2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

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Larry Chmel
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2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#1 Post by Larry Chmel » February 1st, 2020, 6:17 am

Suggestions for a 2015 Napa cab that will age at least 25 years. Price range $100-$150. If there are none in this range, anything up to $200. I've heard Monte Bello but I believe that's $225 or more.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#2 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » February 1st, 2020, 6:22 am

Dunn Howell mtn
Chappellet Prichard
Ridge MB (not Napa)
Montelena estate

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#3 Post by Justin Wittkopf » February 1st, 2020, 6:36 am

MacDonald

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#4 Post by NickRut » February 1st, 2020, 6:44 am

Justin Wittkopf wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
MacDonald

Can you point us where to get MacDonald for somewhere in his price range? I’ll take a dozen.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#5 Post by PHuff » February 1st, 2020, 6:51 am

Spottswoode......
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#6 Post by Philip G » February 1st, 2020, 6:59 am

Seavey Cabs are made for aging 25+ years and are consistently excellent. Their Caravina Cabernet is made to drink earlier.

BV Georges de Latour is readily available at around $100, still consistently good and has a long track record of aging well.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#7 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » February 1st, 2020, 7:01 am

NickRut wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:44 am
Justin Wittkopf wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
MacDonald

Can you point us where to get MacDonald for somewhere in his price range? I’ll take a dozen.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#8 Post by Chris Seiber » February 1st, 2020, 7:01 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:22 am
Dunn Howell mtn
Chappellet Prichard
Ridge MB (not Napa)
Montelena estate
I’d add Seavey as another excellent wine in that price range and with a great track record for aging.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#9 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » February 1st, 2020, 7:04 am

Is there a heitz mv from 15?

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#10 Post by Andrew Gold » February 1st, 2020, 7:07 am

Togni fits in that category. Diamond Creek are likely outside the price range, but would as well.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#11 Post by Brian Gilp » February 1st, 2020, 7:17 am

It’s not Napa and it’s not $100 and it doesn’t yet have the track record but I believe that the Calluna wines are made in a balanced style that will allow them to age for 25 years. I had a 2011 CVC last spring that was singing and way better than a few years ago and seemed to me to have more to give yet. Given that this is the $30 entry level merlot based blend from a “bad” vintage, it reinforced my belief about how the Estate and Colonel will age.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#12 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 1st, 2020, 7:21 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:22 am
Dunn Howell mtn
Chappellet Prichard
Ridge MB (not Napa)
Montelena estate

This. Wines with a known track-record for aging.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#13 Post by Howard Cooper » February 1st, 2020, 7:36 am

Chateau Montelena Estate
Ridge MB (look at Wine Searcher. I see prices between $150 and $200)
Forman
Dunn (either Napa or Howell Mountain)

Montelena, Ridge and Dunn have a very long track record. Forman's track record is long but not as long - however, the owner made wine at Sterling in the early 70s that have aged quite well - the 1974 was outstanding a few years ago.

For a lot of traditional estates in California, it is harder to know if the wines will age as well as they used to because of changes there. For example, Heitz, Mondavi Reserve, BV Private Reserve, Diamond Creek, etc. Some of these likely will and others will not but I would not have the same level of confidence as at the four listed above.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#14 Post by Jeff_M. » February 1st, 2020, 7:47 am

PHuff wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:51 am
Spottswoode......
The older Spottswoode vintages can be found in this price range and are already aged. I've got some from the 80s and they drink VERY well
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#15 Post by K. Tr@n » February 1st, 2020, 8:25 am

2015 Phelps Insignia. $170-180 all in.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#16 Post by Ed Steinway » February 1st, 2020, 8:28 am

+1 on Dunn HM, Spottswoode, Forman and Montelena Estate for Napa. I would also add Mayacamas. And Monte Bello from 2015 is excellent if you are looking to go outside of Napa.

Ed

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#17 Post by John Davis » February 1st, 2020, 8:39 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 7:01 am
NickRut wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:44 am
Justin Wittkopf wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
MacDonald

Can you point us where to get MacDonald for somewhere in his price range? I’ll take a dozen.
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Which is closed, right?
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#18 Post by Kevin Patrick » February 1st, 2020, 8:39 am

Full retail on Schrader is outside your given range but you can occasionally see a few offered within that range if you keep your eyes peeled.

