2019 German Riesling

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DanielP
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#101 Post by DanielP » July 13th, 2020, 9:53 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 4:02 am
Julian Haart prices seem to have gone up quite a bit in NYC market this year.
How much better is his goldtropchen kabinett than the AJ Adam/Julian Haart Goldtropchen Kabinett collaboration? And yet, I'm still tempted. Momentum is a hell of a drug when it comes to buying wine.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#102 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 13th, 2020, 9:59 am

The collaboration was 2015? Not ongoing.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#103 Post by DanielP » July 13th, 2020, 10:08 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 9:59 am
The collaboration was 2015? Not ongoing.
Ah, wasn't sure. Think it was 2016 though.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#104 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 13th, 2020, 10:30 am

DanielP wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:08 am
Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 9:59 am
The collaboration was 2015? Not ongoing.
Ah, wasn't sure. Think it was 2016 though.
Yes actually I don’t think it was a one off. I’m more sure there’s no 2019.

Julian‘s Kabinett is absolute highest quality always.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#105 Post by Matt Neumeyer » July 13th, 2020, 10:46 am

Anyone have a good source for a wide variety of riesling that they are willing to share? Current vintages, wanting to buy about 3-4 cases per year of various producers, definitely some of the bigger names. K&L is my leader out of the clubhouse right now, but was hoping I'm missing an outlet I hadn't heard of.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#106 Post by David_K » July 13th, 2020, 10:48 am

Can someone tell me what is so special about the Julian Haart wines? Are they really that good, or is it just a halo effect from the Keller association? I have only had the 1000L cuvee. I don't doubt his wines are of high quality, but there are a lot of high quality wines in the Mosel, so there's clearly something else going on here.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#107 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » July 13th, 2020, 11:51 am

David_K wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:48 am
Can someone tell me what is so special about the Julian Haart wines? Are they really that good, or is it just a halo effect from the Keller association? I have only had the 1000L cuvee. I don't doubt his wines are of high quality, but there are a lot of high quality wines in the Mosel, so there's clearly something else going on here.
I haven't had a Julian Haart wine in awhile. Though it wasn't my style I remember it being a well-made wine, but not earth shattering. There are lots of excellent producers who don't get nearly as much attention.
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2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#108 Post by A.Gillette » July 13th, 2020, 11:59 am

David_K wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:48 am
Can someone tell me what is so special about the Julian Haart wines? Are they really that good, or is it just a halo effect from the Keller association? I have only had the 1000L cuvee. I don't doubt his wines are of high quality, but there are a lot of high quality wines in the Mosel, so there's clearly something else going on here.
The wines are very, very good. I don’t think it’s the Keller association. Keller tends to get more attention for his dry wines and Haart is the reverse. The wines were not so easy to get even before he gave up schubertslay to Keller. I would say if you like proper pradikat level kabinett with verve and a sense of place, Julian’s is about as good as you can get. I think the kabis are pretty distinct and easy to spot among competitors.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#109 Post by DanielP » July 13th, 2020, 12:14 pm

It's a combination of factors, but I think the Keller AND Egon Muller association certainly does give a halo effect. And of course, the wines are good. But I thought the 2015 Goldtropfchen Kabinett needed a lot of time when I drank it on release, so time will be the ultimate judge as to just how good these wines can truly be.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#110 Post by Jay Miller » July 13th, 2020, 12:23 pm

I love the wines (especially loved their Schubertslay when they still had it). Unfortunately the bottles are so tall that they don't fit in one of my wine fridges and don't fit in standard cardboard wine cases.

