Ever boycott a winery?

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Richard Jen
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#251 Post by Richard Jen » June 18th, 2020, 9:12 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 9:04 am
I really hope the idea of Equal Rights and Protections under the law is not a "political" topic to folks here. Same with the topic of racism.

Those shouldn't be "political" topics.

Take a moment to consider the implications of the scenario in which they *are* considered "political" topics.
^^ This.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#252 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » June 18th, 2020, 9:14 am

Also: this Board has an admirable history of supporting valuable social causes. And those threads have not been littered, or even sprinkled, with dissension. I find it odd, and terribly disappointing, to see it's the topic of fighting against racism that's drawing-out some arguments that could have equally been made before, but weren't. The logical inconsistency is clear. And the fact that it's this topic says a lot.

Would anyone be up in arms if the Pax email had, instead of expressing support for BLM, instead expressed support for Laura's House? (Which I assume the vast majority of posters in this thread know about) How about if the topic had been supporting folks in wine country affected by wildfires? ...
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#253 Post by Sean S y d n e y » June 18th, 2020, 9:27 am

Brian nailed it in so many words. The idea that Black Lives Matter is considered political is really depressing, and like I said before; if you can avoid being affected by this issue except for a stray e-mail or two, you live a charmed* life that probably has room for a little more dedication towards education and support for causes of justice.

*i won't say the p-word, because apparently that's an "ideology" and "pontification" and not a plain statement of fact that people ALSO get defensive about and dub "political".
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#254 Post by AndyK » June 18th, 2020, 9:37 am

I agree with everything Brian said! (this time neener )
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#255 Post by Bob Davis » June 18th, 2020, 9:47 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 12:38 pm
I guess the way I see it if you ignore what you consider bad behavior by a person or business, you’re enabling it. If you let the papa john’s guy be racist and keep buying his pizza and running his ads, then he’s not encouraged to change. I’m not a huge fan of cancel culture and internet Lynch mobs but I do feel like I’m not going to support businesses/ppl with my money if I’m offended by their behavior.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#256 Post by Frank Murray III » June 18th, 2020, 10:09 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 9:27 am
Brian nailed it in so many words. The idea that Black Lives Matter is considered political is really depressing, and like I said before; if you can avoid being affected by this issue except for a stray e-mail or two, you live a charmed* life that probably has room for a little more dedication towards education and support for causes of justice.

*i won't say the p-word, because apparently that's an "ideology" and "pontification" and not a plain statement of fact that people ALSO get defensive about and dub "political".
Yes, and no recognition that it could be offending. This Board of ours, I love it. I've met so many terrific people here. Yet, look at the Board, look at Page 1. How many names of women do you see posting? Count them. And, then look tomorrow, and next week. Same result you will see.

We need diversity here to help drive discussion, not just dudes talking wine, but both genders would be beneficial. But, we can toss out the word pussy, and then call it a joke, or sarcasm, or whatever. Being respectful should not be an option for some, it should be a value for everyone.

And if you want to attack me for censoring, fine. But respect and dignity for people needs to start with all of us, and deflecting the use of the word is the very reason we are in such a shit storm of culture war right now in the US...no one wants to own any of their conduct...simply just blame someone else.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#257 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 10:28 am

I think there are more women making wine than there are posting about wine here. But there are a lot of women winemakers/writers/merchants/somms on Instagram trying to promote their wine business and their political thoughts.

I see Kelli White, Vanessa Hart, Leslie Sbrocco, Angela Mondavi and her sisters,Paula Kornell, Cathy Corison, Laura Catena and many others quite frequently.

The great thing about Instagram is that you can edit the photos to make yourself look pretty good. Jasper Morris actually looks quite dashing on Instagram...the miracle of photoshop??
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#258 Post by Dennis Borczon » June 18th, 2020, 10:48 am

Be careful Mel. I notice you have not posted any personal photos here. Cut Jasper a break, he probably has not had a professional haircut in months. Besides that he has a British Oxfordian accent which makes him sound at least 20 points smarter that the rest of us former colonists...

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#259 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » June 18th, 2020, 10:51 am

R M Kriete wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:22 am
Dale Bowers wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 6:17 pm
[

Jeff,

I see the moderators have removed my original post that called you a racist. I’m okay with that. You’re right I don’t know you. Nevertheless, if the Email (it’s not like he called you on your phone) from Pax offering support and information about BLM so offended you that you have decided to boycott them, then I stand by my original post.
Doubling down on calling someone a racist....even after the moderators removed it. Wow!

Look at this thread where we've seen people give passes to pedophiles and child abusers. I dare say most people would rather have their picture published in the paper arrested for DUI than be publicly labeled a racist. In this country, at this time, there is nothing more damaging than to call someone a racist. If you are going to hurl that nuclear bomb of accusation at someone, you'd better be pretty darn positive.
I don’t support or condone Dale’s statement. And bluntly, if Jeff boycotts any winery sending him emails about things other than wine, then he’s more curmudgeon than anything else.

