$225 Cab discussion

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Ryan A
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#51 Post by Ryan A » May 23rd, 2020, 11:54 am

The above all has great points but is jaded to older vintages and/or a leaner style than the opposite spectrum of ‘fruit bomb’. No side in the argument is right- we all have different style preferences. You will find most/many people on this board with a leaner/older preference however many people appreciate all sides but when presenting usually take a softer approach as they get extreme personalities jumping all over them.

As many have said, try upon release and many times throughout development. Older is not necessarily better and usually takes time to acquire appreciation for mushrooms and heavy earth... and many appellations handle age differently which is very important to understand.

In general I prefer Napa wines upon release and depending on winemaker style and site (mountain vs floor) through 15 years of age. So while I enjoy 2-15 years of age there are moving sweet spots depending on structure, in-balance, site location, wine making style, clone, Your own palate (humans are built differently and our individual ability to experience taste differs widely), etc.

For me Colgin needs ~10 years of age, Abreu ~7-10, myriad dr Crane (2-3 years), Carter LPV (2-6years) while the 2016 Memento Mori Dr Crane was (is) an absolute knockout and that only had 2 years of age in 2018 (and have been appreciating it ever since enjoying different nuances). The above is not exact but is a good illustration for my palate as I love the fruit so the age needs to be young enough to hold on throughout its development yet also enjoyed as it settles in and other dimensions emerge. Early last year my favorite wine was 2003 Abreu Thorevilos (16 years of age) but when I had two more bottles this year the tertiary flavors moved a little more to the front and for my palate became less satisfying- all in the eyes of the beholder and can change very quickly).

Please don’t discount the strong personalities on this board- in either style or preference as there is no wrong answer. Keep an open mind and taste.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#52 Post by J a y H a c k » May 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm

Strong personalities on this Board? Who you talkin' about?
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#53 Post by Ryan A » May 23rd, 2020, 12:40 pm

Good call Jay, good call. My bad.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#54 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 12:44 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:37 am
OP- i think wine may in some cases differ from the stock market in what you are asking, but most of the time you are probably right. there is not a huge incentive from a purely economic perspective for being on a list if I can walk into Total Wine (or, preferably, a locally run shop) tomorrow and buy the same wine, or even an older vintage of that wine, for the same price. there are some lists that ive said no to for this exact reason

that being said, the comparison to stocks breaks down in some cases with wine for two reasons: 1) that older vintage that you are buying at this year's release price is not the same wine. sometimes that older vintage is priced the same as the new one cuz it was a bad (or at least a not-as-good) year. 2) sometimes people are on lists for reasons that are not purely economics. for example: I am on Bedrock's list. I can buy Bedrock where I live for just about the same price as I buy from the winery. I stay on the list though because I would rather that Morgan and Chris get the entire price of the bottle instead of a bunch of middlemen taking cuts from their profits (in the case of wine, a distributor and a retail shop). There are actually several lists I am on for this reason. I only dabble in stock trading so Im pretty certain there is no stock market equivalent to this?
All very good points and I totally get it. Re Bedrock, I was only referring to $200+ cabs. I also would and do support tons of wineries directly where I could buy the wine from a 3rd party for the same price.
Last edited by MatthewT on May 23rd, 2020, 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#55 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 12:46 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 12:28 pm
Strong personalities on this Board? Who you talkin' about?
Yah, wow, some really angry people! Not exactly sure why. I was not asking anything about "what should I buy" or "can you point me in the right direction". I also never brought up different styles of cab. Was simply about supply/demand/pricing at the $200+ price point for cabs and how people approach these wines from a QPR perspective.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#56 Post by Ryan A » May 23rd, 2020, 1:39 pm

Matthew- The point we are all trying to make is that QPR is relative and not a simple commodity- not a linear black and white equation rather one that changes in value based on the beholder. Just like options or future- its of course a leverage play but also a QPR play, right? If you feel there is value (subjective) it's based on perceived value that you see vs others. If others saw the same value the options would be too expensive.

Example great Napa QPR for me, would be within the first 5-10 years of the wines life. Others on this board would say the opposite as they would appreciate 20-30 year old aged wine which I would not (in general for Napa) pay $1. So the MV Heitz 1974 (example) is a world-class wine and if purchased on release was ~$20 that some years ago probably cost ~$500 or more. A new release is about $200-$250. While others would pay astronomical sums on the secondary market for 1974 (or 67 or other years) I would not pay anything (although I would not pass up the chance to try it- it would just be wasted on me).

