What would your classification of Loire reds be?

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Julian Marshall
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#151 Post by Julian Marshall » March 9th, 2020, 12:20 pm

G Kramer wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 9:21 am
Julian Marshall wrote:
March 8th, 2020, 7:43 am
I've never tried Nau Frères - another one to look out for, especially as their prices are attractive.
If you visit the area, I can help arrange a personal tour and tasting.
Thanks Greg, good to know!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#152 Post by Jason T » March 10th, 2020, 10:54 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 8th, 2020, 6:02 am
Thierry Germain is on the cusp of second. In fact, a recent Les Memoires - an excellent wine from an amazing old vine vineyard, is every bit as good as what’s coming out of the second growth producers.
I loved the Germain whites I tried last year and so based on that loaded up on the 18 rouge when they came out a few weeks ago. Picked up 6 each of the Terre Chaude, Les Memoires and Franc de Pied.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#153 Post by James Billy » March 10th, 2020, 11:16 pm

Hmmm. I think the model used above is the righy appriach.

What is this Burgundy vineyard classification that people refer to? I thought PPP was the way in Burgundy. When everyone talks of following the Burgundians, the drinkers of Burgundy subscribe to the Bordeaux model!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#154 Post by Richard T r i m p i » March 19th, 2020, 2:08 pm

Just popped open a 2017 Philippe Alliet Chinon. Base bottling. My first experience with the producer. Wow, talk about QPR! Boysenberry, red plum, mild spice, lovely brightness, appealing pure fruit attack, a touch of minerality. Very well balanced. Gentle tannins. No oak (cement tanks). Bargain at $23 for the level of quality.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#155 Post by eweininger » March 22nd, 2020, 6:05 am

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 2:08 pm
Just popped open a 2017 Philippe Alliet Chinon. Base bottling. My first experience with the producer. Wow, talk about QPR! Boysenberry, red plum, mild spice, lovely brightness, appealing pure fruit attack, a touch of minerality. Very well balanced. Gentle tannins. No oak (cement tanks). Bargain at $23 for the level of quality.

RT
Glad you enjoyed the Alliet. This is very similar to my reaction. I’d humbly suggest hunting down a bottle of the Vielles Vignes cuvée if possible. It’s a real step up in terms of complexity, but still drinks well young (unlike l’Huisserie and the Coteau de Noire, in my limited experience).
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#156 Post by Sean S y d n e y » April 8th, 2020, 3:01 pm

Just opened a bottle of Yannick Amirault 2015 La Mine I bought from a local restaurant on the recommendation of this thread - really nice! Probably the product of a nice robust vintage since there's not much green to speak of, but great silky texture, really nice & fresh red fruit with a subtle earthy/dusty underpinning and a tart crunchy finish. Thanks for the heads up!
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#157 Post by eweininger » April 9th, 2020, 8:17 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 3:01 pm
Just opened a bottle of Yannick Amirault 2015 La Mine I bought from a local restaurant on the recommendation of this thread - really nice! Probably the product of a nice robust vintage since there's not much green to speak of, but great silky texture, really nice & fresh red fruit with a subtle earthy/dusty underpinning and a tart crunchy finish. Thanks for the heads up!
Glad to hear this showed well. From what I understand, La Mine is a mainly gravel site located near the Les Malgagnes vineyard in St. Nicolas de Bourgueil. Distribution of this cuvée is pretty spotty in the US; I think I’ve only had it once, from an earlier vintage.

