de Negoce offer

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Eric Michels
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3851 Post by Eric Michels » September 15th, 2020, 5:13 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:12 pm
Eric Michels wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:09 pm
I bought on the off-chance that it is Merry Edwards (though hard for me to believe that it is).

What David Bruce bottlings match the price point (ignoring that we can't find scores that line up)? MacRostie isn't "north of $60" and I can't find any price/clone/location matches for Lynmar. Also, Merry Edwards seems to fit the "pioneering" label better than Lynmar or MacRostie.
There's roughly a 0.0% chance it's Merry Edwards given that Merry Edwards is a winery that is mentioned in the description. Even if you think he's being tricky, what sort of NDA allows the name of the winery to be listed in the description?
Yep. I see that now. I was focused on the listing description.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3852 Post by Timothy B a l l a r d » September 15th, 2020, 5:37 pm

Emeritus?
https://www.winemag.com/?s=Emeritus&dri ... pe=reviews

http://www.princeofpinot.com/winery/367/

He started Emeritus in June 1999, when he purchased the 115-acre Hallberg Ranch apple orchard near Sebastopol. Another vineyard, Pinot Hill, was added in the Sebastopol Hills later, so total acreage of dry-farmed vineyards in 150. It produces about 8,500 cases of wine annually. The suggested price range is $28-$110 a bottle, with most retailing for $44-$75.

Brice Cutrer Jones got into the wine business when he established Sonoma-Cutrer Vineyards near Windsor in 1973 as a grape grower. He sold it in April 1999 to Brown-Forman Corp. for $125 million. It produced 120,000 cases of wine at the time and specialized in chardonnay. He continued working at the winery until 2001, when he left over disagreements with Brown-Forman over operational structure, Wine Spectator reported at the time.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3853 Post by Troy Stark » September 15th, 2020, 5:38 pm

Scott Watkins wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Iron horse makes Gold ridge Pinots and I think they sell north of $60?
This was my first thought.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3854 Post by R Scott Hughes » September 15th, 2020, 5:39 pm

As much as I try to stay current with this thread, I will admit that I cannot keep up so if this has been discussed already - my apologies.

So, what does the official de Negoce tattoo design look like? Is it built around the 'OG' with tabs for orders you were in for? (1, 2, 12, 27, 40, etc). Or do we have tabs for all of the varietals that we have purchased (since we might run out of real estate to capture all of the offer #'s - at least those of you with puny arms might) - so tabs for Cab, Merlot, Pinot, etc. And do we go all in on Cam and have an image of Cam's face in the center? Maybe roman numerals for the total number of cases ordered? Or even better, for the # of bottles delivered since that would be 12 times more impressive.

I would hire a graphic designer to come up with a design but after spending what I have on the dN wine, I am tapped out for discretionary spending this week.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3855 Post by H. Holt » September 15th, 2020, 5:45 pm

[scratch.gif] ^
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3856 Post by b. c@stner » September 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm

R Scott Hughes wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:39 pm
As much as I try to stay current with this thread, I will admit that I cannot keep up so if this has been discussed already - my apologies.

So, what does the official de Negoce tattoo design look like? Is it built around the 'OG' with tabs for orders you were in for? (1, 2, 12, 27, 40, etc). Or do we have tabs for all of the varietals that we have purchased (since we might run out of real estate to capture all of the offer #'s - at least those of you with puny arms might) - so tabs for Cab, Merlot, Pinot, etc. And do we go all in on Cam and have an image of Cam's face in the center? Maybe roman numerals for the total number of cases ordered? Or even better, for the # of bottles delivered since that would be 12 times more impressive.

I would hire a graphic designer to come up with a design but after spending what I have on the dN wine, I am tapped out for discretionary spending this week.
Too old for a tat...I'm afraid the tabs would be sinking into Cam's face in short order... sigh
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3857 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 6:21 pm

Yep, its DeLoach - Green Valley bottling is not available for sale for 2016 or 2017 vintage. The sold out vintage of 2015 was available at 45. (this is all owned by Jean Claude Boisset - so I could believe that they would let go of 1000 cases. Given then do heavy volume. They would then also be in a position to provide additional tranches.)

