TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

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Ramon C
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#51 Post by Ramon C » May 16th, 2020, 5:13 am

JWalter wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 6:57 pm
Haha I misread that as stating that Baudry was not comparable to Breton. The Rougeard makes sense and explanation I agree with!
Since you brought it up and to get a sense of Breton wines and with my lesser experience with them, can you differentiate/compare Baudry and Breton?

I know that Breton dabbles beyond Chinon.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#52 Post by Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » May 19th, 2020, 4:53 pm

Ramon C wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 11:35 am
JWalter wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 6:56 pm
Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:29 pm


I’m a huge baudry guy...but the two aren’t comparable.
In what way?

I'm not Faryan, but am obviously about to chime in. Also have to add that I know that I'm at least as huge a Baudry guy as Faryan.

I've found Rougeard wines, owned/drank sporadic vintages since 1995 (mostly Le Poyeux) and the last being the 2008, to be exceptional in texture and purity. The levels of structural complexities offered and seamlessly-knitted together in Rougeard wines are something that I've not had with any Baudry wines that I've sampled to date.

Granted that I can't recall having had Baudry earlier than 1999 vintage, but I've found aged/matured Rougeard to be crazy good and the experiences are at levels that I've not had in other Loire-based cab franc of the same age, most of which are already good in their own rights.

Just my $0.02.


edited: not a difference maker in the light of the question, but will add anyway that Baudry is Chinon and Rougeard is Saumur.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#53 Post by Mike Evans » May 19th, 2020, 5:13 pm

Ramon C wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 5:13 am
JWalter wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 6:57 pm
Haha I misread that as stating that Baudry was not comparable to Breton. The Rougeard makes sense and explanation I agree with!
Since you brought it up and to get a sense of Breton wines and with my lesser experience with them, can you differentiate/compare Baudry and Breton?

I know that Breton dabbles beyond Chinon.
I would call Breton a Bourgeuil producer who dabbles in Chinon. I have little experience with their wines after they jumped from LDM to Kermit, but the 1995s through 2002s have shown great nuance and class on a par with Baudry Grezeaux from those years, which I’ve generally preferred to Croix Boissée.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#54 Post by Ramon C » May 20th, 2020, 12:21 am

Mike Evans wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 5:13 pm
Ramon C wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 5:13 am
JWalter wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 6:57 pm
Haha I misread that as stating that Baudry was not comparable to Breton. The Rougeard makes sense and explanation I agree with!
Since you brought it up and to get a sense of Breton wines and with my lesser experience with them, can you differentiate/compare Baudry and Breton?

I know that Breton dabbles beyond Chinon.
I would call Breton a Bourgeuil producer who dabbles in Chinon. I have little experience with their wines after they jumped from LDM to Kermit, but the 1995s through 2002s have shown great nuance and class on a par with Baudry Grezeaux from those years, which I’ve generally preferred to Croix Boissée.
Thanks for the info.

LDM?
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#55 Post by Mike Evans » May 20th, 2020, 6:02 am

Ramon C wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 12:21 am
Mike Evans wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 5:13 pm
Ramon C wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 5:13 am


Since you brought it up and to get a sense of Breton wines and with my lesser experience with them, can you differentiate/compare Baudry and Breton?

I know that Breton dabbles beyond Chinon.
I would call Breton a Bourgeuil producer who dabbles in Chinon. I have little experience with their wines after they jumped from LDM to Kermit, but the 1995s through 2002s have shown great nuance and class on a par with Baudry Grezeaux from those years, which I’ve generally preferred to Croix Boissée.
Thanks for the info.

LDM?
Sorry, LDM is Louis Dressner McKenna, who originally imported the Breton wines until they switched to Kermit Lynch, which I’ve long believed to be a mistake.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#56 Post by Marshall Manning » May 20th, 2020, 10:19 am

Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 6:02 am
Sorry, LDM is Louis Dressner McKenna, who originally imported the Breton wines until they switched to Kermit Lynch, which I’ve long believed to be a mistake.
Mike, is this just because of pricing? I believe KL has a lot better nationwide distribution than LDM, but I'm guessing there. I guess we'd have to ask Pierre and Catherine how they view it?
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#57 Post by Mike Evans » May 20th, 2020, 3:04 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 10:19 am
Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 6:02 am
Sorry, LDM is Louis Dressner McKenna, who originally imported the Breton wines until they switched to Kermit Lynch, which I’ve long believed to be a mistake.
Mike, is this just because of pricing? I believe KL has a lot better nationwide distribution than LDM, but I'm guessing there. I guess we'd have to ask Pierre and Catherine how they view it?
Marshall, while pricing always seems to be an issue from the consumer’s perspective when a producer goes to Kermit, I think it turned out to be a mistake for Breton for a few reasons. First, I think their reputation doesn’t seem to be as strong as it used to be, particularly when compared to Baudry and Clos Rougeard which used to be part of the same portfolio. I’m also not convinced that Kermit’s wider distribution serves Breton any better than LDM’s, as their wines don’t seem to have much greater availability.

