The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

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Vince T
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#701 Post by Vince T » June 23rd, 2020, 6:48 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:09 am
Canon is out at £438 per 6. I'm stocking up.
Did you just buy up every case from Millesima? Already sold out.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#702 Post by Jeff P » June 23rd, 2020, 6:49 am

DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:41 am
Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:39 am
DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:21 am


If total wine has already bought the wine in euros up front at the current exchange rate, then why should currency fluctuations at a later time point matter? There should be no "risk" when you reimburse
Let's take the case where they need to pay €100 to the negoce to break-even. Today, €100 = $113. If the dollar tanks and €100 = $150 in 2 years (like in 2008), they still need to receive €50 to break-even from a book value. The $56.50 you'll pay in 2022 is now only worth €42.56, so they have to write-down a €7.44 loss due to currency fluctuation.
Oh, you actually think that the negociant is allowing total wine to pay only 50% up front?
I think TW has to pay 100% like everyone else but the 50% is a business decision that they're trying to hedge with the currency fluctuation language. 1) 50% is a differentiator in the market, 2) TW is likely buying full cases on spec and given their retail size, what they don't sell EP they can retail for more later, 3) by forcing you to come to the store to pick it up (likely in different shipments) they are getting you in the door and we all know what happens when we go inside... plus most people buying EP spend a lot of money on wine / other libations, and 4) if EP goes well you may be more likely to look at TW for your purchases.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#703 Post by Vince T » June 23rd, 2020, 6:51 am

DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:41 am
Oh, you actually think that the negociant is allowing total wine to pay only 50% up front?
No, and that's exactly the point. TW has already paid 100% of it, and they're booking their future 50% of your payment assuming today's currency price. So if your 50% payment is devalued in EUR terms, they then have to book the loss.

I agree their wording is way too broad and doesn't do them any favors
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#704 Post by Ian Dorin » June 23rd, 2020, 6:54 am

T Mikula wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:44 am
Doesn't TW buy "direct" from Chateau?
Bordeaux is the one place where all the serious players buy from the negociant (since you can't buy truly direct).
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#705 Post by T Mikula » June 23rd, 2020, 6:59 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:54 am
T Mikula wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:44 am
Doesn't TW buy "direct" from Chateau?
Bordeaux is the one place where all the serious players buy from the negociant (since you can't buy truly direct).
Ah ok, got it thanks. They do list on their website their Bordeaux wines as "direct".
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#706 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 6:59 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:09 am
Canon is out at £438 per 6. I'm stocking up.
So far 0 for 4 on my attempts to purchase. It's more oversubscribed than Mouton.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#707 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 7:01 am

Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:48 am
Did you just buy up every case from Millesima? Already sold out.
I got none. Everybody was sold out before it released it seems.

Edit: Actually, I just tried Millesima USA and got one case for $552. Thanks for the heads up!

And I added another case from Millesima UK. Will see if they see the duplicate and cancel since they are limiting purchases to 1 case.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#708 Post by Ian Dorin » June 23rd, 2020, 7:12 am

T Mikula wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:59 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:54 am
T Mikula wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:44 am
Doesn't TW buy "direct" from Chateau?
Bordeaux is the one place where all the serious players buy from the negociant (since you can't buy truly direct).
Ah ok, got it thanks. They do list on their website their Bordeaux wines as "direct".
Yup, and an argument can be made either way if saying "direct" and "Bordeaux" in the same sentence by any one is misleading. If you caught me in conversation, I would say that Zachys buys its Bordeaux direct too. It's just easier to say that than explain the negociant system [cheers.gif]
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#709 Post by DanielP » June 23rd, 2020, 7:21 am

Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:51 am
DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:41 am
Oh, you actually think that the negociant is allowing total wine to pay only 50% up front?
No, and that's exactly the point. TW has already paid 100% of it, and they're booking their future 50% of your payment assuming today's currency price. So if your 50% payment is devalued in EUR terms, they then have to book the loss.