Additionally the Estate bottling Pinot is offered at $75 (on sale on their site for $60 - then probably discounted anther 20% would place this in the mid 50’s and then discounted to the magically $16/bottle mark at De Negoce) and the estate vineyard is 17 acres. And stones throw away from the rest of the RRV crew of Dutton, ME, Martinelli and friends.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3858 Post by Tom H o l b r o o k » September 15th, 2020, 6:30 pm

R Scott Hughes wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 5:39 pm
As much as I try to stay current with this thread, I will admit that I cannot keep up so if this has been discussed already - my apologies.

So, what does the official de Negoce tattoo design look like? Is it built around the 'OG' with tabs for orders you were in for? (1, 2, 12, 27, 40, etc). Or do we have tabs for all of the varietals that we have purchased (since we might run out of real estate to capture all of the offer #'s - at least those of you with puny arms might) - so tabs for Cab, Merlot, Pinot, etc. And do we go all in on Cam and have an image of Cam's face in the center? Maybe roman numerals for the total number of cases ordered? Or even better, for the # of bottles delivered since that would be 12 times more impressive.

I would hire a graphic designer to come up with a design but after spending what I have on the dN wine, I am tapped out for discretionary spending this week.
In our gang the tear drops stand for the offers we wanted, but missed, I suppose.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3859 Post by MatthewT » September 15th, 2020, 6:42 pm

MatthewT clearly has to be part of any de Negoce tat

[stirthepothal.gif] [stirthepothal.gif] [stirthepothal.gif]

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3860 Post by b. c@stner » September 15th, 2020, 6:50 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:21 pm
Yep, its DeLoach - Green Valley bottling is not available for sale for 2016 or 2017 vintage. The sold out vintage of 2015 was available at 45. (this is all owned by Jean Claude Boisset - so I could believe that they would let go of 1000 cases. Given then do heavy volume. They would then also be in a position to provide additional tranches.)

Additionally the Estate bottling Pinot is offered at $75 (on sale on their site for $60 - then probably discounted anther 20% would place this in the mid 50’s and then discounted to the magically $16/bottle mark at De Negoce) and the estate vineyard is 17 acres. And stones throw away from the rest of the RRV crew of Dutton, ME, Martinelli and friends.

Can't find Wine Enthusiast reviews that match vintage/score/price point for the 2016/2017 vintages of DeLoach
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3861 Post by Matt N » September 15th, 2020, 6:51 pm

The more I look, the more I think is David Bruce.

The grape varieties seem to be a good match and they are listed in the same order as the note that Matthew T found.

Wine enthusiast notes also mention cola.

2016 scoring matches; 2017 is missing, but given that 2016 score was published in august last year, The Vineyard might be aware of the 2017 score even if it’s not published yet. Could very well see them running behind on scoring with Covid.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3862 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 7:05 pm

b. c@stner wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:50 pm
Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:21 pm
Yep, its DeLoach - Green Valley bottling is not available for sale for 2016 or 2017 vintage. The sold out vintage of 2015 was available at 45. (this is all owned by Jean Claude Boisset - so I could believe that they would let go of 1000 cases. Given then do heavy volume. They would then also be in a position to provide additional tranches.)

Additionally the Estate bottling Pinot is offered at $75 (on sale on their site for $60 - then probably discounted anther 20% would place this in the mid 50’s and then discounted to the magically $16/bottle mark at De Negoce) and the estate vineyard is 17 acres. And stones throw away from the rest of the RRV crew of Dutton, ME, Martinelli and friends.

Can't find Wine Enthusiast reviews that match vintage/score/price point for the 2016/2017 vintages of DeLoach
They are right here... they match up too. Plus the guy who pulled the long list of scores did so with DeLoach for one of the years. I feel settled now.... its DeLoach! champagne.gif

https://www.winemag.com/?s=De%20Loach&v ... pe=reviews

DeLoach GV/RRV/Estate Pinot Noir. Wow, it’s like solving a crossword puzzle. It’s like paying for five bottles and getting 7 for free. Not bad. The 2016 DeLoach RRV bottling was the WE Editors Choice award.

Isn’t RRV usually noted for the cola notes? I thought that was due to the terroir, but I’m not a RRV expert.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3863 Post by DanielP » September 15th, 2020, 7:27 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 7:05 pm
b. c@stner wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:50 pm


Can't find Wine Enthusiast reviews that match vintage/score/price point for the 2016/2017 vintages of DeLoach
They are right here... they match up too. Plus the guy who pulled the long list of scores did so with DeLoach for one of the years. I feel settled now.... its DeLoach! champagne.gif

https://www.winemag.com/?s=De%20Loach&v ... pe=reviews

DeLoach GV/RRV/Estate Pinot Noir. Wow, it’s like solving a crossword puzzle. It’s like paying for five bottles and getting 7 for free. Not bad. The 2016 DeLoach RRV bottling was the WE Editors Choice award.