The whole Keller thing has certainly given them more publicity though.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#111 Post by Ian S » July 13th, 2020, 12:24 pm

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 7:45 am

I thought the 2003 JJ Prum Auslese were quite nice when tasted at the estate. Different, but enjoyable.
I think "unctuous" is the term most would use to describe a slightly thicker and less acidic sweet wine.
Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 7:45 am

Might need to try to seek out some of the older Richter Spatlese.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#112 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 13th, 2020, 1:05 pm

I think I need to open a haart tonight.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#113 Post by Robert Dentice » July 13th, 2020, 2:13 pm

A.Gillette wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 11:59 am
David_K wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:48 am
Can someone tell me what is so special about the Julian Haart wines? Are they really that good, or is it just a halo effect from the Keller association? I have only had the 1000L cuvee. I don't doubt his wines are of high quality, but there are a lot of high quality wines in the Mosel, so there's clearly something else going on here.
The wines are very, very good. I don’t think it’s the Keller association. Keller tends to get more attention for his dry wines and Haart is the reverse. The wines were not so easy to get even before he gave up schubertslay to Keller. I would say if you like proper pradikat level kabinett with verve and a sense of place, Julian’s is about as good as you can get. I think the kabis are pretty distinct and easy to spot among competitors.
The wines are very good and produced in extremely small quantities. In addition to Keller, Julian trained at Egon Muller, Heymann-Löwenstein and Emrich-Schönleber, quite a resume.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#114 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 14th, 2020, 5:04 am

David_K wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:48 am
Can someone tell me what is so special about the Julian Haart wines?
New kid on the block, therefore the "thing."

Don't get me wrong, the wines are excellent, but they are not some dramatically different/more interesting version of Mosel Riesling.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#115 Post by JulianD » July 14th, 2020, 10:45 am

Matt Neumeyer wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:46 am
Anyone have a good source for a wide variety of riesling that they are willing to share? Current vintages, wanting to buy about 3-4 cases per year of various producers, definitely some of the bigger names. K&L is my leader out of the clubhouse right now, but was hoping I'm missing an outlet I hadn't heard of.
+1 for those of us on the west coast, where are you guys ordering your 2019s?
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#116 Post by mattcitrang » July 14th, 2020, 10:55 am

Flatiron Wines in NYC just had a large offering that closed last Saturday. Contact them maybe you can still get in.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#117 Post by J. Rock » July 14th, 2020, 10:56 am

JulianD wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:45 am
Matt Neumeyer wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 10:46 am
Anyone have a good source for a wide variety of riesling that they are willing to share? Current vintages, wanting to buy about 3-4 cases per year of various producers, definitely some of the bigger names. K&L is my leader out of the clubhouse right now, but was hoping I'm missing an outlet I hadn't heard of.
+1 for those of us on the west coast, where are you guys ordering your 2019s?
The Wine House has a really good Riesling selection. I also think Woodland Hills Wine Company and KL carry a lot of good Rieslings.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#118 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 14th, 2020, 11:18 am

mattcitrang wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:55 am
Flatiron Wines in NYC just had a large offering that closed last Saturday. Contact them maybe you can still get in.
Closes next Saturday. They haven't even sent part 3 yet. It's basically the whole Skurnik book.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#119 Post by mattcitrang » July 14th, 2020, 11:39 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:18 am
mattcitrang wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:55 am
Flatiron Wines in NYC just had a large offering that closed last Saturday. Contact them maybe you can still get in.
Closes next Saturday. They haven't even sent part 3 yet. It's basically the whole Skurnik book.
Ethan, thanks for the correction, my mistake. I'm a week ahead of myself.

BTW Part 3 just hit my email box.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#120 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 14th, 2020, 11:50 am

mattcitrang wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:39 am
Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:18 am
mattcitrang wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:55 am
Flatiron Wines in NYC just had a large offering that closed last Saturday. Contact them maybe you can still get in.
Closes next Saturday. They haven't even sent part 3 yet. It's basically the whole Skurnik book.
Ethan, thanks for the correction, my mistake. I'm a week ahead of myself.