While the issue of racism in America is hugely important to me, and more so than ever right now. Even if this is the most opportune time to deal with the issue that I have seen, it’s not an obligation for every American to take an active role in that change.
Yes, I believe that racism is a “white” problem. But Jeff is also a physician, and his profession is fighting a war on a different front right now. While I might be disappointed that he would choose to view Pax’s email as a robocall, I am also disappointed with using the energy we currently have to label someone a racist based upon so little awareness of who they are.

I speak my mind on this forum all of the time. I speak what I think is correct, and I also try to listen to those posters who feel differently than I do. But I definitely try not to tell the other posters who they are.

The statement that BLM has been co-opted by far left anarchists is foolish. NAACP-LDF is by no means supporting anarchy, and they are as involved with BLM as anyone. To corner BLM into the current protests, peaceful or not, is to forget that BLM goes far beyond just protesting and that ultimately reforming and removing racism will also increase the safety and well-being of police officers.

For anyone viewing Seattle’s autonomous zone as a demonstration that the “far left” has taken over and anarchy is in place, my advice is that we wait and aee how it turns out rather than condemn it for simply being different than how we normally do things. I don’t think our country could function in this manner at all. But I do think that it’s a path that we should observe and see what we can learn from it.
At the very least it asks citizens to be citizens instead of snarkily suggesting that we as a culture are unable to handle being citizens without a militarized oversight. I am not anti-government at all, but I do think we should spend more time trying things and looking at the results and less time speculating on how nothing but the status quo can work.

I also would openly rather have my photo in the paper for a DUI than be a racist. Drunk driving at a societal level does a huge amount of harm, I don’t condone it and I fully support enforcing laws that put teeth into preventing it. My mother was in an accident with a drunk driver that left her with a leg broken in 7 places, and has led to her dealing with ankle,knee, and back problems ever since. One of my good friends was cited for DUi and in my opinion it was a crucial step in helping move her to the place she needed to be in order to go into recovery. But DUI is a problem of addiction and stupidity.

Racism is a problem of repression and fear. One that negatively impacts the lives of far more people than even drunk driving(which is no small feat). I would hope to not ever have to choose between these but I know which I feel is worse(and that may be my own prejudice but I understand and am familiar with the effects of DUI more closely than most).

It may seem like this thread is giving a pass to pedophiles and abusers, but I hope that isn’t true. When faced an individual, like Polanski, we have to face the fact that few are truly 100% good or 100% bad. And it can seem that we are willing show leniency, especially if we are denying a similar leniency for contradicting a movement(BLM). But pedophilia/child abuse is horrific, and viewed with out a person(like Woddy Allen or Polanski) I doubt you would find many that would say racism is worse. Hopefully, they can just be equally repugnant.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#260 Post by Sean S y d n e y » June 18th, 2020, 10:53 am

I gotta say, going from "there are lots of women on Instagram" to talking about physical appearance and editing photos regardless of using Jasper as an example is probably closer to proving Frank's point than you intended.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#261 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 10:53 am

I have the same haircut. The last one was in January. You can see my pic on Instagram but if you stare at it very long you turn to stone.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#262 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 10:56 am

Sean,
Not intended. I was working on insulting Jasper but he is probably asleep now.

It would be great if there were more women posting here but I don't see that happening.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#263 Post by Marshall Manning » June 18th, 2020, 10:56 am

Mel Knox wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:53 am
I have the same haircut. The last one was in January. You can see my pic on Instagram but if you stare at it very long you turn to stone.
Meldusa? [cheers.gif]
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#264 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 11:07 am

I am stunned and wordless, Marshall !
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#265 Post by Max K » June 18th, 2020, 11:08 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 9:14 am
I find it odd, and terribly disappointing, to see it's the topic of fighting against racism that's drawing-out some arguments that could have equally been made before, but weren't. The logical inconsistency is clear. And the fact that it's this topic says a lot.
Brian, I think the reason is that everyone does not agree on the definition of racism, and there are some (many? or perhaps just very loud) progressive advocates seeking to significantly expand it in ways that some of us find at best incoherent, at worst racist themselves. This article illustrates some of what I'm referring to: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... ine-racism

References to BLM can be interpreted as anything from a call to address instances and/or patterns of injustice, to the endorsement of accusations that entire professions and ethic groups are inherently racist. Hence the varied reactions.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#266 Post by Sjmotta » June 18th, 2020, 11:14 am

H Guy wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 1:40 pm
Alpha Omega due to a certain minority investor.
+1
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#267 Post by Marshall Manning » June 18th, 2020, 11:17 am

Frank Murray III wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:09 am
Yes, and no recognition that it could be offending. This Board of ours, I love it. I've met so many terrific people here. Yet, look at the Board, look at Page 1. How many names of women do you see posting? Count them. And, then look tomorrow, and next week. Same result you will see.

We need diversity here to help drive discussion, not just dudes talking wine, but both genders would be beneficial.
Frank, I don't think this is something particular to this board. I've been around internet wine forums for many years and they have always been primarily male. Maybe it's the way men talk about wine? But maybe it's just that men are more geeky about it than women..in general, of course? Most wine geeks I know are male, and despite always trying to include women in wine events, it's the guys who are talking about wine most of the time. I think many women just prefer to enjoy it as opposed to obsessing about it. But you could say the same thing about a lot of hobbies.

