What would your classification of Loire reds be?

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Brian G r a f s t r o m
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#251 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » April 27th, 2020, 1:29 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 6:23 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 6:08 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 5:26 am


The Chambolle of the Loire????????????? Why not just get the Chambolle of Chambolle if you want something like Chambolle?

Because that’s a Burg, meh. ;)
If you don't like Burgundy, isn't calling a wine the Chambolle of the Loire saying that the wine is MEH. [scratch.gif]
Smart marketing by Crush. Use a simile that will be understood, and likely perceived as favorable, by an audience that is willing to spend $$$ on a bottle of wine. $60 for a bottle of Loire Cab. Franc --- expensive relative to most Loire Cab. Francs --- making it a hard sell (probably) to most "Cab. Franc drinkers". But that $60 is a price-point at which you're barely getting out of the Burgundy kiddie pool, if at all, so an easier sell to "Burgundy drinkers." All that aside, if this Cab. Franc is to Cab. Franc what Chambolle is to Burgundy, then it seems the simile would be apt.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#252 Post by Howard Cooper » April 27th, 2020, 2:32 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 5:38 pm
I’ve had the 12 and 13. It’s quite good, not great, but ultimately hard to justify the price. I highlighted it as someone had mentioned on this thread, or perhaps another, that Kissack had rated Germain and Joguet 2018s quite highly.
Is this wine likely to be worth double Baudry Le Clos Guillot? Maybe if it actually did taste like Chambolle?
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#253 Post by Josh Grossman » May 1st, 2020, 10:52 pm

Julian Marshall wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 1:15 am
Antoine Sanzay - how do his wines compare to the other top producers?
Tonight I opened up a 2017 Antoine Sanzay Saumur Champigny. 12.5% abv, dark, but translucent. Upon first taste, with no decant, I thought I had it pegged as all primary cassis fruit and loads of graphite and ink. About 40 mins in, I noticed the graphite transformed into a more floral note. Eventually this floral note of elderflower became the top note, even dominating the cassis. I did a quick double decant for the second glass. This showed that there's loads of sediment in the bottle (I think it might still be macerating). That said, it's completely clean; no brett, lactobacillus, oak, nor green pyrazines could be detected at all. It now has a top note of elderflower, a middle note of graphite and a base note of cassis and spearmint. Some velvety tannins on the finish. Short to medium finish. More sweet and floral than earthy and savory. My favorite Loire reds have a note of katsura leaves in fall: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/26/scie ... scent.html

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#254 Post by Julian Marshall » May 6th, 2020, 7:37 am

Thanks for posting, Josh. I found your excellent note intriguing and wanted to open an Antoine Sanzay myself before responding. I tried a 2014 Les Poyeux on Monday - the nose was floral too, full of fresh spring flowers and yes, some elderflower, although mine had quite a hefty amount of brett too, the colour was quite light, as was the attack - very fresh and elegant, sweet cassis, with a middle section blossoming into very clear notes of strawberry. So far, so good, but the feel at the end was a little underwhelming - it was a very decent wine, but I was surprised at the lack of body and texture. It was a bit simple, lacking in complexity.

So overall, a very pleasant higher level midweek wine: refreshing, delightful, great fruit, but nowhere near the better Roches-Neuves for the same price. This is IMHO the problem - at 20€, I would be happy, at 15€ I would be super-happy, but this costs between 35 and 40€ - where there is a lot of competition. Hopefully it will develop in bottle - I have three more. Compared to the Mabileau Eclipse 2014, it's not at the same level, for example, the latter costing 25€.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#255 Post by eweininger » May 6th, 2020, 6:43 pm

Julian, you are indefatigable at tracking down and trying the wines that get mentioned here. I love your commitment to the thread.

That said, I would push back on the Sanzay characterization, at least to some extent. I’ve only tried the domaine cuvée, 2016 edition (note below), but it was much closer to what josh described than what you report. So, if it’s not presumptuous, could I suggest seeking out an example of that cuvée before writing off the producer? I have a couple of vintages of the poyeaux, and I’ll open one and report back once I can get a suitable meal cued up.

  • 2016 Antoine Sanzay Saumur-Champigny - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (4/17/2020)
    Ballpoint ink, savory herbs, and some mild spice on the nose. The palate shows red and black plums with some leafy background flavors. The tannins in this wine are really impressive, with extraordinary roundness and elegance for an entry level bottling. Despite the relatively light extraction, the wine gently but determinedly saturates every corner of your mouth. Limited complexity, but impeccable balance and a long, slow finish. Excellent.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#256 Post by Julian Marshall » May 7th, 2020, 4:04 am

Elliot, thanks, it's fun discovering what others have recommended - plenty more to come! Concerning Antoine Sanzay, you're quite right, of course! It's only one bottle and I have others, from 2014 and also from 2015. Plus it's only my taste. I'm going to try something from Blot on Friday, I think.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#257 Post by eweininger » May 10th, 2020, 8:57 pm

Opened a bottle of Sanzay Poyeaux 15 over the weekend. I’m notoriously bad at reading the future potential of structured wines from their younger profiles, but that said, I’m pretty sure this will be quite lovely when it reaches maturity. Some pretty floral aromatics, followed by lots of bright, juicy fruit, plenty of herbal and savory notes, and a bit of darker spice. Significant depth and nice integration for a young wine; definitely no brett.