I agree their wording is way too broad and doesn't do them any favors
Obviously I am not an accountant, but explain the "loss" to me, if they paid everything up front at a given exchange rate. Why does the EUR conversion matter anymore? If the EUR becomes 10:1 to the dollar, TW still hasn't lost any money in US dollars. If you do all your accounting in EUR then, yes, but I see no reason why it has to be done in EUR as opposed to USD, if the product is already paid for up front at the current exchagne rate.

So either: TW is going to screw you over because they can instead make a larger profit margin by selling it again, or they'd actually be selling it to you at a loss and therefore need to cancel the order.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#710 Post by A Songeur » June 23rd, 2020, 7:36 am

Message for Jeff: I did not find Canon 2019 in your website. Is it any good? Just bought a 3 bottle box.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#711 Post by Lee Barnard » June 23rd, 2020, 7:42 am

DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:21 am
Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:51 am
DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:41 am
Oh, you actually think that the negociant is allowing total wine to pay only 50% up front?
No, and that's exactly the point. TW has already paid 100% of it, and they're booking their future 50% of your payment assuming today's currency price. So if your 50% payment is devalued in EUR terms, they then have to book the loss.

I agree their wording is way too broad and doesn't do them any favors
Obviously I am not an accountant, but explain the "loss" to me, if they paid everything up front at a given exchange rate. Why does the EUR conversion matter anymore? If the EUR becomes 10:1 to the dollar, TW still hasn't lost any money in US dollars. If you do all your accounting in EUR then, yes, but I see no reason why it has to be done in EUR as opposed to USD, if the product is already paid for up front at the current exchagne rate.

So either: TW is going to screw you over because they can instead make a larger profit margin by selling it again, or they'd actually be selling it to you at a loss and therefore need to cancel the order.
A dollar isn't just a dollar. It also has relative value. Very simple hypothetical example.

Today, assume 100EUR = 120USD. The wine is released at 100EUR, so TW quotes the future at 120USD. You pay 60USD and they pay 60USD. You owe them 60USD.

Two years later, 100EUR = 140 USD. You pay them them the 60USD you owe them then. They now go to buy that same wine again (new 2021 or maybe more of the 2019), in either case still priced at 100EUR for simplicity sake. They have 120USD (your original 60USD payment and your subsequent 60USD payment). But to buy that 100EUR wine again, they now would need to pay 140 USD.

When you gave them the 60USD upfront, it had 50EUR of value. They could buy more inventory at that the current exchange rate, they could use it to cash collateralize a swap to ensure that the relative value didn't change, etc. When you gave them the subsequent 60USD, it only had 42EUR of value.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#712 Post by DanielP » June 23rd, 2020, 7:44 am

Lee Barnard wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:42 am
DanielP wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:21 am
Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:51 am


No, and that's exactly the point. TW has already paid 100% of it, and they're booking their future 50% of your payment assuming today's currency price. So if your 50% payment is devalued in EUR terms, they then have to book the loss.

I agree their wording is way too broad and doesn't do them any favors
Obviously I am not an accountant, but explain the "loss" to me, if they paid everything up front at a given exchange rate. Why does the EUR conversion matter anymore? If the EUR becomes 10:1 to the dollar, TW still hasn't lost any money in US dollars. If you do all your accounting in EUR then, yes, but I see no reason why it has to be done in EUR as opposed to USD, if the product is already paid for up front at the current exchagne rate.

So either: TW is going to screw you over because they can instead make a larger profit margin by selling it again, or they'd actually be selling it to you at a loss and therefore need to cancel the order.
A dollar isn't just a dollar. It also has relative value. Very simple hypothetical example.

Today, assume 100EUR = 120USD. The wine is released at 100EUR, so TW quotes the future at 120USD. You pay 60USD and they pay 60USD. You owe them 60USD.