My sense is that the 2015 vintage is ripe to the point that, while not without a sense of freshness, many wines “struggle” to show the characteristic aromas and flavors that (for better or for worse) distinguish Loire cf in most people’s eyes—very much including the herbal, leafy, “green,” etc. ones. Very good wines, but maybe a bit tame, depending on what you’re looking for.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#158 Post by Corentin C. » April 14th, 2020, 11:09 am

Just had a 2018 Saumur-Champigny from Château de Parnay, Cuvée Le Blason de Parnay - 100% Cab Franc. Concentrated, warm, with a lot of extraction. Flavors leaning more towards darker fruit than classic red berries. Definitely some earthy notes and the signature pyrazines bell pepper aromas of the varietal. Medium-plus level of tannins, and grippy. A high acidity than ponderate the warmth and gives balance.
This wine was very good to drink now but has the potential to age 2 to 5 years.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#159 Post by Max S. » April 14th, 2020, 4:32 pm

This thread is incredibly helpful, thanks everyone who contributes!
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#160 Post by Sean S y d n e y » April 14th, 2020, 5:21 pm

eweininger wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 8:17 am
Glad to hear this showed well. From what I understand, La Mine is a mainly gravel site located near the Les Malgagnes vineyard in St. Nicolas de Bourgueil. Distribution of this cuvée is pretty spotty in the US; I think I’ve only had it once, from an earlier vintage.

My sense is that the 2015 vintage is ripe to the point that, while not without a sense of freshness, many wines “struggle” to show the characteristic aromas and flavors that (for better or for worse) distinguish Loire cf in most people’s eyes—very much including the herbal, leafy, “green,” etc. ones. Very good wines, but maybe a bit tame, depending on what you’re looking for.
This was definitely an "unchallenging" wine, but still quite delicious and you could probably peg it for a Cabernet Franc blind if you concentrated hard enough :) . I'd be interested to try the cuvée in a more typical year - if that even exists anymore - but as someone who often has issues with pyrazine qualities in wine (green pepper is one of my least favourite flavours/foods) this was really pleasant to drink.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#161 Post by Josh Grossman » April 14th, 2020, 6:23 pm

Picked up some Olga Raffault because of this thread. I was surprised that it looks like many of their '16 and '17s have yet to be released. I realized long before this thread that I love Loire reds and didn't have enough. Thanks for helping me remedy that. My top wine from '19 was probably 1988 C.P. Breton Chinon Beaumont that I picked up from Envoyer for pennies.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#162 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 14th, 2020, 7:12 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
April 14th, 2020, 6:23 pm
Picked up some Olga Raffault because of this thread. I was surprised that it looks like many of their '16 and '17s have yet to be released. I realized long before this thread that I love Loire reds and didn't have enough. Thanks for helping me remedy that. My top wine from '19 was probably 1988 C.P. Breton Chinon Beaumont that I picked up from Envoyer for pennies.
They have always released late.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#163 Post by eweininger » April 15th, 2020, 5:04 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
April 14th, 2020, 5:21 pm

This was definitely an "unchallenging" wine, but still quite delicious and you could probably peg it for a Cabernet Franc blind if you concentrated hard enough :) . I'd be interested to try the cuvée in a more typical year - if that even exists anymore - but as someone who often has issues with pyrazine qualities in wine (green pepper is one of my least favourite flavours/foods) this was really pleasant to drink.
Have you had a chance to try anything from Alliet? Very clean, pyrazine-free wines that still exhibit a lot of the savory flavors that distinguish Loire cf, at least imho. They really seem like they’d align well with your tastes. I kind of wonder whether amirault may be trying to move in a similar direction.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#164 Post by Matt Iverson » April 16th, 2020, 2:03 am

I realize that this might take this thread in a different direction than perhaps intended....but a large part of the appeal of the Loire for me is its LACK of such a classification.

There are by all means some truly special vineyards, but it's already possible to appreciate those sites without the overlay of a ranking system. Could be I just like the anarchy for its own sake...but I also think that it accurately mirrors how the vignerons there may see themselves, i.e. not so much all in one big race to the top, but clusters of producers each going their various ways. Vive la différence, non?

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#165 Post by eweininger » April 16th, 2020, 6:41 am

Matt Iverson wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 2:03 am
I realize that this might take this thread in a different direction than perhaps intended....but a large part of the appeal of the Loire for me is its LACK of such a classification.