Julian—I very much wish we could taste from the same bottle. Since that’s impossible, I hope you’ll post notes on your 15 Sanzays whenever you open them (good, bad, or ugly). I’m very curious to know whether (or to what degree) our divergent experiences are due to vintage differences.

At this point I think I’ve opened at least a bottle or two from all of the younger S-C vignerons who’ve become trendy in recent years (if available in the US)—though none of them mature. I’m most impressed by Sanzay and Collier at this point. But it’s still hard for me to get past the fact that the top wines are priced 1.5x-2.0x the top wines from Chinon and Bourgueil. Not to mention the fact that there are some less trendy folks in S-C who’ve been making outstanding wine for quite a while—chief among them, perhaps, Hureau, as evidenced most recently by your note in the other thread. Speaking for myself, I really should devote more time (and money) chasing those.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#258 Post by Julian Marshall » May 11th, 2020, 7:11 am

That sounds more like it! I'm sure your experience is much more reliable than mine was, but I'll have another bottle sometime soon. Yes, the prices reflects those estates' growing reputations. The difference in price between Loire reds is not always a guide as to their objective quality anyway - just like anywhere else. I did think about the Sanzay when I was enjoying the Hureau Fevettes 96, which was half the price.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#259 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 15th, 2020, 5:12 pm

The 2009 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie is in a great starting point right now. Still has a long life before it with the structure and sweet chalky tannins, but it’s opening up quite nicely. I’d take this over most 2009 St Emilions.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#260 Post by Howard Cooper » May 15th, 2020, 5:32 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 15th, 2020, 5:12 pm
The 2009 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie is in a great starting point right now. Still has a long life before it with the structure and sweet chalky tannins, but it’s opening up quite nicely. I’d take this over most 2009 St Emilions.
That does not say that much good about the Joguet. I have had very few 2009 Bordeaux that I have liked. Most of the ones I have had seem roasted and/overripe with no acidity.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#261 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 15th, 2020, 5:41 pm

Sorta the point I was making but evidently not very well!

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#262 Post by Howard Cooper » May 15th, 2020, 5:44 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 15th, 2020, 5:41 pm
Sorta the point I was making but evidently not very well!
blush
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#263 Post by joz€f p1nxten » May 17th, 2020, 2:40 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 8:34 am
eweininger wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:15 am
Julian Marshall wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 5:56 am
I was surprised to find the 2014 still available. They tend to be sought after at auction, which to be honest is what brought L'Eclipse to my attention in the first place - I was curious to see why someone would want it so badly - then I got lucky with a lone bottle of 2010 where I was unopposed. I don't know what your vintages are, but on the basis of last night's, they will improve a lot with further cellaring.

BTW - on the subject of weird Covid 19 auction action, there are four bottles of Alliet Coteau de Noiré on sale her, with current bids at 50 and...72€ a bottle before buyer's premium...totally mad.
My eclipse is 2005. Time to open one, I think.

Thanks for the interesting report about the Alliet Noire. From what I gather he makes about 500 cases of that wine, so not exactly a micro-cuvée. It’s not that hard to find over here, in my experience, for maybe $30-$40.

From what I understand, Alliet was pretty heavy handed in his use of new oak back in the 90s. He corrected course, but still has a bit of a reputation over here. At least that’s my best guess.
That 2005 should be a killer! I like Alliet's wines, albeit a different style to the one I normally prefer. I think the 2014 bidding is just lockdown madness, boredom or both - it's available in shops at 25€!
Julian, any idea about how Alliet 2018s are turning out? Is the Noiré the bottling to seek out to get a taste of the estate style? And how does he compare in your view to other estates (Baudry, Roches Neuves) in style?

Best,
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#264 Post by Julian Marshall » May 17th, 2020, 5:16 am

Robert - thanks for the info on the Dioterie 2009 - I've got some Chêne Vert and Varennes 09, neither of which I have tried yet. That you preferred it to most St.Emilion 2009s is truly astounding!