Two years later, 100EUR = 140 USD. You pay them them the 60USD you owe them then. They now go to buy that same wine again (new 2021 or maybe more of the 2019), in either case still priced at 100EUR for simplicity sake. They have 120USD (your original 60USD payment and your subsequent 60USD payment). But to buy that 100EUR wine again, they now would need to pay 140 USD.

When you gave them the 60USD upfront, it had 50EUR of value. They could buy more inventory at that the current exchange rate, they could use is to cash collateralize a swap to ensure that the relative value didn't change, etc. When you gave them the subsequent 60USD, it only had 42EUR of value.
Buying the wine again means nothing if it's already bought. The fact that the wine has appreciated in USD terms (due to forex) would apply regardless of whether you paid 50% up front or not. I could've paid 120 USD up front, and the same issue would apply. To buy the same wine again would cost 140 USD regardless. Does that mean that other stores cancel your order anyways? No, because it's already been bought and paid for.

Again, the only reason this makes sense for TW is that they can sell the wine for more money than you paid or because they never actually paid for the wine up front. In my opinion, #2 is the simplest explanation and also is most consistent with the experience here (unless you actually believe that TW broke the bottles): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154590&hilit=2015+vcc

Sorry for the thread derailing, I will abstain from posting anymore on this topic.
Last edited by DanielP on June 23rd, 2020, 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#713 Post by crickey » June 23rd, 2020, 7:49 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:01 am
Vince T wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:48 am
Did you just buy up every case from Millesima? Already sold out.
I got none. Everybody was sold out before it released it seems.

Edit: Actually, I just tried Millesima USA and got one case for $552. Thanks for the heads up!

And I added another case from Millesima UK. Will see if they see the duplicate and cancel since they are limiting purchases to 1 case.
A six-bottle case, yes?
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#714 Post by Jeff Leve » June 23rd, 2020, 7:55 am

A Songeur wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:36 am
Message for Jeff: I did not find Canon 2019 in your website. Is it any good? Just bought a 3 bottle box.
Canon and neighboring Beau-Sejour Becot, along with a few others did not send samples to anyone. Unless you were in Bordeaux, you were not able to taste it. That being said, knowing the property, consultant and how they manage things, and that their neighbors made great wine, my thought is, it is well-worth buying. As a guess, if you liked 2015 and 2016, you should be happy with 2019.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#715 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 8:00 am

crickey wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:49 am
Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:01 am
I got none. Everybody was sold out before it released it seems.

Edit: Actually, I just tried Millesima USA and got one case for $552. Thanks for the heads up!

And I added another case from Millesima UK. Will see if they see the duplicate and cancel since they are limiting purchases to 1 case.
A six-bottle case, yes?
Yes.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#716 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 8:02 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 7:01 am
Edit: Actually, I just tried Millesima USA and got one case for $552. Thanks for the heads up!

And I added another case from Millesima UK. Will see if they see the duplicate and cancel since they are limiting purchases to 1 case.
It looks like there is some out there after all. I was also able to get 2 more cases allocated from another UK retailer by purchasing 2x quantity of Domaine de Chevalier. Win/win for me as I wanted the Chevy anyway.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#717 Post by Lee Barnard » June 23rd, 2020, 8:10 am

[/quote]

No, because it's already been bought and paid for.


[/quote]

They key part is that is that it has been bought and paid for 100% by you. Whether people realize it or not, you are taking 100% of the foreign currency risk when you buy EP and pay up front. In two years, you will have either paid too much or too little. If you are using EP to lock-in access/current pricing of wine, you should buy EP and a currency swap. But I'm sure most of us don't have an ISDA already in place. TW is no different than a US based lender that lends in foreign currency to a company - you've transferred 100% of the foreign currency risk on the money they have lent you. Unless a lender is purposely taking currency risk, you do a cross currency swap (which covers the interest and principal) on the back end.

This isn't an endorsement of TW or the exact language, but it makes sense that in general they care about foreign currency fluctuations while others do not.