Yes we are all nuts and maybe one day you will be (or must be already if you are a trader) too about stupid grape juice.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#57 Post by Mattstolz » May 23rd, 2020, 2:16 pm

MatthewT wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 12:44 pm
Mattstolz wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:37 am
OP- i think wine may in some cases differ from the stock market in what you are asking, but most of the time you are probably right. there is not a huge incentive from a purely economic perspective for being on a list if I can walk into Total Wine (or, preferably, a locally run shop) tomorrow and buy the same wine, or even an older vintage of that wine, for the same price. there are some lists that ive said no to for this exact reason

that being said, the comparison to stocks breaks down in some cases with wine for two reasons: 1) that older vintage that you are buying at this year's release price is not the same wine. sometimes that older vintage is priced the same as the new one cuz it was a bad (or at least a not-as-good) year. 2) sometimes people are on lists for reasons that are not purely economics. for example: I am on Bedrock's list. I can buy Bedrock where I live for just about the same price as I buy from the winery. I stay on the list though because I would rather that Morgan and Chris get the entire price of the bottle instead of a bunch of middlemen taking cuts from their profits (in the case of wine, a distributor and a retail shop). There are actually several lists I am on for this reason. I only dabble in stock trading so Im pretty certain there is no stock market equivalent to this?
All very good points and I totally get it. Re Bedrock, I was only referring to $200+ cabs. I also would and do support tons of wineries directly where I could buy the wine from a 3rd party for the same price.
makes sense. I don't drink very much Napa cab cuz even the ones most people call restrained are too ripe for my tastes, but I couldn't imagine paying that much for a wine that didn't have a pretty huge connection to the winemaker and soil, because part of what I enjoy about wine is how it can transport me to a place and time. so I guess going back to your original question, the relationship is a big part of why I buy in the first place, so also a part of why I would buy a wine enough to be on a list. as I review the lists I'm on, im realizing that they're all wineries where ive had direct interactions with the people who are both in the vines and in the wineries, doing the work to make the final product. I don't think there are a lot of opportunities for that in the cult cabernet game, except for MacDonald. But that is definitely one of the ones that would fit your "buy from list" criteria (the release price to the list is a pretty significant discount over the secondary market price).

FWIW: I actually think the producers that have more connection to the vines tend to also be the ones who price the wines to their lists below secondary value. I can't prove that with any kind of statistics and I may be way off, but the examples I can think it's true.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#58 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 2:24 pm

Ryan, I get that everyone has different tastes. Of course I get that! But that's adjusted for why a wine at a specific high end price point sells out immediately or not on release. My thread was solely about that, nothing more. I don't drink white wine so a $200 bottle for $10 is irrelevant to me. But enough of the world does and it would sell out in seconds! The same goes for all the other examples in this thread about taste. It doesn't apply to my question.

In in the end, if you're rich enough to not care about price, you will buy whatever you like. I get it. I also know that there is *value* to be had at $225 and $25 and just because a wine is readily available at those price points doesn't make it not a good QPR to the purchaser.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#59 Post by Ryan A » May 23rd, 2020, 2:38 pm

Then I think our work here is done. Welcome to nut-land. Maybe we will grab a drink one day. Good luck!
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#60 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 2:46 pm

Cheers
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#61 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 23rd, 2020, 2:52 pm

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 8:01 pm
I’ve dropped off of every mailing list where I can get the wine on the secondary market for the same or less than I paid for it via the winery. I’ve had a few (Kapcsandy Grand Vin and Roberta’s Reserve comes to mind) that even after the RP/JD/AG hundo scores for certain vintages, they are still available cheaper at auction than via the winery mailing list. Maddening.

This one cracks me up. I was at Ovid last year and bought three bottles of the Estate Cab at $325 per. Lol, they are readily available at some select retail joints and the grey market for much less! SUCKAS.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#62 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » May 23rd, 2020, 3:02 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:20 am
I think a bit of confusion in this thread. Yes, I do not want any wine for investment purposes. That doesn't mean I want to overpay for wine! I agree one person's $225 wine might be *worth* $1000 to someone else based on their tastes and net worth, despite it being readily available for $225.

Basically I want fantastic QPR to consume and it's hard for me to see a $225 wine that is readily available to everyone no matter how great it tastes is a great QPR based on it being overpriced vs supply/demand. I have much of less issue with a $50 wine like DICO which of course you can also argue is not priced right given it's readily available for $50. But the QPR is fantastic cause it's $50 not $225.