I found Linda Baehr's comment earlier in this thread interesting. She said it's the first time she's posted in "Wine Talk" in years. Not to put her on the spot, but I think it would be interesting to hear why her and other women don't post as much here. The women wine geeks I've known on and off-line over the years have always impressed me with their notes, insights and tasting ability and it would be great to have them feel welcome here.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#268 Post by Steve Gautier » June 18th, 2020, 11:29 am

David Baum wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:40 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:14 pm
David Baum wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:24 pm
My goal is to boycott all of them this month
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#269 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » June 18th, 2020, 11:35 am

Max K wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 11:08 am
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 9:14 am
I find it odd, and terribly disappointing, to see it's the topic of fighting against racism that's drawing-out some arguments that could have equally been made before, but weren't. The logical inconsistency is clear. And the fact that it's this topic says a lot.
Brian, I think the reason is that everyone does not agree on the definition of racism, and there are some (many? or perhaps just very loud) progressive advocates seeking to significantly expand it in ways that some of us find at best incoherent, at worst racist themselves. This article illustrates some of what I'm referring to: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... ine-racism

References to BLM can be interpreted as anything from a call to address instances and/or patterns of injustice, to the endorsement of accusations that entire professions and ethic groups are inherently racist. Hence the varied reactions.
Thanks for posting, Max. I'll read the article later, and wrap back around with a more meaningful reply to your post.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#270 Post by Mike Maguire » June 18th, 2020, 11:46 am

I have to admit I did boycott a local winery when they sold the family winery to
people outside the US.It was petty as the former owners were friends.It took me awhile but I got over it. [cheers.gif]

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#271 Post by David Baum » June 18th, 2020, 12:19 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 6:42 am
David Baum wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:40 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:14 pm


Hell, you guys attacked Santa.
He had it comin'
I am happy I know you. [cheers.gif]
I'll make it up to Chico again someday so i can sit outside your house and boo you [cheers.gif]

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#272 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 18th, 2020, 12:46 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:51 am
R M Kriete wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:22 am
Dale Bowers wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 6:17 pm
[

Jeff,

I see the moderators have removed my original post that called you a racist. I’m okay with that. You’re right I don’t know you. Nevertheless, if the Email (it’s not like he called you on your phone) from Pax offering support and information about BLM so offended you that you have decided to boycott them, then I stand by my original post.
Doubling down on calling someone a racist....even after the moderators removed it. Wow!

Look at this thread where we've seen people give passes to pedophiles and child abusers. I dare say most people would rather have their picture published in the paper arrested for DUI than be publicly labeled a racist. In this country, at this time, there is nothing more damaging than to call someone a racist. If you are going to hurl that nuclear bomb of accusation at someone, you'd better be pretty darn positive.
I don’t support or condone Dale’s statement. And bluntly, if Jeff boycotts any winery sending him emails about things other than wine, then he’s more curmudgeon than anything else.

While the issue of racism in America is hugely important to me, and more so than ever right now. Even if this is the most opportune time to deal with the issue that I have seen, it’s not an obligation for every American to take an active role in that change.
Yes, I believe that racism is a “white” problem. But Jeff is also a physician, and his profession is fighting a war on a different front right now. While I might be disappointed that he would choose to view Pax’s email as a robocall, I am also disappointed with using the energy we currently have to label someone a racist based upon so little awareness of who they are.

I speak my mind on this forum all of the time. I speak what I think is correct, and I also try to listen to those posters who feel differently than I do. But I definitely try not to tell the other posters who they are.

The statement that BLM has been co-opted by far left anarchists is foolish. NAACP-LDF is by no means supporting anarchy, and they are as involved with BLM as anyone. To corner BLM into the current protests, peaceful or not, is to forget that BLM goes far beyond just protesting and that ultimately reforming and removing racism will also increase the safety and well-being of police officers.

For anyone viewing Seattle’s autonomous zone as a demonstration that the “far left” has taken over and anarchy is in place, my advice is that we wait and aee how it turns out rather than condemn it for simply being different than how we normally do things. I don’t think our country could function in this manner at all. But I do think that it’s a path that we should observe and see what we can learn from it.
At the very least it asks citizens to be citizens instead of snarkily suggesting that we as a culture are unable to handle being citizens without a militarized oversight. I am not anti-government at all, but I do think we should spend more time trying things and looking at the results and less time speculating on how nothing but the status quo can work.

I also would openly rather have my photo in the paper for a DUI than be a racist. Drunk driving at a societal level does a huge amount of harm, I don’t condone it and I fully support enforcing laws that put teeth into preventing it. My mother was in an accident with a drunk driver that left her with a leg broken in 7 places, and has led to her dealing with ankle,knee, and back problems ever since. One of my good friends was cited for DUi and in my opinion it was a crucial step in helping move her to the place she needed to be in order to go into recovery. But DUI is a problem of addiction and stupidity.

Racism is a problem of repression and fear. One that negatively impacts the lives of far more people than even drunk driving(which is no small feat). I would hope to not ever have to choose between these but I know which I feel is worse(and that may be my own prejudice but I understand and am familiar with the effects of DUI more closely than most).