Lail J Daniel Cuvee also has the same buying profile as the Schrader but can be sourced sub-200 on occasion.

Myriad Dr Crane Elysian can also be sourced below current wine-searcher levels if you keep a look out.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#19 Post by Nathan Smyth » February 1st, 2020, 8:48 am

Philip Togni is always the first choice here.

When searching through tasting notes, you'll want to be looking for descriptors such as "green", "tight", "lean", "vegetal", "bell pepper", "tobacco", "acidic", "mouth-puckering", "backward" and "brown".

Those are the Cabernets which are built for the long haul.

Steer clear of wines with descriptors such as "soft", "plush", "velvety", "sweet", "fruity", "black", "purple", "vanilla", "chocolate", "delicious" and "crowd pleaser".

They'll be dead in five years*.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, look for the highest elevation & most northerly latitude possible [Spring Mountain, Howell Mountain, Mayacamas Mountains, etc], and always try to steer clear of fruit from the floor of the Napa valley.

*Unless maybe you purchase them in 1.5L or 3.0L formats, and store them at 45 degrees, which would essentially amount to just holding them in suspended animation - they won't actually be aging at all. And of course large formats will bust the budget real fast.
Last edited by Nathan Smyth on February 1st, 2020, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#20 Post by S teve R edenbaugh » February 1st, 2020, 9:21 am

After falling in love with California Cabernets from the mid 80's...the only ones I buy 30 years later are built for long term aging and definitely resemble the wines that seduced me then. Number 1...Dominus. Number 2....Ridge Monte Belllo. Number 3...Philip Togni

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#21 Post by Neal.Mollen » February 1st, 2020, 9:44 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 7:21 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:22 am
Dunn Howell mtn
Chappellet Prichard
Ridge MB (not Napa)
Montelena estate

This. Wines with a known track-record for aging.
+ Togni, Heitz
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#22 Post by Neal.Mollen » February 1st, 2020, 9:46 am

Ed Steinway wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:28 am
+1 on Dunn HM, Spottswoode, Forman and Montelena Estate for Napa. I would also add Mayacamas. And Monte Bello from 2015 is excellent if you are looking to go outside of Napa.

Ed
Ed, are the "new" Mayacamas wines made in the same style as the ones from the 70s and 80s? I hope so, and not just because I have a few from recent years bought on that premise
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#23 Post by ChrisU » February 1st, 2020, 9:46 am

Corison
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#24 Post by Neal.Mollen » February 1st, 2020, 9:49 am

Nathan Smyth wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:48 am
Philip Togni is always the first choice here.

When searching through tasting notes, you'll want to be looking for descriptors such as "green", "tight", "lean", "vegetal", "bell pepper", "tobacco", "acidic", "mouth-puckering", "backward" and "brown".
I agree 100% with your first sentence, but much less so with your second. A wine that is vegetal or green will not mature into something I want to drink, though one that is tight and backward very well may. I would never associate green, vegetal or bell-peeper heavy wines with the ability to age; rather, I'd say those wines are not worth drinking at any age. And when it comes to CA cabs, I am 100% a traditionalist.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#25 Post by T.L. Reasoner » February 1st, 2020, 10:18 am

In addition to MacDonald, and other suggested wines I would say Rivers marie Lore single vineyard, Maybach and Mondavi To Kalon
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#26 Post by Ed Steinway » February 1st, 2020, 10:20 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Ed, are the "new" Mayacamas wines made in the same style as the ones from the 70s and 80s? I hope so, and not just because I have a few from recent years bought on that premise
Neal, I had the 2013, 2014 and 2015 recently and I would say a similar style. They are probably a touch more modern than the older ones but still made in a restrained, more old-school style. The '14 was my favorite of that trio.