Does that make any sense?
No, it sounds like you don't have any earthly idea what you yourself actually enjoy sipping on.

If I were you, and if I had a bunch of extra stockbroker shekels to burn, then I'd be tasting & tasting & tasting some more, until I figured out what floated my boat and what didn't. [Which means you've got to set aside a bunch of time & elbow grease & sweat equity for tastings, and that's HARD WORK.]

Beyond working on my tasting chops, I'd also try to remember to have the humility necessary to confess that my tastes are capable of changing over time, and that I might have been wrong in the past concerning my evaluation of a particular wine [or even entire categories of wine].

There are also two excellent data samples which have been posted on this thread:
It used to be back in the day, when most winemakers in Napa did not understand "the formula" (really ripe grapes+lots of French oak to hide any blemishes+small production, good PR perceived shortage building on FOMO) that there were just a few wineries that would blow doors off most of the competition. Ah yes, I remember the 90's. Now the degree of separation between many of these wineries has gotten reaaaaaaly small in the uber ripe lush styles. Many cab based blends are almost impossible to pick out in blind tastings as unique.
I'm seeing this everywhere now, from all cultivars of vinifera being grown in all nations which export to the USA: Perfectly perfect wines, all with exactly the same mouthfeel, the same acidity, the same sugar levels, the same everything. It's probably part & parcel of the larger psycho-sociological phenomenon of Modernity wiping out all remaining vestiges of irascibly non-conforming personality types [which likely is causing a mass convergence of both the personalities of the producers & the personalities of the consumers].
what is most surprising, a re-evaluation of producers who stayed the course and just produced nice, ageable, well balanced wines at a decent price (Corison, Frog's Leap, Flora Springs and I guess you could list Togni and Dunn in the "don't drink until 10 years old" category)
If Cathy Corison is now considered to be "Old School", then all hope is lost.

Her wines are pushing the envelope right out to the very edge of swallowable, and are almost toying with being outright spoofulated.

[I'm not saying her wines are bad, but they are at the far cusp of outstanding - if she goes any further, then she's falling off the deep end.]

PS: "Tasting" wines doesn't mean you have to swallow gallons of them. If you care about your gray matter, then work on small pours and micro-swallows, so that you minimize the damage done by the hangovers the next day.

PPS: If you want to support small businessmen & small businesswomen working exclusively with Cabernet, then contact this board member and this board member to see whether they can sell you something.

PPPS: If you still have big stacks of redundant shekels to burn, then invest in aged bottles and learn what cellars well versus what doesn't.

Look for magnums of 1960s/1970s Chappellets by Philip Togni, or magnums of the 1978 Mondavi Reserve, or, more recently, the 1991 or 1994 Tognis in 750ml.

[And if you have an yuge mountain of redundant stockbroker shekels to incinerate, then look for the 1968 or 1969 or 1974 Heitz Martha's Vineyard, and hope that the bottle is not counterfeit...]
This is highly insensitive and borderline racist. And, it is not the first time you have used this term. I suggest you 1) learn that certain words have bad connotations with some groups, and 2) get off your condescending high horse.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#63 Post by Victor Hong » May 23rd, 2020, 3:17 pm

Would stockbroker pounds, liras, or yuans be better?
Last edited by Victor Hong on May 23rd, 2020, 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#64 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 3:18 pm

I missed that. Yes, that post was so ridiculous, even before I saw the anti-semitism.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#65 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 3:34 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 3:17 pm
Would stockbroker pounds, liras, or yuans be better?
I saw you edited this asking what was wrong with shekels so now I will actually answer as maybe it will help in the future...

It is a stereotype that Jews control Wall Street. Nobody thinks the British or Italians control Wall Street. The idea behind the stereotype is that Jews have all the money and are greedy and control the world, yadda yadda yadda, George Soros etc. Oh I forgot to mention cheap. Jews are super cheap. Did I forget greedy?

I'm Jewish and work on Wall Street! I've heard it all before...and will hear it all again.

If he wanted to not make a Jewish/Wall Street reference he would have said DOLLARS.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#66 Post by Corey N. » May 23rd, 2020, 6:51 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 3:02 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:20 am
I think a bit of confusion in this thread. Yes, I do not want any wine for investment purposes. That doesn't mean I want to overpay for wine! I agree one person's $225 wine might be *worth* $1000 to someone else based on their tastes and net worth, despite it being readily available for $225.

