The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

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Mark Golodetz
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The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 3:16 am

Probably worth starting it’s own thread as the Bordelais are seriously reducing prices in what looks to be a very good vintage. Two major chateaux have released at 30% below the 2018s.

Today Palmer at around £1000 a six pack, roughly translated to $2500 a case of 12 just under $210 a bottle.
Pontet Canet is roughly $80 a bottle.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#2 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 4:17 am

Palmer pricing

Vintage GBP per 6
2000 GBP 1,535
2005 GBP 1,300
2010 GBP 1,285
2015 GBP 1,210
2016 GBP 1,270
2018 GBP 1,445
2019 GBP 999
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#3 Post by Paul @bbott » June 2nd, 2020, 4:44 am

Cantemerle is also now out and down nearly 18% in price, I normally can’t resist it and am wondering what the critics will think. A lighter vintage than 2018 is reported which sounds promising.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#4 Post by Jeff Leve » June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am

My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#5 Post by Jason L Jones » June 2nd, 2020, 7:19 am

If this trend holds I know where those refunded 2017 futures dollars are going.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#6 Post by Jeff_M. » June 2nd, 2020, 7:23 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am
My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.
Been seeing all your instagram posts and stories. That's a full time job receiving and bringing in all those wine boxes! [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#7 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 7:29 am

Jeff_M. wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 7:23 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am
My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.
Been seeing all your instagram posts and stories. That's a full time job receiving and bringing in all those wine boxes! [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]
At least 40 cases of wine, so he is getting his exercise. Sometimes when I look at a ton of cases, I wish I had gone into stamps
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#8 Post by crickey » June 2nd, 2020, 7:46 am

Palmer at $209 today.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#9 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 2nd, 2020, 8:09 am

What’s the general view on the quality of this vintage? Comparisons to past vintages?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#10 Post by DanielP » June 2nd, 2020, 8:11 am

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#11 Post by Lee Barnard » June 2nd, 2020, 8:13 am

I've seen no reason to buy futures in any recent vintage, but think this may be the year. I'm still surprised the Bordelais are really reducing pricing.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#12 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » June 2nd, 2020, 8:14 am

DanielP wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 8:11 am
Yeah, no kidding. I don’t need any more good vintages!

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#13 Post by K. Tr@n » June 2nd, 2020, 8:27 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:17 am
Palmer pricing

Vintage GBP per 6
2000 GBP 1,535
2005 GBP 1,300
2010 GBP 1,285
2015 GBP 1,210
2016 GBP 1,270
2018 GBP 1,445
2019 GBP 999
This is EP pricing only, right?
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#14 Post by YLee » June 2nd, 2020, 9:08 am

Alter Ego price is attractive.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#15 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 2nd, 2020, 10:06 am

The tariff issue is an interesting one. K&L, for example, offered the Pontet-Canet at $85. Wine.com just e-mailed an offer at $80. But K&L's terms and conditions, if I read them right, said "this price is based on current tariffs" and reserves certain rights if the tariffs increase (also with no promise of a partial refund if the tariff goes away, though they have also apparently not been trying to back out of deals on wines offered before the tariffs, as in the TWM example from another thrad). Wine.com's e-mail, in contrast, says that their price is based on no tariff and reserves certain rights if any tariff is in place at all (though it does not say that the buyer will be obligated to pay the tariff as opposed to any other option, it just says, essentially, "we'll deal with it then").

This issue has far more significance with wines under 14% ABV, obviously, but I thought one of the other threads said that Pontet-Canet is 13.5% in 2019.

Anyway, I find it interesting. Seems like buying at one vs the other is not only betting on the future price of the wine and the viability of the retailer, but also the state of the tariff 2 years hence.
Last edited by D@ve D y r 0 f f on June 2nd, 2020, 12:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#16 Post by John Morris » June 2nd, 2020, 10:53 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:17 am
Palmer pricing

Vintage GBP per 6
2000 GBP 1,535
2005 GBP 1,300
2010 GBP 1,285
2015 GBP 1,210
2016 GBP 1,270
2018 GBP 1,445
2019 GBP 999
So much for the theory that prices always go up.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#17 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 2nd, 2020, 12:02 pm

I suspect that every retailer offering futures will have a "based on existing tariffs" clause somewhere on their site or in the invoices. It would not be prudent to leave that to chance.