But I agree, let's get back to 2019 BDX.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#718 Post by Jeff P » June 23rd, 2020, 8:16 am

I checked earlier at Millesima (didn't buy any) and was at $92 a bottle for Canon. Now at $111
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#719 Post by Jim Hartten » June 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am

Canon is out at $99 at MacArthur Beverages. Looks like the search is on to secure a few bottles. It seems like many the chateaus have released small traunches to drive the prices back up. [cheers.gif] Buy early!

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#720 Post by YLee » June 23rd, 2020, 8:42 am

If you are buying a lot EP I feel it makes more sense to buy from UK or Fra. Especially if the wines you choose are over 14% abv
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#721 Post by crickey » June 23rd, 2020, 8:43 am

Belair Monange came in around $170. It seems sorta high, for all it's probably quite good.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#722 Post by Mattstolz » June 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am

All this futures currency talk is why I was confused when ‘17 futures hit and we were asked to pay tariffs as well. I’ve always pictured it works like this:

You buy a future to lock in the current price, whatever it is offered by the retailer. at that point you have entered into an agreement with the retailer for them to supply that wine at the offered price. They then enter an agreement AT THAT TIME with the negoce, same thing.

So if a wine releases at 100€/$120, and I buy it from total wine for $120, pay $60 up front to lock in that price; they secure that price from the negoce. At that point, the wine already belongs to total wine (and me, by extension) for $120/100€. So why would an exchange rate in the future matter at all? The wine is already bought!

Isn’t that the whole point of futures? You lock in a price by buying it up front. That way you are protected from tariffs/currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores because it’s already yours.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#723 Post by Jeff P » June 23rd, 2020, 8:53 am

Mattstolz wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am
All this futures currency talk is why I was confused when ‘17 futures hit and we were asked to pay tariffs as well. I’ve always pictured it works like this:

You buy a future to lock in the current price, whatever it is offered by the retailer. at that point you have entered into an agreement with the retailer for them to supply that wine at the offered price. They then enter an agreement AT THAT TIME with the negoce, same thing.

So if a wine releases at 100€/$120, and I buy it from total wine for $120, pay $60 up front to lock in that price; they secure that price from the negoce. At that point, the wine already belongs to total wine (and me, by extension) for $120/100€. So why would an exchange rate in the future matter at all? The wine is already bought!

Isn’t that the whole point of futures? You lock in a price by buying it up front. That way you are protected from tariffs/currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores because it’s already yours.
Yes, but by TW fronting 50% of the fee they are putting out cash/credit that they could've used elsewhere thereby foregoing a potential return on that $. So if you pay 100% it is all your cash and you are the one making that bet. Personally, I like the 50% but it definitely has a caveat
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#724 Post by Ian Dorin » June 23rd, 2020, 8:57 am

Mattstolz wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am
All this futures currency talk is why I was confused when ‘17 futures hit and we were asked to pay tariffs as well. I’ve always pictured it works like this:

You buy a future to lock in the current price, whatever it is offered by the retailer. at that point you have entered into an agreement with the retailer for them to supply that wine at the offered price. They then enter an agreement AT THAT TIME with the negoce, same thing.

So if a wine releases at 100€/$120, and I buy it from total wine for $120, pay $60 up front to lock in that price; they secure that price from the negoce. At that point, the wine already belongs to total wine (and me, by extension) for $120/100€. So why would an exchange rate in the future matter at all? The wine is already bought!

Isn’t that the whole point of futures? You lock in a price by buying it up front. That way you are protected from tariffs/currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores because it’s already yours.
Tariffs were implemented in October of 2019 on goods from France under 14% alcohol, and that is based on when they were SHIPPED, not purchased.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#725 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 23rd, 2020, 8:59 am

Mattstolz wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am
All this futures currency talk is why I was confused when ‘17 futures hit and we were asked to pay tariffs as well. I’ve always pictured it works like this:

You buy a future to lock in the current price, whatever it is offered by the retailer. at that point you have entered into an agreement with the retailer for them to supply that wine at the offered price. They then enter an agreement AT THAT TIME with the negoce, same thing.