Basically I want fantastic QPR to consume and it's hard for me to see a $225 wine that is readily available to everyone no matter how great it tastes is a great QPR based on it being overpriced vs supply/demand. I have much of less issue with a $50 wine like DICO which of course you can also argue is not priced right given it's readily available for $50. But the QPR is fantastic cause it's $50 not $225.

Does that make any sense?
No, it sounds like you don't have any earthly idea what you yourself actually enjoy sipping on.

If I were you, and if I had a bunch of extra stockbroker shekels to burn, then I'd be tasting & tasting & tasting some more, until I figured out what floated my boat and what didn't. [Which means you've got to set aside a bunch of time & elbow grease & sweat equity for tastings, and that's HARD WORK.]

Beyond working on my tasting chops, I'd also try to remember to have the humility necessary to confess that my tastes are capable of changing over time, and that I might have been wrong in the past concerning my evaluation of a particular wine [or even entire categories of wine].

There are also two excellent data samples which have been posted on this thread:
It used to be back in the day, when most winemakers in Napa did not understand "the formula" (really ripe grapes+lots of French oak to hide any blemishes+small production, good PR perceived shortage building on FOMO) that there were just a few wineries that would blow doors off most of the competition. Ah yes, I remember the 90's. Now the degree of separation between many of these wineries has gotten reaaaaaaly small in the uber ripe lush styles. Many cab based blends are almost impossible to pick out in blind tastings as unique.
I'm seeing this everywhere now, from all cultivars of vinifera being grown in all nations which export to the USA: Perfectly perfect wines, all with exactly the same mouthfeel, the same acidity, the same sugar levels, the same everything. It's probably part & parcel of the larger psycho-sociological phenomenon of Modernity wiping out all remaining vestiges of irascibly non-conforming personality types [which likely is causing a mass convergence of both the personalities of the producers & the personalities of the consumers].
what is most surprising, a re-evaluation of producers who stayed the course and just produced nice, ageable, well balanced wines at a decent price (Corison, Frog's Leap, Flora Springs and I guess you could list Togni and Dunn in the "don't drink until 10 years old" category)
If Cathy Corison is now considered to be "Old School", then all hope is lost.

Her wines are pushing the envelope right out to the very edge of swallowable, and are almost toying with being outright spoofulated.

[I'm not saying her wines are bad, but they are at the far cusp of outstanding - if she goes any further, then she's falling off the deep end.]

PS: "Tasting" wines doesn't mean you have to swallow gallons of them. If you care about your gray matter, then work on small pours and micro-swallows, so that you minimize the damage done by the hangovers the next day.

PPS: If you want to support small businessmen & small businesswomen working exclusively with Cabernet, then contact this board member and this board member to see whether they can sell you something.

PPPS: If you still have big stacks of redundant shekels to burn, then invest in aged bottles and learn what cellars well versus what doesn't.

Look for magnums of 1960s/1970s Chappellets by Philip Togni, or magnums of the 1978 Mondavi Reserve, or, more recently, the 1991 or 1994 Tognis in 750ml.

[And if you have an yuge mountain of redundant stockbroker shekels to incinerate, then look for the 1968 or 1969 or 1974 Heitz Martha's Vineyard, and hope that the bottle is not counterfeit...]
This is highly insensitive and borderline racist. And, it is not the first time you have used this term. I suggest you 1) learn that certain words have bad connotations with some groups, and 2) get off your condescending high horse.
Thanks Bill. My only quibble with your post is that the word “borderline” isn’t necessary.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#67 Post by Markus S » May 23rd, 2020, 8:02 pm

I doubt it is a mystery. People misprice all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why are the big 4 tech companies selling at insane multiples right now? Because people/algorithms are buying them. Same thing for certain wines. About 25 years ago you couldn't give away many RHone wines; now they are priced up the yazoo. So a bit of fashion, a bit of popularity, a panache... People (and companies, wineries, etc.) are far from being the economic beings portrayed in a Samuelson textbook. Ultimately, you will have to buy what you like to drink, whether it cost twenty or a thousand dollars. That means tasting, and - if you get it right - you might understand the economic shades of value that are attached to bottles of pricey fermented grape product.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#68 Post by MatthewT » May 23rd, 2020, 8:27 pm