It may seem like this thread is giving a pass to pedophiles and abusers, but I hope that isn’t true. When faced an individual, like Polanski, we have to face the fact that few are truly 100% good or 100% bad. And it can seem that we are willing show leniency, especially if we are denying a similar leniency for contradicting a movement(BLM). But pedophilia/child abuse is horrific, and viewed with out a person(like Woddy Allen or Polanski) I doubt you would find many that would say racism is worse. Hopefully, they can just be equally repugnant.
A thoughtful post, Marcus, but I'd take issue with the statement that racism is a white problem. Racism is a human problem, and has been as long as there have been humans. We all suck, pretty much.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#273 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » June 18th, 2020, 1:47 pm

That’s a fair point Neal.

I should have stated that the issues with racism in the US can’t be solved by black people alone. We all, or at least a high percentage of us, need to commit to not sucking in regards to prejudice. And on my best days, I am definitely no more than a work in progress.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#274 Post by James Wright » June 18th, 2020, 3:40 pm

Howard Cooper – [quote

As to dead artists, I must admit I have trouble listening to Wagner.
[/quote]

saw this coupla days back, think to comment...

1. Shoah-consciousness is an indispensable element of 21st century life
2. the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany is the worst tear in the fabric of western civilisation

...

i do not think that even the most notable and/or virulent 19th century antisemites –
Richard Wagner, Karl Lueger, the anti-Dreyfussards in France –
imagined boxcars and gas chambers

this is not to excuse their attitudes, but rather to achieve perspective:

in an era of extreme nationalism, these and others like them saw the Jewish people as extra-national,
and therefore a threat, considering the substantial power they had achieved in finance and media
within a couple generations since emerging from the shtetls of the East

btw, even worse than Wagner’s political blatherings are his horrrrible librettos...
– worst of all, his music was adopted as a national treasure by some pretty awful fellows

on the other side of the scale it must be remembered that Hermann Levi, a Jew, conducted the première of »Parsifal«
Wagner‘s stage-consecrating Christian mystery-play...

additionally, that one of the greatest musicians of our time, Daniel Barenboim,
an Argentine Jew, but certainly a citizen of the world by any standard,
was willing to take allkindsa heat for conducting Wagner in Israel...
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#275 Post by Monica Larner » June 18th, 2020, 5:42 pm

Italian Reviewer with Robert Parker Wine Advocate

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#276 Post by markjchambers » June 18th, 2020, 6:37 pm

I think there is a difference between supporting Trump and willfully destroying the environment for financial gain. The latter is a cold business decision. They gain more by destroying the environment than the fine costs them, so they do it. Rhys is not the only winery to do this and I wouldn't buy from any of them.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#277 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 6:59 pm

My question might be this: if a winery owner did something wrong and then atoned, would you forgive him??

In the Rhys case somebody made a mistake and they paid a big fine. I don't know what they have in mind for this area, but the possibility of making money after paying the fine seems remote. Right now there are too many vineyards in California. Kevin seems to have sworn some kind of confidentiality agreement so he is not speaking up, but I don't see him as a raper of the environment.

My feeling about Trump is this: if you don't think racism is a deal breaker, then you need think again.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#278 Post by Sean S y d n e y » June 18th, 2020, 7:40 pm

markjchambers wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 6:37 pm
I think there is a difference between supporting Trump and willfully destroying the environment for financial gain. The latter is a cold business decision. They gain more by destroying the environment than the fine costs them, so they do it. Rhys is not the only winery to do this and I wouldn't buy from any of them.
I'm sorry in advance for the potential politics:

Aside from everything else about the Trump administration, they have systematically targeted environmental regulations for decimation that go far, far beyond anything Rhys did. Whether you think that is "good" or not is up to you, their policies absolutely promote economic exploitation of land and resources over the health of the environment.

FYI: I read the Rhys thread as a result of this post and I am not satisfied that merely paying an exceedingly within-the-means fine is actually making amends. As with my reference to Norman Hardie, I am a firm believer in restorative justice; the thing is, you actually have to take full responsibility without couching it in "we made mistakes"-esque rhetoric that abstracts your culpability, explicitly detail what you did wrong, and describe the steps you will take to ensure it doesn't happen again. For me, that litmus test was not fulfilled by Rhys.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#279 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 7:48 pm

I really don’t know what the Rhys story is but I think I know enough about Donald.

Evidently he does not watch the History Channel on TV. He missed the part about Finland being an independent country, acc to Bolton.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#280 Post by Paul McCourt » June 18th, 2020, 7:49 pm

I would think posing with a hawk was worthy of a boycott simply for it’s sheer comical dbag value.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#281 Post by theocorrel » June 18th, 2020, 7:54 pm

Mel - The Rhys action violating the law and damaging the environment was not a 'mistake': As I recall, it was done by the exact same manager of Rhys' vineyards who had previously violated & been warned on these same legal requirements, which he then (again) violated, resulting in the substantial fine. Go back and read the report, and look at the thread.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#282 Post by Mel Knox » June 18th, 2020, 7:55 pm

If one is boycotting regions where they drained wetlands don’t forget the Medoc!!
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#283 Post by Siun o'Connell » June 18th, 2020, 8:01 pm

