TN: premox x 3

so looking forward to wine tonight. Pulled a Ramonet Ruchottes 2004. Shot. Not drinkable. Opened a Guyon Meursault Charmes 2007–had a great bottle recently. Shot. Worse than the Ramonet. So I opened a second. Just as bad. Drinking water now. Delicious. Struck out. 0 for 3. First world problem, I know.

Sorry about your luck. I always turn to something new and reliable after 1 or 2 misses.

No kidding, go red or bubbles.

Sorry to hear Alan, that flat out sucks. Never had a good Ramonet 2004 Ruchottes…0 for 3, so I quit.

ugh ugh ugh

I’m starting to wonder about '04 white Burgundy from the Cote de Beaune. I ascribe to the thought that the vine damage due to heat in '03 caused much of what we see in '04, as the most impacted vines did not have enough time to recover.

I think what manifested as green flavors in the reds (now more brown) has recently shown up as oxidized flavors in the whites. The whites drank really well early on, but I haven’t had much luck recently – albeit limited to a few producers. I have some Blanchot left to check in on sooner then later fingers crossed.

Pull a Walter Scott!

I’m like Alan in that situation. If you have multiples of a white and one is premoxed, might as well open another. If it’s the same, no sense wasting storage space on it.

doh. That is just awful, Alan.

Just making some room for more DRC…

Sorry to hear about the premox.

I can’t profess to tasting ‘04 very broadly but I’ve had some beautiful wines from ‘04 over the last couple years. No serious oxidation among non-premox bottles. Mostly served by others. Coche Meursault, Roulot Meursault Charmes, Carillon PM Perrieres, Bouchard Corton Charlemagne (a couple times with one great and another more tired), Dauvissat Preuses. I like the vintage.

I’m not sure that would make much sense from a chemistry perspective. But if we subscribe to the idea that some of the so-called “green” notes were caused by sulfur from late-season vineyard treatments on the grapes, one might speculate that copper (included in the same treatments), being an oxidizing agent, could be responsible for oxidation in some instances. But, of course, the whole premox phenomenon is obviously complex and multifactorial and cannot really be reduced to a monocausal explanation.

I generally do not age white burg because of premox concerns, but last night I opened the oldest white burgs in my cellar - 2007 Meursaults from JP Fichet (Gruyaches and Tesson). The Tesson was badly oxidized, the Gruyaches was singing.

The cork in the Tesson had a pale, distended, waxy appearance that I (admittedly) unscientifically associate with premox.

That’s interesting. Is residual copper sulfate on the grapes known to be an oxidation agent during the fermentation or aging process? Were late-season treatments pronounced or more prevalent in 2004 for Chardonnay compared to other vintages?

Short answer is yes and yes. For example: Copper - The Australian Wine Research Institute

In 2004, disease pressure was very high so producers had to treat a lot.

Thanks. Googling, I found an interesting article: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b05418. If I had time, it would interesting to consider more rigorously whether excessive copper treatments had an effect on the 2004 reds in addition or as an alternative to other sources of problem, like lady bugs. I may have missed or forgotten the exact discussion of this topic in the numerous threads discussing 2004 reds.

Alan–Thanks for your report. I had sort of forgotten why I have so few white burgs aging in my cellar. Now I remember.

Alan, this sounds like my exact experience with most of my H Boillot: CC 2002- 2/3 oxidized, CM Chenevottes 2005- all 6 oxidized, PM 2005- 4/6 oxidized, Moucheres 2008- only 1/4 oxidized (lucky I guess). At least all my Pucelles 2007 were excellent- all 2/2.

Needless to say I will never buy H Boillot again- EVER

By the way, I emailed the H Boillot domaine but never heard back. They apparently do not care.

Thank you for the commentary. So, are you thinking the mediocre growing season coupled with the interventions are a large part of what went wrong in 2004?

I did too, although my experience is probably even more limited. I guess it was a run of 4 straight shot bottles of Anglada-Deleger Blanchot and Javillier Tete de Murger interrupted by a brilliant '05 Tete de Murger that got me spooked last year. Makes me want to dig out my J-N Gagnard out. That was on fire a few years ago.

I wasn’t really generalizing like that - I was just exploring a possible common chemical explanation for the parallel you pointed out between green reds and (formerly reduced but now) oxidized whites.

2004 was just a very, very challenging vintage and if the choice is between treating later in the season than is ideal on the one hand, or picking totally rotten grapes on the other, I am not going to fault anyone for choosing the former.