The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

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Jeff P
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#851 Post by Jeff P » June 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm

Mostly 750mls and 375mls with some 1.5l and 3ls sprinkled in

Laroque
Tour St. C
Leo P
Mouton
Palmer
La Cons.
PLL
Figeac
Canon
Calon Segur
Clinet
Brainaire Ducru
Montrose
Ducru B
SHL
Lynch B

only 375s
LMHB
DDC
Cantenac Brown
GPL
Canon LG
Pavie Macquin
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#852 Post by Andrew M » June 24th, 2020, 7:06 pm

Decided to do 2x 375, 1x 750, and 1x 1.5L of these:

Mouton
LMHB
Montrose
Pichon Lalande
Lynch Bages
Calon Segur
Pontet-Canet
Rauzan Segla
Domaine de Chevalier
Giscours

Threw in some extra 375s of Giscours and Branaire which should drink well on the earlier side.
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Craig G
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#853 Post by Craig G » June 24th, 2020, 7:53 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 24th, 2020, 5:41 pm

LMHB
Mouton
Palmer
Pichon Lalande
VCC
Langoa Barton (halves)
Figeac
Ducru
La Conseillante
Pontet Canet
I’m a small timer now but I bought a subset of these:

Palmer
Pichon Lalande
VCC
Figeac
La Conseillante

It’s the most Bordeaux I’ve bought since 2000. Mostly I’ve just been backfilling PLL and La Conseillante in recent years.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#854 Post by D Zurcher » June 24th, 2020, 8:00 pm

Andrew K. wrote:
June 24th, 2020, 5:15 pm
My first EP. Relatively small, all 750s.

Canon x30
Cheval x6
Mouton x6
Carruades x3
Petit Mouton x3
“Relatively small”. LOL. Good haul!

Surprised Cheval is still available at TW actually.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#855 Post by D Zurcher » June 24th, 2020, 8:04 pm

It’s the most I’ve bought in several years also. I tried to justify not clicking the “purchase” button by looking at backfill prices of wines like Montrose, Ducru, Pichon Lalande, or even Gloria but the prices were too good for the 2019’s. Just hoping the currency or tariff situation doesn’t change that.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#856 Post by Keith Levenberg » June 24th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Well, you know you've bought too much when CellarTracker interrupts you to give you a CAPTCHA check. But this time I was just entering a mixed case of 375s!

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#857 Post by CraigT » June 24th, 2020, 8:32 pm

[cheers.gif] Just gonna add my two cents. It seems people are going crazy over this En Premier. The prices are good but this vintage style is really geared toward the British palate. I think a lot Americans will not find this to there taste. As Antonio Galloni said this a “superb vintage” but falls short of being epic. It lacks the true potentially legendary wines that we saw in 2018. This was repeated by most other critics. On that note I did buy:

Canon
Les Carmes Haut-Brion
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#858 Post by Brian Pinci » June 24th, 2020, 8:36 pm

I swear I wasn’t going to buy much but lost control
Beausejour Becot
Beausejour Duffau
Canon
Conseillante
Lynch Bages
Montrose
VCC
Pichon L
Pichon B
L’Eglise Clinet
Pavie
Clinet
Margaux
Ducru Beaucaillou
Le Gay
Ausone
Giscours
Tour St Christophe
LMHB
Haut Brion
Pontet Canet
Mouton
Lafite
Cheval Blanc
Brian Pinci

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#859 Post by JonathanG » June 24th, 2020, 9:05 pm

I am embarrassed to post my list, but let's just say it's much, much longer than Brian's. >50
My original plan was less than 50 bottles, that then went to 80, and that, well, didn't really get me past day 4...
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#860 Post by Glen Gold » June 24th, 2020, 10:11 pm

Twenty-four .375s: La Croix Beaucaillou, Branaire Ducru, Pontet Canet, LMHB. I found that my 2014 .375s were a really really good idea, so...
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#861 Post by M Matthews » June 24th, 2020, 11:27 pm

Who has 375 of la Croix? Also looking for 375 of Gloria, Wally's had some but I was too slow.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#862 Post by Glen Gold » June 25th, 2020, 12:05 am

M Matthews wrote:
June 24th, 2020, 11:27 pm
Who has 375 of la Croix? Also looking for 375 of Gloria, Wally's had some but I was too slow.
Wally's. $22.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#863 Post by Andrew M » June 25th, 2020, 5:36 am