Ed

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#27 Post by NickRut » February 1st, 2020, 10:26 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 7:01 am
NickRut wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:44 am
Justin Wittkopf wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
MacDonald

Can you point us where to get MacDonald for somewhere in his price range? I’ll take a dozen.
The mailing list

They’ll let him sign up right now and buy the 2015s? Or would he have to go find a time machine? Asking for a friend
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#28 Post by NickRut » February 1st, 2020, 10:27 am

John Davis wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:39 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 7:01 am
NickRut wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:44 am



Can you point us where to get MacDonald for somewhere in his price range? I’ll take a dozen.
The mailing list
Which is closed, right?
It’s only like a 6 year waiting list. And they are selling the 2017s this year. But no, MacDonald is definitely a great suggestion.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#29 Post by J.Vizuete » February 1st, 2020, 10:39 am

With all due respect, neither Maybach or Rivers Marie (which I buy), Schrader (which I greatly enjoy) nor Macdonald (which I have not had), have any track record for aging as long as the OP is interested. Of the first 3, I’m not sure these wines are crafted with intent for a long age anyway.

Mondavi Reserve on the other hand.. a 1970 and 1990 side by side were among the best Napa reds I tasted last year.

Even the Silver Oak wines from the 80s and Caymus SS from the early 90s have been great, but neither seems to be made in classic style at present. With that in mind I’m not sure about current release Montelena either.. but the old ones have been great.
Anyone tasted a recent release Montelena estate?

Cant go wrong with Dunn HM...
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#30 Post by Neal.Mollen » February 1st, 2020, 11:05 am

Ed Steinway wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 10:20 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
Ed, are the "new" Mayacamas wines made in the same style as the ones from the 70s and 80s? I hope so, and not just because I have a few from recent years bought on that premise
Neal, I had the 2013, 2014 and 2015 recently and I would say a similar style. They are probably a touch more modern than the older ones but still made in a restrained, more old-school style. The '14 was my favorite of that trio.

Ed
Thanks Ed. Just checked and the bottles I have are from 2010. Not even sure how I ended up with them.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#31 Post by Jeff_M. » February 1st, 2020, 11:08 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 10:39 am
With all due respect, neither Maybach or Rivers Marie (which I buy), Schrader (which I greatly enjoy) nor Macdonald (which I have not had), have any track record for aging as long as the OP is interested. Of the first 3, I’m not sure these wines are crafted with intent for a long age anyway.

Mondavi Reserve on the other hand.. a 1970 and 1990 side by side were among the best Napa reds I tasted last year.

Even the Silver Oak wines from the 80s and Caymus SS from the early 90s have been great, but neither seems to be made in classic style at present. With that in mind I’m not sure about current release Montelena either.. but the old ones have been great.
Anyone tasted a recent release Montelena estate?

Cant go wrong with Dunn HM...
I just had a 92' Mondavi Reserve a week ago and while the tannins have mellowed it still drank super young and huge. Good call on Mondavi Reserve
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#32 Post by Nathan Smyth » February 1st, 2020, 11:17 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 9:49 am
Nathan Smyth wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:48 am
Philip Togni is always the first choice here.

When searching through tasting notes, you'll want to be looking for descriptors such as "green", "tight", "lean", "vegetal", "bell pepper", "tobacco", "acidic", "mouth-puckering", "backward" and "brown".
I agree 100% with your first sentence, but much less so with your second. A wine that is vegetal or green will not mature into something I want to drink, though one that is tight and backward very well may. I would never associate green, vegetal or bell-peeper heavy wines with the ability to age; rather, I'd say those wines are not worth drinking at any age. And when it comes to CA cabs, I am 100% a traditionalist.
Okay, I have to make a little confession here: I can't really much smell or taste wine.

Mostly I feel [in terms of grip, penetration, a sense of layering, and that weird crystalline/metallic/electrolytic/electromagnetic current you sometimes feel with a Riesling in your mouth], and see [in terms of the colors in my mind's eye, which I understand to be called "synesthesia"] my way through a wine.

But I've read a ton of criticisms of young Togni wines over the years [from people who presumably can smell and taste], and what I wrote [from memory] were all of the descriptors I read [over the years] from people who were complaining about why they hated Togni - green, bell pepper, vegetal*, no fruit, tannins too powerful, etc etc etc.