All that said, my relationship with LDM goes back more than 20 years, so I have a definite bias. I’ve also heard from several people that Pierre and Catherine have acknowledged that leaving LDM was a mistake, but I can’t confirm the accuracy of those reports.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#58 Post by Marshall Manning » May 20th, 2020, 7:16 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 3:04 pm
First, I think their reputation doesn’t seem to be as strong as it used to be, particularly when compared to Baudry and Clos Rougeard which used to be part of the same portfolio. I’m also not convinced that Kermit’s wider distribution serves Breton any better than LDM’s, as their wines don’t seem to have much greater availability.
Thanks for the thoughts Mike. Is their reputation dependent on the importer, though, or just trends/fads in the wine biz? While I used to sell the Breton wines, it was always tough to sell most Loire Valley reds in Oregon, so I wonder if it's that way across the country (with the exception of the major markets) and if it's only a small percentage of geeks who even care about the wines overall?
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#59 Post by Mike Evans » May 20th, 2020, 9:36 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 7:16 pm
Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 3:04 pm
First, I think their reputation doesn’t seem to be as strong as it used to be, particularly when compared to Baudry and Clos Rougeard which used to be part of the same portfolio. I’m also not convinced that Kermit’s wider distribution serves Breton any better than LDM’s, as their wines don’t seem to have much greater availability.
Thanks for the thoughts Mike. Is their reputation dependent on the importer, though, or just trends/fads in the wine biz? While I used to sell the Breton wines, it was always tough to sell most Loire Valley reds in Oregon, so I wonder if it's that way across the country (with the exception of the major markets) and if it's only a small percentage of geeks who even care about the wines overall?
I’m not sure about the broader market, but Breton used to be every bit as well-regarded as Baudry in Loire geek circles and deserved that reputation. Now, even on this forum, references to Baudry are frequent and positive while references to Breton are comparatively rare. I think the importers have a good bit of responsibility for both.

Dressner did a good job of promoting both Breton and Baudry and brought members of both families over fairly often for events. The Dressner tours never made it to Atlanta, but as a Loire geek I was always aware of them and the vintners who were there, particularly the NY ones. Kermit may be bringing the Bretons over as well, but I can’t recall seeing any references to events with them.

I have quite a bit of 1996 to 2002 Bretons left and most that I’ve opened in the past several years have been exceptional. On the other hand, I have very few recent vintages while I have a lot of recent Baudry. One important reason for the difference is that I haven’t seen many discussions about recent Bretons that would encourage me to seek them out. I also haven’t seen many offered at retail in comparison to Baudry and the few I’ve seen have been at prices that further quenched my enthusiasm, both of which can be laid at least partially at Kermit’s feet.

It may be more specific to my market, but my experience is that when a producer moves to Kermit, their wines become harder to find and the prices go up, often to the point that I’m no longer willing to buy them. I hate that one of my favorite producers got Kermitified. Here are some reasons why:

1996 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Les Perrières - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (8/16/2019)
Exhibiting terrific complexity and grace, with nuanced dark fruit, spice, and a soupçon of bell pepper, supported by fine tannin and well-integrated acidity, it is exceptional now but with no sign of fading. (94 pts.)

1998 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (4/18/2019)
Corked. NR (flawed)

2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Nuits d'Ivresse - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (9/27/2018)
A delightful melange of dark fruit and savory earthy and poblano peppery notes, it represents what I love about Loire Cabernet Franc, while it is drinking extremely well now, it is in no danger of dying. (93 pts.)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (6/10/2017)
BeaujoLoire Blowout (St. Cecilia, Atlanta, GA): More fruit driven and intense than the Filliatreau, though not quite as complex, with blackberry and a hint of green pepper. Amazing. (94 pts.)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/7/2015)
Fairly sweet cherry fruit with a little leather but minimal green pepper, it is pretty much at peak. (91 pts.)

