A classification, vintages and impressions of Loire reds

If you are discovering this thread, which I started back in January 2020, the initial idea was to gather people’s opinions about which Loire reds were the best (mostly Cabernet Francs). It developed into a compilation of notes and general impressions, somewhere to look for info on the wines.

From my point of view, this thread has been also a voyage of discovery. I got into Loire reds about 15 years ago after one bottle too many of overripe, over-priced Bordeaux. I still love the latter, which constitutes 60% of my cellar, but the Loire has gone from nowhere to over 30%, mostly the reds which feature in the thread.

During the life of the thread, several people have asked me also about vintages. I have drawn up a very imperfect guide which is at the end of this post. It is only based on my own experiences and impressions, so approach it with caution.

One thing is however very clear. Since 2014, with the possible exception of 2021, the Loire has enjoyed an unprecedented run of very good or excellent vintages. There has never been a better time to try them. Even the best wines from the best vintages are accessible young and they age as beautifully as any other top wine from anywhere else. I have discovered myself that their “plâteaux” are much longer than I expected - wines that have seemed to be at full maturity, from older vintages that I wasn’t aware were that good, have remained in perfect condition a good five to ten years after I thought they would decline or even fall apart. Moreover, unlike further south, Loire reds have the ability to mature without losing any freshness.

Obviously, this thread does not seek to replace the work of true pros. If you really want to know everything about Loire reds and whites, plus Bordeaux, I strongly recommend Chris Kissack’s site: https://www.thewinedoctor.com/

Classification

There has never been a classification of Loire wines and there probably never will be, which is just as well for our wallets. The idea taken was to emulate the Bordeaux Médoc classification - which of course was a mistake - hindsight is a wonderful thing. It would have been better to focus on actual wines, rather than producers. But it does have the advantage of being less complicated than the Burgundy model.

First Growth

Clos Rougeard (Saumur-C)

Second Growths

Joguet, Baudry, Plouzeau (Touraine/Chinon - just on the basis of the Ante Phylloxera cuvée), D. du Collier (Saumur-C), P et R Gauthier/Domaine du Bel Air (Bourgueil)

Third Growths

Alliet, Olga Raffault (top QPR), C et P Breton (Bourgueil), Thierry Germain/Domaine des Roches Neuves (Saumur-C), La Porte Saint Jean (Saumur), Antoine Sanzay (Saumur-C), Lenoir - Les Roches, Coulaine, Yannick Amirault (Bourgueil), Sébastien David - Vin d’une Oreille (St.Nicolas de Bourgueil or VdeF depending on vintage)

Fourth Growths

Couly-Dutheil, Jacky Blot (Bourgueil), Chevalerie (Bourgueil), Hureau (Saumur-C), Villeneuve (Saumur C), Yvonne (Saumur-C), Fosse-Sèche (Saumur), Guion (Bourgueil) , Guiberteau (Saumur), Fabien Duveau (Saumur-C), Dom. de la Cotelleraie (St.Nicolas de B), Filliatreau (Saumur-C).

Fifth Growths

Domaine des Chesnaies (Bourgueil), F. Mabileau (St.Nicolas de B), Les Chesnaies – Le Puits Danaé, Pallus, Clau de Nell (Anjou)

All the unspecified ones are Chinons.

Vintages - 2000 to 2020

2000: not very good. I’ve only tried a few but they were underwhelming.

2001: much better than I expected and still holding up well, at least concerning the Couly-Dutheils.

2002: variable but the good ones have been very enjoyable (Jacky Blot, Couly-Dutheil, Alliet, Joguet, Villeneuve).

2003: what you would expect, unfortunately. Some have liked them a lot more than me. I still have a few - I’ve enjoyed some (again, Alliet, also Couly-Dutheil, Blot, Joguet and Baudry), but like Bordeaux, they are good in spite of the vintage rather than thanks to it.

2004: not bad but not very exciting. I tried all my usual suspects and have never felt like going back for more. I still have a few left.

2005: my jury is still out on this one. It’s a bit similar to the Bordeaux 2005 vintage - big, sturdy, sometimes surly wines which hopefully will eventually come round. I’ve had some enjoyable wines and I’ve got a good stock, but it’s not a vintage I’m looking to buy more of.