Isn’t RRV usually noted for the cola notes? I thought that was due to the terroir, but I’m not a RRV expert.
It only makes sense if you mix and match the vineyards to the scores. De Loach also does not report the presence of clones 667 or pommard.

You can look through de Loach tech sheets here:

https://www.boissetcollection.com/trade ... ech-sheets

They have a ton of cuvees so I haven't looked at them all, but the production numbers nor the clones used match up with the offering
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3864 Post by MatthewT » September 15th, 2020, 7:35 pm

If DeLoach rather likely Cameron would have added Organic to the offering. 2016 Estate sounds nothing like this offering.

"The 2016 Estate Pinot Noir is made using all of our eight estate clones 115, 828, Swan, La Tache, Calera and Mt. Eden, 777 and 23."

It's literally the only one that would be "well north of $60" on the website (retail price not wine club, etc.)

https://shop.deloachvineyards.com/SHOP. ... &CAT=DL-PN

I'd wager my identical twins it's not DeLoach.

EDIT: Also, it says 2016 used all of our eight estate clones 115, 828, Swan, La Tache, Calera and Mt. Eden, 777 and 23.

That's missing a bunch of clones in the de Negoce like 667, 838?, and Pommard that the estate doesn't even have planted.
Last edited by MatthewT on September 15th, 2020, 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3865 Post by JonathanG » September 15th, 2020, 8:00 pm

Another solid offering. My group was in for 3 cases. Now MatthewT just needs to dial in his forecasting abilities...
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3866 Post by PeterH » September 15th, 2020, 8:08 pm

Would anyone thinking the offer is for other than David Bruce, please show me a vineyard you are thinking of that is in near proximity to Kanzler, Martinelli, and Merry Edwards.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3867 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 8:16 pm

DanielP wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 7:27 pm
Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 7:05 pm
b. c@stner wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:50 pm


Can't find Wine Enthusiast reviews that match vintage/score/price point for the 2016/2017 vintages of DeLoach
They are right here... they match up too. Plus the guy who pulled the long list of scores did so with DeLoach for one of the years. I feel settled now.... its <b>DeLoach!</b> champagne.gif

https://www.winemag.com/?s=De%20Loach&v ... pe=reviews

DeLoach GV/RRV/Estate Pinot Noir. Wow, it’s like solving a crossword puzzle. It’s like paying for five bottles and getting 7 for free. Not bad. The 2016 DeLoach RRV bottling was the WE Editors Choice award.

Isn’t RRV usually noted for the cola notes? I thought that was due to the terroir, but I’m not a RRV expert.
It only makes sense if you mix and match the vineyards to the scores. De Loach also does not report the presence of clones 667 or pommard.

You can look through DeLoach tech sheets here:

https://www.boissetcollection.com/trade ... ech-sheets

They have a ton of cuvees so I haven't looked at them all, but the production numbers nor the clones used match up with the offering
Mount Eden is a Pommard clone. There are many Pommard clones. At the time that Jean Claude Boisset purchased the 17 acre vineyard from DeLoach owners, he replanted in 2004 and the Estate is known to have clones 23, Calera, 828 (no not the 838 that is listed on the De Négoce site), 115, La Tache, 777, Mount Eden and Swan. Given that 115, 777, and 828 is listed on the site, it is safe to assume that 667 is also there. The widest plantings at that time were 115, 667, 777, and 828 to a lessor extent. Given that Boisset replanted, his background is Burgundy, and this is the RRV, I really doubt that 667 is missing; if it is they would have access to 667 fruit. DeLoach only produces 150,000 cases a year.

(* Note since we know that there is no known source of 838 Pinot Noir clones; as there is only 828 clones. Is it at all possible that 667 was listed in error on the De Négoce site? No one knows here on the Board. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.) Maybe they are on to something with names De Négoce meet <b>DeLoach </b> - perhaps natural business partners.

— for people that are real sticklers - David Bruce doesn’t have two sets of WE scores that match the descriptions and is David Bruce in the neighborhood?

