First Real Tribidrag??

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TomHill
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First Real Tribidrag??

#1 Post by TomHill » July 24th, 2020, 9:24 am

Steve & Carole have been selling their Tribidrag for a number of yrs. They openly acknowledge that it comes from Zinfandel they obtained in Calif, but call it the ancient Croatian name Tribidrag to honor the grapes origins. I have no problem with that usage.
I just recently received my first Tribidrag from Ridge (all of 3 brls made... a real Unicorn wine). This was made from Tribidrag cuttings brought from Croatia and planted at LS in 2014. Steve & Carole graciously gave Ridge permission to use the Tribidrag name.
To me, this would mark the first real Tribidrag wine in Calif (not to depreciate Steve & Carole's version.. which is one of Calif's best Zins), made from Croatian cuttings. Have there been any other Zins in Calif made from Croatian cuttings?? Carole??
It's the same story with Primitivo. Most producers who make a Primitivo are making it from cuttings originating in Apulia. I'm fine with that usage.
Way back in the '80's, HopKiln trademarked the name "Primitivo". The ATF was clueless that Primitivo was a grape name. The HopKiln Primitivo was made from their OV Zin planted back in the 1800's. Eventually, the trademark was rescinded and Primitivo became a recognized variety.
Does anyone know who produced Calif's first Primitivo... from Apulian cuttings??
Anyway, Steve & Carole's Zin/Tribidrag is one of the best in Calif. I'm looking forward to trying JohnOlney's expression of Tribidrag.
Tom

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#2 Post by Roy Piper » July 24th, 2020, 4:26 pm

Somehow I've never had Steve and Carole's Tribidrag, but will rectify that soon.
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#3 Post by Paul Miller » July 24th, 2020, 4:29 pm

Interesting history

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#4 Post by Jason T » July 24th, 2020, 10:23 pm

Paul Miller wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 4:29 pm
Interesting history
Carole’s commentary on Tribidrag in IDTT podcast is fascinating.
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Yup...

#5 Post by TomHill » July 25th, 2020, 6:44 am

Jason T wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 10:23 pm
Paul Miller wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 4:29 pm
Interesting history
Carole’s commentary on Tribidrag in IDTT podcast is fascinating.
Yup, Jason... totally agree. Carole should be along soon to comment here.
Tom

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#6 Post by Cris Whetstone » July 25th, 2020, 8:06 am

Carole also joined team Ridge recently to discuss Zinfandel/Tribidrag on a Thursday Zoom session. It's on YouTube now for those that missed it.
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#7 Post by Carole Meredith » July 25th, 2020, 10:03 am

I believe Ridge's Tribidrag is the only US Zin made from plant material (recently) sourced from Croatia. I really like it. The cuttings were sent to UC Davis for virus elimination treatment because the few vines found in Croatia were all virus-infected. The cleaned up vines were then returned to Croatia and planted to serve as a mother block for healthy new Croatian plantings. Ridge provided some financial support for this effort and received some of the plants.

As Cris said, I recently participated in a Ridge "Virtual Winemaker Rountable" about Zinfandel. Here's the link:

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Thanks...

#8 Post by TomHill » July 25th, 2020, 10:57 am

Carole Meredith wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 10:03 am
I believe Ridge's Tribidrag is the only US Zin made from plant material (recently) sourced from Croatia. I really like it. The cuttings were sent to UC Davis for virus elimination treatment because the few vines found in Croatia were all virus-infected. The cleaned up vines were then returned to Croatia and planted to serve as a mother block for healthy new Croatian plantings. Ridge provided some financial support for this effort and received some of the plants.

As Cris said, I recently participated in a Ridge "Virtual Winemaker Rountable" about Zinfandel. Here's the link:

Thanks, Carole... I was hoping you'd pop in here eventually. Do you know of anyone else who has the Croatian material in the ground?? I assume it's available to anybody thru FPS??
The Ridge Roundtable, about an hour long, is very much worth viewing.
I dawdled and missed out on the Ridge historic Zin 3-pak, it sold out in a day. But I went straight to the top and they freed one up for me. Nice to have friends in high places.
Tom

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#9 Post by Gabe Berk » July 25th, 2020, 12:52 pm

Fascinating study on the DNA of what we here call Zinfandel and end discussion on "clones" in general. Bravo to all involved! On a side note, love that the Heritage Vineyard clones were planted in the heart of Cabernet gold coast of Oakville. [cheers.gif]

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#10 Post by J a y H a c k » July 25th, 2020, 2:39 pm

I had one bottle of Carol and Steve's Tribidrag that I got as a Berserkerday wine years ago. I made the mistake of bringing it to a dinner at the home of a high school friend as a pre-reunion dinner and telling her that I really wanted to drink it, but thought I should try with some friends. Unfortunately, when I walked in the door, her husband took it out of my hand, said, "oh that looks nice" and it disappeared, never to be seen again during the evening. I have to buy another.