2006: better than I expected. The vintage was ruined by rain during the harvest and in some wines, it shows, but I’ve really enjoyed Alliet’s Coteau de Noiré and one or two others, which are less burly than the 05s yet still very fruity.

2007: nothing special. I’ve had a couple of good wines but I’d avoid it now.

2008: crisp, elegant wines rather than big and fruity, so I rather like it. Still plenty of life yet in the big guns and one to look out for.

2009: ripe, winsome and in the best wines, crisp enough to keep them honest, An excellent vintage.

2010: crisper and more taut than the 09s, perhaps slightly more classical, less exuberant in style. I’m enjoying them a lot now. Just as excellent as 2009.

2011 - mostly quite lean, with one or two exceptions (Clos de L’Echo by Couly Dutheil springs to mind - overripe and syrupy). Some very good wine though - like La Marginale. Coteau de Noiré, or Les Varennes.

2012 - much the same as most 2011s, some crisp, acidic wines which lack a little ripeness, but great if you enjoy the leaner type of CF.

2013 - one or two wines are OK (eg Chevalerie Grand Mont) but really, this is a vintage to avoid - mostly green, unripe and a poor QPR. In my experience at least, the worst of any vintage over the last twenty years.

2014 - a classic for Loire geeks, it has the ripeness lacking in the previous three, but not as much as the 2015. For me, in style it’s midway between 2011/12 and 2015. Excellent vintage, especially if you like them crisp and fresh.

2015 - ripe, but not excessively so and well worth looking at, it’s a good long-term bet. None of the wines I have tried have been OTT and I’m confident that the best will be exceptional.

2016 - similar to 2014, so very crisp and sappy, perhaps slightly riper, very promising

2017 - again, similar to 2014 and 2016 but the wines I have tried so far are just a smidgen riper than in 2016. Wines from some producers, like Yannick Amirault, are exceptional. It’s a vintage I’m still loading up on since the prices remain low.

2018 - riper than 2015 and of course 2014, 2016 and 2017. It is best to stick to the top names - the wines I have tried from Roches-Neuves or Baudry have been breathtakingly good but there are some gloopy wines from others. I’m optimistic that the best will turn out as well as the best in 2009.

2019 - I’ve only tried a few wines so far but my initial impression is that this is crisper, less exuberant than 2018.

2020 - I’ve tried one wine, so I can’t say for certain, but I think it’s along the same lines as 2019. Mathieu Baudry describes 2020 as being less rich than the three preceding ones, so perhaps closer to 2016?

2021 and 2022 - no idea! I suspect 2021 is not very good because of all the rain that year and that 2022 is another winner. Mathieu Baudry expects his 2021s to be drinking earlier than the preceding, riper vintages, so perhaps a better 2013?

One important thing to watch is the alcohol levels, especially in the riper vintages.

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I´ve never cared much about Loire reds - too green for me.
Even Clos Rougeard tasted twice didn´t move me at all, much better wine in Bordeaux right bank - at lower prices.

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Where would you place Antoine Sanzay? Personal favorite of ours.

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Based on their Eolithe and Pigeonnier cuvées I’d toss Chateau de Fosse-Seche (Saumur) somewhere in there around 4th growth, maybe higher depending on on how they age.

Robert - each to their own! I stopped buying RBs (well, especially St.Emilions) when their taste changed to something I didn’t like.

Troy - no idea, I’ve never tried his wines - what do you think compared to the others?

Glen - never tried that either, great idea!

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Plenty of names there that I should be looking for and drinking, given that I like Loire wines.
I also believe that there is still a much wider difference between Rougeard and the names in the 2nd Growths than in Bordeaux.

In any case, I’d up Olga Raffault one notch and add Filliatreau somewhere in the 3rd/4th.

Rougeard is like d’Yquem, a class unto itself.

Raffault has to be a Second Growth. IMHO, it has been producing more consistent wines, and some legendary ones like 1989 and 1990, more than Joguet has. Baudry is the Second Growth stalwart, such a range, such quality and consistent across the spectrum.