Now I understand why people may feel strongly about their researched answers <b> DeLoach </b> For the win! Yes, I could be wrong, but this definitely checks all the boxes and then some. =)

For an interesting read about Pinot Noir clones planted in the region. https://www.peayvineyards.com/a-rebuttal
Last edited by Juliec on September 15th, 2020, 8:39 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3868 Post by MatthewT » September 15th, 2020, 8:19 pm

PeterH wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 8:08 pm
Would anyone thinking the offer is for other than David Bruce, please show me a vineyard you are thinking of that is in near proximity to Kanzler, Martinelli, and Merry Edwards.
And lists 4 of the 5 clones with the 5th missing is off by 1 number and might be interchangeable and the description says just outside of Sebastopol and has been around for decades and has price points to match it though we have no idea what the winery sells it for and makes 10s of thousands of cases a year.

[winner.gif]

Anyway, it's Screaming Eagle Pinot. And my wife is going to love it.

Also I agree in putting the all in pricing for these things (costs $16 with shipping, tax etc vs $13 list) but to be fair, most wineries charge tax and shipping too!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3869 Post by Eric Michels » September 15th, 2020, 8:20 pm

While David Bruce feels right as a likely source, I can't get past the price differential. I can't find a retail offering north of $46 and the highest priced wine listed for direct sale (under "Crown Jewels") is offered at $55. Of those prior offerings in which we've had higher confidence in our guesses, I've not yet seen one where Cam's reference pricing was such a stretch as would seem to be required for David Bruce.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3870 Post by MatthewT » September 15th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Eric Michels wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 8:20 pm
While David Bruce feels right as a likely source, I can't get past the price differential. I can't find a retail offering north of $46 and the highest priced wine listed for direct sale (under "Crown Jewels") is offered at $55. Of those prior offerings in which we've had higher confidence in our guesses, I've not yet seen one where Cam's reference pricing was such a stretch as would seem to be required for David Bruce.
Website is ancient and hasn't been updated in years and he is quoting winery retail prices if you visited. Best I got. Intellectually honest? I dunno. $13 wine? I can live with it. But yah, "much more than $60" is not mincing words and none of the others fit *at all* with geography, clones, price point, outside of Sebastapol, or the production levels. Someone mentioned a winery that made 300 cases last year of RRV.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3871 Post by DanielP » September 15th, 2020, 8:56 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 8:16 pm
Mount Eden is a Pommard clone. There are many Pommard clones. At the time that Jean Claude Boisset purchased the 17 acre vineyard from DeLoach owners, he replanted in 2004 and the Estate is known to have clones 23, Calera, 828 (no not the 838 that is listed on the De Négoce site), 115, La Tache, 777, Mount Eden and Swan. Given that 115, 777, and 828 is listed on the site, it is safe to assume that 667 is also there. The widest plantings at that time were 115, 667, 777, and 828 to a lessor extent. Given that Boisset replanted, his background is Burgundy, and this is the RRV, I really doubt that 667 is missing; if it is they would have access to 667 fruit. DeLoach only produces 150,000 cases a year.

(* Note since we know that there is no known source of 838 Pinot Noir clones; as there is only 828 clones. Is it at all possible that 667 was listed in error on the De Négoce site? No one knows here on the Board. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.) Maybe they are on to something with names De Négoce meet <b>DeLoach </b> - perhaps natural business partners.

— for people that are real sticklers - David Bruce doesn’t have two sets of WE scores that match the descriptions and is David Bruce in the neighborhood?
So your assumption is that De Loach has provided us with all the clones but decided to omit 667? I don't understand why you seem certain that 667 was omitted there are lots of wines/vineyards that don't have specific clones. If you're saying that there's clone 667 in one of the many vineyards that de Loach sources from, then sure. But can you find a vineyard/cuvee that has ALL of the clones that are listed in the offer? Just look at de Loach's tech sheets. They're quite good about listing clone numbers. This is the same as a winery bottled wine, so you'd have to find a specific cuvee that matches both production and clones. If you are so certain, then you should be able to find a cuvee that fits.