BTW Part 3 just hit my email box.
I have to say I like buying this way much better than the usual US way of random emails, remembering to look for producers you want, etc. It's so much more civilized and easy to plan cellar distribution, budget, etc.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#121 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » July 14th, 2020, 4:39 pm

Looking at the Flatiron list right now. Likely won't buy anything but curious what people's thoughts are on the Selbach-Oster and Merkelbach wines.
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2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
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2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#122 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm

Well I have not tasted the 2019s, but Selbach has been firing on all cylinders for nearly two decades, and Meulenhof has made a big comeback the last five years. Great value there.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#123 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » July 14th, 2020, 5:00 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Well I have not tasted the 2019s, but Selbach has been firing on all cylinders for nearly two decades, and Meulenhof has made a big comeback the last five years. Great value there.
For S-O, do you have a preferred feinherb or kabinett?
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2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#124 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 14th, 2020, 6:03 pm

The current D-I offering is the 2018 Zeltinger Sonnenuhr Ur Alte Reben, and I am buying.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#125 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 14th, 2020, 6:04 pm

As for Kabinett, when I buy (about every other year) it’s Zeltinger Schlossberg.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#126 Post by Ian S » July 14th, 2020, 6:47 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Well I have not tasted the 2019s, but Selbach has been firing on all cylinders for nearly two decades.....
Great value there.
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 6:04 pm
As for Kabinett, when I buy (about every other year) it’s Zeltinger Schlossberg.
Again, complete agreement. If you want to stray into Auslese, their Zeltinger Sonnenuhr Rotlay is another excellent bottle from Selbach-Oster.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#127 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 14th, 2020, 6:52 pm

More of a Schmitt guy, but yes, Rotlay is excellent.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#128 Post by adam caldwell » July 15th, 2020, 3:28 pm

I am a fan of Julian Haart Rieslings and have been buying what I can last couple years but man a $90 Kabinett ? Stopped me in my tracks, guess I have to adjust to get my head around the 2019 pricing.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#129 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 15th, 2020, 9:14 pm

$90? That must be the WO Alte Reben? I’d pay that much but it was only €39 in Europe. If you could find it.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#130 Post by adam caldwell » July 15th, 2020, 9:30 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 15th, 2020, 9:14 pm
$90? That must be the WO Alte Reben? I’d pay that much but it was only €39 in Europe. If you could find it.
Julian Haart Ohligsberg Kabinett "Alte Reben", 2019, $90, I’d like to have it, price just threw me off. His GGs going for @$100 usd. It’s early here for offers but past vintages GGs were @ 45-65 range. He reported 30% of normal yield so hopefully it’s just a temporary spike. So you had the Kabinett and loved it Russell ?

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#131 Post by DanielP » July 15th, 2020, 9:32 pm

I think it's more a function of tariffs and everyone taking their normal markup
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#132 Post by adam caldwell » July 15th, 2020, 9:37 pm

DanielP wrote:
July 15th, 2020, 9:32 pm
I think it's more a function of tariffs and everyone taking their normal markup
Very true tariffs certainly don’t help.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#133 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 15th, 2020, 11:17 pm

I haven’t opened any of the ‘white labels’ from 2019 yet but I’d be a buyer even at $90. It’s a very hard to find wine.

I’ve long been one of the voices advocating higher prices for ‘proper’ Kabinett. After all it’s a lot more effort than making Auslese.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#134 Post by Howard Cooper » July 16th, 2020, 5:08 am

Brian S t o t t e r wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 5:00 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Well I have not tasted the 2019s, but Selbach has been firing on all cylinders for nearly two decades, and Meulenhof has made a big comeback the last five years. Great value there.
For S-O, do you have a preferred feinherb or kabinett?
My favorite Selbach vineyard has always been the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#135 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 16th, 2020, 5:12 am

DanielP wrote:
July 15th, 2020, 9:32 pm
I think it's more a function of tariffs and everyone taking their normal markup
Tariffs are 25%, so a 40%+ jump is not just tariffs.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#136 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 16th, 2020, 6:00 am

champagne.gif
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 16th, 2020, 5:12 am
DanielP wrote:
July 15th, 2020, 9:32 pm
I think it's more a function of tariffs and everyone taking their normal markup
Tariffs are 25%, so a 40%+ jump is not just tariffs.
Been told the estate raised prices a bit, can't blame them. Howard Ripley in UK had price on the kabi up 23% this year from last. Add tariffs to that, etc