Although I will not be buying any futures, no matter what, I do like the fact that the bordelais are recognizing the economic and geopolitical situation in which their products are being offered. Sensible.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#18 Post by Sh@n A » June 2nd, 2020, 12:05 pm

Mark, is the view 2019 is similar to those vintages in quality/repute, vs. say a 2014?
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#19 Post by Tomás Costa » June 2nd, 2020, 12:14 pm

No tariffs for me, as a European. Should I sink my teeth into this?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#20 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm

I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#21 Post by Sh@n A » June 2nd, 2020, 12:28 pm

Thank you
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#22 Post by Bengera A » June 2nd, 2020, 12:47 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am
My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.
Sneak preview on Pontet Canet and Palmer, perhaps?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#23 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 1:06 pm

This may help. Jane Anson who writes for Decanter, lives in Bordeaux. A fine taster, nice person and excellent writer. She has recently written a book Inside Bordeaux.

Palmer 2019

98 Points, Decanter Magazine: Iris and violet aromatics swirl out of the glass. In the mouth, things are velvet in texture and packed with concentrated cassis puree and blackberry fruit, gentle spice, soft charcoal and sappy tannins, with the whole thing just slowly slowly expanding and building through the palate, tightening its grip as it reaches the close of play. The Palmer signature of energy and precision is here in spades, and altogether the wine is both measured and elegant, with textbook floral Margaux character, while being extremely juicy, creamy and enjoyable, with a mouthwatering salinity on the finish – up there with the very best vintages of this estate. Low SO2, as has been the case for a few years now in line with biodynamic principles. Back to normal yield this year of (a very welcome I would imagine) 45hl/ha. Harvest September 19 to October 19. 60% new oak, likely to be in barrels for the first year then large sized oak casks for the second year. 55% of overall production in the 1st wine. Drinking Window 2028 – 2042 – Tasted by Jane Anson (at Primeur week tastings in Bordeaux, 24 May 2020) Part of Château Palmer 2019 released, rated 98 points by Anson

2019 Alter Ego de Palmer
DM: 94
$59 per bottle | Arriving in 2022
94 Points, Decanter Magazine: Cinnamon spice on the nose, with a patisserie edge to the fruits that gives a rich, creamy impression. As ever with the Palmer stable of wines, you can pick out the individual flavours clearly, with careful and precise delineation of cassis, bilberry, slate and tobacco notes, but overall this is an outstanding Alter Ego that puts the emphasis on pleasure. Tannins are extremely precise but feathery and pliable. An extremely low 37ppm of SO2 at this stage, in keeping with biodynamic principles and a desire to let the fruit speak. 3.62ph. 45hl/h yield, 45% of overall production in Alter Ego. Drinking Window 2024 – 2038. – Tasted by Jane Anson (at Primeur week tastings in Bordeaux, 24 May 2020) Part of Château Palmer 2019 released, rated 98 points by Anson
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#24 Post by William Gladstone » June 2nd, 2020, 1:32 pm

Bengera A wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:47 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am
My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.
Sneak preview on Pontet Canet and Palmer, perhaps?
A sneak peak - of price, Ch. Palmer was released today through the distribution system to importers at 161 Euros/bt.
Not much is being offered so i suspect it will be difficult - few and far between in the market - and is set up for a 2nd tranche release.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#25 Post by crickey » June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#26 Post by Jeff Leve » June 2nd, 2020, 2:45 pm

crickey wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
It depends on the wine. Generally speaking, it is slightly lower than 18, especially in the Medoc by perhaps .5. It is impossible to have reductions of 1.5%.

William Gladstone... The price is not solely for importers. It is the price offered to all merchants, importers, wholesalers, retailers, etc that purchase from negociants. Palmer is a small property and not much is produced. They also always hold back wines.
Last edited by Jeff Leve on June 2nd, 2020, 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#27 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 2nd, 2020, 2:46 pm

crickey wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
The comparisons were to 2018, and yes, I was hearing certainly fresher and less alcoholic.

