Old World vs New World tasting

Hi,

I was wondering about what the best ways of doing an Old World vs New World tasting are. For example, say I wanted to try some of the top Australian wines in their category, such as Leeuwin Art Series Chardonnay, By Farr RP Pinot Noir, Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier, Cullen Diana Madeline Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot, and wanted to taste them against an Old World counterpart as reference point, how would you do it?

First of all there is the matter of price. Most of the wines I have listed retail for about A$110 (USD$76) over here. This price gets me a village wine in Burgundy, a 5th growth in Bordeaux, and hardly any Cote Rotie. Do you try to match them against wines of similar price or do you bite the bullet and go for wines of twice or more the price to get some real competition?

Second I guess there is age. Do you keep ages on a similar level, lets say around 10 years old each, or you give more time to the Old World and go for a younger New World?

For those of you who have done experiments in this matter, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

What is Old and New World to you? To me Old/New is technique in making the wines.

It’s a bit tough to do this based on Aussie prices, as I’m in the US, but there’s certainly Cote Rotie/Cornas in the $75 range over here. Is stuff like Xavier Gerard, Guillaume Gilles, Vincent Paris, Balthazar, Clusel Roch (not the Grand Places) not available in Oz at those prices? I apologize for the ignorance if they’re far more marked, as I don’t know, but those are the suggestions I’d make for the region in that price point off the top of my head based on my own purchasing (not the Paris, but still).

I have never tasted any Touriga Nacional wines from Australia, but there are plenty of producers using the grape nowadays. A quick search got me to this list:

Old World: Europe
New World: USA, Australia, South Africa, et al

I admit that I’m not too versed in Northern Rhone yet, so I was mostly thinking about Guigal’s Cote Roties. A quick search gave me a 2016 Xavier Gerard for A$135 which fits the bill.

Ha, now this is surprising, Tomas: Yarra Yering produces a Touriga-based blend, and, in a funny game of coincidences, we keep crossing roads. Yarra Yering is on my list of wineries to visit in the Yarra Valley, hence I can taste this wine directly at the cellar door once the pandemic cools off again. I checked their website but all this is jibberish to me: do you mind translating it in words I can understand?

Leading with the powerful fruit and licorice spice of Touriga Naçional, the Tinta Cãobrings bright and fragrant blue fruit energy. Tinta Roriz brings a savoury depth to the palate to compliment the Tinta Amarela’s floral and bay leaf herbal lift. To tie everything together the finesse of Alvarelhão and the acidity of the Sousão tightens and drives the long palate.

I wouldn’t open Guigal young, as those wines see a ton of new oak (I’m not a Guigal fan period, but that’s a personal opinion). The Gerard might be a fun one to open either way, as I find his base Cote Rotie to be a touch glossy (though still very good), which should be a nice entry point into old world wines. It’s definitely northern rhone, just not SUPER old school. Gerard is also usually very accessible young.

for N Rhone, there are definitely great options. Search our Xavier Gerard, Domaine Faury. Also, N Rhone is one of those places where some “insider” knowledge can get you some great wines. for example: Clape doesnt actually own any wines in southern rhone, but still bottles a “cotes du rhone” made from all N Rhone syrah for something like half the price of the Cornas. some producers make great wines that they label “collines rhodaniennes” -like Faury- for pretty great deals (Faury’s is like… $20?) Also, look for classic named producers that make a St Joseph. Even the most famous name for the N Rhone (arguably), Chave, makes a St Joseph thats about 1/4 the price of their Hermitage (although that wine is getting more expensive).

I do agree with Greg on Guigal wines. The times ive had them, they tend to taste like Guigal more than like their respective terroir. even aged sometimes.

Personally, in a comparative tasting like this, I try to keep as many factors consistent as possible. So if you want to compare Old world vs New, i would try to shoot for a similar price point, similar age, etc.

Now that’s interesting! What that article describes is a typical Douro blend - all those varietals tick the boxes. I knew Touriga Nacional was being planted in Australia, but I had no idea they were replicating the exact same blend that the Douro uses. That means you can and should compare those wines to any of the typical Douro wines I have mentioned to you previously, resulting in the experiment you intended.

The challenge is, as others have mentioned, not only finding ‘old world’ producers (traditionally the term refers to those in France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, etc where the wines are names for a place rather than a variety) but also producers whose production methods ‘speak’ of old world wines. Not an easy thing to do these days . . .

Cheers.

For Chardonnay, find wines from Bernard Moreau, Drouhin, Bouchard or Heitz-Locardet (white Burgundy) and Christian Moreau (Chablis).

For Pinot Noir, look for a wines from producers such as Hudelot-Noellat, Rossignol-Trapet, Trapet, Pierre Amiot, or Drouhin. I think the wines need to be 10 years old or more for you to be able to tell anything.

Also, do Riesling. For German wines, try Zilliken, Reinhold Haart or Schloss Lieser. If you want to do this with older wines, find JJ Prum. Through in a Trimbach Cuvee Frederick Emile from Alsace for totally different expressions.

“This price gets me a village wine in Burgundy, a 5th growth in Bordeaux, and hardly any Cote Rotie. Do you try to match them against wines of similar price or do you bite the bullet and go for wines of twice or more the price to get some real competition?”

[rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] I think it is really funny that you don’t think villages level wines from Bernard Moreau or Hudelot-Noellat won’t be able to compete. [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]

Hmm. Those are interesting stylistic choices for Burgundy. I think the OP will get very different results depending on what he picks. Certainly Heitz-Lochardet and Drouhin are quite different, imho.

Agreed. And Bouchard and Drouhin are even more different from each other. If it were me, I would leave out the Australian wines and get wines from the five white Burgundy and Chablis producers to see the differences you are describing. I picked the four I did based on the fact that these are some of my favorite producers in his price range (Ramonet would be too expensive). I started with Moreau and Heitz-Lochardet because I love their villages level wines (and in the case of Moreau their St. Aubin premier cru) and then added Drouhin and Bouchard in case the other two are too hard to find. Frankly, if he can get Bouchard’s 2017 Meursault Perrieres or Genevrieres for around $80 (what I paid for the Perrieres, but that was a couple of years ago), I would think it would be game, set and match.

Agreed, Bouchard whites are a good representation of white Burgundy. Personally, I’d exclude Amiot as my experiences with that producer have been consistently disappointing, but I agree with your overall point.

I am talking about Pierre Amiot in MSD. Are you discussing the same Amiot? I have not had that many wines from Pierre Amiot, but I tasted through their range in 2018 at the winery and enjoyed their wines. I also recently had a 2012 MSD Millandes that was quite nice. I mentioned these wines because they can be very well priced, at least at the winery and in the US.

I almost finished my comment with something similar to this.

just to reiterate to the OP: don’t let anyone tell you there aren’t really good Burgundies under $100. that’s just crazy talk from people who like to spend money. Barthod Bourgogne and Chambolle-Musigny, Jouan even makes some 1ers under $100, Chevillon, Montille has some 1ers in the 60-70 range, Bize makes great wines in that range, Voillot, Villaines label has good character for like $40-50… and thats while still sticking with some pretty big names.

Geographically, Old World wines comes from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. Places like Israel, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Armenia, Georgia, Austria, Poland, France, Spain and Italy all produce what is considered Old World wine.

When I do an old world/new world tasting for fun, I concentrate on the varieties. PN, Chardonnay, Riesling, Bordeaux blends, Malbec, Chenin Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc, etc.

Leading with the powerful fruit and licorice spice of Touriga Naçional, the Tinta Cãobrings bright and fragrant blue fruit energy. Tinta Roriz brings a savoury depth to the palate to compliment the Tinta Amarela’s floral and bay leaf herbal lift. To tie everything together the finesse of Alvarelhão and the acidity of the Sousão tightens and drives the long palate.

And Tinta Roriz is the same variety as Tempranillo in Spain. Rioja and Ribera del Duero.

My advice would be to see this as a process. So sure, be broadly aware of the range of themes to compare and contrast wines, but don’t over-think it too much. Do one that makes sense, then let what you and the others observe help guide you in future themes. You surely have some ideas what practical and intellectual aspects you want to explore, but you’ll find others as you go.

It can make a lot of sense to use a group tasting to pool resources to try wines above your normal comfort zones. Do that too often and it can become cost-prohibitive for some in the group.

Tasting a broad range of styles can be informative to which wines appeal to each of you, but may get tedious quickly, especially if too many wines are outside everyone’s preferences. If you jump to a too narrow stylistic range, you may miss the boat on what people like - so, perhaps build such a theme around a couple wines you know you like to see how others compare.

Tasting “too young” wines is a nice intellectual exercise, but it can get tedious. Plenty to learn, it can help guide what you may want to buy to cellar, but it’s good to mix things up and get some other themes in between doing these.

There’s also themes like pairings, like having a current and 10 years older bottle of each wine in the flight.

Along those lines, you can intentionally include good examples of “traditional” and “modern” domestic wines of a type vs traditional and modern versions from Europe.

This was one I put together. I think it’s a great idea for blind tasting. Not so much to declare a winner and loser, but to learn from how a grape expresses in one region and tradition compared to another.

“You think I’m funny? Funny how? Like, I amuse you?” [wink.gif]

You say that I need to find something that’s at least 10 years old. Hudelot Noellat’s 2017 Chambolle Musigny is A$145, good luck finding one with 10 years on it for below A$110. Bernard Moreau is a bit better, with a 2016 Chassagne-Montrachet VV at A$121, but again, no sign of aged bottles on auction.

To give it back to you: I think it is really funny that you think I can find good aged Burgundy for below A$110 [cheers.gif] (I can, but it ain’t that easy).


Almost all of those are priced well above A$110 (as I said, USD$76 but with taxes a wine that starts at around USD$50 can go up to A$100 in Australia).

Barthod Chambolle Musigny A$187
Chevillon Nuit-Saint-Georges A$181
Montille 1er Crus A$200+

Within the price range I can get AP Villaines (A$70), Barthod Bourgone (A$85), and Bize Beaune villages (A$90).

I’m not saying that you can’t drink well in Burgundy for below USD$100, I’m asking what do I pick to match top Australian wines and do I try to match them price for price.


Bouchard I can get the Les Clous for A$106, the Genevries is A$200.


That’s a very well put together tasting, Chris, thanks for sharing. You are right that the focus is educational, at the same time it is also useful to gauge what the same amount of $ gets you in different parts of the world.