1999 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (1/4/2014)
Breton, Texier, and Puzelat: An initial burst of brett blew off quickly, leaving well-knit tart red fruit, leather, and a little minerality as constants, while over few hours a pleasant herbaceousness flittered in and out. It's in a nice place right now, and would be dangerously easy to drink if the 11.5% alcohol shown on the label was much higher.

1996 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (9/30/2012)
Older Loires: Corked. NR (flawed)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (9/30/2012)
Older Loires: Ripe blackberry fruit sits on a pleasing earthy/leathery foundation that keeps it from getting out of hand, while a touch of green pepper adds more complexity without being unpleasant. It is drinking well now, but I'm in no great hurry to finish my remaining bottles.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#60 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 20th, 2020, 10:39 pm

To add to Mike’s discussion with my own view:

At least in NY, which I think was a very important market for both Baudry and Breton in the ‘90s and 2000s, both producers were featured in the Louis/Dressner portfolio. Both considered by many of us to be on the same level. And Joe was a showman. He promoted the wines personally and forcefully. He was also helped in this by the retail community, such as David Lillie and Robert Callahan at Garnet and then CSW, Jeff Connell and successors at Astor (including Greg Dal Piaz), and others. And both producers did travel to New York and the US regularly for many years as part of Joe’s promotional efforts and as a celebration of the good work his growers were doing - Matthieu and Bernard, Pierre and Catherine. Joe also personally traveled around the country to promote these wines.

In this context, Breton’s switch from LDM to Kermit was around the time Joe got sick, and the switch was taken personally and internalized by many of us who had supported Joe, Denyse, and Kevin. There were details that were not pretty. Suffice it to say, it left a bad taste in the mouths of many wine geek supporters. I can’t know if these feelings were very widespread, but such Loire Cab Francs are relatively small production wines that weren’t as popular 10 years ago as they are today.

After the switch I never bought a single bottle of Breton at retail. (Now, I have only 96, 02, 04, and 05 remaining in the cellar.). I know many others in the NYC wine community who felt and acted the same. I can’t know for sure, but I believe the abandonment by previously regular supporters was an unexpected market setback for the Bretons, exacerbated by Kermit’s pricing and different approach to wine promotion and marketing. In my mind the Bretons have never regained the status they had achieved before the switch. And I personally don’t know the wines because I won’t buy them.
Last edited by Jayson Cohen on May 21st, 2020, 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#61 Post by Ramon C » May 21st, 2020, 5:36 am

Good information and insights on the historical change in distribution of Breton wines. Thanks.

Highlights why I for one, as big a Loire drinker that I am here in NYC, have not been that exposed to Breton's wines these days, at least not in the same way as Baudry's.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#62 Post by Nathan V. » May 21st, 2020, 6:21 am

Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:29 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 11:50 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 10:29 am
Had the 2010 Boisee rouge recently. It was in fact a surprisingly elegant and balanced Cabernet Franc beginning to show an existing potential. Looking very much forward to following this the next 10-20 years
It reminded me of old school St Emillion Cab Franc blend
IMO, the '10 is arguably the pinnacle of Cabernet Franc. Of note, I've still not tried a Rougeard.
I’m a huge baudry guy...but the two aren’t comparable.
I think that Rougeard Poyeux juxtaposed with Baudry Croix Boissée makes for an interesting comparison. I poured the 2005 of each blind to the travelling LDM show which included Matthieu as well as ITB folks a few years back and while both Matthieu and I could tell which was which (they were decanted into empty Bordeaux bottles and numbered by the wine director at Rue Cler prior to serving) there wasn't a qualitative difference, more of a signature difference. So, I do think it was a between cultivar apple comparison rather than to oranges.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#63 Post by Marshall Manning » May 21st, 2020, 9:21 am

Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 9:36 pm

I have quite a bit of 1996 to 2002 Bretons left and most that I’ve opened in the past several years have been exceptional. On the other hand, I have very few recent vintages while I have a lot of recent Baudry. One important reason for the difference is that I haven’t seen many discussions about recent Bretons that would encourage me to seek them out. I also haven’t seen many offered at retail in comparison to Baudry and the few I’ve seen have been at prices that further quenched my enthusiasm, both of which can be laid at least partially at Kermit’s feet.