I am not sure about 2010 comparisons, but the alcohol levels were even higher than 2018, and so logically the 2019 is lower. It seems that 2010 would be difficult to compare any vintage considering the dry matter and alcohol were at record levels.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#28 Post by DanielP » June 2nd, 2020, 3:00 pm

I know this has been discussed in a separate thread dedicated to Palmer, but I find it fascinating that Palmer seems to occupy this pricing niche all by itself. I've never had Palmer myself, but as a bottom-feeder, my perception of Palmer doesn't really correlate with its pricing unlike, say Mission Haut Brion.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#29 Post by HMechbal » June 2nd, 2020, 3:05 pm

1.5% reduction seems implausible though...

No tariffs for me either, I did not intend to go deep on 2019 primeur but if the -33% trend persists, I might bite the bullet for select wines. I've already taken a couple of Pontet Canet and Roc de Cambes (price is up vs. 2018 though for this one !).

Palmer is nice and one of the first wine that left me thunderstruck at a student tasting, but I've found it hard to justify the price vs. some other Margaux (Rauzan Segla for instance).
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#30 Post by William Gladstone » June 2nd, 2020, 3:27 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 2:45 pm
crickey wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
It depends on the wine. Generally speaking, it is slightly lower than 18, especially in the Medoc by perhaps .5. It is impossible to have reductions of 1.5%.

William Gladstone... The price is not solely for importers. It is the price offered to all merchants, importers, wholesalers, retailers, etc that purchase from negociants. Palmer is a small property and not much is produced. They also always hold back wines.
Jeff - I am so fortunate that you are always right there to give me corrections, advice and the most extreme expert information.
The Berserker community benefits by your knowledge and wisdom, I know that I do..

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#31 Post by William Gladstone » June 2nd, 2020, 3:30 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 2:45 pm
crickey wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
It depends on the wine. Generally speaking, it is slightly lower than 18, especially in the Medoc by perhaps .5. It is impossible to have reductions of 1.5%.

William Gladstone... The price is not solely for importers. It is the price offered to all merchants, importers, wholesalers, retailers, etc that purchase from negociants. Palmer is a small property and not much is produced. They also always hold back wines.
Jeff - I should send my thoughts to you - so that you can add your expertise before I make any comments or statements that will be listed on this site.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#32 Post by Jeff Leve » June 2nd, 2020, 3:35 pm

William Gladstone wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 3:27 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 2:45 pm
crickey wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:57 pm


2018 was described as "fresh" too.

I don't know where you are hearing less alcohol (I presume than 2018). Reports I've seen (which, admittedly, cover a much broader range of wines than we purchase in the US) indicate that alcohol levels in 2019 are about the same as 2018, particularly in Merlot-based wines. Jane Anson said recently, "As per the last few years, you are going to see raised alcohol levels in 2019." The most-common vintage comparison I've seen is to 2010, which was not a low-alcohol vintage.
It depends on the wine. Generally speaking, it is slightly lower than 18, especially in the Medoc by perhaps .5. It is impossible to have reductions of 1.5%.

William Gladstone... The price is not solely for importers. It is the price offered to all merchants, importers, wholesalers, retailers, etc that purchase from negociants. Palmer is a small property and not much is produced. They also always hold back wines.
Jeff - I am so fortunate that you are always right there to give me corrections, advice and the most extreme expert information.
The Berserker community benefits by your knowledge and wisdom, I know that I do..
Glad I could help. flirtysmile

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#33 Post by Howard Cooper » June 2nd, 2020, 4:07 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:15 pm
I have not tasted them.
The data points that I have is from talking to owners and from various sheets by the chateaux post malolactic.

1. They are less alcoholic, perhaps up to 1.5%
2. They are agreeably fresh.

All this is as per owners, so take with pinch of salt. I had promised myself I would not buy, and here am I taking a couple of flyers, because these prices are relatively weak. I bought magnums of Palmer and a little Pontet Canet.
Surprising given how hot it was during the summer of 2009.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#34 Post by Dan Kravitz » June 2nd, 2020, 4:28 pm

Howard,

[I assume you meant to type '2019', not '2009', although 2009 was hot also.]

At certain heat levels, photosynthesis shuts down. A sudden extreme heat wave does not necessarily translate to higher alcohol.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#35 Post by Howard Cooper » June 2nd, 2020, 4:31 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:28 pm
Howard,

[I assume you meant to type '2019', not '2009', although 2009 was hot also.]