I'm out of the loop on Canon, but FYI Wally's has individual 375's for $50, seems like a good deal for many of you chasing. I bought one. Free shipping if you buy 2+
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#864 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 25th, 2020, 10:14 am

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
June 24th, 2020, 1:46 pm
I just ordered the PLL and then broke down and picked up the Ducru, which mysteriously reappeared on TW's site. Okay, I'm officially done with 2019 futures, full stop.
Just went back to grab Ch. Palmer. Didn't even last 24 hours. [sigh]

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#865 Post by YLee » June 25th, 2020, 10:26 am

I'm going to guess 2020 is going to be a superior vintage and due to covid still rampant prices wont be high as '15 and '16.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#866 Post by DanielP » June 25th, 2020, 10:28 am

YLee wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:26 am
I'm going to guess 2020 is going to be a superior vintage and due to covid still rampant prices wont be high as '15 and '16.
Based on chateaus holding back lots of stock this release, it seems they're ready to raise prices Combined with the success of this EP campaign, I'm going to say that 2020 will be more expensive all else being equal. With so many "great" vintages, I can say that only price will draw me back in, so I look forward to jumping back in for the great pricing of the 2024 campaign
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#867 Post by R M Kriete » June 25th, 2020, 10:35 am

DanielP wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:28 am
Based on chateaus holding back lots of stock this release, it seems they're ready to raise prices Combined with the success of this EP campaign, I'm going to say that 2020 will be more expensive all else being equal. With so many "great" vintages, I can say that only price will draw me back in, so I look forward to jumping back in for the great pricing of the 2024 campaign
But 2023 is the Vintage of the Century! You can't miss out on that.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#868 Post by Curtis Chen » June 25th, 2020, 11:09 am

R M Kriete wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:35 am
DanielP wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:28 am
Based on chateaus holding back lots of stock this release, it seems they're ready to raise prices Combined with the success of this EP campaign, I'm going to say that 2020 will be more expensive all else being equal. With so many "great" vintages, I can say that only price will draw me back in, so I look forward to jumping back in for the great pricing of the 2024 campaign
But 2023 is the Vintage of the Century! You can't miss out on that.
Bro, how you gonna just ignore 2020-2022 like that? [wink.gif]

But yeah, I agree with Daniel on withholding inventory with subsequently higher pricing.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#869 Post by RJABBOTTJR » June 25th, 2020, 11:50 am

TW has most of the remaining up including Canon, Rauzan-Segla, Les Carmes
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#870 Post by AD Northup » June 25th, 2020, 12:11 pm

C Chen wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 11:09 am
R M Kriete wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:35 am
DanielP wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:28 am
Based on chateaus holding back lots of stock this release, it seems they're ready to raise prices Combined with the success of this EP campaign, I'm going to say that 2020 will be more expensive all else being equal. With so many "great" vintages, I can say that only price will draw me back in, so I look forward to jumping back in for the great pricing of the 2024 campaign
But 2023 is the Vintage of the Century! You can't miss out on that.
Bro, how you gonna just ignore 2020-2022 like that? [wink.gif]

But yeah, I agree with Daniel on withholding inventory with subsequently higher pricing.
If 2020 is above average I’ll be a large buyer as my son was born in April, but mostly of large format, so it would be rather nice if EP prices would hold pileon
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#871 Post by Jeff_M. » June 25th, 2020, 12:41 pm

AD Northup wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 12:11 pm
C Chen wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 11:09 am
R M Kriete wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 10:35 am


But 2023 is the Vintage of the Century! You can't miss out on that.
Bro, how you gonna just ignore 2020-2022 like that? [wink.gif]

But yeah, I agree with Daniel on withholding inventory with subsequently higher pricing.
If 2020 is above average I’ll be a large buyer as my son was born in April, but mostly of large format, so it would be rather nice if EP prices would hold pileon
Same here for 2020. Have a March baby so I will be loading up on 2020 magnums for the kiddo. champagne.gif
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#872 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 25th, 2020, 2:15 pm

2019 Les Carmes Haut-Brion at $115 a bottle on TW? No thank you.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#873 Post by David Glasser » June 25th, 2020, 2:29 pm

I’ve avoided this thread, and buying 2019 futures, like COVID itself. I’m too old, have too much wine, pricing eliminated the financial incentives years ago, tariff uncertainty, yadda yadda. I skipped 2017 and 2018 entirely, no sweat, thought I’d beaten the addiction.