There are by all means some truly special vineyards, but it's already possible to appreciate those sites without the overlay of a ranking system. Could be I just like the anarchy for its own sake...but I also think that it accurately mirrors how the vignerons there may see themselves, i.e. not so much all in one big race to the top, but clusters of producers each going their various ways. Vive la différence, non?
This is a great point.

I don’t want to speak for other participants, and certainly not Julian (who proposed the idea and started the thread), but I think the motivating idea was one of discovering how much consensus there is among board participants, as opposed to the creation of some kind of official imprimatur that could be stamped on labels. At least that’s how I’ve read it—the Bordeaux classification analogy is more of a plot device than anything else.

That said, I’d like to reformulate your question a bit. Given the elevation of Rougeard and the success of the Foucault disciples, and given the success of producers like Baudry in building an audience, fighting their way onto restaurant lists, etc.—can an “anarchic” orientation still prevail? Or could there be a homogenizing effect?
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#166 Post by Richard T r i m p i » April 16th, 2020, 7:26 am

With the exception of Rougeard, IMHO this thread mostly shows what a toss up it is between preferences for quality Loire Red producers. I've found it good fun and a window in to some great QPRs. Been exploring more Alliet and Joguet wines. There's a bottle of 2015 Joguet La Cure in the Fridge right now and it's quite satisfying!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#167 Post by Julian Marshall » April 16th, 2020, 7:45 am

Hi all,

Elliot, you got it. As I wrote in the first sentence "There has never been a classification of Loire wines and there probably never will be, which is just as well for our wallets."!

It was just a means of pooling resources and experiences. Many are new to Loire reds and it's tough deciding which ones to try. Whereas some regions have a plethora of critics, far too many even, others are almost completely ignored - the Loire being one of the latter. Chris Kissack does an excellent job but he's on his own, in every way, although Vinous is supposed to be publishing a report sometime soon. There are dozens of very experienced and talented tasters on WB who can provide great insight.

The Loire is a bit anarchic, and that is part of its appeal, I agree: there are practically no corporate owners, producers are very much free to do what they like, unless they offend the dreaded INAO. This means great dynamism and diversity of styles and tastes. But a lot of that anarchy is just B.S. - who would seriously want to sell their "Cuvée du Chien Fou" for 5 euros if they could sell a La Charpentrie for 55 euros? Just like anywhere else, prices create an unofficial classification - but what is interesting is getting to know which producers are making 55 euros quality wine for 20 euros - people like Raffault, for example.

Of course it's not all about money - the fun part is understanding which wines are likely to be to one's own taste, without having to buy a case and wait for ten years. By reading people's comments and suggestions here, you can get a pretty good idea of which producers are traditional, for example, and which are not. Likewise, you can see that some producers' top wines are not necessarily everyone's favourites, because the Loire is in fact closer to the Burgundy model than the Bordeaux one.

Another problem in the Loire is the lack of older vintages available for verticals. Unlike in Bordeaux, a journalist visiting the Loire is unlikely to be able to taste a massive number of older vintages, because most producers need to sell as much as they can. Chris Kissack's tastings of older vintages come almost always from his own cellar. So if there are few professional reviews of new releases, there are practically none of older ones. So again, the insight of WB tasters is invaluable.

So yes, that was my original intention, to gather information and form a mutually beneficial consensus, nothing more. Apart from us, nobody else is going to read this stuff!