Markus S wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 8:02 pm
I doubt it is a mystery. People misprice all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why are the big 4 tech companies selling at insane multiples right now? Because people/algorithms are buying them. Same thing for certain wines. About 25 years ago you couldn't give away many RHone wines; now they are priced up the yazoo. So a bit of fashion, a bit of popularity, a panache... People (and companies, wineries, etc.) are far from being the economic beings portrayed in a Samuelson textbook. Ultimately, you will have to buy what you like to drink, whether it cost twenty or a thousand dollars. That means tasting, and - if you get it right - you might understand the economic shades of value that are attached to bottles of pricey fermented grape product.
Nowhere did I say that wine that sells out immediately and sells for 3x in aftermarket is priced "right". All I said was buying wine from a mailing list at $225 when past vintages and current vintages are readily available for $225 seems really odd to me and suggests the wine is overpriced.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#69 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » May 23rd, 2020, 8:59 pm

MatthewT wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 3:34 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 3:17 pm
Would stockbroker pounds, liras, or yuans be better?
I saw you edited this asking what was wrong with shekels so now I will actually answer as maybe it will help in the future...

It is a stereotype that Jews control Wall Street. Nobody thinks the British or Italians control Wall Street. The idea behind the stereotype is that Jews have all the money and are greedy and control the world, yadda yadda yadda, George Soros etc. Oh I forgot to mention cheap. Jews are super cheap. Did I forget greedy?

I'm Jewish and work on Wall Street! I've heard it all before...and will hear it all again.

If he wanted to not make a Jewish/Wall Street reference he would have said DOLLARS.
Yes, Victor doesn’t get it because the post is not anti Asian or noodle slinger.

I truly hope when Victor gets his billion dollar whistle blower payout, he goes away and quits his judgemental bullshit.

Yes, I know about your pending windfall.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#70 Post by Nathan Smyth » May 23rd, 2020, 9:50 pm

Well that certainly explains the utter incomprehensibility & purposelessness of this thread.

Silly me - I legitimately thought this was a thread about wine.

Jesus H Christ, after all these years, I'm still so God-damned naive that I can't see it coming.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#71 Post by Steve Crawford » May 24th, 2020, 2:35 am

Nathan Smyth wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 9:50 pm
Well that certainly explains the utter incomprehensibility & purposelessness of this thread.

Silly me - I legitimately thought this was a thread about wine.

Jesus H Christ, after all these years, I'm still so God-damned naive that I can't see it coming.
when you were like 17-30, did you get laid much?

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#72 Post by Gautier Roussille » May 24th, 2020, 9:50 am

Too bad this discussion went awry. I followed the last few days and I needed time to think about it.
I think many good points have been made. But maybe I can bring in a different idea.
I believe that at this price point, QPR doesn't make sense, it's clearly a marketing price point and you're paying either of two things:

1/ rarity in which case you question doesn't apply (at the beginning), you can't find the wine readily available, and more often than note, these wine are actually much cheaper out of the estate and grey market bring them up to this price point. Actually in the recent past, estates started to bring their price up to grey market level, and now your question applies and you can move to point 2.

2/ reassurance: I believe that 225$ bottle are more destined to ppl who have lots of money and little time: "I want a good bottle of wine, this is expensive hence this is good". That remind me of an article a few years ago in the French press about a famous French actor, they were saying how much he loved wine, naming his favorite wine as proof: Romanée Conti, Cheval blanc, Petrus, etc. Man, you're not a wine lover, you're just very rich and buy the most expensive stuff out there... Anyway, people who have plenty of time and little money (like ppl on fora... [highfive.gif] ) can take hours comparing data and looking for the best QPR (and I don't think 225$ is a sweet spot). If these wine are destined to this kind of people, they should be readily available, because they won't waste time looking for them, and I don't think anyone should be queuing to buy these bottles.

Now a remark, as more and more estate at point 1 drive toward point 2 (this is so obvious with a part of the damn money-gouging new generation of estate owner in Burgundy, go inside a vineyard once in your life instead of passing buy in your Porsche 4x4 folks! [swearing.gif] ) will the estates be able to retrain there attractiveness? If many drop of their lists and nobody buy in retail because it's readily available and they can always buy it "another time", I can see big trouble coming for them. Same with all the "investment wine", there are millions of bottles sleeping in Asia. The day the wine market crash, those guys are doomed. I'm good making affordable wine for drinking, thank you [drinkers.gif]

Note that maybe my comment is more general than just Cali Cab, where point 2 is probably more true than point 1.