But wouldn’t ya know... prices for many of my favorites at or below 2014 futures prices teamed up with an urge to spit in the face of mortality. I opened the thread and I caved. Badly, for me.

I enjoyed Jeff's and Keith's debate over purchasing decision inputs. Those starting out need the EP reports. Once you know what you like, I generally agree with Keith's take. I know what I like and unless there’s been a change at the helm or a major style/winemaking philosophy change, past performance is a reliable indicator. That means you still have to read the critics to know when those changes occur. Or follow Alfert if modernism is your bugaboo, as he can smell Rolland from 4,500 miles away. EP reports will also tell you if there was a significant weather effect and identify those who badly dropped the ball or hit a home run, so I don’t ignore them.

When the dust settled, I was on the hook for:

Carmes Haut Brion
Clinet
Conseillante
Haut Bailly
Haut Brion
Lynch Bages
Montrose
Palmer
Pichon Baron
Pichon Comtesse
Pontet Canet
Vieux Château Certan
Talbot

And as I posted elsewhere, a cheapie that makes a great gift and is a hit when the ripe fruit junkies who like the style are visiting:
Tour St. Christophe

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#874 Post by Mattstolz » June 25th, 2020, 2:36 pm

in case anyone missed, TW has Canon and Rauzan Segla out now.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#875 Post by R. Frankel » June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm

I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#876 Post by DanielP » June 25th, 2020, 4:33 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
Big fan of d'Issan and Brane-Cantenac.

2016 Brane was one of my favorite wines from the UGC tasting, irrespective of price. Very structured but also refined.

2014 and 2015 d'Issan were very fine. 2015 being a bit bigger, but not some sort of overextracted/overwrought monster. I would say both are more classic estates, although I'm not sure what that exactly means anymore since every chateau seems to be doing the same thing

I did buy 2014/2019 GPL, but have not tasted those. 2016 was very good, though perhaps did not necessarily stand out.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#877 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 25th, 2020, 4:41 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
Rich I cannot speak to these wines in 2019, but generally speaking, this is the sweet spot for Bordeaux when the stars align for consumers - i.e., when you get a very good year in a terrible economy and maybe too much product in the market. I’m thinking 2019, 2014, 2008, 2001. Load up on these values as they are generally excellent wines, don’t break the bank, and you won’t feel guilty popping one on a Wednesday when you would lament popping the MacDaddies.

Load up there! I’d rather have more of these than more of the bombers, all things considered.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#878 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 25th, 2020, 4:43 pm

Does anyone know why Batailley and Ferriere seem to be offered only at one store each in the US? I'm not a full case purchaser, but it would be nice to pick up a few bottles of each of these two, but I'd prefer to buy from one of my usual stores to combine for shipping or allow for local pickup, but none of them carry either. W-S shows only Millesima as offering the former and only Grand Vin as offering the latter, and both only offer 750s by the case.
Last edited by D@ve D y r 0 f f on June 25th, 2020, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#879 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 25th, 2020, 4:46 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:41 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
Rich I cannot speak to these wines in 2019, but generally speaking, this is the sweet spot for Bordeaux when the stars align for consumers - i.e., when you get a very good year in a terrible economy and maybe too much product in the market. I’m thinking 2019, 2014, 2008, 2001. Load up on these values as they are generally excellent wines, don’t break the bank, and you won’t feel guilty popping one on a Wednesday when you would lament popping the MacDaddies.

