Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

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YLee
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Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#1 Post by YLee » December 26th, 2019, 5:56 pm

How would you rank your top 5 CSD in order, best to least?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#2 Post by Jonathan Favre » December 26th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Good Q for sure. 1) Dujac, 2) Ponsot, 3) Arlaud, 4) Jadot, and 5) B.Leroux. The late 80s/early 90s Dujac versions really got me hooked..... The Ponsot VV is really nice - the '99 is especially built to please with more age. Arlaud is a new'ish one for me but the recent vintage bottles I've had are great! Jadot is always dependable - one of the GCs that is treated differently in the winery (more stem inclusion?). Benjamin Leroux is very new for me - some really nice results for me at least which has prompted me to buy for the long haul.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#3 Post by B. Buzzini » December 26th, 2019, 6:22 pm

Limited experience....Dujac tops.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#4 Post by Howard Cooper » December 26th, 2019, 7:44 pm

One of my favorites that has not been mentioned is Jouan.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#5 Post by Troy Stark » December 26th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
December 26th, 2019, 7:44 pm
One of my favorites that has not been mentioned is Jouan.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#6 Post by Gerhard P. » December 27th, 2019, 2:33 am

Ponsot (when it´s good, it not always is ...)
Dujac
Arlaud
Amiot (pre-2010) - Amiot-Servelle 2010+ not tasted
Heresztyn(-Mazzini)
(LeMoine - only tasted once, but outstanding)
Jadot
G.Lignier
Castagnier (older bottles from 80ies/90ies)
Charlopin
Coquard-Loison-Fleurot (good)
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#7 Post by Francois Olivier » December 27th, 2019, 4:07 am

I have tasted only dujac => amazing as usual

But Jadot, G.Lignier, Castagnier
not very bad but not very good
Wesh ma poule

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#8 Post by Stephen Williams » December 27th, 2019, 4:55 am

If aged sufficiently, Ponsot/ Dom Chezeaux TVV. The 1990 is just hitting its stride. The 99 needs another the decade. The 85 is extraordinary
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#9 Post by YLee » December 27th, 2019, 5:01 am

What do you guys think about J. Drouhin and Nicalos Potel's CSD?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#10 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 27th, 2019, 5:27 am

I recently picked up some Charlopin, will give it a shot. Some la justice from them too.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#11 Post by William Kelley » December 27th, 2019, 5:41 am

YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
What do you guys think about J. Drouhin and Nicalos Potel's CSD?
The Drouhin CSD comes from Jouan, he makes the wine and raises it in barrel for them, then they bottle it.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#12 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 27th, 2019, 6:09 am

How do the holdings compare to the Jouan ones?

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#13 Post by Frank Drew » December 27th, 2019, 6:51 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:41 am
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
What do you guys think about J. Drouhin and Nicalos Potel's CSD?
The Drouhin CSD comes from Jouan, he makes the wine and raises it in barrel for them, then they bottle it.
That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#14 Post by William Kelley » December 27th, 2019, 7:13 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 6:09 am
How do the holdings compare to the Jouan ones?
How do you mean?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#15 Post by Howard Cooper » December 27th, 2019, 7:28 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:41 am
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
What do you guys think about J. Drouhin and Nicalos Potel's CSD?
The Drouhin CSD comes from Jouan, he makes the wine and raises it in barrel for them, then they bottle it.
I bought 2005 CSD from Drouhin because it was easier to find than Jouan. Someday, it might actually be ready to drink. A friend has the 2005 Jouan. At some point, we hope to taste them side-by-side.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#16 Post by YLee » December 27th, 2019, 7:46 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 7:28 am
William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:41 am
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
What do you guys think about J. Drouhin and Nicalos Potel's CSD?
The Drouhin CSD comes from Jouan, he makes the wine and raises it in barrel for them, then they bottle it.
I bought 2005 CSD from Drouhin because it was easier to find than Jouan. Someday, it might actually be ready to drink. A friend has the 2005 Jouan. At some point, we hope to taste them side-by-side.
Doing a side by side with both Producers would be interesting. A verticle with both.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#17 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 27th, 2019, 8:51 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 7:13 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 6:09 am
How do the holdings compare to the Jouan ones?
How do you mean?
They’re from different plots, right?