Jozef - I haven't seen any reviews of Alliet's 2018s yet and I haven't seen any on offer - the 2017s I got were released last November, so it's maybe a bit early for the 2018s.
I don't know Alliet's wines as well as other domains and there are certainly more knowledgeable palates here on WB. The only wines I have tried have been all Coteaux de Noiré, of which I've had the 03, 04 and 08 in recent months and enjoyed them all, my favourite being probably the 04. I bought them because I wanted to get a feel of the style before buying more recent vintages.
So far, I've found them to be more intense and concentrated, less fresh and elegant than Joguets for example, thicker and meatier, more fruit, less chalkiness. Coteau de Noiré is a wine I would serve someone who doesn't know Loire reds, but likes Bordeaux, because it's less of a culture shock.

Robert knows Baudry's wines a lot better than me, but I would again say that Coteau de Noiré is more massive and structured. Compared to Roches Neuves, it's completely different - more black fruit and less red fruit, less fresh and chiseled.

Anyway, I have bought all the recent vintages and will certainly buy some 2018s when they appear.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#265 Post by eweininger » May 17th, 2020, 5:29 am

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 2:40 am
Julian, any idea about how Alliet 2018s are turning out? Is the Noiré the bottling to seek out to get a taste of the estate style? And how does he compare in your view to other estates (Baudry, Roches Neuves) in style?

Best,
Jozef
I’m not Julian, but since I’ve been banging the drum about Alliet I’ll take the liberty of responding as best I can. Apologies in advance for the length.

Alliet has a reputation as being extremely fastidious in both the vineyard and the winery. They are very focused on making cabernet franc that eschews anything barnyardy, “funky,” or overly “green.” One of the wines’ most noticeable attributes is that the tannins are quite elegant by Chinon/Bourgueil standards, and they manage to combine good depth and complexity with pleasing texture and impeccable balance. In one of my notes on the basic domaine cuvee I wrote that it was “Loire cf you can serve the guests.”

However, none of the above means that the wines don’t exhibit the typical characteristics attributable to the combination of varietal/region. They show plenty of herbal, “leafy” notes on both the nose and palate, intermixed with floral, earth, and fruit tones. Although Alliet’s name sometimes gets linked to Bordeaux, the wines don’t suppress their identity in any way.

The comparison to Baudry is an excellent one, since the cuvees line up well. (Indeed, it would be fun to taste through side-by-side.) Both make an excellent domaine bottling that is largely fruit driven and drinks well young, but which can age nicely for 10+ years in a good vintage.

Alliet’s Vielles Vignes cuvee is from an alluvial site. In my experience, it doesn’t have the exuberance, intensity, and snap of Les Grezeaux; instead, it offers a great deal of complexity and elegance, on a frame of lightly extracted tannins (in fact, remarkably so). It is one of my favorite Loire wines when I can find it. (Les Grezeaux is too, but it’s much easier to acquire in the U.S.)

L’Huisserie is a young vine cuvee that I believe is from a clay/limestone site (similar to the Clos Guillot, as I understand). It’s hard for me to say too much, since I haven’t been able to try one with sufficient age: unlike the VV, it doesn’t seem to drink that well when young. That said, it might exhibit a little more density than CG from a corresponding vintage.

Finally, Alliet’s Noire is intended to be the vin de garde, like the Criox Boissee rouge. Both are aged in smaller oak barrels—though in Alliet’s case, some fraction is new. Tasting them side-by-side would, I think, be very instructive. But here again, my experience is very limited with Alliet: the young bottle I opened a while ago (2010) was mute and the oak showed a bit, leading me to figure there was no point to tasting them young. So I buy a few now and then on faith.

Obviously, I like the Alliet wines I’ve had a great deal. They are the polar opposite of those that wear their more rustic characteristics on their sleeves (exemplified by someone like Lenoir, I guess). They are, to me, a very well executed exemplar of what this style of Loire cf can offer. But I like other parts of the continuum just as much.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#266 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 17th, 2020, 5:45 am

Wow that’s an outstanding write-up, Elliott.

I clearly need to get Alliet.

Not as easy to find here as my other stable of Loire goodies. I do recall one night being at Racine’s in NYC - they own Chambers, where I do much of my shopping - and had narrowed down my selection to a 2011 Juge (that was only $105!), 2005 Les Grez and had asked the Somm for a recommendation among the maturing Baudry offerings. The Somm actually recommended a 2007 Alliet, said he’s opened two bottles that week and they were glowing. He was right. I sorta still regret not getting that Juge, as shortly thereafter, Juge became a true unicorn. And as much as I liked that Alliet, I never chased any down.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#267 Post by eweininger » May 17th, 2020, 6:35 am

Thanks, Robert. It never occurred to me before, but the parallels with the Baudry lineup are pretty intriguing. Maybe I'll get to organize a side-by-side tasting some day.