Load up there! I’d rather have more of these than more of the bombers, all things considered.
This is exactly my approach/thinking, though I focus more on $30-$50. Branaire, Malartic, Gloria, Sociando, La Lagune, Langoa, Lafon, GPD, Latour Martillac, Lynch Moussas, Sociando, and (I hope) Batailley and Ferriere.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#880 Post by Ed Steinway » June 25th, 2020, 4:46 pm

R Frankel wrote:I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
We have gone to the UGC tasting in San Francisco for the last several years. Of those you mentioned, my first 3 choices would be DDC, GPL and Brane-Cantenac. I would also add Beau Sejour Becot from the Right Bank, although many of the critics were not able to taste any of the 2019. I did not think I was going to buy 2019 futures but the chance to get DDC and Brane-Cantenac at the current price was too tempting. I also bought LP for $70.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#881 Post by Lee Barnard » June 25th, 2020, 6:29 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
I loaded up on GPL, Malartic, Branaire, Brane Cantenac and Beau-Sejour in that range. I also grabbed some DdC even though I haven’t tried the new style yet - price was right and I don’t mind having some glossy wine around from time to time.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#882 Post by Vince T » June 25th, 2020, 7:27 pm

DanielP wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:33 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
Big fan of d'Issan and Brane-Cantenac.

2016 Brane was one of my favorite wines from the UGC tasting, irrespective of price. Very structured but also refined.

2014 and 2015 d'Issan were very fine. 2015 being a bit bigger, but not some sort of overextracted/overwrought monster. I would say both are more classic estates, although I'm not sure what that exactly means anymore since every chateau seems to be doing the same thing

I did buy 2014/2019 GPL, but have not tasted those. 2016 was very good, though perhaps did not necessarily stand out.
I bought many of those in 15 and 16, but haven't tasted them all yet. I'd say 16s are pretty structured and need time (Gloria, Branaire, DDC) although at the lower end some are drinking well (Capbern, Meyney, Dame de Montrose). 15s are fleshier and delicious but still not overextracted. I loved the Margaux wines I tasted - thinking Malescot, Giscours, and Rauzan Segla (which was $70 EP). DDC also good in 2015, and Cantemerle excellent value under $40.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#883 Post by Craig G » June 25th, 2020, 8:31 pm

R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
GPL looks like a great deal to me. 2014 GPL is still available around the same price too. You should buy both :-)

In the lower price range I think it’s better to let the wines land and taste them. In 2016 I didn’t buy too much but I did a dinner where we tried six different $30-50 wines that were on the market. My favorite was Chasse-Spleen, which wasn’t a total surprise but it wouldn’t have been the wine I would have chosen EP. I probably would have bought Cantemerle EP but it didn’t show as well in our tasting so I ended up buying the Chasse-Spleen.
Last edited by Craig G on June 26th, 2020, 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#884 Post by R. Frankel » June 25th, 2020, 10:21 pm

Great feedback guys, thanks. Still don’t know what I’m going to buy. If anything.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#885 Post by KeithM » June 25th, 2020, 10:53 pm

Ducru
Pichon Comtesse
Montrose
Canon
Calon Segur
Rauzan Segla
Pontet Canet
Cos
Carmes HB
Lynch Bages
Leoville Poyferre
Clinet
Leoville Barton
Beau Sejour Becot
Smith Haut Lafitte
Pavie Macquin
Larcis Ducasse
Feytit Clinet
Saint Pierre
Grand Puy Lacoste
Domaine de Chavilier Rouge
Brane Cantenac
La Gaffeliere
Malescot
Phelan Segur
Gellefont Belcier
Gazin
Giscours
Sansonnet
Laroque
Tour St Christophe
K. McKlendin

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#886 Post by PCLIN » June 25th, 2020, 11:27 pm

DanielP wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:33 pm


Big fan of d'Issan and Brane-Cantenac.
I am mega fan of d’Issan, my go-to wine in Margaux, For ‘19 EP, I bought both d’Issan and Brane-Cantenac too.
Chiu Lin

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#887 Post by Br1an Th0rne » June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm

Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#888 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm

Craig G wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 8:31 pm
R. Frankel wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 4:24 pm
I’m wondering what people think about the wines in the $40-$70ish price range. Seems like a relative bargain but I have tasted only a few of these from recent vintages (and certainly not 17/18/19 which are not out yet). I’d love to hear comments from people who have tasted the finished wines from 2014/15/16. I’m thinking Chateaux like Malescot, Brane-Cantenac, DDC, GPL, Larcis-Ducasse, Haut Batailley, Giscours, Lagrange (St. Julien), Malartic, Brainaire-Ducru, Phelan-Segur.
GPL looks like a great deal to me. 2014 GPL is still available around the same price too. You should buy both :-)