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#18 Post by William Kelley » December 27th, 2019, 9:03 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 8:51 am
William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 7:13 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 6:09 am
How do the holdings compare to the Jouan ones?
How do you mean?
They’re from different plots, right?
No, one plot, owned by Jouan. Some of the wine is then sold to Drouhin.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#19 Post by Sh@n A » December 27th, 2019, 9:29 am

Is anyone able to/willing to take a crack at describing the different producer styles of CsD in a few sentences?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#20 Post by PCLIN » December 27th, 2019, 9:30 am

I love CSD from Lucien Le Moine.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#21 Post by Tom Blach » December 27th, 2019, 11:44 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 9:03 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 8:51 am
William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 7:13 am


How do you mean?
They’re from different plots, right?
No, one plot, owned by Jouan. Some of the wine is then sold to Drouhin.

I have only once compared the two bottlings, in the 1999 vintage, but at least in this case the wines have very little in common and the Drouhin is infinitely finer, for what reasons I do not know.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#22 Post by Howard Cooper » December 27th, 2019, 12:02 pm

Tom Blach wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 11:44 am
William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 9:03 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 8:51 am


They’re from different plots, right?
No, one plot, owned by Jouan. Some of the wine is then sold to Drouhin.

I have only once compared the two bottlings, in the 1999 vintage, but at least in this case the wines have very little in common and the Drouhin is infinitely finer, for what reasons I do not know.
Storage after bottling?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#23 Post by Tom Blach » December 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm

It's certainly not impossible but both bottles seemed to me to offer the characteristics one expects from the respective producers. The MSD Clos Sorbes that Jouan sells to Drouhin can differ very considerably too.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#24 Post by theocorrel » December 27th, 2019, 12:52 pm

Domaine des Forges also made a Clos St. Denis, at least in the 1990s. Is anyone familiar with this rendering?

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#25 Post by William Kelley » December 27th, 2019, 1:04 pm

Tom Blach wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 12:24 pm
It's certainly not impossible but both bottles seemed to me to offer the characteristics one expects from the respective producers. The MSD Clos Sorbes that Jouan sells to Drouhin can differ very considerably too.
If it's not storage it must simply be bottling practices. Jouan uses François Frères "Drouhin toast" barrels for his all his wines, and the vinification and élevage are identical up until the time when the barrels leave for Drouhin. Until not too long ago, Jouan used to bottle barrel-by-barrel with the "chèvre a deux becs", a device I guess best translated as two-headed spigot, but I'm not sure exactly when they switched to a bottling line.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#26 Post by YLee » December 27th, 2019, 2:02 pm

Can something simple as bottling make wines taste completely different?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#27 Post by M. Meer » December 27th, 2019, 2:37 pm

Barrel by barrel bottling can lead to increased variability as no two barrels are completely alike. Modern bottling lines also use inert gases to limit oxygen ingress, but I think I'm less concerned about that than having uncertainty about the wine in the bottle.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#28 Post by William Kelley » December 27th, 2019, 2:46 pm

YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:02 pm
Can something simple as bottling make wines taste completely different?
Potentially, yes. If one wine is fined and filtered, the other not; or if one wine stays in barrel a few months longer than the other; or a myriad of factors. I couldn't say as to Jouan vs Drouhin Clos Saint-Denis, but it's certainly possible. However, the raw materials in the two bottlings should be very much the same.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#29 Post by maureen nelson » December 27th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Stephen Williams wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 4:55 am
If aged sufficiently, Ponsot/ Dom Chezeaux TVV. The 1990 is just hitting its stride. The 99 needs another the decade. The 85 is extraordinary
And the 88 is one of the most delicious bottles of wine I’ve ever drunk.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#30 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » December 27th, 2019, 4:37 pm

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:46 pm
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:02 pm
Can something simple as bottling make wines taste completely different?
Potentially, yes. If one wine is fined and filtered, the other not; or if one wine stays in barrel a few months longer than the other; or a myriad of factors. I couldn't say as to Jouan vs Drouhin Clos Saint-Denis, but it's certainly possible. However, the raw materials in the two bottlings should be very much the same.
Why do people constantly put fining and filtering together as if they are always tied, and are similar in their effects?
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#31 Post by JT Ng » December 28th, 2019, 4:38 am

Always felt the Drouhin MSD 1er Sorbe and CSD to be below the level of their other cuvees, e.g. Griottes, Chambolle 1er Amoureuses, etc.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#32 Post by Charlie Carnes » December 28th, 2019, 5:25 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
December 26th, 2019, 7:44 pm
One of my favorites that has not been mentioned is Jouan.
Funny, I've never popped one, but did just receive some '16s just last week. Drank a MSD over Christmas and thought it was really lovely...
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#33 Post by TBurklow » December 28th, 2019, 8:09 am

The 85 and 88 CSD from Dujac are two of my all time favorite red burgs.