I don't even understand your point on Boisset and his burgundy background as it pertains to RRV and clone 667. What does that have to do with the specific clones that go into this specific bottling?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3872 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm

DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3873 Post by Nate Simon » September 15th, 2020, 9:55 pm

Y’all need a real hobby.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3874 Post by PeterH » September 15th, 2020, 10:00 pm

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm
DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
It looks to me at a cursory glance that only one or two clones are present in any one of their vineyards. The de Negoce description implies that the wine comes from a single vineyard of approx. 20 acres. If DeLoach, which one?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3875 Post by Juliec » September 15th, 2020, 10:55 pm

PeterH wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 10:00 pm
Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm
DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017. https://www.winemag.com/?s=De%20Loach&v ... pe=reviews

✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
It looks to me at a cursory glance that only one or two clones are present in any one of their vineyards. The de Negoce description implies that the wine comes from a single vineyard of approx. 20 acres. If DeLoach, which one?
✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 3 out of 5 clones, through their partnership vineyard BCD, Starkey they have the 4th and 5th clones.

✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 4 of the 5 clones: 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyards
Then The BCD vineyard (named after the original partnership of Balletto, Carleson and DeLoach) has 667. The 5th clone.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777,; 667 [through their BCD Vineyard partnership https://winespies.com/sales/1445-ballet ... pinot-noir. ] and Pommard thorough Starkey (Hill) Vineyard.
✓ DeLoach O.F.S.* [this retails for $40 =) Has all the clones 828, 115, 777, Pommard, and 667
- it’s components - DeLoach Estate PN, Engarde Starkey Hill PN, and Balletto BCD PN are sold at their wineries for over $50.

* “We selected fruit from some of the finest vineyards in the Russian River Valley, including our own Estate Vineyard, Starkey (Hill) Vineyard and BCD Vineyard.“
** As a result of this research, may pick up En Garde Starkey Hill RRV PN. (Clone 828 and Pommard) http://www.princeofpinot.com/winery/1853/

NOW this case is closed! Location ✓, Scores ✓, Price ✓, Case Volume ✓, Clones all 5 accounted for ✓, One Bottling with all the 5 clones ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓. No more wasted time proving not such important information to the WWW. pileon

X One nit that may rule it out - it does not look like a hilltop from the online photos.
Last edited by Juliec on September 16th, 2020, 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3876 Post by JonathanG » September 15th, 2020, 11:15 pm

Im with julie if for no other reason than i like the triple check at the end of the post.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3877 Post by Peter C. » September 16th, 2020, 7:18 am

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm
DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
AFAIK, and I'm certainly not an expert on Cali Pinot, Deloach is not a pioneer of Cali Pinot. That was part of Cam's description.

I know on their About Us section they claim to be a pioneering pinot producer though, so there's that.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3878 Post by Timothy B a l l a r d » September 16th, 2020, 7:25 am

Emeritus:
Hallberg vineyard neighbors to Dutton, Martinelli, Merry Edwards. Goldberg soils.

Owner:
Our Founding Team
Brice founded Sonoma–Cutrer Vineyards in 1972. Focusing exclusively on Chardonnay, Brice was an early pioneer in the white wine boom that quickly reshaped the American wine landscape.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3879 Post by Toby P » September 16th, 2020, 7:35 am

Kind of amazed given all the details that there isn't a guess yet I would ascribe >50% probability to. Wonder if there was a miscommunication on the WE scores too...the email makes it sound like the winery had those scores, the website indicates it's a specific wine? Anyways I passed for storage reasons, bar is so high now and I know I'll get sucked into some more cabs / WA wines when they come (not to mention one of the Cab Francs on the way)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3880 Post by Eric White » September 16th, 2020, 8:04 am

I expanded my Wine Enthusiast search on price, and I think I have another contender...

I liked the suggestion of DeLoach, but there is no combination of Wine Enthusiast score and price that fits, so I really don't think that's it. However, what about:
Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 7.56.08 AM.png
From the 2015 vintage data sheet:
"Planted in 2007 by renowned winegrower Charlie Chenoweth, and situated a mere 8 miles from the Pacific Ocean, Bootlegger’s Hill is a very cool site, with shallow Goldridge soils that produce low yields of small-berried clusters. "

and from Chenoweth's website, the vineyard is planted to:
"Clones: 115, 667, Pommard, 37, Calera, Elite, CC, 23, 459, Hyde Wente and Wente Select, all on a mix of 420a and 101-14 rootstock"

and IIRC, P&H has a pretty large case production, could likely support the volume we're talking about.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3881 Post by MatthewT » September 16th, 2020, 8:10 am

I am shocked how many come close given how specific his clues are. Up till now we have never had a lot that's gotten more than two top contenders and for vast majority it's just been one.