So if a wine releases at 100€/$120, and I buy it from total wine for $120, pay $60 up front to lock in that price; they secure that price from the negoce. At that point, the wine already belongs to total wine (and me, by extension) for $120/100€. So why would an exchange rate in the future matter at all? The wine is already bought!

Isn’t that the whole point of futures? You lock in a price by buying it up front. That way you are protected from tariffs/currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores because it’s already yours.
Tariffs and currency are different beasts. You can "lock in" the currency rate by converting dollars to Euros now, and paying up the chain to the negoce now, at the quoted price, and or by hedging if anyone in the chain who operates in dollars locks in the price (in Euros) now, but doesn't actually pay.

Tariffs cannot be locked in or hedged, because they are charged at the time of importation. You can't agree with anyone in the supply chain that the tariffs will be X or that today's tariff will apply, at least not in any way that is binding on the government.

So the answer on tariffs isn't locking them in or hedging, but allocating the risk. This you can do. The terms of your contract with the retailer, and of their contracts up the chain, will govern who agreed to accept the risk. For the 2016s and 2017s, it would appear that most retailers failed to put anything in their contracts, so most (TW apparently being a huge exception) agreed that they had accepted the risk by agreeing to deliver the wine in exchange for the price paid during the EP campaign. For the 2019s, it would appear that most retailers are shifting that risk to the consumer by explicitly putting in their T&C that the price does not include any tariffs and that the buyer will have to pay whatever the tariff is (if any) at the time of importation.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#726 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 23rd, 2020, 9:01 am

Someone upthread seemed to imply (at least as I read it) that for 2019, TW offers you the opportunity to pay 100% instead of 50% and, by doing so, eliminate the "10% currency fluctuation" provision in their T&C. I don't see that anywhere on their website. Is that actually an option and if so where does one look to find the fine print, and how does one take that deal if that's what one prefers?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#727 Post by PCLIN » June 23rd, 2020, 9:02 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:59 am
Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 6:09 am
Canon is out at £438 per 6. I'm stocking up.
So far 0 for 4 on my attempts to purchase. It's more oversubscribed than Mouton.
Not necessarily a bad thing, just saying.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#728 Post by Lee Barnard » June 23rd, 2020, 9:02 am

Mattstolz wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am
All this futures currency talk is why I was confused when ‘17 futures hit and we were asked to pay tariffs as well. I’ve always pictured it works like this:

You buy a future to lock in the current price, whatever it is offered by the retailer. at that point you have entered into an agreement with the retailer for them to supply that wine at the offered price. They then enter an agreement AT THAT TIME with the negoce, same thing.

So if a wine releases at 100€/$120, and I buy it from total wine for $120, pay $60 up front to lock in that price; they secure that price from the negoce. At that point, the wine already belongs to total wine (and me, by extension) for $120/100€. So why would an exchange rate in the future matter at all? The wine is already bought!

Isn’t that the whole point of futures? You lock in a price by buying it up front. That way you are protected from tariffs/currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores because it’s already yours.
More or less (putting aside TW and tariffs) for a moment. But saying you are protected from negatively favorable currency fluctuations/price increases from rave scores is only half the story. You are also on risk for positively favorable currency fluctuations/price decreases once the bottled wine is tasted. It is quite possible when something hits the shelf, it costs less in dollar terms than you paid in EP - maybe because of the current exchange rate, maybe because it wasn't as great in bottle, maybe both.

Tariffs is just a debate on who is responsible since there wasn't generally an agreement between retailer and consumer. Is is like a change in a sales tax where sellers aren't generally expected to bear that? Is it a cost of the retailer? I don't have an answer.