It may be more specific to my market, but my experience is that when a producer moves to Kermit, their wines become harder to find and the prices go up, often to the point that I’m no longer willing to buy them. I hate that one of my favorite producers got Kermitified.
Maybe I buy wine differently, but if I had as many positive data points as you do with Breton I wouldn't stop buying them just because they aren't talked about on the board as much. If you really like the wines, and can get them (Wine Searcher lists a LOT of them around the US under $40), why not continue to buy them? Above they were mentioned along with Rougeard. While I've only had that wine a couple of times, and not recently, I think that's in a different league. But then again you could buy a case of Breton for what you'd pay for one bottle of Rougeard.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#64 Post by Marshall Manning » May 21st, 2020, 9:29 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 10:39 pm
In this context, Breton’s switch from LDM to Kermit was around the time Joe got sick, and the switch was taken personally and internalized by many of us who had supported Joe, Denyse, and Kevin. There were details that were not pretty. Suffice it to say, it left a bad taste in the mouths of many wine geek supporters. I can’t know if these feelings were very widespread, but such Loire Cab Francs are relatively small production wines that weren’t as popular 10 years ago as they are today.

After the switch I never bought a single bottle of Breton at retail. (Now, I have only 96, 02, 04, and 05 remaining in the cellar.). I know many others in the NYC wine community who felt and acted the same. I can’t know for sure, but I believe the abandonment by previously regular supporters was an unexpected market setback for the Bretons, exacerbated by Kermit’s pricing and different approach to wine promotion and marketing. In my mind the Bretons have never regained the status they had achieved before the switch. And I personally don’t know the wines because I won’t buy them.
Thanks for the insight, Jayson. I obviously don't know the details of the split with LDM. I'm sure a lot of the NY stores were big supporters, and if they have the same feelings you do that might explain some of the decrease in popularity as there are a lot of influential stores and restaurant buyers there, who in turn influence their customers. Back to my original question then, it's not that their reputation for quality has changed, but that their business decisions left a "bad taste" in what was probably their largest market.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#65 Post by Vincent Fritzsche » May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am

I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#66 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 21st, 2020, 9:50 am

Marshall Manning wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:29 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 10:39 pm
In this context, Breton’s switch from LDM to Kermit was around the time Joe got sick, and the switch was taken personally and internalized by many of us who had supported Joe, Denyse, and Kevin. There were details that were not pretty. Suffice it to say, it left a bad taste in the mouths of many wine geek supporters. I can’t know if these feelings were very widespread, but such Loire Cab Francs are relatively small production wines that weren’t as popular 10 years ago as they are today.

After the switch I never bought a single bottle of Breton at retail. (Now, I have only 96, 02, 04, and 05 remaining in the cellar.). I know many others in the NYC wine community who felt and acted the same. I can’t know for sure, but I believe the abandonment by previously regular supporters was an unexpected market setback for the Bretons, exacerbated by Kermit’s pricing and different approach to wine promotion and marketing. In my mind the Bretons have never regained the status they had achieved before the switch. And I personally don’t know the wines because I won’t buy them.
Thanks for the insight, Jayson. I obviously don't know the details of the split with LDM. I'm sure a lot of the NY stores were big supporters, and if they have the same feelings you do that might explain some of the decrease in popularity as there are a lot of influential stores and restaurant buyers there, who in turn influence their customers. Back to my original question then, it's not that their reputation for quality has changed, but that their business decisions left a "bad taste" in what was probably their largest market.
Marshall, I don’t know about quality if comparing then to now. I always liked the older wines a lot, particularly the Chinon Picasses they stopped making years ago, the Clos Senechal, and the Grand Mont with 15-20 years of bottle age. I would put them near the top for Chinon-Bourgueil based on the wines I know. Baudry wines might have an added degree of purity and detail that on average puts them ahead slightly.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#67 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 21st, 2020, 9:53 am

Vincent Fritzsche wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am
I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
Being in NY, with access and good pricing Locally then, I don’t know if Kermit always had the West Coast business. And Dressner the East. Dividing somewhere in the middle. Others may remember the details.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#68 Post by Marshall Manning » May 21st, 2020, 10:28 am

Vincent Fritzsche wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am
I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
Someone who goes further back then I (hard to imagine, I know) might have all of the facts, but I think I remember that Kermit has represented both Baudry and Breton in CA for a long time (maybe the original importer for both?). When they wanted to go national Kermit initially decided against it and they went to LDM instead. At some point Breton came back to KL nationally...maybe around 2010?