That is wonderful to see - thanks for sharing the links Monica and for standing strong.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#284 Post by Wes Barton » June 18th, 2020, 8:01 pm

markjchambers wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 6:37 pm
I think there is a difference between supporting Trump and willfully destroying the environment for financial gain. The latter is a cold business decision. They gain more by destroying the environment than the fine costs them, so they do it. Rhys is not the only winery to do this and I wouldn't buy from any of them.
But, since people keep saying this, it's not true. Rhys did not destroy the environment. As Mel points out, countless other wineries have - which is why there are so many regulations now - and continue to. The Rhys contractor took a reckless shortcut in violation of regulations that risked serious environmental damage. Unseasonable rain could have led to uncontained erosion into the watershed. It didn't happen, though. Not saying anyone has to forgive them, though they did pay a huge fine to fund restoration work elsewhere. But, context. You have bad actor wineries that went in wantonly doing massive damage, that any calculation would put at billions or trillions of times worse. Lower or no fines paid, too.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#285 Post by Merrill Lindquist » June 18th, 2020, 8:08 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 11:17 am
Frank Murray III wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:09 am
Yes, and no recognition that it could be offending. This Board of ours, I love it. I've met so many terrific people here. Yet, look at the Board, look at Page 1. How many names of women do you see posting? Count them. And, then look tomorrow, and next week. Same result you will see.

We need diversity here to help drive discussion, not just dudes talking wine, but both genders would be beneficial.
Frank, I don't think this is something particular to this board. I've been around internet wine forums for many years and they have always been primarily male. Maybe it's the way men talk about wine? But maybe it's just that men are more geeky about it than women..in general, of course? Most wine geeks I know are male, and despite always trying to include women in wine events, it's the guys who are talking about wine most of the time. I think many women just prefer to enjoy it as opposed to obsessing about it. But you could say the same thing about a lot of hobbies.

I found Linda Baehr's comment earlier in this thread interesting. She said it's the first time she's posted in "Wine Talk" in years. Not to put her on the spot, but I think it would be interesting to hear why her and other women don't post as much here. The women wine geeks I've known on and off-line over the years have always impressed me with their notes, insights and tasting ability and it would be great to have them feel welcome here.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#286 Post by AndyK » June 18th, 2020, 8:34 pm

markjchambers wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 6:37 pm
I think there is a difference between supporting Trump and willfully destroying the environment for financial gain. The latter is a cold business decision. They gain more by destroying the environment than the fine costs them, so they do it. Rhys is not the only winery to do this and I wouldn't buy from any of them.
Are you seriously asking what's worse for the environment? Rhys or Trump?
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#287 Post by johngonzales » June 18th, 2020, 9:22 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 9:14 am
Also: this Board has an admirable history of supporting valuable social causes. And those threads have not been littered, or even sprinkled, with dissension. I find it odd, and terribly disappointing, to see it's the topic of fighting against racism that's drawing-out some arguments that could have equally been made before, but weren't. The logical inconsistency is clear. And the fact that it's this topic says a lot.

Would anyone be up in arms if the Pax email had, instead of expressing support for BLM, instead expressed support for Laura's House? (Which I assume the vast majority of posters in this thread know about) How about if the topic had been supporting folks in wine country affected by wildfires? ...
I don’t boycott any wineries. I will give some extra support to wineries etc. that I admire for any number of reasons. That would probably revolve more around customer service and perhaps actual socially beneficial donations. Politics, and especially thought, don’t matter much to me as far as who I’d buy wine from. If I go to a concert, I am much more interested in hearing music than hearing a political speech regardless of whether I align with the position or not.

Anyhow, while I am not offended by anyone supporting them, and don’t find the PaX email particularly offensive, I actually DO think there is a significant difference between BLM and Laura’s House. I find the latter more clearly unobjectionable Andy less controversial than the former. I don’t disagree with the most basic goals of BLM, and perhaps that’s what they are generally seen for. Maybe the basic goals are all that PAX is concerned with. But beyond general, justifiable basis for their position, BLM has some specific demands and policy goals which I disagree with. They’re way more complicated than Laura’s house. It isn’t hard to look at their specific list of demands for Los Angeles, including the budget, to find specifics which some people will find issue with. One of the most notable is the defunding of the police. Agree, with them or not, but it isn’t hard to accept that a 90% defunding of the police, a blanket forgiveness of rental and mortgages during Covid, a moratorium on non-violent arrests, etc are more controversial than donating money to or supporting Laura’s House. Again, I have no big issue with Pax, even though I would rather just get wine emails from wineries. I don’t want social stuff, music suggestions, or recipes, etc. I doubt they can educate me about BLM beyond what I already know or have easy access to. BUT, others might be in a different position.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#288 Post by Tran Bronstein » June 18th, 2020, 10:11 pm

I read this whole thread in one hour and thoroughly enjoyed the thoughtful commentary. I had a rash of thoughts on the subject from the POV of a wine loving visible minority adopted into a large multiracial family headed by two Caucasian parents with equal amounts of brothers and sisters, 5 "naturals" and the rest of us adopted. Please indulge me.