Dujac and Jouan are the only producers of CSD that I feel are "must haves" in the cellar.

Leroux is enjoyable as well.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#34 Post by Howard Cooper » January 10th, 2020, 5:13 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:46 pm
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:02 pm
Can something simple as bottling make wines taste completely different?
Potentially, yes. If one wine is fined and filtered, the other not; or if one wine stays in barrel a few months longer than the other; or a myriad of factors. I couldn't say as to Jouan vs Drouhin Clos Saint-Denis, but it's certainly possible. However, the raw materials in the two bottlings should be very much the same.
In the interests of research (and drinking excellent wine), my wine group tasted the 2005 Drouhin and Jouan Clos Saint-Denis side by side last night (and myriad other wines in our huge offline of the year). Both were excellent wines, but they were quite different. The Drouhin had a much more polished feel to it. My smooth and silky going down. A Bordeaux lover in our group really preferred this wine. The Jouan was probably a more natural, untouched character to it, not as smooth and silky but more flavorful and probably with a little more going on with regard to it. A friend who is a very much a Burgundy lover much preferred the Jouan, but then it is rare that he likes wines from the bigger houses in Burgundy. To me, the wines were more comparable but different. Overall, I thought the wines were drinking pretty well for 2005s (so many 2005s are still wound up in themselves) but the wines are still somewhat primary and need more time. We may redo this comparison in five years or so.

The third wine of the flight was a 2002 Dujac Clos Saint-Denis, which was outstanding. A bit more mature than the Jouan or the Drouhin.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#35 Post by YLee » January 10th, 2020, 5:34 am

Good data point at this current time. So both are good in their own ways and depending on your preference one can be better than other.
Maybe NYC offline should set something up for Drouhin and Jouan CSD.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » January 10th, 2020, 6:13 am

William Kelley wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:46 pm
YLee wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:02 pm
Can something simple as bottling make wines taste completely different?
Potentially, yes. If one wine is fined and filtered, the other not; or if one wine stays in barrel a few months longer than the other; or a myriad of factors. I couldn't say as to Jouan vs Drouhin Clos Saint-Denis, but it's certainly possible. However, the raw materials in the two bottlings should be very much the same.
William,

My sense was that the Drouhin was filtered but the Jouan was not. I have not knowledge if this was the case, but a light filtration on the Drouhin could explain some of the differences in character of the two wines.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#37 Post by William Kelley » January 10th, 2020, 8:07 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 5:13 am

In the interests of research (and drinking excellent wine), my wine group tasted the 2005 Drouhin and Jouan Clos Saint-Denis side by side last night (and myriad other wines in our huge offline of the year). Both were excellent wines, but they were quite different. The Drouhin had a much more polished feel to it. My smooth and silky going down. A Bordeaux lover in our group really preferred this wine. The Jouan was probably a more natural, untouched character to it, not as smooth and silky but more flavorful and probably with a little more going on with regard to it. A friend who is a very much a Burgundy lover much preferred the Jouan, but then it is rare that he likes wines from the bigger houses in Burgundy. To me, the wines were more comparable but different. Overall, I thought the wines were drinking pretty well for 2005s (so many 2005s are still wound up in themselves) but the wines are still somewhat primary and need more time. We may redo this comparison in five years or so.
Really interesting, thank you for reporting back!
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#38 Post by William Kelley » January 10th, 2020, 8:09 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 6:13 am
William,

My sense was that the Drouhin was filtered but the Jouan was not. I have not knowledge if this was the case, but a light filtration on the Drouhin could explain some of the differences in character of the two wines.
Seems very plausible, but of course purely speculation on our part. I will try to remember to ask next time I visit.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#39 Post by Howard Cooper » January 10th, 2020, 8:26 am

William Kelley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 8:09 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 6:13 am
William,