I'm fortunate to have a lws that sometimes carries the VV and L'Huisserie. The guy there who does the ordering tells me that he's constantly squabbling with his distributor to get even small allocations, since they're facing lots of demand from restaurant clients "downstate" (meaning NYC) for the wines.

I would hate to see more Loire cf become unicornified. Rougeard got away from me very quickly--it seemed like one day the base cuvee was $60 and the next it was $150. That made me more willing to expend to some effort tracking down obscure producers and sampling across lineups. This thread has been actually been great for identifying some new ones.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#268 Post by eweininger » May 17th, 2020, 6:40 am

PS I just typed Juge into winesearcher, and it's showing me $400 - $800 for new releases. Is that for real? JFC.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#269 Post by joz€f p1nxten » May 17th, 2020, 6:45 am

Elliot, thanks for the write-up, that is much appreciated. I will buy some of the 3 cuvées then - only 2018 is available though. But pricing seems good.

Best,
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#270 Post by eweininger » May 17th, 2020, 6:46 am

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:45 am
Elliot, thanks for the write-up, that is much appreciated. I will buy some of the 3 cuvées then - only 2018 is available though. But pricing seems good.

Best,
Jozef
Please do report back, whatever your impressions!
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#271 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 17th, 2020, 6:48 am

eweininger wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:40 am
PS I just typed Juge into winesearcher, and it's showing me $400 - $800 for new releases. Is that for real? JFC.
Yes indeed. The new unicorn. Huge retired after the 2015 vintage and has wines are no more. They were already growing exponentially in price before that.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#272 Post by HMechbal » May 17th, 2020, 6:52 am

Did anyone taste Arnaud Lambert's reds, Clos Mazurique and Terres Rouges ? Seems to be picking up steam online (in France anyways) and price point is quite low.
I have ordered some that should get there soon but I was curious to know if others had tried it.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#273 Post by Julian Marshall » May 17th, 2020, 7:31 am

eweininger wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:35 am
I would hate to see more Loire cf become unicornified. Rougeard got away from me very quickly--it seemed like one day the base cuvee was $60 and the next it was $150. That made me more willing to expend to some effort tracking down obscure producers and sampling across lineups. This thread has been actually been great for identifying some new ones.
Excellent write-up, Elliot, far more eloquent than mine! It's true that Coteau de Noiré is one that rises a lot in value after a few years but so far, apart from the weird incident I mentioned, it hasn't hit the same heights as the other sought-after wines like Collier and it is still offered at release for 25 to 30€ - OTOH, Clos Nouveau is in the process of going stratospheric. Anyway, there are still plenty of obscure producers with great wines.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#274 Post by Julian Marshall » May 17th, 2020, 7:32 am

HMechbal wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:52 am
Did anyone taste Arnaud Lambert's reds, Clos Mazurique and Terres Rouges ? Seems to be picking up steam online (in France anyways) and price point is quite low.
I have ordered some that should get there soon but I was curious to know if others had tried it.
No, not yet - I've got some - you're right about the price - let us know what you think!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#275 Post by eweininger » May 17th, 2020, 9:08 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:31 am
Excellent write-up, Elliot, far more eloquent than mine! It's true that Coteau de Noiré is one that rises a lot in value after a few years but so far, apart from the weird incident I mentioned, it hasn't hit the same heights as the other sought-after wines like Collier and it is still offered at release for 25 to 30€ - OTOH, Clos Nouveau is in the process of going stratospheric. Anyway, there are still plenty of obscure producers with great wines.
Thanks, Julian. You have much more experience with the Noire than I do, so I’m curious if you think it belongs with the other top wines from Chinon/Bourgueil. Reading between the lines of your earlier post, it sounds like the ones you tried were good, but you weren’t really blown away by them. Would that be accurate?

It’s odd—as far as I can tell there’s just not much demand here for the Noire. (Same with Collier for that matter—I just bought a few bottles at an auction site, and there was not a ton of competition.)

I really, really would like to try that Gauthier cuvée. They’re another producer at the opposite end of the spectrum from Alliet. The basic “village” bottling is a fantastic every day dinner wine.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#276 Post by Julian Marshall » May 17th, 2020, 11:22 am

That's an interesting question! In terms of quality, I would put Alliet's Coteau de Noiré at the same level as any other top Chinon or Bourgueil. I think we put Alliet a rung lower then the others, which was probably a mistake. In terms of value, the Noiré is cheaper here than the Joguet's and the same price as La Croix Boissée

I'm on a learning curve with these wines too - much more than with Bordeaux, for example, which I have been tasting since 1985 (but which I still learn about now). I only seriously got into them about six years ago, so I haven't got the perspective yet and it changes all the time. For example, I preferred the Noiré 08 to La Marginale 08 by Germain or Chêne Vert by Joguet, the Noiré 04 to all other Chinons or Bourgueils, and the Noiré 03 to all other 03s. But then along came the Franc de Pied 09 by Germain which was better than any of them.
I've been really impressed by the three Noirés I've had - because of their power and concentration, but they didn't have the nobility that a really good Joguet can have, nor that chalky touch which other great Loire reds have and which gives them that difference I haven't found anywhere else.