For example, here in OR, the few Baudry wines I see are LDM, not KL. I think KL only represents Baudry in CA still?
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#69 Post by Mike Evans » May 21st, 2020, 12:19 pm

Vincent Fritzsche wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am
I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
I think Kermit just had CA at that point, or may even have only sold them at his store. I bought my 1995 through 2002 vintage wines on release from David Lillie, first at Garnet and then at Chambers St., and they were imported by LDM.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#70 Post by Jay Miller » May 21st, 2020, 12:30 pm

Ramon C wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 11:35 am

Granted that I can't recall having had Baudry earlier than 1999 vintage, but I've found aged/matured Rougeard to be crazy good and the experiences are at levels that I've not had in other Loire-based cab franc of the same age, most of which are already good in their own rights.
Hi Ramon - if things ever get back to normal remind me of this and I'd be happy to open my last 1997 Croix Boissee with you.

That said, I agree with you.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#71 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 21st, 2020, 12:34 pm

Chambers NYC just got in a bunch of the 2018 Les Grezeaux. I grabbed a bunch, order away!

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#72 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 21st, 2020, 12:46 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 10:28 am
Vincent Fritzsche wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am
I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
Someone who goes further back then I (hard to imagine, I know) might have all of the facts, but I think I remember that Kermit has represented both Baudry and Breton in CA for a long time (maybe the original importer for both?). When they wanted to go national Kermit initially decided against it and they went to LDM instead. At some point Breton came back to KL nationally...maybe around 2010?

For example, here in OR, the few Baudry wines I see are LDM, not KL. I think KL only represents Baudry in CA still?
Just checked the 2 Baudrys I have at home:
2007 Croix Boissee ---- imported by Adventures in Wine
2015 Clos Guillot ---- KL
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#73 Post by eweininger » May 21st, 2020, 1:51 pm

I like Breton a lot, but in my experience they’re just not as easily available as Baudry’s wines.

Why that is seems tricky to me. If I had to guess, it’d be because Kermit pushes prices up a little faster than LDM, and buyers are more price sensitive than we (on WB) sometimes appreciate.

In my locale, Trinch! (Breton’s fruit forward, drink now wine) now costs about the same as Les Grezeaux. I buy both (in fact, a bottle of Trinch! last night was very nice), but I suspect that most Loire cf consumers, faced with that choice, will reach for the Baudry.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#74 Post by Ramon C » May 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm

Assuming I got the same email, but $32 for the Baudry '18 Le Grezeaux?

First time I can recall, that it's gone to the 30s.

In some ways, reminds me a bit of the Gonon SJ trajectory.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#75 Post by Mike Evans » May 21st, 2020, 6:07 pm

Ramon C wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm
Assuming I got the same email, but $32 for the Baudry '18 Le Grezeaux?

First time I can recall, that it's gone to the 30s.

In some ways, reminds me a bit of the Gonon SJ trajectory.
I suspect the tariffs account for much of the increase.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#76 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 21st, 2020, 6:08 pm

Just buy it and move on. It’s the new new. You know you won’t regret it.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#77 Post by Ramon C » May 21st, 2020, 6:14 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 6:08 pm
Just buy it and move on. It’s the new new. You know you won’t regret it.
Not buying earlier vintages at that and haven't had it to know if I won't regret. Enjoy your new new.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#78 Post by Julian Marshall » May 22nd, 2020, 1:48 am

Mike Evans wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 6:07 pm
Ramon C wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm
Assuming I got the same email, but $32 for the Baudry '18 Le Grezeaux?

First time I can recall, that it's gone to the 30s.

In some ways, reminds me a bit of the Gonon SJ trajectory.
I suspect the tariffs account for much of the increase.
Yes - in France the 2018 is on sale at 17€, the same as the 2017, 2 euros more than the 2016 and 2015 were.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#79 Post by Joe Chanley » May 22nd, 2020, 5:30 am

buy a case and it's below $30 per [berserker.gif]

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#80 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 22nd, 2020, 5:41 am

Joe Chanley wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:30 am
buy a case and it's below $30 per [berserker.gif]

Ha, exactly. And for the quality, it’s still ridiculously well-priced.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#81 Post by Mike Evans » May 22nd, 2020, 7:02 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:41 am
Joe Chanley wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 5:30 am
buy a case and it's below $30 per [berserker.gif]

Ha, exactly. And for the quality, it’s still ridiculously well-priced.
I had no problem grabbing half a case at that price, along with some of their consistently fabulous rosé and some Les Granges.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#82 Post by Josh Grossman » May 22nd, 2020, 7:15 am

Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 9:36 pm
Marshall Manning wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 7:16 pm
Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 3:04 pm
First, I think their reputation doesn’t seem to be as strong as it used to be, particularly when compared to Baudry and Clos Rougeard which used to be part of the same portfolio. I’m also not convinced that Kermit’s wider distribution serves Breton any better than LDM’s, as their wines don’t seem to have much greater availability.
Thanks for the thoughts Mike. Is their reputation dependent on the importer, though, or just trends/fads in the wine biz? While I used to sell the Breton wines, it was always tough to sell most Loire Valley reds in Oregon, so I wonder if it's that way across the country (with the exception of the major markets) and if it's only a small percentage of geeks who even care about the wines overall?
I’m not sure about the broader market, but Breton used to be every bit as well-regarded as Baudry in Loire geek circles and deserved that reputation. Now, even on this forum, references to Baudry are frequent and positive while references to Breton are comparatively rare. I think the importers have a good bit of responsibility for both.

Dressner did a good job of promoting both Breton and Baudry and brought members of both families over fairly often for events. The Dressner tours never made it to Atlanta, but as a Loire geek I was always aware of them and the vintners who were there, particularly the NY ones. Kermit may be bringing the Bretons over as well, but I can’t recall seeing any references to events with them.

I have quite a bit of 1996 to 2002 Bretons left and most that I’ve opened in the past several years have been exceptional. On the other hand, I have very few recent vintages while I have a lot of recent Baudry. One important reason for the difference is that I haven’t seen many discussions about recent Bretons that would encourage me to seek them out. I also haven’t seen many offered at retail in comparison to Baudry and the few I’ve seen have been at prices that further quenched my enthusiasm, both of which can be laid at least partially at Kermit’s feet.

It may be more specific to my market, but my experience is that when a producer moves to Kermit, their wines become harder to find and the prices go up, often to the point that I’m no longer willing to buy them. I hate that one of my favorite producers got Kermitified. Here are some reasons why:

1996 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Les Perrières - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (8/16/2019)
Exhibiting terrific complexity and grace, with nuanced dark fruit, spice, and a soupçon of bell pepper, supported by fine tannin and well-integrated acidity, it is exceptional now but with no sign of fading. (94 pts.)

1998 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (4/18/2019)
Corked. NR (flawed)

2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Nuits d'Ivresse - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (9/27/2018)
A delightful melange of dark fruit and savory earthy and poblano peppery notes, it represents what I love about Loire Cabernet Franc, while it is drinking extremely well now, it is in no danger of dying. (93 pts.)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (6/10/2017)
BeaujoLoire Blowout (St. Cecilia, Atlanta, GA): More fruit driven and intense than the Filliatreau, though not quite as complex, with blackberry and a hint of green pepper. Amazing. (94 pts.)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/7/2015)
Fairly sweet cherry fruit with a little leather but minimal green pepper, it is pretty much at peak. (91 pts.)

1999 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (1/4/2014)
Breton, Texier, and Puzelat: An initial burst of brett blew off quickly, leaving well-knit tart red fruit, leather, and a little minerality as constants, while over few hours a pleasant herbaceousness flittered in and out. It's in a nice place right now, and would be dangerously easy to drink if the 11.5% alcohol shown on the label was much higher.

1996 Catherine et Pierre Breton Chinon Les Picasses - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (9/30/2012)
Older Loires: Corked. NR (flawed)

1997 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Sénéchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (9/30/2012)
Older Loires: Ripe blackberry fruit sits on a pleasing earthy/leathery foundation that keeps it from getting out of hand, while a touch of green pepper adds more complexity without being unpleasant. It is drinking well now, but I'm in no great hurry to finish my remaining bottles.
Great post. I had a 1988 CP Breton Chinon Beaumont that is one of my favorite wines ever. I hardly see them either. I also had a 2002 Les Perrières that was great. I do wish I could find more. My limited experience Breton is a bit less extracted and has no brett as compared to most.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#83 Post by Mike Evans » May 22nd, 2020, 8:02 am

Marshall Manning wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:21 am
Mike Evans wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 9:36 pm

I have quite a bit of 1996 to 2002 Bretons left and most that I’ve opened in the past several years have been exceptional. On the other hand, I have very few recent vintages while I have a lot of recent Baudry. One important reason for the difference is that I haven’t seen many discussions about recent Bretons that would encourage me to seek them out. I also haven’t seen many offered at retail in comparison to Baudry and the few I’ve seen have been at prices that further quenched my enthusiasm, both of which can be laid at least partially at Kermit’s feet.