Luckily, they elected not to call it by its other Croatian name, Crljenak Kaštelanski.
Last edited by J a y H a c k on July 27th, 2020, 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thanks...

#11 Post by Carole Meredith » July 26th, 2020, 4:10 pm

TomHill wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 10:57 am
Thanks, Carole... I was hoping you'd pop in here eventually. Do you know of anyone else who has the Croatian material in the ground?? I assume it's available to anybody thru FPS??
I don't know of anyone else in the U.S. who has the Croatian plant material in the ground. And I don't know whether it's publicly available. Some vine selections at FPS can be kept proprietary if the testing and disease elimination treatment are paid for by a private party, as was the case here with Ridge. The Ridge plant material was initially a proprietary importation in cooperation with the University of Zagreb in Croatia but I don't know whether that will be its permanent status.

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Re: Thanks...

#12 Post by TomHill » July 26th, 2020, 4:44 pm

Carole Meredith wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:10 pm
TomHill wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 10:57 am
Thanks, Carole... I was hoping you'd pop in here eventually. Do you know of anyone else who has the Croatian material in the ground?? I assume it's available to anybody thru FPS??
I don't know of anyone else in the U.S. who has the Croatian plant material in the ground. And I don't know whether it's publicly available. Some vine selections at FPS can be kept proprietary if the testing and disease elimination treatment are paid for by a private party, as was the case here with Ridge. The Ridge plant material was initially a proprietary importation in cooperation with the University of Zagreb in Croatia but I don't know whether that will be its permanent status.

Carole
Knowing Ridge and Dave Gates, I suspect they'd be willing to share the plant material.
Is there ever a chance the TTB would wise up & call a halt to Tribidrag??
Tom

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Re: Thanks...

#13 Post by J a y H a c k » July 27th, 2020, 4:26 am

TomHill wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:44 pm
. . .
Is there ever a chance the TTB would wise up & call a halt to Tribidrag??
Tom
What would be the basis for doing that?
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Well...

#14 Post by TomHill » July 27th, 2020, 6:37 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 4:26 am
TomHill wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:44 pm
. . .
Is there ever a chance the TTB would wise up & call a halt to Tribidrag??
Tom
What would be the basis for doing that?
Well, Jay... because Tribidrag is a grape variety name... but not a variety they officially recognize.
Tom

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Re: Thanks...

#15 Post by Tegan Passalacqua » July 27th, 2020, 8:07 am

TomHill wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:44 pm
Carole Meredith wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 4:10 pm
TomHill wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 10:57 am
Thanks, Carole... I was hoping you'd pop in here eventually. Do you know of anyone else who has the Croatian material in the ground?? I assume it's available to anybody thru FPS??
I don't know of anyone else in the U.S. who has the Croatian plant material in the ground. And I don't know whether it's publicly available. Some vine selections at FPS can be kept proprietary if the testing and disease elimination treatment are paid for by a private party, as was the case here with Ridge. The Ridge plant material was initially a proprietary importation in cooperation with the University of Zagreb in Croatia but I don't know whether that will be its permanent status.

Carole
Knowing Ridge and Dave Gates, I suspect they'd be willing to share the plant material.

Tom
Tom-
I believe that Ridge has the exclusive rights for 5 years. David shared some with me and we planted 1 acre (1/2 acre of each selection) at The Turley Estate in St. Helena. We should get the first albeit small crop in 2021.
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Interesting..

#16 Post by TomHill » July 27th, 2020, 8:16 am

Interesting, Tegan. Look forward to trying yours.
In the vnyd, do you notice anything different with the Croatian material from Zinfandel??
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#17 Post by Dan Kravitz » July 27th, 2020, 5:34 pm

Speaking of Croatia, has anybody planted any Grk in California?