In the lower price range I think it’s better to let the wines land and taste them. In 2016 I didn’t buy too much but I did a dinner where we tried six different $30-50 wines that we’re on the market. My favorite was Chasse-Spleen, which wasn’t a total surprise but it wouldn’t have been the wine I would have chosen EP. I probably would have bought Cantemerle EP but it didn’t show as well in our tasting so I ended up buying the Chasse-Spleen.
The only addition I would make here is to consider if you want all 750s. If so, as Craig says, you should be able to get most if not all of these wines close to current prices after they land, and after you've had a chance to taste them. If you want to go big or small (mags, halves, nebakanezers) you need to buy now because finding them after the futures campaign is much harder, and you usually have to pay a bigger premium after they land
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#889 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 26th, 2020, 1:25 pm

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
What is "resale value" as used in the chart (article is behind paywall).
I don't have to speak; she defends me

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#890 Post by Tom Reddick » June 26th, 2020, 1:33 pm

Ouch- Le Pin is out. One bottle owcs this year. I got the only two I was offered and awaiting word and a number on a third. If you are after this one- start making calls.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#891 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 26th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
I've only bought futures in 2016, 2018, and now 2019. None of my 2016 futures are selling for below what I paid for them. Most are way above. I think it's very vintage and producer dependent.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#892 Post by Br1an Th0rne » June 26th, 2020, 1:54 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:25 pm
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
What is "resale value" as used in the chart (article is behind paywall).
If you sold the wine upon receipt, i.e. about 2 years after purchasing as a future

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#893 Post by Br1an Th0rne » June 26th, 2020, 1:58 pm

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:53 pm
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
I've only bought futures in 2016, 2018, and now 2019. None of my 2016 futures are selling for below what I paid for them. Most are way above. I think it's very vintage and producer dependent.
It’s based on the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index...so many, many wines. Point being, those who purchased futures in 2000 - 2008 likely made wise investments; hard to lose money in those years. No so much the case from 2010 - 2017.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#894 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 26th, 2020, 2:17 pm

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:25 pm
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
What is "resale value" as used in the chart (article is behind paywall).
If you sold the wine upon receipt, i.e. about 2 years after purchasing as a future
I'm sorry, I was (and am) confused. If I bought futures when offered and "re-sold" them when they arrived I would expect to take a hit, given the friction of engaging some 3d party to sell them for me. Maybe not the case in the UK? Can anyone just sell wine without a retailer's/auction license?

The point however seems to be irrefutable that (outside of odd sizes) only a handful of wines are going to materially increase in price between being offered en primeur and arrival on these shores
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#895 Post by David Glasser » June 26th, 2020, 4:37 pm

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:58 pm
Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:53 pm
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:05 pm
Interesting article in The Economist. This chart pretty well sums up why I hadn’t purchased futures since the ‘09 vintage. Basically, if you bought futures of the reds in the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index 2010 - 2017, they were worth less than what you paid for them upon delivery, every year except 2015. This doesn’t even take into account the time value of money. I hope 2019 bucks the trend.

https://www.economist.com/business/2020 ... eaux-wines
I've only bought futures in 2016, 2018, and now 2019. None of my 2016 futures are selling for below what I paid for them. Most are way above. I think it's very vintage and producer dependent.
It’s based on the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index...so many, many wines. Point being, those who purchased futures in 2000 - 2008 likely made wise investments; hard to lose money in those years. No so much the case from 2010 - 2017.
Am I reading the chart correctly? It looks like the wines would have been worth less on release than they cost as futures for only 1 of the 8 vintages (2010) between 2010-2017. You would have about broken even in 2 of those years (2016, 2017), and you would have been ahead in 5 of those years (2011-2015).

If that’s correct, it surprises me. I would have thought that there were more years where the values decreased between en primeur and release.

Edit - never mind, I see now that when the blue line dips below €100, you’re losing money. And that correlates with higher en primeur prices (the red line).

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#896 Post by Br1an Th0rne » June 26th, 2020, 4:59 pm

David Glasser wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 4:37 pm
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:58 pm
Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 1:53 pm


I've only bought futures in 2016, 2018, and now 2019. None of my 2016 futures are selling for below what I paid for them. Most are way above. I think it's very vintage and producer dependent.
It’s based on the Liv-ex Bordeaux 500 index...so many, many wines. Point being, those who purchased futures in 2000 - 2008 likely made wise investments; hard to lose money in those years. No so much the case from 2010 - 2017.
Am I reading the chart correctly? It looks like the wines would have been worth less on release than they cost as futures for only 1 of the 8 vintages (2010) between 2010-2017. You would have about broken even in 2 of those years (2016, 2017), and you would have been ahead in 5 of those years (2011-2015).