At certain heat levels, photosynthesis shuts down. A sudden extreme heat wave does not necessarily translate to higher alcohol.

Dan Kravitz
yes, I meant to write 2019. Can photosynthesis shutting down be good for the grapes?
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#36 Post by JonathanG » June 2nd, 2020, 4:38 pm

Regarding retailers' views on tariffs, I have been asking for more information from a handful. Here is what I have learned thusfar:

Sotheby - If tariffs are still in force when it comes time to import, you can either pay the additional tariff (TBD if its based on their price vs retail) or you can pay them to store your wine in France in a facility they will have in place in the near future. I have not yet reviewed their exiting T&C's to see if it has anything specific on this point

Millesima - Did not explicitly comment on whether they will seek to charge the tariff, but if the tariff is still in place for delivery date, they will store the wine in France for free. T&C's on futures below

Futures
An order for wines sold as "futures" for delivery at a future date must normally be paid at the time of order by a deposit equal to the full value of the merchandise. Customers are advised that some states may prohibit or restrict such "futures" sales, and it is their responsibility to be informed of and abide by such state laws. Following processing of a "futures" order and receipt of deposit, a pro forma invoice will be mailed or emailed to the customer's billing address. This invoice together with proof of payment will guarantee ownership of the wines. Once the invoice has been mailed and the deposit has been received, the order is final and cannot be cancelled or modified. Additional "futures" wines may be ordered, but they will be invoiced and must be paid separately. Projected arrival and delivery dates for "futures" are estimates only and may vary by several months, depending upon the timing of the release from the estate and other factors. When the wines are ready for delivery, the customer will be contacted by Millesima USA LLC to confirm delivery arrangements and to advise of the sales tax and shipping charges, if any, which apply at that time. The customer will have 30 days from date of notification to pay any and all remaining charges and either take delivery of the merchandise or pick up the wines at the Millesima USA LLC retail premise. No "futures" merchandise shall be delivered or may be picked up until and unless all outstanding charges are paid in full. Millesima USA LLC does not store wines for customers at its retail premise or elsewhere. If the customer fails to pay all remaining charges by 30 days from date of notification of availability, Millesima USA LLC reserves the right to cancel the order. Millesima USA LLC will, in the case of such cancelation, refund the full amount of the original deposit paid by the customer. In the event that any wines ordered as "futures" by a customer are unavailable at the time of delivery, Millesima USA LLC will refund the full value of any and all such "futures" wines as originally invoiced to the customer.

Wine.com - Their email announcing the release of the 2019 pontet canet did basically say they will "work with you" but there is nothing in their T&Cs that allows them to charge you after the fact for the tariff. I believe they haven't quite worked out a full fledge gameplan yet but it will likely be either what Millesima or Sotheby is offering (free or pay-for-it storage in France) but they will not try to charge you any additional amounts.

K&L - They are selling Pontet for $90 (12% more than others). Here is what their website says regarding tariffs when you view the pontet canet:

2019 Bordeaux Futures are being offered without any added tariffs. If there are applicable tariffs at the time the wines are imported in 2022, we will contact you with the option to pay tariffs to have the wine delivered, or cancel the order with no penalty.

https://klwines.com/p/i?i=1480772

Based on where things stand now, I will be ordering from Millesima and Wine.com. The advantage to wine.com is the free shipping, which is meaningful since Millesima ships out of NY.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#37 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » June 2nd, 2020, 4:42 pm

JonathanG wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:38 pm


K&L - They are selling Pontet for $90 (12% more than others). Here is what their website says regarding tariffs when you view the pontet canet:

2019 Bordeaux Futures are being offered without any added tariffs. If there are applicable tariffs at the time the wines are imported in 2022, we will contact you with the option to pay tariffs to have the wine delivered, or cancel the order with no penalty.

https://klwines.com/p/i?i=1480772
Hmm. Either that wasn't there when I was looking before, or I missed it. In my earlier post, I was referring to this notice, which does appear (and you have to check) before you check out, including for 2019 futures:

Notice regarding potential tariffs: K&L bases our pricing on the current import costs at the time of your purchase. If there are additional tariffs in place at the time your pre-arrival purchase is ready to get picked up by our importer, we can offer the following options:
1) Refund the purchase price to your account.
2) Delay delivery (where possible) until the tariff has been lifted.
3) Collect payment for additional tariff costs that are applicable when your product clears customs.
We apologize for any inconvenience brought about by the current administration’s trade negotiations. By checking this box, you agree to these conditions.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#38 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » June 2nd, 2020, 7:36 pm

Additional question: will K&L *refund* a portion of the purchase price if the tariffs disappear or go down?