But as Richard rightly says, even the idea of a consensus has been shown as B.S.! For every berserker who prefers a Clos de la Dioterie, there will be another who prefers a Chêne Vert, or a Clos de L'Echo over a Coteau de Noiré - but the point is knowing why! That is the value of this thread IMHO.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#168 Post by Sean S y d n e y » April 16th, 2020, 7:54 am

eweininger wrote:
April 15th, 2020, 5:04 am
Have you had a chance to try anything from Alliet? Very clean, pyrazine-free wines that still exhibit a lot of the savory flavors that distinguish Loire cf, at least imho. They really seem like they’d align well with your tastes. I kind of wonder whether amirault may be trying to move in a similar direction.
I have not! But thank you for the tip, I'll absolutely keep my eyes open.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#169 Post by Troy Stark » April 16th, 2020, 10:29 am

So, we had our first experience with Baudry last night when we opened a bottle of 2015 Le Clos Guillot. Based on this experience, Baudry wouldn't make any sort of ranking in our house. The wine was undrinkable due to a heavy amount of dirty, smelly Brett - not the pleasant kind. We dumped it. We have one more bottle, but our general rule is that we don't buy from producers once we've encountered heavy Brett in a bottle. Just not a risk we're willing to take.

Decided to pop a bottle of Savage Grace Copeland Vineyard CF instead, which was lithe, perfumed, silky, and gorgeous. Not sure if any of you have tried it, but it's cheap and delicious Loire-style CF.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#170 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 16th, 2020, 10:52 am

Troy Stark wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 10:29 am
So, we had our first experience with Baudry last night when we opened a bottle of 2015 Le Clos Guillot. Based on this experience, Baudry wouldn't make any sort of ranking in our house. The wine was undrinkable due to a heavy amount of dirty, smelly Brett - not the pleasant kind. We dumped it. We have one more bottle, but our general rule is that we don't buy from producers once we've encountered heavy Brett in a bottle. Just not a risk we're willing to take.

Decided to pop a bottle of Savage Grace Copeland Vineyard CF instead, which was lithe, perfumed, silky, and gorgeous. Not sure if any of you have tried it, but it's cheap and delicious Loire-style CF.
Troy what other Loire CFs do you drink?

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#171 Post by Troy Stark » April 16th, 2020, 11:06 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 10:52 am
Troy what other Loire CFs do you drink?
The honest answer is "not many." We're much more experienced with Loire Chenin, than CF, but have recently started exploring Loire reds as the prices on our favorite red burgs continue to climb into the stratosphere. So far, our favorites have been Olga Raffault and Antoine Sanzay, who both seem to make "clean" wines.

We don't mind, in fact we like, a touch of stems or green pepper/pyrazine, but Brett is a deal breaker for us. If Brett is typical of Baudry, we'll stay away. Would appreciate knowing other producers we might like given our aversion to Brett.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#172 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 16th, 2020, 11:28 am

That’s ironic, Raffault. I love love Raffault but it generally has a much higher incidence of Brett than other more new generation producers, and I include Baudry in that. I find Baudry to be quite clean, and I drink tons of it. Now mind you, I’m a bit more Brett tolerant than most and do like some funk, I just don’t find much of it in Baudry. I would encourage you to try another, like the Croix Boissee and see if you just had an off-bottle. It could be that you just got a stank bottle, or are just really are Brett intolerant, sorta the way I am with new oak, American oak and high ABV.

And good luck, it’s a wonderful region to explore! I think Domaine Roche Neuve (Thierry Germain) night for your bill. For my palate, his wines are super clean. And tasty. He’s on a serious upswing in quality and picking up truly killer vineyards.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#173 Post by Troy Stark » April 16th, 2020, 11:48 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 11:28 am
That’s ironic, Raffault. I love love Raffault but it generally has a much higher incidence of Brett than other more new generation producers, and I include Baudry in that. I find Baudry to be quite clean, and I drink tons of it. Now mind you, I’m a bit more Brett tolerant than most and do like some funk, I just don’t find much of it in Baudry. I would encourage you to try another, like the Croix Boissee and see if you just had an off-bottle. It could be that you just got a stank bottle, or are just really are Brett intolerant, sorta the way I am with new oak, American oak and high ABV.