I would likely put Plouzeau Franc de Pied up there as a Second Growth. It is as good as Chinon gets, especially since 2009.

Filliatreau definitely in Third. Good stuff.

Well that was helpful to the OP. :wink:

So when you say right bank, do you mean St Em, Pomerol or both? Those with a Loire palate, like Julian and myself, will say St Em is a bloody ripe modernist disaster. Love me sum Pomerols, however!

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Lenoir in Chinon has become quite a thing in the natural wine scene in France - never tried it though so can’t judge.

Never had red Vatan but it goes for big prices.

Otherwise your list looks good. Remains to be seen whether Clos Rougeard will remain what it was now that the Foucaults are no longer involved.

Since when would you say that Joguet is up there in second tier?

I have a few cases of Thierry Germain in the cellar - consider a more polished version of cab franc than some others on the list, but well made

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Can be really great, but my last experience was three consecutive corked bottles of the 1989 in one night [head-bang.gif]

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Chris Kissack / The Wine Doctor has them at the top tier according to his scoring… probably last 3-4 years.

My experience with old Joguet (pre-Charles Joguet retirement… so probably 1996 and before) is also fabulous. Where it gets a bit more iffy is probably 1997-2013 or so, though obviously very subjective…

Domaine Guion. Unclassified, a la Sociando Mallet?

+1 for upping Plouzeau to 2nd growth, if not first.

I don’t know if I believe Rougeard is so much better than its siblings, despite its being priced that way but I’ve had not tasted it twice. A bit like Le Pin or Petrus - self-perpetuating hype.

Guion and Sanzay should be in the mix as well as Couly-Dutheuil. A lot of very good and honestly very similar wines out there for good value.

I’m sure there are some folks that have had tons more than me, but I’ve had maybe 20 or so of the Rougeard Les Clos and Les Pouyeaux from 2002, 03, 05, 07, 09 and 11. Some in comparative tastings with some killer mature Chinons, including 79, 89 and 90 Raffault, 90 Joguet Dioterie, 85 Lenoir. Rougeard is a cut above. I think Plouzeau Franc de Pied is way up there, especially in 2010, but still not same level. Only Chinon that is out at that level was the 2005 Joguet Franc de Pied.

Incidentally, I am sitting on several vintages of Le Bourg, but I’ve never tried one.

I am out now. Lost my allocation during this period of hype, and prices are crazy in the grey market.

I’d personally put Germain / Domaine des Roches Neuves in the 3è as well.

What about Domaine Guiberteau?

I think Rougeard is currently over priced, but still a step above anything else.
I love whites from Vatan and both Cotats, but have never been really convinced by their rouge (now Cotat rose on other hand)
I guess CRB can’t be included as defunct

So for me, sticking to producers I’ve had multiple times
First Growth

Clos Rougeard

Second Growths
Joguet, Baudry

Third Growths
Filliatreau ,C et P Breton, Olga Raffault, Thierry Germain Alliet

Fourth Growths
Yannick Amirault , Plouzeau ,Jacky Blot, Coulaine, , Hureau , Yvonne

Fifth Growths
Domaine des Chesnaies ,Couly-Dutheil ,Guion

For what it’s worth, if you happen to find yourself at Post Ranch Inn, their restaurant has verticals and horizontals of Rougeard at prices that are currently a little below retail. The issue is of course that you have to balance that against how much your room cost : )

Last time we stayed, we had a 2009 Les Poyeaux. I have learned not to bloviate to my girlfriend about what we’re drinking (too many Burg let downs). So she went in blind and thought it was one of the best wines she’s had in the last year.

But really, try the Eolithe. For $25 or so, it’s a real stand out.

G

Eolithe is excellent, and pardon the pun, a lithe little red-fruited beauty. Not profound, just right for what it is.

I struggle with Germain. Some killer vintages, and some wines, pretty excellent, while others a let down. I need more time to truly experience their recent old vine acquisitions and new bottlings. These could move it up to Second Growth in time.

Eolithe is widely available here. What vintage should I buy? Prices vary a bit but not much back to 2010.