It may be more specific to my market, but my experience is that when a producer moves to Kermit, their wines become harder to find and the prices go up, often to the point that I’m no longer willing to buy them. I hate that one of my favorite producers got Kermitified.
Maybe I buy wine differently, but if I had as many positive data points as you do with Breton I wouldn't stop buying them just because they aren't talked about on the board as much. If you really like the wines, and can get them (Wine Searcher lists a LOT of them around the US under $40), why not continue to buy them? Above they were mentioned along with Rougeard. While I've only had that wine a couple of times, and not recently, I think that's in a different league. But then again you could buy a case of Breton for what you'd pay for one bottle of Rougeard.
Marshall, a complete answer would be very long and complicated. The (relatively) short version is that I took a long hiatus from wine from around 2004 to 2011 or so during which I was almost completely disconnected from anything having to do with wine. So, I didn’t just stop buying Breton, I stopped buying almost everything. When I started to re-enter the wine world, I discovered that a lot had changed.

One thing that brought me back was the discovery of a store less than 10 minutes from my house that focused on natural and minimal intervention wines whose owner quickly became a good friend. Browsing the shelves and seeing so many labels of familiar producers that I previously could only get from NY felt like a group of old friends had just moved to my neighborhood. I don’t recall ever seeing Breton on his shelves, but he had plenty of other wines to keep me happy.

I also reconnected with a number of old Loire geek friends and acquaintances. I learned about the Bretons’ separation from LDM from some of them. My loyalties were easy to sort out, as while I‘d never met Joe in person, I knew him virtually before my hiatus and his portfolio literally changed my life. They were also a key source of information about the current state of Loire wines and I rarely saw notes about Breton from them, so Breton was further out out of sight, out of mind.

When I did stumble across Breton wines, the pricing was no longer comparable to Baudry, in particular, a producer I liked as much and which was much easier for me to find from retailers with whom I had relationships. I also discovered other producers that I found that I liked. Finally, I had about 150 bottles of older Loire Cabernet Franc in the cellar, including 35 to 40 older Bretons, so I still had enough to keep me happy for a while.

Sorry for the length of the answer, but buying decisions can be complicated, and this was about as brief as I could make it.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#84 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 22nd, 2020, 8:11 am

Ramon C wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm
Assuming I got the same email, but $32 for the Baudry '18 Le Grezeaux?

First time I can recall, that it's gone to the 30s.

In some ways, reminds me a bit of the Gonon SJ trajectory.
Even with the 10% discount for a case, Chambers can be a buck or so higher than competition (though usually for LDM wines, the discount gets them to the competitive price). Even if they are a buck or two higher, given how they stand behind their wines, I think it's worth it.

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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#85 Post by Nathan V. » May 22nd, 2020, 8:25 am

Jay Miller wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 12:30 pm
Ramon C wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 11:35 am

Granted that I can't recall having had Baudry earlier than 1999 vintage, but I've found aged/matured Rougeard to be crazy good and the experiences are at levels that I've not had in other Loire-based cab franc of the same age, most of which are already good in their own rights.
Hi Ramon - if things ever get back to normal remind me of this and I'd be happy to open my last 1997 Croix Boissee with you.

That said, I agree with you.
That 1997 was great. That's one of the bottles I opened the week after Joe died. I opened most of my last bottles of LDM wines that week.
ITB-ish.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#86 Post by Nathan V. » May 22nd, 2020, 8:27 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 12:46 pm
Marshall Manning wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 10:28 am
Vincent Fritzsche wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 9:44 am
I’m confused. I first bought Breton’s 1996s at Kermit’s shop back in ‘98 and ‘99 when I lived in the Bay Area. Plain white labels with script. You can see examples of the old label on cellartracker. Did it go from KL to LDM and then back?
Someone who goes further back then I (hard to imagine, I know) might have all of the facts, but I think I remember that Kermit has represented both Baudry and Breton in CA for a long time (maybe the original importer for both?). When they wanted to go national Kermit initially decided against it and they went to LDM instead. At some point Breton came back to KL nationally...maybe around 2010?