And good luck, it’s a wonderful region to explore! I think Domaine Roche Neuve (Thierry Germain) night for your bill. For my palate, his wines are super clean. And tasty. He’s on a serious upswing in quality and picking up truly killer vineyards.
Thanks for the suggestion. [cheers.gif]

Our breadth of experience with any one producer is very limited, so it could simply be that the bottle of Raffault we had was as uncharacteristically clean as the Baudry was dirty. We have another bottle of the Baudry, so perhaps that one will be better, but due to our disdain for Brett, they will be the last bottles we purchase. Perhaps we'll steer clear of Raffault, as well.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#174 Post by Troy Stark » April 16th, 2020, 12:10 pm

Curious about Breton - are the wines clean or no?
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#175 Post by Matt Iverson » April 16th, 2020, 12:12 pm

eweininger wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 6:41 am

I don’t want to speak for other participants, and certainly not Julian (who proposed the idea and started the thread), but I think the motivating idea was one of discovering how much consensus there is among board participants, as opposed to the creation of some kind of official imprimatur that could be stamped on labels. At least that’s how I’ve read it—the Bordeaux classification analogy is more of a plot device than anything else.

That said, I’d like to reformulate your question a bit. Given the elevation of Rougeard and the success of the Foucault disciples, and given the success of producers like Baudry in building an audience, fighting their way onto restaurant lists, etc.—can an “anarchic” orientation still prevail? Or could there be a homogenizing effect?
I've certainly been accused of taking things too literally in the past - but yeah, I think I saw that it was more about "what's the consensus on top producers" than about lobbying the INAO! :-)

On to the question you asked..."Can an anarchic orientation still prevail?" I think so! For one, everyone's responses show how wide a spectrum there is of preferred styles, and on a similar token a wide spectrum of tolerance for brett. Such a broad and varied consumer response would seem to leave it wide open to vignerons to stretch out in all sorts of stylistic directions. The biggest influence of such folks like Rougeard - or even lower down the cost ladder, someone like Alliet, who openly names Bordeaux as a big influence in his approach - is that their success pushes all producers towards better quality: more careful farming, for sure, and probably in lots of cases much cleaner cellar work (even with the über-natural folks, one would hope). But towards more homogeneity...I dunno. I don't think I've seen that happening yet, in any case.

But are other folks noticing a homogenizing trend? We don't sell that much Loire here in AK, not nearly as much as I wish in any case, as it would give me an excuse to drink more....so I could be missing out on some aspects.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#176 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 16th, 2020, 12:23 pm

Troy Stark wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 12:10 pm
Curious about Breton - are the wines clean or no?
Personally I think Breton is more old school like Raffault. I should clarify that while I used the word “clean” in some posts, I don’t actually like that term applied here as it suggests others are “dirty”. Breton is a stellar producer, but yes, it can at times have Brett. Go with their Franc de Pied, I think that might be your best bet, and they can be delicious.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#177 Post by Matt Iverson » April 16th, 2020, 12:43 pm

I agree with Robert, Breton is old-school and exceptional!...but some Brett can show from time to time. And I believe that their use of sulfur definitely changes from wine to wine, as the wines intended for immediate drinking ("Trinch" and the "La Dilettante" lineup) have very little sulfur, to none. But I've gulped, guzzled, and slurped down many a bottle of those and really had very very few problematic bottles. More often I see a bottle that shows reductive when popped, which of course is much easier fixed than Brett - a solid swirl of the glass and and a minute or two, and they are usually good to go.

I know this is a "Loire reds" thread, but given we're talking Breton, I think it's worth a shout-out for the Vouvray Brut - way more than just a sparkler to start a meal with! Appley, with sweet straw and that kind of musky honey quality that I (and pretty sure lots of others) totally dig in a Chenin, and that really gives it dimension and contour. A bottle of that with Thai takeout and a Claire Denis film...there are worse ways to shelter in place ;-0

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#178 Post by Richard T r i m p i » April 16th, 2020, 1:03 pm

Troy Stark wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 12:10 pm
Curious about Breton - are the wines clean or no?
Sometimes. I had a small batch of corked Franc de Pied several years ago. Raffault typically tends to be funkier IMHO. I find them midway between Baudry and Raffault. I'm a fan.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#179 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 16th, 2020, 1:12 pm

Richard T r i m p i wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 1:03 pm
Troy Stark wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 12:10 pm
Curious about Breton - are the wines clean or no?
Sometimes. I had a small batch of corked Franc de Pied several years ago. Raffault typically tends to be funkier IMHO. I find them midway between Baudry and Raffault. I'm a fan.