BTW, there's a "stencil" or "shiner" of a Mayacamas Mountains wine in our market right now [the "End of the Vine" Mt Veeder Cabernet]; at a tasting a few months ago, I had a chance to try it [after it had been in a decanter for a few hours], and it was the leanest, tightest, greenest, light-brownest Cabernet I've ever tasted. I got a rather large pour of it in my glass, and I kept telling myself that I oughtta toss the rest of it in the swill bucket, but it was just too dadgum yummy, and I ended up swallowing the whole thing.

Sadly, it's a 2014 [rather than a 2015], because that wine shouldn't have any problem making it 50 or 75 years.


*Remember, tobacco is a green vegetable, right up until it's harvested & dried & cured. And my gut instinct is that something similar is happening when you age a great cabernet [in terms of those green tobacco notes evolving into cured tobacco notes].

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#33 Post by Nathan Smyth » February 1st, 2020, 11:31 am

Mondavi has been through so many different winemakers over the years - it's kinda like Penfolds Grange in that respect - that you really have to know the winemaker and the vintage in order to have any hope of being able to anticipate what it is that you might end up tasting.

The 1978 drank like a chocolate milkshake.

Whereas the 1995 was almost like a rose Cab Franc [or even a Pineau d'Aunis] from the Loire.

While thinking about the 1995, I got to wonder what Tim Mondavi is up to these days, and apparently it's called "Continuum":

https://www.continuumestate.com/wine

It doesn't even contain a majority of Cabernet in most years, and it was only 46% Cabernet in 2015 [with 31% Cabernet Franc, 17% Petit Verdot, and 6% Merlot].

But there are some intriguing descriptors at Cellar Tracker:

"Some vegetable after decant on the front end..."
"...a hint of green pepper..."
https://www.cellartracker.com/notes.asp?iWine=2711932


On the other hand, Jeff Leve loved it, so that's a huge warning sign.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#34 Post by Eric White » February 1st, 2020, 11:32 am

Consider Neal, the '01s are still going strong, and you can't beat the price.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#35 Post by GregT » February 1st, 2020, 11:37 am

I'll go out on a limb and second the Calluna wines in addition to the Dunn, Togni, Heitz, Monte Bello, BV, Spottswoode, Mayacamas, Dominus, Chappellet, Montelena, Corison, and Forman mentioned.

Also Acumen, made from Atlas Peak fruit. Also look at Groth, Grgich, Dalla Valle, Staglin, Palmaz, Viader, Fisher. I've had them at 20 years so I imagine 25 would be OK. Nobody ever talks about it but Chateau Potelle is another that ages well.

Others I'd look at would include Hewitt, Crocker and Starr, and Beringer.

Pahlmeyer really changed so I wouldn't include them these days but they were once up there.

Possibles would include Inglenook, Bond, Cardinale, Beckstoffer, Opus One, and Cakebread.

And you may as well include Caymus and Silver Oak. We don't know the OP's taste after all.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#36 Post by GregT » February 1st, 2020, 11:39 am

Okay, I have to make a little confession here: I can't really much smell or taste wine.

Mostly I feel [in terms of grip, penetration, a sense of layering, and that weird crystalline/metallic/electrolytic/electromagnetic current you sometimes feel with a Riesling in your mouth], and see [in terms of the colors in my mind's eye, which I understand to be called "synesthesia"] my way through a wine.

But I've read a ton of criticisms of young Togni wines over the years
Is this serious?

Then how can you have an opinion at all? The way you experience wine, if accurate, has nothing to do with the way most people do.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#37 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » February 1st, 2020, 11:45 am

GregT wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 11:37 am
I'll go out on a limb and second the Calluna wines in addition to the Dunn, Togni, Heitz, Monte Bello, BV, Spottswoode, Mayacamas, Dominus, Chappellet, Montelena, Corison, and Forman mentioned.

Also Acumen, made from Atlas Peak fruit. Also look at Groth, Grgich, Dalla Valle, Staglin, Palmaz, Viader, Fisher. I've had them at 20 years so I imagine 25 would be OK. Nobody ever talks about it but Chateau Potelle is another that ages well.

Others I'd look at would include Hewitt, Crocker and Starr, and Beringer.

Pahlmeyer really changed so I wouldn't include them these days but they were once up there.