It's a bit like choosing between LLC and Ducru - I admire the former but love the latter. Since I can't afford either, the comparison is futile, but if I was given the choice between a Baudry, a Joguet or an Alliet Noiré, I would instinctively choose one of the first two - just out of personal preference, but the quality is the same - and I'll probably change my mind in a few years time!

My only experience with Gauthier wines has been Les Marsaules 2009, which really impressed me. I do also have some Clos Nouveau and their Grand Mont, but they're a bit young to be cracked open yet.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#277 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 17th, 2020, 5:22 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:48 am
eweininger wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:40 am
PS I just typed Juge into winesearcher, and it's showing me $400 - $800 for new releases. Is that for real? JFC.
Yes indeed. The new unicorn. Huge retired after the 2015 vintage and has wines are no more. They were already growing exponentially in price before that.
To be fair and to bring Elliott up to speed, these aren’t really new releases prices he is seeing.

Elliott, the ‘15 was released in the US market in December 2017-January 2018, and that was it. On release, the prices were okay at normal markups if you could find them. Production in M. Juge’s retirement was very small. He couldn’t bring in his 2016s at all due to health issues that year, stopped working, and passed away late last summer. Starting in about ~2017, the wines went cultish and became very valuable on the secondary market and among retailers trying to take advantage of demand with extravagant margins.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#278 Post by Sean S y d n e y » May 17th, 2020, 7:00 pm

Had a bit of an offbeat one tonight, from Clotilde et Rene-Noël Legrand; a 2011 Saumur-Champigny cuvée called La Chaintrée. Saw that it was a Loire wine with a bit of age for cheap at a local restaurant turned bottle shop.

Rustic if somewhat unremarkable Cab Franc; dark red fruit, black cherry, and some nice gravelly quality on the nose and palate. A little touch of leafy herbaceousness. Quite structured and full, with sandy tannins - even nine years on, this is still pretty stern stuff, and it doesn’t seem likely to really improve much. Old school, but a decent drink.

Can’t find much info on the producer.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#279 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 17th, 2020, 7:02 pm

2011 is a tough vintage

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#280 Post by Julian Marshall » May 18th, 2020, 2:30 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:00 pm
Had a bit of an offbeat one tonight, from Clotilde et Rene-Noël Legrand; a 2011 Saumur-Champigny cuvée called La Chaintrée. Saw that it was a Loire wine with a bit of age for cheap at a local restaurant turned bottle shop.

Rustic if somewhat unremarkable Cab Franc; dark red fruit, black cherry, and some nice gravelly quality on the nose and palate. A little touch of leafy herbaceousness. Quite structured and full, with sandy tannins - even nine years on, this is still pretty stern stuff, and it doesn’t seem likely to really improve much. Old school, but a decent drink.

Can’t find much info on the producer.
Sadly, I think "unremarkable" is spot on. I've had La Chaintrée and the other "superior" cuvée, Les Rogelins, on several occasions. The 2010 of both were just as stern as your 2011. Mine were a bit oaky too, which is not surprising since they spend between 24 and 30 months in barrels. This is one producer whose entry level cuvée is actually more enjoyable - Les Terrages, although they have another two I think - it's good easy-going S-C which is perfect for summer drinking.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#281 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 6:20 am

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 6:45 am
Elliot, thanks for the write-up, that is much appreciated. I will buy some of the 3 cuvées then - only 2018 is available though. But pricing seems good.

Best,
Jozef
Jozef--one other thought. If it's available to you, I'd strongly recommend trying the VV cuvee. To me, it's clearly the one that drinks the best early on. Additionally, my understanding is that in warm/hot vintages (and 2018 definitely qualifies), older vines generally do better managing the stress than their younger counterparts, due to the deeper root system. So the VV is the bottle to look out for.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#282 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 6:27 am

Robert and Jayson--thanks for explaining the Juge situation. I hope you guys got to enjoy plenty of bottles and sample lots vintages before it went stratospheric.

Robert--in response to your Dioterie note above, I meant to ask if you have any thoughts about the window for the 2010 (my oldest bottle of this wine). In my experience, it's a much less open vintage even with lower level wines, so I'd imagine it's still a long way off. But I'd be very curious to hear what you think.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#283 Post by Sean S y d n e y » May 18th, 2020, 6:28 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 2:30 am
Sadly, I think "unremarkable" is spot on. I've had La Chaintrée and the other "superior" cuvée, Les Rogelins, on several occasions. The 2010 of both were just as stern as your 2011. Mine were a bit oaky too, which is not surprising since they spend between 24 and 30 months in barrels. This is one producer whose entry level cuvée is actually more enjoyable - Les Terrages, although they have another two I think - it's good easy-going S-C which is perfect for summer drinking.
Thanks for the info! It seems the daughter has now fully taken over for the father, too.