If that’s correct, it surprises me. I would have thought that there were more years where the values decreased between en primeur and release.

Edit - never mind, I see now that when the blue line dips below €100, you’re losing money. And that correlates with higher en primeur prices (the red line).
It’s a funky chart...you’re right, two different y axes, the blue line is with the right / blue y axis. If the blue line is below 100, you lost money buying futures that year, compared to what “the wines” were available for on release. Caveat being “the wines” are an index of the liv-ex Bordeaux 500...

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#897 Post by Mattstolz » June 26th, 2020, 6:06 pm

so I think im done with my small-fish futures purchases:

Calon Segur
Montrose 375s
Canon
Clinet 375s
chapelle LMHB
Last edited by Mattstolz on June 27th, 2020, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#898 Post by barrytfreeman » June 27th, 2020, 7:31 am

LMHB
VCC
Palmer
Pichon Lalande
Clinet
Leoville Poyferre

May add L’eglise Clinet

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#899 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 27th, 2020, 4:02 pm

I cannot remember an en primeur campaign with this much excitement and buying, at least in this century. I looked at the number of wines sold out n the Flickinger site, and realize that for once, the Bordelais
have got it right.

Chateau
Appellation
3x 750ml
6x 750ml
12x 750ml
WA
VM
JS
JD
Pichon-Longueville Lalande
Pauillac
SOLD
OUT
97-99
98-100
98-99
Smith Haut Lafitte
Pessac Leognan
SOLD
OUT
96-98
96-98
96-97
95-97
Smith Haut Lafitte
Pessac Leognan Blanc
SOLD
OUT
96-98
94-96
96-97
94-96
Lascombes
Margaux
$189
$373
$740
93-95
92-94
94-95
92-94
Rauzan-Segla
Margaux
$222
$438
$871
Les Carmes Haut Brion
Pessac Leognan
$522
Troplong Mondot
St. Emilion
$245
$485
$964
96-98
96-98
Beausejour-Duffau
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
96-98
95-97
95-96
95-97
Beau-Sejour Becot
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
Canon
St. Emilion
$559
Bellevue
St. Emilion
$235
93-95
93-95
Vieux Chateau Certan
Pomerol
$1,422
97-100
96-98
98-99
Previous releases:
Sociando Mallet
Haut Medoc
$91
$177
$348
92-94
93-94
Calon-Segur
St. Estephe
$255
$503
96-98
95-96
Cos d'Estournel
St. Estephe
SOLD
OUT
97-99
98-99
97-99
Montrose
St. Estephe
$381
$762
$1,523
Phelan Segur
St. Estephe
$115
92-94
93-95
96-97
93-95
Clerc Milon
Pauillac
$207
92-94
91-93
94-95
93-95
d'Armailhac
Pauillac
$242
$478
91-93
92-94
92-93
92-94
Duhart Milon
Pauillac
$209
92-94
93-95
95-96
92-94
Grand Puy Lacoste
Pauillac
$277
95-97
94-95
Haut Batailley
Pauillac
$149
93-95
95-96
Lafite Rothschild
Pauillac
SOLD
OUT
97-99
96-98
99-100
98-100
Le Petit Mouton
Pauillac
$594
$1,090
92-94
93-95
96-97
93-95
Lynch Bages
Pauillac
$269
$531
$1,058
96-98
96-97
Mouton-Rothschild
Pauillac
SOLD
OUT
98-100
96-98
99-100
97-99
Pedesclaux
Pauillac
$209
$399
93-95
91-93
94-95
93-95
Pichon-Longueville Baron
Pauillac
$380
$755
97-100
96-98
97-98
Pontet Canet
Pauillac
SOLD
OUT
98-100
95-97
98-99
Beychevelle