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Uhhhh...

#18 Post by TomHill » July 27th, 2020, 6:22 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 5:34 pm
Speaking of Croatia, has anybody planted any Grk in California?
Dan Kravitz
Uhhhhh, Dan.... didn't you forget some vowels in there??
To best of my knowledge, there is no Grk in this country. Winemakers complain that GWT is a hard sell in the US because people have a hard time pronouncing it. Probably Grk would lead them to pull out their hair.
Is there some reason Grk should be in Calif?
There are a lot of indigenous varieties in Croatia/Bulgaria/Romania/Georgia, even Italy, that could make some interesting wines. BryanHarrington was a good JohhnyAppleseed. But you'd need PamelaAnderson to market them for you!!
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#19 Post by PFMay » July 28th, 2020, 9:41 am

TomHill wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:24 am

To me, this would mark the first real Tribidrag wine in Calif
Hi Tom

First, thanks for this thought provoking thread and Carole Meredith for the fascinating Ridge video.

I'm wondering whether Croatian cuttings grown in California are any more 'Tribidrag' than Zinfandel or Primitivo?

In the Ridge video we hear that wine from Tribidrag cuttings taste differently according to where it is planted. Joel Peterson (Once & Future) says* that Zinfandel, more than any other variety, he knows reflects the place it is grown (and rootstock).

I haven't tasted any California Primitivo but Puglian Primitivo doesn't taste to me like California Zinfandel. Neither does South African Zinfandel.

So, if Tribidrag/Primitivo/Zinfandel is such a chameleon in adapting to its place of planting, isn't the only place that can produce Croatian Tribidrag - Croatia?

* in this recording of a Zoom seminar by him -
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#20 Post by Marshall Manning » July 28th, 2020, 9:47 am

Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 27th, 2020, 5:34 pm
Speaking of Croatia, has anybody planted any Grk in California?

Dan Kravitz
I tried one once, so it's not Grk to me, and really enjoyed it. A friend had brought it back from a visit and blind tasted it with us. Of course no one got it, but I would love to try more. Does any importer bring them into the States?
Marshall

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#21 Post by Carole Meredith » July 31st, 2020, 2:52 pm

PFMay wrote:
July 28th, 2020, 9:41 am
Hi Tom

First, thanks for this thought provoking thread and Carole Meredith for the fascinating Ridge video.

I'm wondering whether Croatian cuttings grown in California are any more 'Tribidrag' than Zinfandel or Primitivo?

In the Ridge video we hear that wine from Tribidrag cuttings taste differently according to where it is planted. Joel Peterson (Once & Future) says* that Zinfandel, more than any other variety, he knows reflects the place it is grown (and rootstock).

I haven't tasted any California Primitivo but Puglian Primitivo doesn't taste to me like California Zinfandel. Neither does South African Zinfandel.

So, if Tribidrag/Primitivo/Zinfandel is such a chameleon in adapting to its place of planting, isn't the only place that can produce Croatian Tribidrag - Croatia?
I think Zinfandel is the same as any other very old grape variety that has become widely distributed geographically over time, in that different clones have developed as a result of the geographic isolation. Zinfandel, Primitivo and Tribidrag are clones of the same variety. And there is also additional clonal variantion within each of the three.

In the 2 or 3 centuries since the variety was introduced to Italy and to California, many propagation cycles, combined with the criteria used by local growers to select budwood for propagating new vineyards, have resulted in a degree of genetic divergence from the original plant material in Croatia. This is seen in many other old varieties (e.g., Pinot, Syrah). (It's a time and numbers thing. The more time passing, and the more vines planted, the more genetic divergence is to be expected.)

So it is reasonable to expect that Zinfandel and Primitivo and Tribidrag even when grown on the same site will each yield slightly different expressions of the variety. Then if you layer on the obvious influence of site on top of the clonal differences, it is to be expected that Primitivo grown in Italy will taste different than Zinfandel grown in California than Tribidrag grown in Croatia. So, yes, the only place that can produced Croatian Tribidrag wine is Croatia. And the only place that can produce Californian Tribidrag wine is California. But both versions of Tribidrag are more 'Tribidrag' than are Zin or Primitivo grown anywhere.