Finally, TW is confusing because effectively they are selling you a future with stapled financing. You don't have to take the stapled financing, but if you do, there is an allocation of risk embedded in the terms which are separate and distinct from the future itself.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#729 Post by PCLIN » June 23rd, 2020, 9:04 am

Jim Hartten wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
Canon is out at $99 at MacArthur Beverages. Looks like the search is on to secure a few bottles. It seems like many the chateaus have released small traunches to drive the prices back up. [cheers.gif] Buy early!

Or just walk away. neener
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#730 Post by Curtis Chen » June 23rd, 2020, 9:09 am

Oddly, I'm considering buying some second wines, like La Chapelle HB or Reserve Lalande. Typically not a buyer and would spend on other producers instead, but the prices aren't bad and they could make for interesting defenders. Anyone else?

Could also be boredom from looking at the same listings over and over [wow.gif]
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#731 Post by Lee Barnard » June 23rd, 2020, 9:30 am

C Chen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 9:09 am
Oddly, I'm considering buying some second wines, like La Chapelle HB or Reserve Lalande. Typically not a buyer and would spend on other producers instead, but the prices aren't bad and they could make for interesting defenders. Anyone else?

Could also be boredom from looking at the same listings over and over [wow.gif]
I have the same thought every year, but then every time I taste a second wine I'm glad I didn't fall into that trap. Prices still seem high for the quality. Not that I've tasted any 2019, but I guess I'd like most of Langoa-Barton, Cantemerle, Sociando, Malartic-Lagraviere, Gloria, etc. more for the same price or less than Reserve Lalande. The second wines aren't hard to find on the shelf and I find the quality so inconsistent that you need to taste.
Last edited by Lee Barnard on June 23rd, 2020, 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#732 Post by DanielP » June 23rd, 2020, 9:31 am

C Chen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 9:09 am
Oddly, I'm considering buying some second wines, like La Chapelle HB or Reserve Lalande. Typically not a buyer and would spend on other producers instead, but the prices aren't bad and they could make for interesting defenders. Anyone else?

Could also be boredom from looking at the same listings over and over [wow.gif]
Don't worry, with modern winemaking techniques, all of these wines might be cellar defenders [berserker.gif]
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#733 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 9:33 am

Jim Hartten wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
Canon is out at $99 at MacArthur Beverages.
Not surprised, those guys are nothing if not opportunists. Their pricing on DRC this year was nearly criminal.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#734 Post by Jim Hartten » June 23rd, 2020, 9:49 am

Not certain you can say selling Canon at $99 per makes you an opportunist. Someone hear noted that Millessima has already raised the price to $111 per. Moreover, some would say trying to corner the market while other go without might be a bit opportunist. [cheers.gif]

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#735 Post by Jeff Leve » June 23rd, 2020, 9:58 am

Andrew K. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 9:33 am
Jim Hartten wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 8:22 am
Canon is out at $99 at MacArthur Beverages.
Not surprised, those guys are nothing if not opportunists. Their pricing on DRC this year was nearly criminal.
Was the price for DRC the same as other retailers, auction results etc?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#736 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 23rd, 2020, 10:18 am

What Total has done is reverse 180 degrees the elements of their program that made it worth considering (well, all but one). The idea of futures has always been: buy now and lock in the price, with the risk of currency fluctuations, changes to taxes and tariffs, increased demand for the wine etc. borne by the retailer. The retailer's side of the transaction came from getting your money up front, being able to use that money until the wines were queued to ship, and presumably becoming a bigger fish in bdx allowing them to buy in greater quantity and lowering prices paid for wines purchased on their own account.

All gone. The buyer takes the risk of changed circumstances w/r/t tariffs and currency fluctuations. And while the "only 50% now" feature is, in a sense, still present, one can't say whether it is 50% or not until the final price is figured. The 2d half payment may be well over 50% of the total.