PS: if you have access to it, take a look at the French stock market, it's totally discounted right now compared to the US. PM me if you want names...
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#73 Post by MatthewT » May 24th, 2020, 9:52 am

Gautier, great post. I agree with all you said.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#74 Post by HoosJustinG » May 24th, 2020, 10:34 am

Indeed ... I just don’t think $225 is a good sweet spot for QPR from Napa. I think there are lots of good QPR wines in the $50-75 bracket (check $75 cab thread). There are still some good QPR picks in triple digits — some of which are available in stores (Chappellet Pritchard Hill, Dominus, etc) and some of which are only good deals if you’re on the list (Macdonald, Colgin, Scarecrow, etc). In a world with fake wine, high buyers premiums, and unscrupulous people who might try to sell their wine that was treated “less than optimally” (even if by mistake) ... there is also significant value in buying directly from a winery or reputable retail shop and knowing how the wine was treated/stored every step of the way.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#75 Post by Gray G » May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am

Mark Y wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Macdonald. $165. Really compares well to much more expensive stuff.
Not widely available tho.
whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#76 Post by Gray G » May 24th, 2020, 10:48 am

Cary Rosner wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 4:58 am
I don’t drink a lot of Cabernet these days but Spottswoode to me can go up against most of the higher end cults year after year! Macdonald is pretty solid though extremely difficult to find under 2x the release price in the secondary market!
plus one on Spotts, love it! yet passed this year as the family ownership transition has now priced me out, bummer for them, not for me
Last edited by Gray G on May 24th, 2020, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#77 Post by S. Stevenson » May 24th, 2020, 10:52 am

Ryan A wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 1:39 pm
. So the MV Heitz 1974 (example) is a world-class wine and if purchased on release was ~$20 that some years ago probably cost ~$500 or more. A new release is about $200-$250.
FYI: The release price for Martha's '74 was $48, considered high at the time. I bought a case at the winery from Joe Heitz himself (who had a ton of it to sell in his warehouse).
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#78 Post by blarmston » May 24th, 2020, 10:53 am

Lots of folks on this website would get knocked out if they said to a person what they were emboldened to instead type on a keyboard.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#79 Post by Ryan A » May 24th, 2020, 11:03 am

I can’t believe I missed it, but never thought I would see it in a forum like this. Blarm- well said.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#80 Post by Gray G » May 24th, 2020, 11:05 am

blarmston wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:53 am
Lots of folks on this website would get knocked out if they said to a person what they were emboldened to instead type on a keyboard.
true on any blog/bulletin board on any topic
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#81 Post by Bdklein » May 24th, 2020, 11:16 am

Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 11:05 am
blarmston wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:53 am
Lots of folks on this website would get knocked out if they said to a person what they were emboldened to instead type on a keyboard.
true on any blog/bulletin board on any topic
Not me . One of my proudest traits Is I would would never say something behind their back or anonymously or behind a keyboard I wouldn't say to their face . But it sure has gotten me in trouble over the years . Ok , tangent over .
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#82 Post by Mark Y » May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm

Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am
Mark Y wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Macdonald. $165. Really compares well to much more expensive stuff.
Not widely available tho.
whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
Y.e.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#83 Post by MatthewT » May 24th, 2020, 1:16 pm

Also I love how we are even discussing Macdonald since that *CLEARLY* falls outside of the question I posed.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#84 Post by Craig G » May 24th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am
Mark Y wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Macdonald. $165. Really compares well to much more expensive stuff.
Not widely available tho.
whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
It’s also customary to mention that you just played golf with the MacDonalds when you humble brag. Just FYI.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#85 Post by Mark Y » May 24th, 2020, 3:35 pm

Craig G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 2:39 pm
Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am


whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
It’s also customary to mention that you just played golf with the MacDonalds when you humble brag. Just FYI.
hmmm I don't.. I only usually join the Brady/Manning/Woods group..
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#86 Post by Mark Y » May 24th, 2020, 3:37 pm

MatthewT wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 1:16 pm
Also I love how we are even discussing Macdonald since that *CLEARLY* falls outside of the question I posed.
we're not.. i was just laughing at Gray's comment. i clearly didn't read your OP very well, so MacD is irrelevant to ur question. champagne.gif
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#87 Post by Brian Glas » May 24th, 2020, 3:45 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
Yes I thought that was head scratcher as well....