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#22 Post by A G Aguirre » August 1st, 2020, 6:56 pm

After reading this thread I was curious to try the wine. We stopped at Compline in Napa after tasting at Sinskey today (fantastic, by the way,) and they had the 2017 on the list! Fantastic wine to have with their burger. What took us back about this wine was how prominent the acid was. A mix of tart/rasinated fruits as you’d expect with Zin, but with a strong line of refreshing acid running through and no heaviness. So balanced and an excellent food wine. Bottle says three barrels made. Feel lucky to have tasted!
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Wow...

#23 Post by TomHill » August 1st, 2020, 7:55 pm

A G Aguirre wrote:
August 1st, 2020, 6:56 pm
After reading this thread I was curious to try the wine. We stopped at Compline in Napa after tasting at Sinskey today (fantastic, by the way,) and they had the 2017 on the list! Fantastic wine to have with their burger. What took us back about this wine was how prominent the acid was. A mix of tart/rasinated fruits as you’d expect with Zin, but with a strong line of refreshing acid running through and no heaviness. So balanced and an excellent food wine. Bottle says three barrels made. Feel lucky to have tasted!
Wow, Arturo....amazed that any of that Ridge Tribidrag made it out to retail. CarolMeredith has spoken very highly of the wine.
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Re: Wow...

#24 Post by A G Aguirre » August 2nd, 2020, 7:07 pm

TomHill wrote:
August 1st, 2020, 7:55 pm
A G Aguirre wrote:
August 1st, 2020, 6:56 pm
After reading this thread I was curious to try the wine. We stopped at Compline in Napa after tasting at Sinskey today (fantastic, by the way,) and they had the 2017 on the list! Fantastic wine to have with their burger. What took us back about this wine was how prominent the acid was. A mix of tart/rasinated fruits as you’d expect with Zin, but with a strong line of refreshing acid running through and no heaviness. So balanced and an excellent food wine. Bottle says three barrels made. Feel lucky to have tasted!
Wow, Arturo....amazed that any of that Ridge Tribidrag made it out to retail. CarolMeredith has spoken very highly of the wine.
Tom
Indeed - must be only a handful of places. Curious to hear your thoughts whenever you get around to popping one!
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#25 Post by Drew Goin » August 3rd, 2020, 10:39 am

This thread is awesome.

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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#26 Post by lleichtman » August 3rd, 2020, 11:01 am

Drew Goin wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 10:39 am
This thread is awesome.
Agreed, quite fascinating. I had no knowledge of Tribidrag before this thread started.
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Re: First Real Tribidrag??

#27 Post by lleichtman » August 3rd, 2020, 11:02 am

TomHill wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:24 am
Steve & Carole have been selling their Tribidrag for a number of yrs. They openly acknowledge that it comes from Zinfandel they obtained in Calif, but call it the ancient Croatian name Tribidrag to honor the grapes origins. I have no problem with that usage.
I just recently received my first Tribidrag from Ridge (all of 3 brls made... a real Unicorn wine). This was made from Tribidrag cuttings brought from Croatia and planted at LS in 2014. Steve & Carole graciously gave Ridge permission to use the Tribidrag name.
To me, this would mark the first real Tribidrag wine in Calif (not to depreciate Steve & Carole's version.. which is one of Calif's best Zins), made from Croatian cuttings. Have there been any other Zins in Calif made from Croatian cuttings?? Carole??
It's the same story with Primitivo. Most producers who make a Primitivo are making it from cuttings originating in Apulia. I'm fine with that usage.
Way back in the '80's, HopKiln trademarked the name "Primitivo". The ATF was clueless that Primitivo was a grape name. The HopKiln Primitivo was made from their OV Zin planted back in the 1800's. Eventually, the trademark was rescinded and Primitivo became a recognized variety.
Does anyone know who produced Calif's first Primitivo... from Apulian cuttings??
Anyway, Steve & Carole's Zin/Tribidrag is one of the best in Calif. I'm looking forward to trying JohnOlney's expression of Tribidrag.
Tom
Tom, does any NM retailer carry this? If not, where did you buy it?
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Sorry...

#28 Post by TomHill » August 3rd, 2020, 11:25 am

Sorry, Larry... pretty much unavailable. They released it as a 3-pak to members who belonged to all 3 Ridge clubs. It sold out in one day. I dawdled and missed out. I appealed to high friends at Ridge and they freed up a 3-pak for me.
Tom

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