In a roundabout way, the wine sort of made me smile because it seemed to be so consciously made in such a deeply unfashionable and unforgiving style. It's like it actively ignored the last thirty years of wine history and technique. I probably wouldn't want to drink it again, but I'm sort of glad it exists.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#284 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 18th, 2020, 6:32 am

I think 2010 Dioterie is structurally built more like 2005, so I’d give it to 2025 at least. I have a fair bit of Juge, but with a wine like this, that’s never enough!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#285 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 6:36 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 11:22 am

I'm on a learning curve with these wines too - much more than with Bordeaux, for example, which I have been tasting since 1985 (but which I still learn about now). I only seriously got into them about six years ago, so I haven't got the perspective yet and it changes all the time. For example, I preferred the Noiré 08 to La Marginale 08 by Germain or Chêne Vert by Joguet, the Noiré 04 to all other Chinons or Bourgueils, and the Noiré 03 to all other 03s. But then along came the Franc de Pied 09 by Germain which was better than any of them.
I've been really impressed by the three Noirés I've had - because of their power and concentration, but they didn't have the nobility that a really good Joguet can have, nor that chalky touch which other great Loire reds have and which gives them that difference I haven't found anywhere else.

It's a bit like choosing between LLC and Ducru - I admire the former but love the latter. Since I can't afford either, the comparison is futile, but if I was given the choice between a Baudry, a Joguet or an Alliet Noiré, I would instinctively choose one of the first two - just out of personal preference, but the quality is the same - and I'll probably change my mind in a few years time!
Julian--this was really interesting to read. I await the day when my Noire is mature enough to be able to compare notes.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#286 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 18th, 2020, 11:47 am

Are Collier's reds worth their current asking prices, in folks' opinions? I'm seeing mostly $70 - $80. That's pretty pricey for the region ...

And, if I can be allowed a brief detour into whites: are Collier's whites "worth it"? For their Samur blanc, I'm seeing $42 - $55, depending on vintage.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#287 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 1:06 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 11:47 am
Are Collier's reds worth their current asking prices, in folks' opinions? I'm seeing mostly $70 - $80. That's pretty pricey for the region ...

And, if I can be allowed a brief detour into whites: are Collier's whites "worth it"? For their Samur blanc, I'm seeing $42 - $55, depending on vintage.
If I understand right, Collier has two bottlings each of red and white, from different sites (with vines of different ages): La Ripaille, which retails here for $45-ish, and La Charpentrie, which retails here for $75-ish.

I'm sure that those prices, in part, reflect some reputational value from the Foucault name. To say nothing of the trendiness of Saumur/Saumur-Champigny, in general (e.g. this).

I've only tried one, a 2011 Collier La Ripaille rouge, which I found pretty impressive. I've been looking to buy some of the wines to further see what they're like and how they age, perhaps also motivated by a conversation with a guy I met who's itb in France, and who felt strongly that the Collier wines (white and red) are some of--if not the--best from the Loire, and are becoming increasingly difficult to find in France. (I believe that Julian, who lives nears Paris, has reported in this thread that people there chase them pretty hard there.)

That said, I'm going slowly. CT shows brett complaints in a few vintages of La Charpentrie rouge, for what that's worth. More generally, my feeling is that while S-C reds really do have a somewhat different profile from those of Chinon/Bourgueil/SNdB, it's not clear to me (yet) whether the trendy ones warrant prices significantly higher than the best of those regions, and if so which ones.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#288 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 1:07 pm

PS If you try one of the Collier reads, be sure to give it a lot of air.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#289 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 18th, 2020, 1:07 pm

Is there any reason I should *not* be taking advantage of today's Lopa offer?

2018 Domaine des Sanzay - Saumur Champigny "Les Poyeaux" --- $24.99, or $22.49 if 3 or more bottles


****************
ETA: Thanks, Elliot. [cheers.gif]
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#290 Post by Troy Stark » May 18th, 2020, 1:18 pm

Wondering the same, Brian.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#291 Post by Nick Ellis » May 18th, 2020, 2:01 pm

I just bit on 4. At that price, what is there to lose?