That is a mere academic question for me, as I want no part of EP with the tariffs issue and COVID issue up in the air. Quite frankly, I cannot imagine how the environment could be any less stable, or any more volatile, for futures purchases. I'll just buy off the shelf, assuming the pricing is good.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#39 Post by JonathanG » June 2nd, 2020, 7:58 pm

D@ve D y r 0 f f wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:42 pm
JonathanG wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:38 pm


K&L - They are selling Pontet for $90 (12% more than others). Here is what their website says regarding tariffs when you view the pontet canet:

2019 Bordeaux Futures are being offered without any added tariffs. If there are applicable tariffs at the time the wines are imported in 2022, we will contact you with the option to pay tariffs to have the wine delivered, or cancel the order with no penalty.

https://klwines.com/p/i?i=1480772
Hmm. Either that wasn't there when I was looking before, or I missed it. In my earlier post, I was referring to this notice, which does appear (and you have to check) before you check out, including for 2019 futures:

Notice regarding potential tariffs: K&L bases our pricing on the current import costs at the time of your purchase. If there are additional tariffs in place at the time your pre-arrival purchase is ready to get picked up by our importer, we can offer the following options:
1) Refund the purchase price to your account.
2) Delay delivery (where possible) until the tariff has been lifted.
3) Collect payment for additional tariff costs that are applicable when your product clears customs.
We apologize for any inconvenience brought about by the current administration’s trade negotiations. By checking this box, you agree to these conditions.
Whats more interesting is that on the product page it says cancel with no penalty. But your post says refund to your account (which I interpret as store credit)...
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#40 Post by Ryan A » June 3rd, 2020, 12:48 am

Cos d’Estournel and Pagodes are both out ~$140 (23%) and $44 (~15%)
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#41 Post by HMechbal » June 3rd, 2020, 5:47 am

Interesting situation for Malescot St Exupery which is out (EUR35, -26%), not waiting on any score from critics. Or, at least, I couldn't find a single one.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#42 Post by K. Tr@n » June 3rd, 2020, 7:45 am

Ryan A wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 12:48 am
Cos d’Estournel and Pagodes are both out ~$140 (23%) and $44 (~15%)
Someone reported in the Costco thread 2016 Cos was going for 169 for a long time, and then reduced to 129 and he cleared out the stock. Pagodes is always sub 50 and available year round.
EP price is not attractive. They need at least 35% off like the others.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#43 Post by K. Tr@n » June 3rd, 2020, 7:50 am

HMechbal wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 5:47 am
Interesting situation for Malescot St Exupery which is out (EUR35, -26%), not waiting on any score from critics. Or, at least, I couldn't find a single one.
2016 Malescot was a little over $50 regular price at Costco for so long. EP price from Malescot is just silly. Who wants to tie up money for 2 years + potential tariff when you know you can pick them up in a few years for similar price?
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#44 Post by Vince T » June 3rd, 2020, 8:10 am

Tomás Costa wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:14 pm
No tariffs for me, as a European. Should I sink my teeth into this?
As a young wine taster who is just exploring wine, you would be much better off experimenting with many Bordeaux wines (young and old), deciding which styles you really love (if any), before you sink a bunch of money into wines that won't arrive for 2 years, and probably won't be drinking at peak for 10-25 years!

If in the next 2 years you decide you LOVE Bordeaux, then you can still buy the wines at retail, and the odds are that most of the wines will not be significantly more expensive than they are en primeur.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#45 Post by Bengera A » June 3rd, 2020, 9:05 am

William Gladstone wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 1:32 pm
Bengera A wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 12:47 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 6:25 am
My report on over 500 wines will be out next week. Wines are still arriving on a daily basis.
Sneak preview on Pontet Canet and Palmer, perhaps?
A sneak peak - of price, Ch. Palmer was released today through the distribution system to importers at 161 Euros/bt.
Not much is being offered so i suspect it will be difficult - few and far between in the market - and is set up for a 2nd tranche release.
I was referring to Jeff giving us a sneak preview of his reviews of those two wines, not prices.