RT
Corked is an entirely different thing, however. And its so damn random. I just had it on a new Bordeaux purchase, blew $100. And the bottle and cork looked so pristine.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#180 Post by JC J o u a s » April 16th, 2020, 3:13 pm

For those interested and/or wondering, the 2015 Olga Rauffault Les Picasses has landed here in the metro NY area at the end of March and I think the 25% tariffs on French wines under 14% alcohol was the direct cause of the $5 increase year over year but regardless; this still remains one of the greatest wine values in the world of fine wine.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#181 Post by eweininger » April 17th, 2020, 7:29 am

Julian Marshall wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 7:45 am
... the Loire is in fact closer to the Burgundy model than the Bordeaux one.
In addition to the absence of an official cru system, one of the ways the central Loire differs from Burgundy is that most of best sites are, functionally, monopoles. How many different producers offer a bottling of Les Preuses? AFAIK, there’s nothing remotely like that anywhere in the Loire (maybe one or two Sancerre sites come closest?).

One consequence of this is to deprive Loire fans of the chance to nerd out the way Burgundy fans do, by trying to partial out site/vineyard characteristics from producer and vintage ones.

Anyway, this got me wondering how many high-quality sites are worked by multiple producers. I could only come up with a couple.* Hopefully others can add to or correct my meager list.

Les Picasses (Chinon)
Olga Raffault
J. M. Raffault
Coulaine—the eponymous cuvee plus the hard-to-find La Diablesse
Breton—do they still make this? Where can I get some?
Laurent Lebled—no idea who this is; Google found it for me

Les Perrieres (Bourgueil)
Breton
Domaine de la Butte

Les Poyeux (Saumur-Champigny)
Rougeard
Antoine Sanzay
Domaine des Sanzay—again, no idea about this one; Google found it

That’s all I’ve got.




*I know nothing at all about Loire Valley geography, and am essentially dependent on labels. I also realize that vineyard boundary lines can be affected by commercial pressure, political pressure, dynastic squabbles, etc. Anyone with a more concrete understanding of particular sites is especially welcome to chime in.
Last edited by eweininger on April 17th, 2020, 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#182 Post by Julian Marshall » April 17th, 2020, 8:51 am

You're quite right, Elliot, it hadn't occurred to me - but then I'm not a Burgundy fan! I had too many disappointments with Burgundies to ever get hooked, but that's my funeral.

I can only think of a couple of examples for your list:

Clos Sénéchal, Bourgueil - Breton, of course but also Maison Audebert - but the latter is of no interest, I tried one!

La Croix Boissée, Chinon - Baudry, obviously, but also Béatrice et Pascal Lambert, Domaine Gouron, and Domaine de l'R (F.Sigonneau), all of which are supposed to be good. I think there are more producers actually.

I've never heard of Domaine des Sanzay - I imagine they are cousins of Antoine or something like that.

BTW for Troy - I think Robert's idea of Rcohes-Neuves is spot on. I'm trying one tonight so I'll report back on any brett.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#183 Post by eweininger » April 17th, 2020, 9:54 am

Thanks very much for this Julian. I didn't know about any of the other producers making wine from la Croix Boissee. I've had one or two Lambert wines before (quite good, if i recall), and I think I've seen some l'R wines around, but it doesn't appear that any of the Croix Boissee bottlings make it to the US--which is too bad; it'd be fun to put together a horizontal tasting. If you manage to try any, please post a note.