BTW, the language in the disclaimer does not indicate that you are responsible only for increases in tariffs over those in place at the time of purchase. Rather, it says that "[t]he price reflected on your order form is subject to change after the order is placed if tariffs or taxes are imposed." Well, of course, we know that tariffs will be imposed, or at least are being imposed today, so you should include the existing tariffs in your calculations, not just any anticipated increase in tariffs down the road.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#737 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 23rd, 2020, 10:33 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:18 am
What Total has done is reverse 180 degrees the elements of their program that made it worth considering (well, all but one). The idea of futures has always been: buy now and lock in the price, with the risk of currency fluctuations, changes to taxes and tariffs, increased demand for the wine etc. borne by the retailer. The retailer's side of the transaction came from getting your money up front, being able to use that money until the wines were queued to ship, and presumably becoming a bigger fish in bdx allowing them to buy in greater quantity and lowering prices paid for wines purchased on their own account.

All gone. The buyer takes the risk of changed circumstances w/r/t tariffs and currency fluctuations. And while the "only 50% now" feature is, in a sense, still present, one can't say whether it is 50% or not until the final price is figured. The 2d half payment may be well over 50% of the total.

BTW, the language in the disclaimer does not indicate that you are responsible only for increases in tariffs over those in place at the time of purchase. Rather, it says that "[t]he price reflected on your order form is subject to change after the order is placed if tariffs or taxes are imposed." Well, of course, we know that tariffs will be imposed, or at least are being imposed today, so you should include the existing tariffs in your calculations, not just any anticipated increase in tariffs down the road.
Or just order the fancy wines that are over 14%!

;)

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#738 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 10:34 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 9:58 am
Was the price for DRC the same as other retailers, auction results etc?
Much closer to auction results. Up to 45% more than other retailers.
Last edited by Andrew K. on June 23rd, 2020, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#739 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 23rd, 2020, 10:34 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:33 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:18 am
What Total has done is reverse 180 degrees the elements of their program that made it worth considering (well, all but one). The idea of futures has always been: buy now and lock in the price, with the risk of currency fluctuations, changes to taxes and tariffs, increased demand for the wine etc. borne by the retailer. The retailer's side of the transaction came from getting your money up front, being able to use that money until the wines were queued to ship, and presumably becoming a bigger fish in bdx allowing them to buy in greater quantity and lowering prices paid for wines purchased on their own account.

All gone. The buyer takes the risk of changed circumstances w/r/t tariffs and currency fluctuations. And while the "only 50% now" feature is, in a sense, still present, one can't say whether it is 50% or not until the final price is figured. The 2d half payment may be well over 50% of the total.

BTW, the language in the disclaimer does not indicate that you are responsible only for increases in tariffs over those in place at the time of purchase. Rather, it says that "[t]he price reflected on your order form is subject to change after the order is placed if tariffs or taxes are imposed." Well, of course, we know that tariffs will be imposed, or at least are being imposed today, so you should include the existing tariffs in your calculations, not just any anticipated increase in tariffs down the road.
Or just order the fancy wines that are over 14%!

;)
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#740 Post by Lee Barnard » June 23rd, 2020, 10:38 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:33 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:18 am
What Total has done is reverse 180 degrees the elements of their program that made it worth considering (well, all but one). The idea of futures has always been: buy now and lock in the price, with the risk of currency fluctuations, changes to taxes and tariffs, increased demand for the wine etc. borne by the retailer. The retailer's side of the transaction came from getting your money up front, being able to use that money until the wines were queued to ship, and presumably becoming a bigger fish in bdx allowing them to buy in greater quantity and lowering prices paid for wines purchased on their own account.

All gone. The buyer takes the risk of changed circumstances w/r/t tariffs and currency fluctuations. And while the "only 50% now" feature is, in a sense, still present, one can't say whether it is 50% or not until the final price is figured. The 2d half payment may be well over 50% of the total.