St. Julien
$219
93-95
93-94
Branaire-Ducru
St. Julien
$237
$469
94-96
95-96
Ducru-Beaucaillou
St. Julien
SOLD
OUT
97-100
99-100
97-100
Gloria
St. Julien
$205
$404
91-93
93-95
94-95
Leoville Barton
St. Julien
$213
$419
$833
94-96
95-96
Leoville Las Cases
St. Julien
$548
$1,091
$2,176
97-99
96-98
98-99
Leoville Poyferre
St. Julien
$400
96-98
96-97
Petit Lion du Marquis de Las Cases
St. Julien
$572
92-94
91-93
995-9
St. Pierre
St. Julien
SOLD
OUT
94-96+
94-96
93-94
Alter Ego de Palmer
Margaux
$183
$362
$719
Brane-Cantenac
Margaux
$166
94-96
93-94
93-95
d'Issan
Margaux
$147
$289
$572
93-95
96-97
93-95
du Tertre
Margaux
$110
92-94
95-96
93-95
Giscours
Margaux
SOLD
OUT
94-96
96-97
Labegorce
Margaux
$167
$330
89-91
93-95
91-92
Pavillon Rouge de Margaux
Margaux
$975
92-94+
92-94
Malescot St. Exupery
Margaux
SOLD
OUT
Margaux
Margaux
SOLD
OUT
97-100
98-100
99-100
97-100
Palmer
Margaux
SOLD
OUT
Dom. de Chevalier
Pessac Leognan
$165
$325
$646
94-96+
95-97
96-97
Haut Bailly
Pessac Leognan
$269
$531
$1,057
97-99
96-98
98-99
96-98
Haut-Brion
Pessac Leognan
SOLD
OUT
97-99+
99-100
La Mission Haut-Brion
Pessac Leognan
SOLD
OUT
98-100
99-100
Pape-Clement
Pessac Leognan
$236
$466
$927
96-98+
96-98
96-97
96-99
Pape-Clement
Pessac Leognan Blanc
$708
$1,412
95-97
91-93
96-97
94-96
Haut-Brion
Pessac Leognan Blanc
SOLD
OUT
La Mission Haut-Brion
Pessac Leognan Blanc
SOLD
OUT
98-99
Clinet
Pomerol
SOLD
OUT
97-99
97-98
Clos l'Eglise
Pomerol
$213
$419
93-95
94-96
96-97
Conseillante
Pomerol
$478
$951
96-98
97-99
97-98
Eglise Clinet
Pomerol
SOLD
OUT
98-100
97-99
99-100
Feytit-Clinet
Pomerol
$168
$331
93-95+
94-96
95-96
95-97
Gazin
Pomerol
$209
95-97
95-96
L'Evangile
Pomerol
SOLD
OUT
96-98
97-98
96-98
Angelus
St. Emilion
$905
97-99
96-98
98-99
Bellefont Belcier
St. Emilion
$119
$232
$458
90-92
93-95
93-94
95-97
Cheval-Blanc
St. Emilion
$1,449
$2,893
Clos Fourtet
St. Emilion
$272
$543
95-97
95-96
Figeac
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
98-100
97-99
98-99
La Mondotte
St. Emilion
$432
$858
97-99
94-96
97-98
Larcis-Ducasse
St. Emilion
$185
$363
95-97
95-97
98-99
95-97
Le Petit Cheval
St. Emilion
$479
$968
Pavie
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
97-100
98-99
97-99
Pavie Decesse
St. Emilion
$335
$665
95-97
96-98
96-97
95-97
Pavie Macquin
St. Emilion
$194
$382
$759
95-97
95-97
98-99
95-97
Tour Saint-Christophe
St. Emilion
$163
$319
92-94+
94-96
96-97
95-97
Trotte Vieille
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
94-96
96-97
Valandraud
St. Emilion
SOLD
OUT
95-97
96-98
97-98
96-98
Saintayme
St. Emilion
$96
$187
89-91
92-94
93-94
Montlandrie
Cotes de Castillon
$117
$229
93-95
92-94
92-93
Chenade
Lalande de Pomerol
$111
$218
88-90
91-93
92-93
Les Cruzelles
Lalande de Pomerol
$139
$274
90-92
92-94
92-93
ITB

Bengera A
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#900 Post by Bengera A » June 28th, 2020, 9:13 am

Mark, is there a way that you can repost your last message with formatting/table that makes it easier to read? It shows up as a long list of text.

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