* My only encounter with this issue came when I discovered that Norman Hardie, a winemaker I have met several times whom I liked immensely, was outed as a harasser. I posted a thread covering a TWEC dinner where we had to discuss the issue because we were enjoying one of his wines at the time which had been purchased and committed to the dinner before all the information came out. The end result was we agreed as a group to separate the man from the wine and left everyone to their own individual decision as to whether to continue as a customer. At the time I felt unable to continue my support and have not to this day but I'll be very honest -- because of the current crisis I wouldn't hesitate to visit and support his winery out in Prince Edward County once given the chance if only to support those who work there. Basically one of my moral principles is now overriding the other. Without the pandemic, I likely would have still passed.

* Like Jay and others here, I absolutely would not buy any wine associated with anyone with overt ties to and/or history with racism, Nazism, environmental destruction and abuse of employees. There is a line I personally can't cross.

* The list of outed Trump supporting wineries and businesses is very problematic for me personally. The major reason being that the unsolicited outing is implicitly urging a boycott without any further knowledge as to the intentions behind the support and that just the knowledge of their support alone is enough to make a decision. That doesn't sit right with me personally as I feel that's a very slippery slope to slide down. What happens when someone releases an unsolicited list of wineries and businesses that support Biden and the Democrats? Since the United States is a two party system, the entire American wine industry would conceivably all lose half of their clients and business and income due to boycotts. That's ridiculous and unsustainable to me.

* I admire the stance Pax has taken with their pro BLM stance, again especially as a minority in a large family with many adopted minorities including black and half-black brothers and sisters.... which pains me even more to say that I too would be displeased to have received that email were I a client of theirs. I wouldn't boycott them or take them to task over it, but I would be displeased. I appreciate their stance and their sincerity. It would have nothing at all to do with me being a wine buying client. My own company pledged its support for equality to its employees which honestly they didn't need to do as the diversity in their overall hiring already showed me they do. Actions speak louder than words. What it didn't do was send out a group email to every one of our clients expressing the same. Clients consented to get marketing material related directly to our business, not our business' stance on important social issues.

* Not to say anything of the content. Again, I find it admirable and 100% sincere. I believe they believe. But as a minority person, I personally don't care to be lectured at on racial support and equality by Caucasian people who cannot have possibly experienced a lack of it themselves due to their race as my family and I have. Unless they have also suffered discrimination and hate and prejudice because of their religious beliefs or sexuality that would allow them to empathize from an equal experience which they have not revealed in their content and frankly don't need to as it's none of my business. Without that, however, the content reads to me like several non-diverse Caucasian people telling me what materials I can get into to support diversity and being completely oblivious to the egregious and jarring contrast between what they are telling others to do and what they apparently do themselves. That stood out to me immediately. I respect that they were willing to put themselves out there as a winery by lending their support, but if you're going to take this strong a stance, better take a darn good look in the mirror first before you lecture your entire client base and/or affirm them that you're on the right side of history. Walk the walk before you talk the talk.
Last edited by Tran Bronstein on June 20th, 2020, 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#289 Post by Alan Rath » June 18th, 2020, 10:26 pm

The basic premise of this thread is becoming more and more inane. I’ve received at least a couple dozen emails from *major* corporations, with messages similar to what Pax sent out, and not nearly as thoughtful or entertaining. If someone is offended by these emails, they are going to have an increasingly difficult time navigating the world. The desert island insulated by some social awareness vacuum is becoming smaller and smaller by the day.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#290 Post by Brian Tuite » June 18th, 2020, 11:34 pm

I’m boycotting this thread.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#291 Post by R M Kriete » June 19th, 2020, 8:48 am

Tran,

Great post. Well thought out, rational, and free of flame-throwing. In short, it has no business being a part of this thread [wink.gif]

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#292 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 19th, 2020, 11:50 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 1:47 pm
That’s a fair point Neal.

I should have stated that the issues with racism in the US can’t be solved by black people alone. We all, or at least a high percentage of us, need to commit to not sucking in regards to prejudice. And on my best days, I am definitely no more than a work in progress.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#293 Post by Alan Rath » June 19th, 2020, 12:15 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 19th, 2020, 11:50 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 1:47 pm
That’s a fair point Neal.

I should have stated that the issues with racism in the US can’t be solved by black people alone. We all, or at least a high percentage of us, need to commit to not sucking in regards to prejudice. And on my best days, I am definitely no more than a work in progress.
You and me both. One foot in front of the other . . . .
But I'm still allowed to look down my nose at people who drink Meiomi, right? That would be a bridge too far.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#294 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 19th, 2020, 12:16 pm

Tran Bronstein wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:11 pm
But as a minority person, I personally don't care to be lectured at on racial support and equality by Caucasian people who cannot have possibly experienced a lack of it themselves due to their race as my family and I have. Unless they have also suffered discrimination and hate and prejudice because of their religious beliefs or sexuality that would allow them to empathize from an equal experience which they have not revealed in their content and frankly don't need to as it's none of my business.
Excellent post Tran. No one likes to be lectured by anyone, I suppose, but I bristled a little at this portion of your post though, and particularly the language I bolded.