I have my first Antoine Sanzay cued up for tonight or tomorrow.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#184 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 2:09 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 16th, 2020, 11:28 am
And good luck, it’s a wonderful region to explore! I think Domaine Roche Neuve (Thierry Germain) night for your bill. For my palate, his wines are super clean. And tasty. He’s on a serious upswing in quality and picking up truly killer vineyards.
Just opened a 2013 Marginale, which is my 3rd bottle of Roches Neuves ever & in the last month. I’ve never had Rougeard, but these wines are the best examples of Loire Cab Franc I’ve ever had. These really feel closer to Burgundy in spirit than to Right Bank Bordeaux. I’m voting for Roches Neuves as at least 1st among equals in the 2nd tier.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#185 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 17th, 2020, 2:17 pm

That’s pretty cool Nick, especially considering 2013 is not even a strong vintage in Loire. The 2014s by Thierry Germain are quite nice.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#186 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:17 pm
That’s pretty cool Nick, especially considering 2013 is not even a strong vintage in Loire. The 2014s by Thierry Germain are quite nice.
My thoughts exactly! I’m backfilling everything I can find from 2014-2018. BTW, it was your endorsement that turned me on to this producer (in addition to Baudry, Gonon and others), so thanks for everything, and feel free to invoice Jayson Cohen for your time.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#187 Post by joz€f p1nxten » April 17th, 2020, 2:48 pm

So I tried the baudry croix boissee 2015 today. No overt bret, sufficiently ripe for my palate. Beautiful nose with a touch of bell pepper, on the palate a bit more angular, rustic than the roches neuves from 15 and 16 I have tried. I'd consider this closer to Rougeard in style than roches neuves. Good wine, and happy I bought this blindly.
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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#188 Post by Greg Mitrakas » April 17th, 2020, 3:06 pm

Thank you to all the posters for this incredibly useful and informative thread. I only now realized that this section of my cellar is woefully under represented. Not having a lot of experience with most of these producers, based on this thread, I picked up a mixed case of Baudry, Breton, and Olga Raffault. I plan to enjoy a couple young to see what their fruit is like and cellar to enjoy in the future. Meanwhile, in the spirit of this thread, I am going to open my orphan of 1996 Charles Joguet Chinon Clos de la Dioterie and will report back. Thanks again and enjoy your weekends!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#189 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 3:14 pm

Greg Mitrakas wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 3:06 pm
Thank you to all the posters for this incredibly useful and informative thread. I only now realized that this section of my cellar is woefully under represented. Not having a lot of experience with most of these producers, based on this thread, I picked up a mixed case of Baudry, Breton, and Olga Raffault. I plan to enjoy a couple young to see what their fruit is like and cellar to enjoy in the future. Meanwhile, in the spirit of this thread, I am going to open my orphan of 1996 Charles Joguet Chinon Clos de la Dioterie and will report back. Thanks again and enjoy your weekends!
This has been a fantastic thread, and completely devoid of the vitriol that eventually creeps into many Berserker discussions. Look forward to the report on the 96 Joguet!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#190 Post by Matt Iverson » April 17th, 2020, 3:21 pm

Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:17 pm
That’s pretty cool Nick, especially considering 2013 is not even a strong vintage in Loire. The 2014s by Thierry Germain are quite nice.
My thoughts exactly! I’m backfilling everything I can find from 2014-2018. BTW, it was your endorsement that turned me on to this producer (in addition to Baudry, Gonon and others), so thanks for everything, and feel free to invoice Jayson Cohen for your time.
I think the ripeness of 2015 and 2016 has been a boon to Loire reds finding a wider audience. And in fact I've also found that the lower-entry village wines from those two vintages have been knockouts, in much the same way that 2015 in Burgundy led to normally marginal sites making exceptional and compelling wines. When it comes to stocking up on recent vintages from the Loire, from my vantage point there is an incredible wealth of producers worth considering:

Richou
Villeneuve
Baumard
Alliet
Fillieatreau
Chateau Yvonne
Jacky Blot

...and plenty more, alongside the usual favorites. And some of the co-ops, like Les Vignerons de Saumur, made wines that are crazy good for their prices!