Fun stuff.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3882 Post by Chris Johnson » September 16th, 2020, 9:03 am

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm
DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
Mt Eden = Pommard? Never heard that one. They are pretty different with regards to cluster morphology and leaf patterns. At least in my vineyard, Eden is a much lower producer and has more dark berry than Pommard.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3883 Post by b. c@stner » September 16th, 2020, 9:12 am

Eric White wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:04 am
I expanded my Wine Enthusiast search on price, and I think I have another contender...

I liked the suggestion of DeLoach, but there is no combination of Wine Enthusiast score and price that fits, so I really don't think that's it. However, what about:
Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 7.56.08 AM.png

From the 2015 vintage data sheet:
"Planted in 2007 by renowned winegrower Charlie Chenoweth, and situated a mere 8 miles from the Pacific Ocean, Bootlegger’s Hill is a very cool site, with shallow Goldridge soils that produce low yields of small-berried clusters. "

and from Chenoweth's website, the vineyard is planted to:
"Clones: 115, 667, Pommard, 37, Calera, Elite, CC, 23, 459, Hyde Wente and Wente Select, all on a mix of 420a and 101-14 rootstock"

and IIRC, P&H has a pretty large case production, could likely support the volume we're talking about.
The offer mentions 25% new oak. The 2016 P&H Bootlegger's saw 60% new. Not sure about the 2017.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3884 Post by Toby P » September 16th, 2020, 9:42 am

b. c@stner wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:12 am
Eric White wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:04 am
I expanded my Wine Enthusiast search on price, and I think I have another contender...

I liked the suggestion of DeLoach, but there is no combination of Wine Enthusiast score and price that fits, so I really don't think that's it. However, what about:
Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 7.56.08 AM.png

From the 2015 vintage data sheet:
"Planted in 2007 by renowned winegrower Charlie Chenoweth, and situated a mere 8 miles from the Pacific Ocean, Bootlegger’s Hill is a very cool site, with shallow Goldridge soils that produce low yields of small-berried clusters. "

and from Chenoweth's website, the vineyard is planted to:
"Clones: 115, 667, Pommard, 37, Calera, Elite, CC, 23, 459, Hyde Wente and Wente Select, all on a mix of 420a and 101-14 rootstock"

and IIRC, P&H has a pretty large case production, could likely support the volume we're talking about.
The offer mentions 25% new oak. The 2016 P&H Bootlegger's saw 60% new. Not sure about the 2017.
Bootlegger bottling itself is also a very small production
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3885 Post by PeterH » September 16th, 2020, 9:52 am

Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 10:55 pm
PeterH wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 10:00 pm
Juliec wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 9:22 pm
DeLoach - do I really care, no. Am I honest about the clues and how they are the closest match to date. Yes.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
✓ Access to 667 clone from purchased fruit that DeLoach regularly purchases. (Durrell Vineyard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyard/
It looks to me at a cursory glance that only one or two clones are present in any one of their vineyards. The de Negoce description implies that the wine comes from a single vineyard of approx. 20 acres. If DeLoach, which one?
✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 4 out of 5 clones, through their partnership vineyard BCD, they have the 5th clone.

✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 4 of the 5 clones: 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard)
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyards
Then The BCD vineyard (named after the original partnership of Balletto, Carleson and DeLoach) has 667. The 5th clone.

✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777, and Mt Eden (=Pommard); and 667 [through their BCD Vineyard partnership https://winespies.com/sales/1445-ballet ... pinot-noir. ]
✓ DeLoach O.F.S.* [this retails for $40 =) Has all the clones 828, 115, 777, Pommard, and 667
- it’s components - DeLoach Estate PN, Engarde Starkey Hill PN, and Balletto BCD PN are sold at their wineries for over $50.

* “We selected fruit from some of the finest vineyards in the Russian River Valley, including our own Estate Vineyard, Starkey (Hill) Vineyard and BCD Vineyard.“
** As a result of this research, may pick up En Garde Starkey Hill RRV PN. (Clone 828 and Pommard) http://www.princeofpinot.com/winery/1853/

NOW this case is closed! Location ✓, Scores ✓, Price ✓, Case Volume ✓, Clones all 5 accounted for ✓, One Bottling with all the 5 clones ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓. No more wasted time proving not such important information to the WWW. pileon
I hate to be a pest, but their Estate vineyard is not really close to Kanzler etc., and the soil type doesn't match.