My sense was that the Drouhin was filtered but the Jouan was not. I have not knowledge if this was the case, but a light filtration on the Drouhin could explain some of the differences in character of the two wines.
Seems very plausible, but of course purely speculation on our part. I will try to remember to ask next time I visit.
Thanks. I agree that it is pure speculation and I have no idea how much I was influenced by what I tasted and how much by the power of suggestion having read this thread. But, a number of people at the dinner agreed with the differences in character of the two wines.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#40 Post by Robert Grenley » January 10th, 2020, 10:02 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 2:33 am
Ponsot (when it´s good, it not always is ...)
Dujac
Arlaud
Amiot (pre-2010) - Amiot-Servelle 2010+ not tasted
Heresztyn(-Mazzini)
(LeMoine - only tasted once, but outstanding)
Jadot
G.Lignier
Castagnier (older bottles from 80ies/90ies)
Charlopin
Coquard-Loison-Fleurot (good)
Slightly veering, but since it was listed here, what do people think of upper level Georges Lignier wines...Clos St. Denis, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes Mares, Charmes-Chambertin? I have never had any GL wines.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#41 Post by Joshua Kates » January 10th, 2020, 10:09 am

Well, I believe that's of whom Gerhard is speaking. I've liked his '90 CSD especially, but also his '98; both of which I've had on more than one occasion. The '90, more recent, was somewhat bright fruited with some real complexity and a pretty decent finish.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#42 Post by William Kelley » January 10th, 2020, 10:26 am

Robert Grenley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 10:02 am

Slightly veering, but since it was listed here, what do people think of upper level Georges Lignier wines...Clos St. Denis, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes Mares, Charmes-Chambertin? I have never had any GL wines.
The 1985s were very good and well worth buying if you see them...
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#43 Post by A. So » January 10th, 2020, 2:50 pm

William Kelley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 10:26 am
Robert Grenley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 10:02 am

Slightly veering, but since it was listed here, what do people think of upper level Georges Lignier wines...Clos St. Denis, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes Mares, Charmes-Chambertin? I have never had any GL wines.
The 1985s were very good and well worth buying if you see them...
I had the 85 CdlR recently and did not find it convincing. Ashy, a bit oaky still, and thin.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#44 Post by William Kelley » January 10th, 2020, 6:48 pm

A. So wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 2:50 pm

I had the 85 CdlR recently and did not find it convincing. Ashy, a bit oaky still, and thin.
Ah, too bad, I have had very good experiences with 1985 and considered them something of a one-hit wonder!
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#45 Post by A. So » January 10th, 2020, 8:13 pm

William Kelley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 6:48 pm
A. So wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 2:50 pm

I had the 85 CdlR recently and did not find it convincing. Ashy, a bit oaky still, and thin.
Ah, too bad, I have had very good experiences with 1985 and considered them something of a one-hit wonder!
Very interesting, I'll keep an eye out for more. More than possible ours was not a pitch perfect bottle.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#46 Post by Sanjay Nandurkar » January 10th, 2020, 9:22 pm

We are planning a CSD offline later this year. Lets see which producer shows the best.

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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#47 Post by Sanjay Nandurkar » January 10th, 2020, 9:22 pm

We are planning a CSD offline later this year. Lets see which producer shows the best.

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Robert Grenley
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#48 Post by Robert Grenley » January 10th, 2020, 11:24 pm

William Kelley wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 6:48 pm
A. So wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 2:50 pm

I had the 85 CdlR recently and did not find it convincing. Ashy, a bit oaky still, and thin.
Ah, too bad, I have had very good experiences with 1985 and considered them something of a one-hit wonder!
So, this would indicate that, considering their vineyards, they underperform, correct?
(The chance of me finding 85’s and springing for them without worrying about provenance are slim.)
I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#49 Post by A Songeur » January 11th, 2020, 3:08 am

Nobody mentions Bertagna although in his Burgundy book Bill Nanson praises this wine. Any good?

I have purchased Ponsot, Jouan, Bertagna and Castagnier but have only opened the Ponsot 98 (excellent) and the Bertagna 2009 (a bit young but commendable).
Last edited by A Songeur on January 11th, 2020, 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whats your top 5 Clos saint denis?

#50 Post by Jay Opperman » January 11th, 2020, 4:31 am

To me Dujac is in a class by itself when compared to the others especially when it’s aged.The 85,91 and 93 are exceptional.

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