The simple fact is that without intimate knowledge of an individual's personal and family history, it is very dangerous and I think profoundly unfair to separate out "Caucasian people" as "the other" here and presume that their history doesn't involve prejudice.

The problem is that as Americans (and, if I may, North Americans), "we" have victimized and discriminated against virtually every minority group that has ever come to these shores. Every ethnic group has spent its turn in the barrel (although I hasten to say, African Americans and Native Americans/indigenous peoples have been uniquely victimized, and nothing here should be read as equating their plight with what faced other groups).

At one point or another, "we" as a nation have victimized Jews, Catholics, Chinese, gays and lesbians, Muslims, Italians, Poles, the Irish, the Vietnamese . . . just about any immigrant community one can identify. I was shocked to learn some years ago that the pale blonde Norwegians in Minnesota treat the pale blonde Fins as an inferior "race." Blew my mind.

My grandfather emigrated from the Pale of Settlement at the turn of the 20th century as a penniless Jew. He raised 5 kids in a ghetto to which Jews and African Americans were shunted during the Depression. He faced daily oppression and bias. I was called a kike and beaten up repeatedly as a boy. When I mounted our flag at half staff on the day MLK was assassinated, we got a letter in our letterbox promising to kill "that kike kid" if I put the flag up that way again. I was 12.

I say all this not to earn "cred" but to underscore that I could be "that Caucasian," but I come with a history that is both more nuanced and largely invisible. I've learned that most of us have complications in our past. So I try my best not to assume that I know someone's perspective without first doing my due diligence.

Just my 2 cents and not intended as a personal attack on you or your fine post
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#295 Post by Charlie A » June 19th, 2020, 3:08 pm

A.Gillette wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 5:55 pm
Yes. I actively boycott Weingut Keller in the reinhessen because of the pricing.
Alex
I've boycotted Keller as well on account of his wife, who handles the "hospitality". She's a total witch who went out of her way to be extremely rude and condescending to us for seemingly no other reason than that we don't speak German (or perhaps it was specifically that we are Americans). It's too bad because the wine is great and Klaus Peter seemed like a really nice guy.

I've also boycotted Philipponnat for hospitality reasons. Too many good wines to buy from people who aren't nice to their customers.

I don't boycott for political issues because it just gets tiring. As a Libertarian, I probably disagree on some major political point with about 90% of the country, so it'd be pretty slim pickings if I only bought from people who's political beliefs I align with.
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#296 Post by Mattstolz » June 19th, 2020, 3:30 pm

Tran Bronstein wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:11 pm


* Not to say anything of the content. Again, I find it admirable and 100% sincere. I believe they believe. But as a minority person, I personally don't care to be lectured at on racial support and equality by Caucasian people who cannot have possibly experienced a lack of it themselves due to their race as my family and I have. Unless they have also suffered discrimination and hate and prejudice because of their religious beliefs or sexuality that would allow them to empathize from an equal experience which they have not revealed in their content and frankly don't need to as it's none of my business. Without that, however, the content reads to me like several non-diverse Caucasian people telling me what materials I can get into to support diversity and being completely oblivious to the egregious and jarring contrast between what they are telling others to do and what they apparently do themselves. That stood out to me immediately. I respect that they were willing to put themselves out there as a winery by lending their support, but if you're going to take this strong a stance, better take a darn good look in the mirror first before you lecture your entire client base and/or affirm them that you're on the right side of history. Walk the walk before you talk the talk.
this is a really fair point. I forget exactly how it was presented in Pax's email, but something more along the lines of "here is what we're reading and listening to in order to make sure we are fighting alongside POC and educating ourselves on their struggles" vs "get on our level, email list" is a huge difference.

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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#297 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » June 19th, 2020, 3:41 pm

I'm learning a lot about certain members here. Carry-on, folks. [popcorn.gif] [popcorn.gif] [popcorn.gif]
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#298 Post by James Wright » June 19th, 2020, 3:45 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 19th, 2020, 12:16 pm
Tran Bronstein wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:11 pm
But as a minority person, I personally don't care to be lectured at on racial support and equality by Caucasian people who cannot have possibly experienced a lack of it themselves due to their race as my family and I have. Unless they have also suffered discrimination and hate and prejudice because of their religious beliefs or sexuality that would allow them to empathize from an equal experience which they have not revealed in their content and frankly don't need to as it's none of my business.
Excellent post Tran. No one likes to be lectured by anyone, I suppose, but I bristled a little at this portion of your post though, and particularly the language I bolded.

The simple fact is that without intimate knowledge of an individual's personal and family history, it is very dangerous and I think profoundly unfair to separate out "Caucasian people" as "the other" here and presume that their history doesn't involve prejudice.

The problem is that as Americans (and, if I may, North Americans), "we" have victimized and discriminated against virtually every minority group that has ever come to these shores. Every ethnic group has spent its turn in the barrel (although I hasten to say, African Americans and Native Americans/indigenous peoples have been uniquely victimized, and nothing here should be read as equating their plight with what faced other groups).

At one point or another, "we" as a nation have victimized Jews, Catholics, Chinese, gays and lesbians, Muslims, Italians, Poles, the Irish, the Vietnamese . . . just about any immigrant community one can identify. I was shocked to learn some years ago that the pale blonde Norwegians in Minnesota treat the pale blonde Fins as an inferior "race." Blew my mind.