BTW, the language in the disclaimer does not indicate that you are responsible only for increases in tariffs over those in place at the time of purchase. Rather, it says that "[t]he price reflected on your order form is subject to change after the order is placed if tariffs or taxes are imposed." Well, of course, we know that tariffs will be imposed, or at least are being imposed today, so you should include the existing tariffs in your calculations, not just any anticipated increase in tariffs down the road.
Or just order the fancy wines that are over 14%!

;)
That's everything these days! Neal, also worth noting that that every price I've seen quoted (other than Wine Cellarage which is just increases) is before any tariff. Some retailers have mitigating factors like free storage abroad, ability to cancel, etc. But I've been very careful to make sure I confirm the terms, via email with the retailer, before I buy. Most of the language is ambiguous at best. I'd recommend everyone do the same.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#741 Post by Andrew K. » June 23rd, 2020, 10:39 am

Jim Hartten wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 9:49 am
Moreover, some would say trying to corner the market while other go without might be a bit opportunist. [cheers.gif]
Ha! [wow.gif] Touche, but I stopped at 4 6x75 cases. Plenty left for everyone else. But you're right $99 isn't that bad. I was thinking 72, but that was £72 which is over $90 today.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#742 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 23rd, 2020, 11:05 am

K&L has posted Canon at $105, limit 6 per customer, for those who are interested. MacArrthur's also has it at $105, so if they started at $99, they've moved on.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#743 Post by John Flanagan » June 23rd, 2020, 11:14 am

Lot's of price increases since last week. Wonder if the WA scores are partially to blame.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#744 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 23rd, 2020, 11:18 am

D@ve D y r 0 f f wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 11:05 am
K&L has posted Canon at $105, limit 6 per customer, for those who are interested. MacArrthur's also has it at $105, so if they started at $99, they've moved on.
Not too long ago you could still get the 2016 for that price.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#745 Post by Ian Dorin » June 23rd, 2020, 11:20 am

D@ve D y r 0 f f wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 11:05 am
K&L has posted Canon at $105, limit 6 per customer, for those who are interested. MacArrthur's also has it at $105, so if they started at $99, they've moved on.
We still have plenty left at $94, no limit....
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#746 Post by James Lyon » June 23rd, 2020, 11:28 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 10:18 am
What Total has done is reverse 180 degrees the elements of their program that made it worth considering (well, all but one). The idea of futures has always been: buy now and lock in the price, with the risk of currency fluctuations, changes to taxes and tariffs, increased demand for the wine etc. borne by the retailer. The retailer's side of the transaction came from getting your money up front, being able to use that money until the wines were queued to ship, and presumably becoming a bigger fish in bdx allowing them to buy in greater quantity and lowering prices paid for wines purchased on their own account.

All gone. The buyer takes the risk of changed circumstances w/r/t tariffs and currency fluctuations. And while the "only 50% now" feature is, in a sense, still present, one can't say whether it is 50% or not until the final price is figured. The 2d half payment may be well over 50% of the total.

BTW, the language in the disclaimer does not indicate that you are responsible only for increases in tariffs over those in place at the time of purchase. Rather, it says that "[t]he price reflected on your order form is subject to change after the order is placed if tariffs or taxes are imposed." Well, of course, we know that tariffs will be imposed, or at least are being imposed today, so you should include the existing tariffs in your calculations, not just any anticipated increase in tariffs down the road.
If I'm unhappy with the tariffs or currency fluctuation at TW, I'll take the option of a full refund for goods not received.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#747 Post by Jeff P » June 23rd, 2020, 1:19 pm

TW is up
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#748 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 23rd, 2020, 1:27 pm

Jeff P wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 1:19 pm
TW is up
No Canon or PLL.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#749 Post by Jeff P » June 23rd, 2020, 1:34 pm

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 1:27 pm
Jeff P wrote:
June 23rd, 2020, 1:19 pm
TW is up
No Canon or PLL.
I think Canon will be tomorrow since they are usually a day after releases. However, weird on PLL
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#750 Post by Ryan A » June 23rd, 2020, 1:35 pm

And no VCC
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