Also- too large, and not hilltop. As mentioned above, no WE match.
Last edited by PeterH on September 16th, 2020, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3886 Post by PeterH » September 16th, 2020, 10:35 am

Toby P wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:42 am
b. c@stner wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:12 am
Eric White wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:04 am
I expanded my Wine Enthusiast search on price, and I think I have another contender...

I liked the suggestion of DeLoach, but there is no combination of Wine Enthusiast score and price that fits, so I really don't think that's it. However, what about:
Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 7.56.08 AM.png

From the 2015 vintage data sheet:
"Planted in 2007 by renowned winegrower Charlie Chenoweth, and situated a mere 8 miles from the Pacific Ocean, Bootlegger’s Hill is a very cool site, with shallow Goldridge soils that produce low yields of small-berried clusters. "

and from Chenoweth's website, the vineyard is planted to:
"Clones: 115, 667, Pommard, 37, Calera, Elite, CC, 23, 459, Hyde Wente and Wente Select, all on a mix of 420a and 101-14 rootstock"

and IIRC, P&H has a pretty large case production, could likely support the volume we're talking about.
The offer mentions 25% new oak. The 2016 P&H Bootlegger's saw 60% new. Not sure about the 2017.
Bootlegger bottling itself is also a very small production
Location doesn't match.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3887 Post by b. c@stner » September 16th, 2020, 10:49 am

Ok, I'm in the camp that the 2017 hasn't been published yet. There are just a few north of $60 pinots with a 93 point 2016 and 92 point 2017 and none of the locations or specs match. And it's not that hard to search those parameters so I'm thinking if both were published it would have been too easy.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3888 Post by Timothy B a l l a r d » September 16th, 2020, 10:59 am


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Re: de Negoce offer

#3889 Post by PeterH » September 16th, 2020, 11:04 am

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3890 Post by john mccarty » September 16th, 2020, 11:10 am

MatthewT wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:10 am
I am shocked how many come close given how specific his clues are. Up till now we have never had a lot that's gotten more than two top contenders and for vast majority it's just been one.

Fun stuff.
another that comes close, and hasn't been mentioned, is Gary Farrell. The best fit there is McDonald Mountain, but
1) the WE score for 2017 is too high (94)
2) flavor profile, soil and clones match, except McDonald Mtn also includes "Elite."

In view of this, and the previously mentioned mismatches of DeLoach, I'd go with David Bruce, as the only thing missing there seems to be the 2017 score (which may not yet be published).

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3891 Post by Eric Michels » September 16th, 2020, 11:10 am

The only wine from Hallberg Ranch that would seem to fit the price point is the Wesley's Reserve. It would seem odd to bulk what they describe as the best parcels from a 110 acres site.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3892 Post by Toby P » September 16th, 2020, 11:23 am

john mccarty wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:10 am
MatthewT wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 8:10 am
I am shocked how many come close given how specific his clues are. Up till now we have never had a lot that's gotten more than two top contenders and for vast majority it's just been one.

Fun stuff.
another that comes close, and hasn't been mentioned, is Gary Farrell. The best fit there is McDonald Mountain, but
1) the WE score for 2017 is too high (94)
2) flavor profile, soil and clones match, except McDonald Mtn also includes "Elite."

In view of this, and the previously mentioned mismatches of DeLoach, I'd go with David Bruce, as the only thing missing there seems to be the 2017 score (which may not yet be published).
We also don't have the price for David Bruce. All their wines seem to retail well under $60, so unless it's one of those situations where the price at the winery is wildly inflated it wouldn't fit.

Side note: why is the David Bruce website from like 1998? Aren't they a massive operation?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3893 Post by Juliec » September 16th, 2020, 11:35 am

PeterH wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 9:52 am
PeterH wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 10:00 pm

