range now.
They still have great texture, there is just a ton more Pinot soul and character to the wines now.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#44 Post by Anders D » July 27th, 2020, 1:58 pm



this was posted recently and Copain and Ojai are discussed specifically for changing their approach to winemaking
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#45 Post by Wes Barton » July 27th, 2020, 3:40 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 9:12 am
Chris made a great point - Ryan was making wines along Adam Lee in the 2000s and everyone at that time was influenced by the richer, more 'flashy' wines of the times. Were there any that were following a different path back then? Sure - folks like Jim Clendenon, Bob Lindquist, Rod Berglund and a number of others, but the influence of the riper style definitely 'affected' many.
That's a wine forum myth. Adam's wines were all over the place in ripeness, as he's a very intellectually curious person who tried to get the best out of each site. I've been surrounded by fans for 15 years or so, so have tasted a huge amount from various parties and blind tastings. The organizer of our twice weekly blind tasting group has had one or two Siduri themed tastings a year and will often slip a pair of bottles into an 8-10 wine part of an extensive vintage retrospective series. There have been a few duds, but they tend to finish 1-2 or 1-3 against more prestigious wines. Some of his fans have strong preferences, like some prefer or only like his pretty, red-fruited Willamette Valley PNs, others proclaim to like everything but those, etc. So, with very few exceptions they've been well-balanced wines that age well, not the over-ripe flashy crap I detest. (Though, as a post script, I bet his worst, most ripe wines got the highest ratings and most attention. I know several Pinot makers embarrassed by their highest rated wine.)

So yes, the 2000s was a shitshow of amateurism for CA PN, but Siduri wasn't in that category. Most of the many many dozens of SCM PNs were picked at traditional ripeness. Most of those saw rustic winemaking and blew most of the flashy garbage out of the water. So, there were quite a few on a different path back then, but they tended to either not get rated or not get good ratings.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#46 Post by timmy roos » July 28th, 2020, 7:19 am

While it wasn’t a 180 some of the earlier (2005,2006?)kutch wines were bigger and fruit forward if my memory is correct
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#47 Post by Len Stevens » July 28th, 2020, 8:19 am

timmy roos wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 7:19 am
While it wasn’t a 180 some of the earlier (2005,2006?)kutch wines were bigger and fruit forward if my memory is correct
I think it's fair to say Jamie's style has "evolved" since his 03/04 debut, but I have been thrilled with where it has taken him!

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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#48 Post by William Kelley » July 28th, 2020, 10:00 am

A good example would be Jacquesson in Champagne, who have transformed themselves from a sizable négociant house into what is effectively a larger (26ha, supplemented by purchased fruit from a few hectares of vines contiguous with their own) grower-bottler operation.
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#49 Post by timmy roos » July 28th, 2020, 12:58 pm

Len Stevens wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 8:19 am
timmy roos wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 7:19 am
While it wasn’t a 180 some of the earlier (2005,2006?)kutch wines were bigger and fruit forward if my memory is correct
I think it's fair to say Jamie's style has "evolved" since his 03/04 debut, but I have been thrilled with where it has taken him!
Likewise. Above referred to Pinot of course but his chards are terrific
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Re: Producers Who have performed a total 180 on Winemaking style?

#50 Post by Oliver McCrum » July 28th, 2020, 4:07 pm

All sorts of Piedmontese producers went from barriques and 5-day macerations in roto-fermenter in the '90s to much more sensible now.
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