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#292 Post by Julian Marshall » May 18th, 2020, 2:11 pm

FWIW Domaine de Sanzay doesn’t get the same plaudits as Antoine Sanzay - for example the 2014 was given 87 points compared to 91 for Antoine S’s but they don’t cost the same and from a great vintage I’d take them at that price.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#293 Post by eweininger » May 18th, 2020, 2:51 pm

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 2:11 pm
FWIW Domaine de Sanzay doesn’t get the same plaudits as Antoine Sanzay - for example the 2014 was given 87 points compared to 91 for Antoine S’s but they don’t cost the same and from a great vintage I’d take them at that price.
Exactly. This is not Antoine Sanzay. Perhaps there's some family drama behind these near-namesakes, but whatever the back-story, Antoine's the more well-known and highly regarded.

While I bit on a couple of these b/c I've never tried them before, my suspicion is that at roughly this price, Antoine's domaine wine is the best bet.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#294 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 18th, 2020, 4:01 pm

Cool. Sounds like everyone's thinking is tracking mine. As far as "what is there to lose?", I'll just say this: I'm really trying to avoid putting any more boring/whatever bottles in my cellar. :)
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#295 Post by Julian Marshall » May 19th, 2020, 8:38 am

eweininger wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 11:47 am
Are Collier's reds worth their current asking prices, in folks' opinions? I'm seeing mostly $70 - $80. That's pretty pricey for the region ...

And, if I can be allowed a brief detour into whites: are Collier's whites "worth it"? For their Samur blanc, I'm seeing $42 - $55, depending on vintage.
If I understand right, Collier has two bottlings each of red and white, from different sites (with vines of different ages): La Ripaille, which retails here for $45-ish, and La Charpentrie, which retails here for $75-ish.

I'm sure that those prices, in part, reflect some reputational value from the Foucault name. To say nothing of the trendiness of Saumur/Saumur-Champigny, in general (e.g. this).

I've only tried one, a 2011 Collier La Ripaille rouge, which I found pretty impressive. I've been looking to buy some of the wines to further see what they're like and how they age, perhaps also motivated by a conversation with a guy I met who's itb in France, and who felt strongly that the Collier wines (white and red) are some of--if not the--best from the Loire, and are becoming increasingly difficult to find in France. (I believe that Julian, who lives nears Paris, has reported in this thread that people there chase them pretty hard there.)

That said, I'm going slowly. CT shows brett complaints in a few vintages of La Charpentrie rouge, for what that's worth. More generally, my feeling is that while S-C reds really do have a somewhat different profile from those of Chinon/Bourgueil/SNdB, it's not clear to me (yet) whether the trendy ones warrant prices significantly higher than the best of those regions, and if so which ones.
I've never tried a Collier red (or white) and unless I get lucky, I'm unlikely to do so. Whenever they come on the market, they go in minutes and at auction, the prices have skyrocketed. The Charpentrie 2013 (yes, 2013!) sold for 102€ in April, the 2012 for between 120 and 150€. La Ripaille is cheaper - around 40€, but just as hard to get.
I'm told they're very good, but whether or not they're worth that much I don't know. Obviously, compared to Clos Rougeard, they're not expensive, which probably explains why they are so sought after. I suspect speculation rather than taste to be the driving factor behind the success.

Thanks for the link to the article - very interesting, I didn't know that S-C was so trendy! By coincidence, I'm tasting a 2014 Les Poyeux by one of the producers mentioned, Dominique Joseph, with the same by Antoine Sanzay over three nights, starting last night, which I'll report back on later this week.

Their taste profile is different, but my gut feeling is that many S-Cs are over-priced compared to the top Chinons and even more so compared to Bourgueil. Although with Clos Nouveau's recent ascension, that may be changing.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#296 Post by eweininger » May 19th, 2020, 9:16 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 8:38 am

I've never tried a Collier red (or white) and unless I get lucky, I'm unlikely to do so. Whenever they come on the market, they go in minutes and at auction, the prices have skyrocketed. The Charpentrie 2013 (yes, 2013!) sold for 102€ in April, the 2012 for between 120 and 150€. La Ripaille is cheaper - around 40€, but just as hard to get.
I'm told they're very good, but whether or not they're worth that much I don't know. Obviously, compared to Clos Rougeard, they're not expensive, which probably explains why they are so sought after. I suspect speculation rather than taste to be the driving factor behind the success.

Thanks for the link to the article - very interesting, I didn't know that S-C was so trendy! By coincidence, I'm tasting a 2014 Les Poyeux by one of the producers mentioned, Dominique Joseph, with the same by Antoine Sanzay over three nights, starting last night, which I'll report back on later this week.

Their taste profile is different, but my gut feeling is that many S-Cs are over-priced compared to the top Chinons and even more so compared to Bourgueil. Although with Clos Nouveau's recent ascension, that may be changing.
So it sounds like my acquaintance was voicing a pretty common view among French wine nerds regarding Collier, whether or not it's objectively "correct." He was quite the fan himself.