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#88 Post by C Chen » May 24th, 2020, 3:51 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am
Mark Y wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Macdonald. $165. Really compares well to much more expensive stuff.
Not widely available tho.
whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
He also picked this harmless (and useless) thread to emphasize that talking like your online persona would get you knocked out in real life. Much sensitive.
CT: C Chen

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#89 Post by MatthewT » May 24th, 2020, 5:43 pm

C Chen wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 3:51 pm
Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am


whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
He also picked this harmless (and useless) thread to emphasize that talking like your online persona would get you knocked out in real life. Much sensitive.
I think you might have missed the anti-semitism in the middle followed by someone else wondering why it was anti-semitism.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#90 Post by Brian Glas » May 24th, 2020, 5:56 pm

MatthewT wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 5:43 pm
I think you might have missed the anti-semitism in the middle followed by someone else wondering why it was anti-semitism.
I saw that. That didn't come from Mark Y though? I am confused here. The person talking about the Shekels was Nathan. Correct? Yes that was out of line.

I've met Mark Y at a couple of offlines and he seems like a great guy to me.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#91 Post by MatthewT » May 24th, 2020, 6:13 pm

I don't think that comment was remotely directed at Mark Y (I have no idea who Mark is). But would have to ask the person who made it!

Ok this thread has been terrible. Thanks for all your thoughts. Time to lock it up!
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#92 Post by MarkSt » May 24th, 2020, 6:34 pm

MatthewT wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 6:13 pm
I don't think that comment was remotely directed at Mark Y (I have no idea who Mark is). But would have to ask the person who made it!

Ok this thread has been terrible. Thanks for all your thoughts. Time to lock it up!
Agreed. It's time to take your judgmental attitude and go home. Sensitive-100%.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#93 Post by Mark Y » May 24th, 2020, 7:59 pm

Brian Glas wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 5:56 pm
MatthewT wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 5:43 pm
I think you might have missed the anti-semitism in the middle followed by someone else wondering why it was anti-semitism.
I saw that. That didn't come from Mark Y though? I am confused here. The person talking about the Shekels was Nathan. Correct? Yes that was out of line.

I've met Mark Y at a couple of offlines and he seems like a great guy to me.
Awww <heart>. [dance-clap.gif] [dance-clap.gif]

And yah. I’ll stop messing around in an already messy thread. My bad.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#94 Post by Rory K. » May 24th, 2020, 10:37 pm

If you can afford it and enjoy it, then why waste time talking about market valuation? Wine is not a stock, if you treat it like a commodity to be valued and priced as such you won't find much enjoyment out of it, IMHO. I know that wasn't your exact question but I feel the need to mention it. I'm on a number of mailing lists because I like to support the winery, and occasionally they are slightly cheaper than retail, but none of them are competitive on the secondary market. Buying a $500 Napa cab is no better than indulging in some Gucci handbag, if you like it and have the $$$ than why the hell not.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#95 Post by Ron Slye » May 25th, 2020, 9:22 am

MatthewT wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:32 pm
I'm new to this game. And have a hard time tasting the difference between a $100 Cab and a $225 Cab but I haven't had much $225 Cab in my life, to be fair. I work in the stock market and approach this discussion from that perspective. When there is a hot IPO, you can't get allocation to it. And it's underpriced and it opens much higher for a sure thing. Of course, Wine is not much different. Wines with long waiting lists are underpriced and command premiums immediately on the secondary market. If the priced them at market, the wait list would vanish.

My question/debate is this: Any expensive current vintage wine, in the $100+ price point but really $200+, if it's readily available to anyone day 1, and if you can buy older vintages at cost or very close through retail, why would anyone buy this wine day 1? Isn't the market clearly saying it's overpriced? Can't you just wait to see how the wine reviews and buy it years later at near cost or cost? What is the rational besides hoping to get access to something not overpriced aka something that does sell out immediately/has a wait list later in the year?

I've seen a lot of these $200+ Cabs been readily available since I started looking at them.