Jeff, I know that you're going to publish your report next week but maybe you could post your reviews for the ("big") releases from last week, this week and new ones as they come out?

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#46 Post by HMechbal » June 3rd, 2020, 9:57 am

K. Tr@n wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 7:50 am
HMechbal wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 5:47 am
Interesting situation for Malescot St Exupery which is out (EUR35, -26%), not waiting on any score from critics. Or, at least, I couldn't find a single one.
2016 Malescot was a little over $50 regular price at Costco for so long. EP price from Malescot is just silly. Who wants to tie up money for 2 years + potential tariff when you know you can pick them up in a few years for similar price?

Seems like the US and in general the export market has more opportunities (or more frequently at least) to get good pricing on these wines. Right now, after a cursory Google search, 2016 Malescot is unavailable in a lot of French wine sellers websites, and the ones which still list it sell it a 72-73 euros.

Now, you might get a good opportunity once a year, one year, when you have the Foire aux Vins in France (early fall) to get it at EP price or close but (i) you're never sure that this particular wine will be available and (ii) the Foire aux Vins are a hassle.
Then again, there is no shortage of good wine so you could replace Malescot by another Margaux/Bordeaux but if you are fond of a particular estate, Primeurs might still be the right way to source, even if it's not anymore the financial opportunity that it once was.
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#47 Post by Lee Barnard » June 3rd, 2020, 10:10 am

HMechbal wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 9:57 am
K. Tr@n wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 7:50 am
HMechbal wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 5:47 am
Interesting situation for Malescot St Exupery which is out (EUR35, -26%), not waiting on any score from critics. Or, at least, I couldn't find a single one.
2016 Malescot was a little over $50 regular price at Costco for so long. EP price from Malescot is just silly. Who wants to tie up money for 2 years + potential tariff when you know you can pick them up in a few years for similar price?

Seems like the US and in general the export market has more opportunities (or more frequently at least) to get good pricing on these wines. Right now, after a cursory Google search, 2016 Malescot is unavailable in a lot of French wine sellers websites, and the ones which still list it sell it a 72-73 euros.

Now, you might get a good opportunity once a year, one year, when you have the Foire aux Vins in France (early fall) to get it at EP price or close but (i) you're never sure that this particular wine will be available and (ii) the Foire aux Vins are a hassle.
Then again, there is no shortage of good wine so you could replace Malescot by another Margaux/Bordeaux but if you are fond of a particular estate, Primeurs might still be the right way to source, even if it's not anymore the financial opportunity that it once was.
I do wonder, assuming things are relatively back to normal in two years, if we see the Bordelais significantly raise the shelf price. I have to think they know that people realize EP isn't an interesting buying opportunity anymore, so why not make a statement when you priced 2019 EP at a sizable discount to prior vintages. Guess it depends how much 2014-2019 still needs to be sold by then.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#48 Post by Yao C » June 3rd, 2020, 10:32 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 7:36 pm
That is a mere academic question for me, as I want no part of EP with the tariffs issue and COVID issue up in the air. Quite frankly, I cannot imagine how the environment could be any less stable, or any more volatile, for futures purchases. I'll just buy off the shelf, assuming the pricing is good.
Agreed. To paraphrase Victor I have zero interest in providing liquidity to the three-tier system at a time when it is systematically shifting more and more risk to the consumer...
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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#49 Post by Dan Kravitz » June 3rd, 2020, 2:01 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:31 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 4:28 pm
Howard,

[I assume you meant to type '2019', not '2009', although 2009 was hot also.]

At certain heat levels, photosynthesis shuts down. A sudden extreme heat wave does not necessarily translate to higher alcohol.

Dan Kravitz
yes, I meant to write 2019. Can photosynthesis shutting down be good for the grapes?

Howard,

I've heard varying opinions on this. Sorry, but I don't think there's a clear definitive answer; it could well vary on a case by case basis and I am totally unqualified to make any further comment. Hopefully some growers can chime in.

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Re: The 2019 Bordeaux are coming out.

#50 Post by OwenB » June 3rd, 2020, 2:10 pm

Per wine advocate, 2019 Cos is 14.02% alcohol.
    8 A $ H A

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