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#137 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 16th, 2020, 6:20 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 16th, 2020, 6:00 am
champagne.gif
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
July 16th, 2020, 5:12 am
DanielP wrote:
July 15th, 2020, 9:32 pm
I think it's more a function of tariffs and everyone taking their normal markup
Tariffs are 25%, so a 40%+ jump is not just tariffs.
Been told the estate raised prices a bit, can't blame them. Howard Ripley in UK had price on the kabi up 23% this year from last. Add tariffs to that, etc
That would make sense then. A lot of top quality German Riesling is underpriced these days. I don't want to see everyone at Keller levels (I think that would kill the segment), but there's some amazing wine that goes for $20 or so. Not sure how anyone makes a living.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#138 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 16th, 2020, 10:37 am

So what's the * signify for selbach Oster? The ZH auslese * seems intriguing for the price if 19 is the year of auslese...

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#139 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 16th, 2020, 12:08 pm

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 16th, 2020, 10:37 am
So what's the * signify for selbach Oster? The ZH auslese * seems intriguing for the price if 19 is the year of auslese...
Stars are a way to differentiate different cuvees (zero to three). Normally the more stars the riper and/or more botrytis. We used to have the Theise catalogs where he described the different wines, but not anymore.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#140 Post by A Songeur » July 17th, 2020, 7:42 am

We need to remain cool/ The last 15 years have been looking a bit like the Arts world. The wine industry has been promoting cult wines and regions. This started with Bordeaux, then moved to Californian wines then Burgundy ... then Piemont... always on the look, the industry can see German Riesling is one of the main remaining region where wine prices have not yet gone silly... then add global warming allowing easier ripening and the crazy machine is gearing in. So, we had Egon Muller... then Keller has become cult and the industry is looking to extend with J Haart and others... I saw this coming a bit and have a bit overbought the last few years mainly from good producers not yet pushed by the industry. I will then probably move to Alsace which is still in the doldrums (bar a few exceptions...). Whether a major economic crisis will change this, I have no clue... It seems the crrent trend is not changing and may even accelerate...
Don't misunderstand me, I love the stuff... but huge price gaps don't seem often justified... cult often means overpriced...
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#141 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 17th, 2020, 10:21 am

.
Last edited by Russell Faulkner on July 17th, 2020, 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#142 Post by DanielP » July 17th, 2020, 10:26 am

I would think that rising labor costs are more of a threat to riesling pricing than some sort of massive shift in the market
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#143 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » July 17th, 2020, 4:43 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 17th, 2020, 10:21 am
.
The final word?

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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#144 Post by Joseph MR » July 20th, 2020, 5:48 pm

I had the 2012 Pergentsknopp, Gottesfuss and Kanzler Alte Reben at Rieslingfeier. Definitely a bigger style of Riesling than other Saar producers, e.g., Lauer. But, still balanced. I really liked the Pergentsknopp, and have the ‘14, ‘15 and ‘16 vintages cellaring, but I bought them in Germany, not here.

Regarding the 2015 vintage, had the Leitz Ehrenfels GG last weekend. Nicely balanced between fruit, acid and dry extract elements, for a wine from a riper vineyard on the Rudesheimer Berg.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#145 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 20th, 2020, 10:37 pm

Joseph MR wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 5:48 pm
I had the 2012 Pergentsknopp, Gottesfuss and Kanzler Alte Reben at Rieslingfeier. Definitely a bigger style of Riesling than other Saar producers, e.g., Lauer. But, still balanced. I really liked the Pergentsknopp, and have the ‘14, ‘15 and ‘16 vintages cellaring, but I bought them in Germany, not here.
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#146 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 21st, 2020, 9:33 am

David_K wrote:
July 3rd, 2020, 7:01 pm
I saw the MFW report. By all means, it looks like a nice vintage and I'll buy some. But I haven't seen anything to suggest this is a once-in-a-lifetime year. There have been a number of fine vintages lately and I have no doubt there will be more to come.
Wise.