I am only buying wine for consumption not for investment. But I also don't want to pay inflated prices for wine. I can name you some vineyards that apply to above but you know who they are. There are many. Is it relationships that keep you buying? Is it you feel the value is there based on the taste and the rest is irrelevant?
I think your general premise is right. If the wine does not increase in price, and is readily available, it generally makes more sense to wait to see how people you trust rate it and then make a decision. I can think of some exceptions. First, if you already know you like the wine, and want to keep a vertical going. Second, if you want to make sure that storage is pristine, then getting it early so you control that might be important. Three, if you know you want the wine for whatever reason (which could be my first point about liking it generally) and don't want to spend time assessing reviews. Fourth, if you are risk averse, know you like the wine, and thus don't want to risk it all of a sudden not becoming available.

Although I can definitely succumb to FOMO, I try to resist that more and more. There is such good wine out there. And if you cultivate some friends with the same interest (as we have here in Seattle), then your exposure to different wines, including some hard to get ones, increases.

I should also say that I do not have much experience in the 200 plus Cab world -- or in the 200 plus world generally. But I think the above would still apply.

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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#96 Post by blarmston » May 25th, 2020, 10:05 am

I tend to be willing to pay a slight premium to buy direct from the winery, so point #2 above resonates with me. I’m not willing to pay 20% above the market price on the secondary, assuming it’s readily available through say Vinfolio or even wine.com. But if it’s 5%, then at least I’m reassured knowing that there are less ‘touch points’ between the winery and my cellar, thus less of a likelihood that there was improper storage along the way. Maybe that’s irrational, and in fact it’s in good condition at each point in transit, but I at least feel more comfortable in that regard.

Another point to make is the fact that some wineries, unfortunately, now use shipping as a profit center. Sometimes I will get to check out, see the blatant up charge in two day shipping, and elect to wait until it pops up all over the secondary market where I can use a shipping promo. Cost per bottle tends to drop, and in a material way.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#97 Post by Wes Barton » May 25th, 2020, 10:08 am

One mistake many here have done is buy heavily on ratings, age the wines to the recommended drinking windows, then start drinking them. What could go wrong? High ratings, recommendations from people who seem to know what they're talking about, perceived value. Years down the line, after collecting from many prestigious lists, they discover those aren't the wines that excite them. Or, it could just be far out of proportion of what they really drink.

Invest in exploring. Buy mature bottles to try. Find out which producers turn you on. Figure out how much Napa Cab you really want. Try other wines. You should be able to dig up some old thread where people discuss what percent of their cellars are what wine type, and maybe more importantly, a thread where they discuss what they actually consume.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#98 Post by JLuch » May 25th, 2020, 11:48 am

Wes, the point you made on whether a wine excites you years later is one that I am sure resonates with a lot of QPR hunters and certainly for myself. I found this issue most prevalent when buying off mailing lists where bottles tend to sell out within an hour or two of release. Carter OG, Verdad, Rivers-Marie and the other fairly priced California cabs sell out quickly and if you want to buy them at a fair price, you have to grab them at release and often without the ability to taste the product before purchasing. It’s a gamble that I’ve made plenty of times and so far I have been pleased with the results, but as time goes on I’m sure there will be some stylistic disappointments regardless of how much research I do in advance.

I guess that is the nature of hunting for a good value, which is a bit of a thrill on its own. Ultimately I combat this problem by limiting how many bottles I purchase at release in order to spread the wine budget to more producers and varietals. Although I will admit, I don’t think I have ever spent $200+ on any bottle of wine and I’m not sure I will. I was fortunate enough in a previous job to have very expensive wine at client dinners and can’t say that I ever tasted anything that I thought was worth the extra cost compared to what I have in my cellar.
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#99 Post by Gray G » May 25th, 2020, 3:32 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 12:37 pm
Gray G wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 10:45 am
Mark Y wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 2:40 pm
Macdonald. $165. Really compares well to much more expensive stuff.
Not widely available tho.
whatever, humble brag is so unattractive
[rofl.gif]
Out of this thread, you picked out this post as unattractive?
[rofl.gif]
funny

when Macdonald is artificially priced low to a small list of buyers and then is blown way over 225 on resale, paradigm shift of topic to Mark Y [soap.gif]

hilarious to even mention your purchase on the this topic, loose lips sink ships

cheers
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Re: $225 Cab discussion

#100 Post by Ed Steinway » May 25th, 2020, 5:03 pm

Gray G wrote:
plus one on Spotts, love it! yet passed this year as the family ownership transition has now priced me out, bummer for them, not for me
I am not buying an California Cabs for north of $150 these days, but I do have several back vintages of Spottswoode and love their wines. And Mary Novak was one of the nicest people I have had the pleasure of meeting in the Napa Valley.

Ed

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