Possibles would include Inglenook, Bond, Cardinale, Beckstoffer, Opus One, and Cakebread.

And you may as well include Caymus and Silver Oak. We don't know the OP's taste after all.

So many of these are now over, and some way over, the OP’s price bracket. I just saw Opus is at $350+. Dominus up there, too. Even Spottswood is $225.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#38 Post by J.Vizuete » February 1st, 2020, 12:01 pm

GregT wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 11:37 am
And you may as well include Caymus and Silver Oak. We don't know the OP's taste after all.
As I said, Silver Oak from the 80s were rather classic cabs, and the same is true for Caymus from the 80s/90s. I believe some serious modernization that began in the mid to late 90s puts both outside of what the OP is looking for today. So kind of off topic I guess, my bad.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#39 Post by Ron Erickson » February 1st, 2020, 1:22 pm

I'm surprised Mount Eden hasn't been mentioned yet.

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#40 Post by Sarah S » February 1st, 2020, 1:29 pm

K&L has the 2015 Togni for 129.99.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#41 Post by GregT » February 1st, 2020, 2:23 pm

J.Vizuete wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 12:01 pm
GregT wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 11:37 am
And you may as well include Caymus and Silver Oak. We don't know the OP's taste after all.
As I said, Silver Oak from the 80s were rather classic cabs, and the same is true for Caymus from the 80s/90s. I believe some serious modernization that began in the mid to late 90s puts both outside of what the OP is looking for today. So kind of off topic I guess, my bad.
Agreed. But he hasn't said what he's looking for other than something to age. He didn't talk about a particular style.

Robert - I had no idea those wines had gotten so expensive. $350 for Opus One??? [wow.gif]
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#42 Post by Scott Brunson » February 1st, 2020, 2:31 pm

Kevin Patrick wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:39 am
Full retail on Schrader is outside your given range but you can occasionally see a few offered within that range if you keep your eyes peeled.
TRB says 8-10 years.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#43 Post by Jim F » February 1st, 2020, 2:36 pm

Beringer PR is another not mentioned and generally requires 10+ years aging.......
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#44 Post by Mike Reff » February 1st, 2020, 2:53 pm

GregT wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 11:39 am

Then how can you have an opinion at all? The way you experience wine, if accurate, has nothing to do with the way most people do.
Wait what! don't you buy on what others say, like me buying Bordeaux based on Jeff Leve and Neal Martin way back when the vintage of the century 2005 came out?! champagne.gif

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#45 Post by GregT » February 1st, 2020, 5:08 pm

You make a good point. And you can pass on that wisdom without ever having tasted those wines too! Or you could just ask Gavin which ones he likes!

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#46 Post by J.Vizuete » February 1st, 2020, 6:02 pm

You know who has actually tasted a lot of wine? A: Sally
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#47 Post by mike pobega » February 1st, 2020, 6:34 pm

2015 Ehlers Estate Cabernet Sauvignon "1886"

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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#48 Post by Howard Cooper » February 1st, 2020, 7:23 pm

Ed Steinway wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 8:28 am
+1 on Dunn HM, Spottswoode, Forman and Montelena Estate for Napa. I would also add Mayacamas. And Monte Bello from 2015 is excellent if you are looking to go outside of Napa.

Ed
Togni and Mayacamas are great additions. I have not had enough Spottswoode to comment.
Last edited by Howard Cooper on March 15th, 2020, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#49 Post by Albert_H » February 1st, 2020, 10:22 pm

1. 2015 Philip Togni Cab 2. 2015 Dunn Howell Mtn. Can anybody comment on the Mayacamas now made by AE?
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Re: 2015 Cali Cab to Age 25 Years

#50 Post by S. Wang » February 1st, 2020, 10:43 pm

mike pobega wrote:
February 1st, 2020, 6:34 pm
2015 Ehlers Estate Cabernet Sauvignon "1886"

Finally something actually in the price range. I don't know how well they age though. I happen to have their 05 multiple times because a friend received a case for gift. They are already fairly advanced after 12, 13 years.

Definitely voting for Dunn. Had two 82 in last few months, still in quite good shape.
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