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#191 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 17th, 2020, 4:48 pm

I agree, Matt.

I still prefer, as in Bordeaux, the more classic vintages, but these riper vintages are great for the lower tier wines. The Baudry base cuvee 2016 was insanely good, I bought and have literally already gone through two cases. That said, I think Baudry’s flagship wines are better in 2014. I have some 2014 Rougeard staring me in the face right now. May have to be a quarantine pull this weekend.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#192 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 17th, 2020, 5:52 pm

Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:17 pm
That’s pretty cool Nick, especially considering 2013 is not even a strong vintage in Loire. The 2014s by Thierry Germain are quite nice.
My thoughts exactly! I’m backfilling everything I can find from 2014-2018. BTW, it was your endorsement that turned me on to this producer (in addition to Baudry, Gonon and others), so thanks for everything, and feel free to invoice Jayson Cohen for your time.
What did I do? No doubt I will accept your fees but I have to clear conflicts first.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#193 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 17th, 2020, 5:54 pm

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:48 pm
So I tried the baudry croix boissee 2015 today. No overt bret, sufficiently ripe for my palate. Beautiful nose with a touch of bell pepper, on the palate a bit more angular, rustic than the roches neuves from 15 and 16 I have tried. I'd consider this closer to Rougeard in style than roches neuves. Good wine, and happy I bought this blindly.
Needs time. Many stunners at 10+ years.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#194 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 5:58 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 5:52 pm
Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:17 pm
That’s pretty cool Nick, especially considering 2013 is not even a strong vintage in Loire. The 2014s by Thierry Germain are quite nice.
My thoughts exactly! I’m backfilling everything I can find from 2014-2018. BTW, it was your endorsement that turned me on to this producer (in addition to Baudry, Gonon and others), so thanks for everything, and feel free to invoice Jayson Cohen for your time.
What did I do? No doubt I will accept your fees but I have to clear conflicts first.
Unless he’s working pro-bono, I can’t afford his hourly rate.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#195 Post by Jayson Cohen » April 17th, 2020, 6:01 pm

Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 5:58 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 5:52 pm
Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 2:42 pm


My thoughts exactly! I’m backfilling everything I can find from 2014-2018. BTW, it was your endorsement that turned me on to this producer (in addition to Baudry, Gonon and others), so thanks for everything, and feel free to invoice Jayson Cohen for your time.
What did I do? No doubt I will accept your fees but I have to clear conflicts first.
Unless he’s working pro-bono, I can’t afford his hourly rate.
If “he“ is “me”, that’s probably true. I couldn’t afford my hourly rates either.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#196 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 17th, 2020, 6:02 pm

It’s value, baby. Don’t worry about the rate, think about the value. Kinda like drinking Rougeard. Or Petrus.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#197 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 6:04 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 6:01 pm
Nick Ellis wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 5:58 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 5:52 pm


What did I do? No doubt I will accept your fees but I have to clear conflicts first.
Unless he’s working pro-bono, I can’t afford his hourly rate.
If “he“ is “me”, that’s probably true. I couldn’t afford my hourly rates either.
I couldn’t afford either one of you. Appreciate both your your rec’s all the same.

:)

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#198 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 17th, 2020, 6:06 pm

Nick, ask Jayson what the acronym of his sterling law firm is. It’s the best.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#199 Post by Nick Ellis » April 17th, 2020, 6:08 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 17th, 2020, 6:06 pm
Nick, ask Jayson what the acronym of his sterling law firm is. It’s the best.
Jayson:

What is the acronym of your sterling firm? Asking for a friend.

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Re: What would your classification of Loire reds be?

#200 Post by eweininger » April 17th, 2020, 6:08 pm

Based on a first look, I’d have to say Antoine Sanzay deserves a significant place in the rankings. The domaine bottling is pretty impressive.
Elliot

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