My grandfather emigrated from the Pale of Settlement at the turn of the 20th century as a penniless Jew. He raised 5 kids in a ghetto to which Jews and African Americans were shunted during the Depression. He faced daily oppression and bias. I was called a kike and beaten up repeatedly as a boy. When I mounted our flag at half staff on the day MLK was assassinated, we got a letter in our letterbox promising to kill "that kike kid" if I put the flag up that way again. I was 12.

I say all this not to earn "cred" but to underscore that I could be "that Caucasian," but I come with a history that is both more nuanced and largely invisible. I've learned that most of us have complications in our past. So I try my best not to assume that I know someone's perspective without first doing my due diligence.

Just my 2 cents and not intended as a personal attack on you or your fine post
am on your side, of course,
but has it filtered toward your intake that the unfortunate word ‘kike’
was a designation with which the settled-in Sephardic Jews in NYC
were wont to characterise the newcomer Ashkenazis ?

that is my understanding – but goyish i be...
might you update my info?

of course sorry that you were obliged to endure that...
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#299 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 19th, 2020, 4:16 pm

James Wright wrote:
June 19th, 2020, 3:45 pm
Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 19th, 2020, 12:16 pm
Tran Bronstein wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:11 pm
But as a minority person, I personally don't care to be lectured at on racial support and equality by Caucasian people who cannot have possibly experienced a lack of it themselves due to their race as my family and I have. Unless they have also suffered discrimination and hate and prejudice because of their religious beliefs or sexuality that would allow them to empathize from an equal experience which they have not revealed in their content and frankly don't need to as it's none of my business.
Excellent post Tran. No one likes to be lectured by anyone, I suppose, but I bristled a little at this portion of your post though, and particularly the language I bolded.

The simple fact is that without intimate knowledge of an individual's personal and family history, it is very dangerous and I think profoundly unfair to separate out "Caucasian people" as "the other" here and presume that their history doesn't involve prejudice.

The problem is that as Americans (and, if I may, North Americans), "we" have victimized and discriminated against virtually every minority group that has ever come to these shores. Every ethnic group has spent its turn in the barrel (although I hasten to say, African Americans and Native Americans/indigenous peoples have been uniquely victimized, and nothing here should be read as equating their plight with what faced other groups).

At one point or another, "we" as a nation have victimized Jews, Catholics, Chinese, gays and lesbians, Muslims, Italians, Poles, the Irish, the Vietnamese . . . just about any immigrant community one can identify. I was shocked to learn some years ago that the pale blonde Norwegians in Minnesota treat the pale blonde Fins as an inferior "race." Blew my mind.

My grandfather emigrated from the Pale of Settlement at the turn of the 20th century as a penniless Jew. He raised 5 kids in a ghetto to which Jews and African Americans were shunted during the Depression. He faced daily oppression and bias. I was called a kike and beaten up repeatedly as a boy. When I mounted our flag at half staff on the day MLK was assassinated, we got a letter in our letterbox promising to kill "that kike kid" if I put the flag up that way again. I was 12.

I say all this not to earn "cred" but to underscore that I could be "that Caucasian," but I come with a history that is both more nuanced and largely invisible. I've learned that most of us have complications in our past. So I try my best not to assume that I know someone's perspective without first doing my due diligence.

Just my 2 cents and not intended as a personal attack on you or your fine post
am on your side, of course,
but has it filtered toward your intake that the unfortunate word ‘kike’
was a designation with which the settled-in Sephardic Jews in NYC
were wont to characterise the newcomer Ashkenazis ?

that is my understanding – but goyish i be...
might you update my info?

of course sorry that you were obliged to endure that...
I'm not sure where that comes from. From Leo Rosten
The word kike was born on Ellis Island when there were Jewish migrants who were also illiterate (or could not use Latin alphabet letters). When asked to sign the entry-forms with the customary "X", the Jewish immigrants would refuse, because they associated an X with the cross of Christianity. Instead, they drew a circle as the signature on the entry-forms. The Yiddish word for "circle" is kikel (pronounced KY - kel), and for "little circle", kikeleh. Before long the immigration inspectors were calling anyone who signed with an 'O' instead of an 'X' a kikel or kikeleh or kikee or, finally and succinctly, kike."
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Re: Ever boycott a winery?

#300 Post by Brian Glas » June 19th, 2020, 4:45 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:51 am
I speak my mind on this forum all of the time. I speak what I think is correct, and I also try to listen to those posters who feel differently than I do. But I definitely try not to tell the other posters who they are.
I appreciate your thoughtful posts. Makes it worthwhile to wade through all of the useless swill here.
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 10:51 am
we have to face the fact that few are truly 100% good or 100% bad.
Agreed. Dare I say none? Had a good conversation yesterday with a tasting room manager about a $50k donation by an Oregon Winery owner to Trump's 2020 election campaign. I think both of us were on the same page with that one but also mentioned the same owner donated $6m to Linfield College wine studies program and $500k to a scholarship to help provide funding to diversify the program. The people in our tasting party had different opinions if the $6.5m outweighed the $50k.

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