It looks to me at a cursory glance that only one or two clones are present in any one of their vineyards. The de Negoce description implies that the wine comes from a single vineyard of approx. 20 acres. If DeLoach, which one?
I hate to be a pest, but their Estate vineyard is not really close to Kanzler etc., and the soil type doesn't match.
Also- too large, and not hilltop. As mentioned above, no WE match.
Peter - have you checked the distance from Kanzler to Martinelli, Dutton, and Merry Edwards? The last three are close together and DeLoach is on Olivet Road. Close to Martinelli, Dutton and Merry Edwards they are pretty equa-distant to Kanzler which is very odd to even include here. Maybe its a clue. (perhaps I don’t know my Pinot’s :(
(Chris and Daniel good points about the Mount Eden - Pommard clone is there and reference is now corrected.)
✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 3 out of 5 clones, through their partnership vineyard BCD, Starkey they have the 4th and 5th clones.
✓ DeLoach Estate Vineyard has 3 of the 5 clones: 828, 115, and 777.
https://deloachvineyards.com/vineyard-c ... -vineyards
Then The BCD vineyard (named after the original partnership of Balletto, Carleson and DeLoach) has 667 And Starkey (Hill) Vineyard has the Pommard. The 4th and 5th clones.
✓ Location - RRV and neighborhood of Dutton vineyards, Martinelli, Merry Edwards (Kanzler is about the same distance way from Martinelli and Merry Edwards and Duttons)
✓ WE scores 2016 and 2017 https://www.winemag.com/?s=De%20Loach&v ... pe=reviews
✓ Case volumes support selling off 1000 cases of bulk pinot noir. (DeLoach produces over 150k cases)
✓ Price of Pinots in the neighborhood of $50 and above at winery for 2017 vintage ($60-75)
✓ Clones listed as in wine grown in Estate Vineyard 828, 115, 777,; 667 [through their BCD Vineyard partnership https://winespies.com/sales/1445-ballet ... pinot-noir. ] and Pommard thorough Starkey (Hill) Vineyard.
✓ DeLoach O.F.S.* [this retails for $40 =) Has all the clones 828, 115, 777, Pommard, and 667
- it’s components - DeLoach Estate PN, Engarde Starkey Hill PN, and Balletto BCD PN are sold at their wineries for over $50.
✓ Pioneer - a person (Cecil De Loach) who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area [Russian River Valley in 1970 and 1973 purchased the 17 acre vineyard . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_O._De_Loach_Jr.

* “We selected fruit from some of the finest vineyards in the Russian River Valley, including our own Estate Vineyard, Starkey (Hill) Vineyard and BCD Vineyard.“
** As a result of this research, may pick up En Garde Starkey Hill RRV PN. (Clone 828 and Pommard) http://www.princeofpinot.com/winery/1853/

NOW this case is closed! Location ✓, Scores ✓, Price ✓, Case Volume ✓, Clones all 5 accounted for ✓, One Bottling with all the 5 clones ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓. No more wasted time proving not such important information to the WWW. pileon

X One nit that may rule it out - it does not look like a hilltop from the online photos. Could it be their Chalk Hill? Which is on a Hilltop Location (owned by the De Loach Family? ). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3894 Post by ChrisWolff » September 16th, 2020, 11:41 am

can someone post the list of 'to be released' wines again for me please?

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3895 Post by Eric Michels » September 16th, 2020, 11:46 am

Kanzler is effectively the next vineyard south of Martinelli and Merry Edwards (Meredith). Dutton is slightly north. Kanzler, Martinelli, and Merry Edwards are an awfully tight circle with only a handful of direct neighbors. Dutton Ranch opens up the circle a bit.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3896 Post by mattcitrang » September 16th, 2020, 11:53 am

ChrisWolff wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:41 am
can someone post the list of 'to be released' wines again for me please?
The search function is your friend.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3897 Post by john mccarty » September 16th, 2020, 12:31 pm

ChrisWolff wrote:
September 16th, 2020, 11:41 am
can someone post the list of 'to be released' wines again for me please?
41 cab sauvignon
49 TBD
50 TBD
51 cab franc
52 cab franc
53 merlot
54 cab sauvignon
55 TBD
56 TBD
57 TBD
58 TBD
59 TBD
60 TBD
61 TBD
62 chardonnay
Also, the TBD's on this list is expected to include at least one more chardonnay, and MAY include some Washington wines...

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3898 Post by MatthewT » September 16th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Ladies, Gentleman, and trolls:

We have entered...

The #deNegoceZone

I don't put odds higher than 50% but we could get back to back offers today.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3899 Post by timmy roos » September 16th, 2020, 2:00 pm

The last email went to my junk mail as well. Strange as no other offer has before and I have ordered multiple times
Things are getting funny these day

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3900 Post by ScottieB » September 16th, 2020, 3:58 pm

Any thoughts from anyone on Wine Access” recent Editorial offer? Looks like juice from Caldwell Vineyards.
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