Btw, he also mentioned that Lenoir, from Chinon, had become super-expensive in France. Don't know if you've seen any indication of that or not. (I was told elsewhere that Lenior's not producing wine anymore for some reason, so if true, maybe that's part of the reason.)

I dearly hope the (Antoine) Sanzay wine shows well. (Or at least that it doesn't crush your vinous soul the way the last one apparently did.) The bottles I opened were very good, and not in a way that seemed like it would be especially polarizing. To be a bit facetious, I consider them another Loire cf producer whose wines can be served in polite company.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#297 Post by Richard T r i m p i » May 19th, 2020, 9:25 am

eweininger wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 9:16 am
Btw, he also mentioned that Lenoir, from Chinon, had become super-expensive in France. Don't know if you've seen any indication of that or not. (I was told elsewhere that Lenior's not producing wine anymore for some reason, so if true, maybe that's part of the reason.)
So the bottle of 2002 A&J Lenoir les Roches in the cellar is worth more than $25? Bought it on a tip from Cave Auge about 10 years ago.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#298 Post by eweininger » May 19th, 2020, 10:00 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 9:25 am
So the bottle of 2002 A&J Lenoir les Roches in the cellar is worth more than $25? Bought it on a tip from Cave Auge about 10 years ago.

RT
Well, I just went a-googling, and...behold: a new unicorn doth appear.

The graph is actually pretty exquisite.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#299 Post by Richard T r i m p i » May 19th, 2020, 10:16 am

eweininger wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 10:00 am
Richard T r i m p i wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 9:25 am
So the bottle of 2002 A&J Lenoir les Roches in the cellar is worth more than $25? Bought it on a tip from Cave Auge about 10 years ago.
RT
Well, I just went a-googling, and...behold: a new unicorn doth appear.
The graph is actually pretty exquisite.
Wow. I really don't understand wine.

RT

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#300 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 19th, 2020, 11:59 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 8:38 am
eweininger wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 1:06 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 11:47 am
Are Collier's reds worth their current asking prices, in folks' opinions? I'm seeing mostly $70 - $80. That's pretty pricey for the region ...

And, if I can be allowed a brief detour into whites: are Collier's whites "worth it"? For their Samur blanc, I'm seeing $42 - $55, depending on vintage.
If I understand right, Collier has two bottlings each of red and white, from different sites (with vines of different ages): La Ripaille, which retails here for $45-ish, and La Charpentrie, which retails here for $75-ish.

I'm sure that those prices, in part, reflect some reputational value from the Foucault name. To say nothing of the trendiness of Saumur/Saumur-Champigny, in general (e.g. this).

I've only tried one, a 2011 Collier La Ripaille rouge, which I found pretty impressive. I've been looking to buy some of the wines to further see what they're like and how they age, perhaps also motivated by a conversation with a guy I met who's itb in France, and who felt strongly that the Collier wines (white and red) are some of--if not the--best from the Loire, and are becoming increasingly difficult to find in France. (I believe that Julian, who lives nears Paris, has reported in this thread that people there chase them pretty hard there.)

That said, I'm going slowly. CT shows brett complaints in a few vintages of La Charpentrie rouge, for what that's worth. More generally, my feeling is that while S-C reds really do have a somewhat different profile from those of Chinon/Bourgueil/SNdB, it's not clear to me (yet) whether the trendy ones warrant prices significantly higher than the best of those regions, and if so which ones.
I've never tried a Collier red (or white) and unless I get lucky, I'm unlikely to do so. Whenever they come on the market, they go in minutes and at auction, the prices have skyrocketed. The Charpentrie 2013 (yes, 2013!) sold for 102€ in April, the 2012 for between 120 and 150€. La Ripaille is cheaper - around 40€, but just as hard to get.
I'm told they're very good, but whether or not they're worth that much I don't know. Obviously, compared to Clos Rougeard, they're not expensive, which probably explains why they are so sought after. I suspect speculation rather than taste to be the driving factor behind the success.

Thanks for the link to the article - very interesting, I didn't know that S-C was so trendy! By coincidence, I'm tasting a 2014 Les Poyeux by one of the producers mentioned, Dominique Joseph, with the same by Antoine Sanzay over three nights, starting last night, which I'll report back on later this week.

Their taste profile is different, but my gut feeling is that many S-Cs are over-priced compared to the top Chinons and even more so compared to Bourgueil. Although with Clos Nouveau's recent ascension, that may be changing.
Re: Collier, it’s not so surprising that Antoine Foucault’s wines would eventually go up in price. Saumur has become trendy. In view of the trends, domaines like Filleatreau are very well priced still. For now.

If trends in wine continue, I would expect retail Chinon and Bourgueil prices among the best domaines to continue their climb too. Especially in the secondary market.

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