Jayson Cohen
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#147 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 21st, 2020, 9:48 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 16th, 2020, 10:37 am
So what's the * signify for selbach Oster? The ZH auslese * seems intriguing for the price if 19 is the year of auslese...
Sorry to miss this thread while the Flatiron offer was still officially open. My understanding for S-O is the Spatlese * is supposedly a special selection by Johannes of what he considers to be his best Z Sonnenuhr Spat barrel that year but not necessarily one with botrytis.

Sometimes I like it better, sometimes not, than the unstarred.

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Joseph MR
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#148 Post by Joseph MR » July 21st, 2020, 4:33 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 10:37 pm
Joseph MR wrote:
July 20th, 2020, 5:48 pm
I had the 2012 Pergentsknopp, Gottesfuss and Kanzler Alte Reben at Rieslingfeier. Definitely a bigger style of Riesling than other Saar producers, e.g., Lauer. But, still balanced. I really liked the Pergentsknopp, and have the ‘14, ‘15 and ‘16 vintages cellaring, but I bought them in Germany, not here.
Van Volxem?
Yes. I thought I had quoted Adam’s question about VaVo, apparently not. I also have a bottle each of 2014 Gottesfuss and Kanzler Alte Reben that maybe should go on deck for this summer.
ra + * ter

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Howard Cooper
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#149 Post by Howard Cooper » July 21st, 2020, 4:59 pm

A Songeur wrote:
July 17th, 2020, 7:42 am
We need to remain cool/ The last 15 years have been looking a bit like the Arts world. The wine industry has been promoting cult wines and regions. This started with Bordeaux, then moved to Californian wines then Burgundy ... then Piemont... always on the look, the industry can see German Riesling is one of the main remaining region where wine prices have not yet gone silly... then add global warming allowing easier ripening and the crazy machine is gearing in. So, we had Egon Muller... then Keller has become cult and the industry is looking to extend with J Haart and others... I saw this coming a bit and have a bit overbought the last few years mainly from good producers not yet pushed by the industry. I will then probably move to Alsace which is still in the doldrums (bar a few exceptions...). Whether a major economic crisis will change this, I have no clue... It seems the crrent trend is not changing and may even accelerate...
Don't misunderstand me, I love the stuff... but huge price gaps don't seem often justified... cult often means overpriced...
I am ok until JJ Prum, Zilliken, Schloss Lieser, von Schubert and Reinhold Haart become cult producers.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

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Brian S t o t t e r
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Re: 2019 German Riesling

#150 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » July 21st, 2020, 6:11 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 21st, 2020, 4:59 pm
A Songeur wrote:
July 17th, 2020, 7:42 am
We need to remain cool/ The last 15 years have been looking a bit like the Arts world. The wine industry has been promoting cult wines and regions. This started with Bordeaux, then moved to Californian wines then Burgundy ... then Piemont... always on the look, the industry can see German Riesling is one of the main remaining region where wine prices have not yet gone silly... then add global warming allowing easier ripening and the crazy machine is gearing in. So, we had Egon Muller... then Keller has become cult and the industry is looking to extend with J Haart and others... I saw this coming a bit and have a bit overbought the last few years mainly from good producers not yet pushed by the industry. I will then probably move to Alsace which is still in the doldrums (bar a few exceptions...). Whether a major economic crisis will change this, I have no clue... It seems the crrent trend is not changing and may even accelerate...
Don't misunderstand me, I love the stuff... but huge price gaps don't seem often justified... cult often means overpriced...
I am ok until JJ Prum, Zilliken, Schloss Lieser, von Schubert and Reinhold Haart become cult producers.
And Willi Schaefer, which is probably the closest in this group to gaining momentum for cult status.
CT: InZinity

2020 contenders for WOTY:
2017 Goodfellow Family Cellars Durant Vineyard Chardonnay
2015 Laherte Frères Champagne Blanc des Blancs Extra Brut Les Grands Crayeres
2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
2018 Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshöhle GG
2015 Josef Walter Hundsruck Spätburgunder "J"

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