For example, here in OR, the few Baudry wines I see are LDM, not KL. I think KL only represents Baudry in CA still?
Just checked the 2 Baudrys I have at home:
2007 Croix Boissee ---- imported by Adventures in Wine
That's grey market.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#87 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 22nd, 2020, 8:54 am

Interesting. I always assumed grey market wouldn't bear an importer sticker/label. The learning is starting early today!
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#88 Post by Marshall Manning » May 22nd, 2020, 9:15 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 7:15 am
Great post. I had a 1988 CP Breton Chinon Beaumont that is one of my favorite wines ever. I hardly see them either. I also had a 2002 Les Perrières that was great. I do wish I could find more. My limited experience Breton is a bit less extracted and has no brett as compared to most.
Josh, there are lots of '15s-'17s available on WineSearcher.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#89 Post by Marshall Manning » May 22nd, 2020, 9:20 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 8:54 am
Interesting. I always assumed grey market wouldn't bear an importer sticker/label. The learning is starting early today!
"Grey market" just means it's not brought in by the official US importer. But it still has to have an importer label if it's going to be sold. So an Adventures in Wine import label would be considered "grey market" even though it's legal. Just a guess, but it was probably sourced from another wholesaler in Europe or from the domaine.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#90 Post by Ramon C » May 22nd, 2020, 2:39 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
May 22nd, 2020, 8:11 am
Ramon C wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm
Assuming I got the same email, but $32 for the Baudry '18 Le Grezeaux?

First time I can recall, that it's gone to the 30s.

In some ways, reminds me a bit of the Gonon SJ trajectory.
Even with the 10% discount for a case, Chambers can be a buck or so higher than competition (though usually for LDM wines, the discount gets them to the competitive price). Even if they are a buck or two higher, given how they stand behind their wines, I think it's worth it.
I'm not quibbling over the $2 - $4 price differential that the 2018 Grezeaux went up by, but after several years of buying at low to mid-upper 20s was surprised that it hit north of 30 for the first time. Mike's tariff information explained that. I bought and continuously reloaded on all previous vintages of this by the cases as daily weekday drinkers, but never keep in remote storage as I prefer the Croix Boissee to occupy expensive (for me) NYC wine storage spaces.

For now, I'll just savor the few Grezeaux 2016s and 2017s that I still have at home.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#91 Post by Ramon C » May 22nd, 2020, 3:27 pm

Jay Miller wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 12:30 pm
Ramon C wrote:
May 14th, 2020, 11:35 am

Granted that I can't recall having had Baudry earlier than 1999 vintage, but I've found aged/matured Rougeard to be crazy good and the experiences are at levels that I've not had in other Loire-based cab franc of the same age, most of which are already good in their own rights.
Hi Ramon - if things ever get back to normal remind me of this and I'd be happy to open my last 1997 Croix Boissee with you.

That said, I agree with you.
Will be reminding you, Jay, if/when the time comes. Thanks. [cheers.gif]

Also, happy to make my way for offline-dinner in one of Grove St. area restaurants ... if-when the air clears.
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#92 Post by Claus Jeppesen » May 31st, 2020, 10:48 am

IlkkaL wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 7:58 am
Nathan V. wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 7:41 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
March 31st, 2020, 3:59 am
Unfortunately the Boisee (red and white) is not available in magnums
I've been trying to get Matthieu to bottle the red in magnum for years but he says that there isn't enough wine to justify a separate bottling run. The only magnum I've ever seen was a 2008 magnum he sent us as a wedding gift. I wonder if 2008 was a birth year for one of his children or something.

Grézeaux is usually available in magnum. I've also never seen a Clos Guillot magnum.
I'm seeing the 2017 Clos Guillot in magnum as we speak, don't know about past vintages though.
https://www.alleswein.com/9/pid/42420/C ... Magnum.htm champagne.gif
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Re: TN: 2016 Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Les Grézeaux

#93 Post by IlkkaL » May 31st, 2020, 11:09 pm

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
May 31st, 2020, 10:48 am
IlkkaL wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 7:58 am
Nathan V. wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 7:41 am


I've been trying to get Matthieu to bottle the red in magnum for years but he says that there isn't enough wine to justify a separate bottling run. The only magnum I've ever seen was a 2008 magnum he sent us as a wedding gift. I wonder if 2008 was a birth year for one of his children or something.

Grézeaux is usually available in magnum. I've also never seen a Clos Guillot magnum.
I'm seeing the 2017 Clos Guillot in magnum as we speak, don't know about past vintages though.
https://www.alleswein.com/9/pid/42420/C ... Magnum.htm champagne.gif
Hey thanks a lot, just when I needed to know of another shop with an interesting selection champagne.gif I wonder how available those Rougeard bottles might be?
Last name = L u !V! !V! e

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