Louis Jadot Clos St. Denis - Domaine Gagey versus Negociant bottlings

Has anyone done a side-by-side tasting of the Domaine Gagey and the negociant bottling of this wine? I ask because I purchased an auction lot a few years ago that appears to contain one bottle of each.


I’m not planning to open these anytime soon, but thought that impressions from a side-by-side tasting might inform which bottle I opened first.

There was some good information on the two bottlings in this thread:Jadot Clos Saint Denis 1996 - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

But I’d be interested in any more specific information about where the negociant bottling comes from.

Also, in the reviews of I’ve seen on this wine, I’ve never noted any clear distinction as to which of the two bottlings was being reviewed. Although Allen Meadows’ reviews (I checked 2005-08 and 2010-12) indicate “(from 90+ year old vines that are worked by horse)” - which I assume refers to the Domaine Gagey bottling.

FWIW, when tasting chez Jadot, if they have both a domaine and Maison bottling of the same AOC, they will almost invariably present the domaine version. So the chances are that any critical reviews refer to the Domaine version—though unless that’s specified, you can never be 100% sure. When I came on board at TWA, our database was rife with confusion about what was Maison and what was négoce, and it took me about two days to correct all the mistakes and add the source to the wine names for Jadot alone.

Thanks William. My operating assumption was that the Domaine Gagey version was more likely to be reviewed, but it is good to have that confirmed. Any information about the relative quantities of the two bottlings or where the négoce wine is sourced?

I’m afraid I never tasted it and couldn’t more than speculate about the source! I don’t think they make a négoce bottling of that AOC these days but I could be wrong.

I was on that original referenced thread and did some further research when I found out that the Jadot negoce version of Clos St. Denis is in fact made pretty much every year and exists side-by-side with the Gagey bottling.

At that point I did a detailed audit of my cellar and discovered that the majority of my Jadot Clos St. Denis bottlings- including 14 of the 18 bottles I had of the magical 2012- were in fact negoce and NOT Gagey.

And so I opened a bottle of the negoce 2012 with friends, and while it was very nice- it was a far cry from the Gagey bottling I had tried a couple of years prior. And it was not just about the fact the wine may have shut down in that two year interim- the fruit spectrum was completely different.

At this point I got really ticked off and did some more research- specifically looking up winesearcher offerings to see photos where available from merchants in the US vs Europe, and making phone calls to get info on the specific labels of wines in stock for merchants who had lots of product but no current photos.

I included in my research Joseph Drouhin Corton-Charlemagne which I had also recently discovered came in both Domaine and negociant bottlings.

Following are my findings- not conclusive- but solid enough for me,

  1. Based on detailed comments alone it is pretty clear as someone noted above that the Domaine versions of both wines are what the critics taste. Two of the critics I follow do make note in most TNs that they are tasting a Domaine version.

  2. NONE of the US retailers I spoke with who sourced their wines via US channels had the Domaine versions for all. All had negoce. The few Gagey bottles I had in hand (I had zero Drouhin CC Domaine in hand- all was negociant) all came from retailers on the West and East coasts who sourced wines in Europe, or from auction lots that came from European collectors.

  3. I emailed Drouhin to ask about the difference between the bottles and how to tell (I already knew- but wanted to see what they had to say.) I never got a response.

In conclusion, a significant portion of both of these expensive wines are sold without clarity as to their origins and based on critical TNs for very different bottlings. Further, it appears that at least in the case of Jadot Clos St. Denis, the US is not a usual recipient of the Gagey version via normal distribution- if ever. I have no hard proof the wine is deliberately not distributed here, but enough circumstantial evidence to not want to buy the wines ever again.

In response I sold off all of my Drouhin and Jadot holdings and will never buy again. That may seem extreme, but I am at a time in my life where I have cut my cellar in half so my quantities are more aligned with consumption rates- and to allow room for more backfilling of older vintages of wines I really like.

So to stop doing business with two companies that seem to think we are a bunch of dumb Americans was an easy call.

Joel,

Perhaps you can taste your two bottles side by side in about 15 years and report back.

Or whenever.

Tom, I remember we had discussed the two different bottlings in the past. What you’re saying is quite troubling, and I will have to make a point to check the bottles in my own cellar soon. Thank you for raising the point with such clarity.

I can’t personally think of any other red Jadot vineyard that has a Maison and Domaine bottling. Are there any others where that may be the case?

I have seen over the last few years an increase in negoce wines from reputable estates, where the bottle doesn’t say that they are negoce wines, as far as I can tell. A worrying evolution.

When I pay this much for wine, I want the whole process, from vineyard management to winemaking, to be under the control of the estate, unless the bottle specifically tells me what to expect.

As I remembered Jadot did produce both Domaine and negociant bottles of Chambertin Clos de Beze at the same vintage as well.

Tom, that seems pretty extreme to blame Jadot for the ambiguity generated by retailers’ e-commerce sites - Jadot, for its part, could not possibly be clearer about what’s in the bottle. All the Domaine wines say so right on the label and carry the “recolte, elevage, et mis en bouteille” legend to distinguish from purchased fruit.

My CSDs are all Dom. Gagey, from a variety of different shops so I can’t speak to who gets what. I did get surprised a couple times on Chambolle Baudes which is another bottling for which there is both domaine and negoce.

+1 Jadot couldn’t really be more transparent about it, as it is printed clearly on the label, and I know they never give both négoce & domaine bottlings of the same appellation to the same distributor. Importers / distributors know very well which bottling they are getting an the onus is on them to make that clear.

Also, FWIW, looking at total production vs. what Kobrand bring in from Jadot from the 2016 vintage, for the top domaine bottlings such as Clos de Bèze, Chapelle-Chambertin, Clos Saint-Jacques and Corton-Pougets, the US market is getting between 12 to around 25 per cent of the total production. So the idea that the American market is somehow being given second-best is misplaced I would say.

Benchmark offer today lists several vintages of Clos St. Denis and in parentheses notes Domaine Gagey.

I do not know if Jadot produced both versions ( Domaine and Negoc ) of CdBese and/or Chambertin. But in QC Canada I am sure SAQ releases only the Domaine version of his CdBeze and also only the Negoc version of his Chambertin. The CdBeze is always at approximately 5% more higher.

I have never seen a Domaine Jadot Chambertin

Then why not present both bottlings to the critics for their reviews? Why ignore simple email requests from consumers? Why does their website only list and photograph the Gagey bottling and not specify that there is also a negociant bottling?

I am not blaming them for the retailer situation- I am just saying that in my research of such sites there was a clear pattern of the Gagey wine not coming here in traditional distribution.

I will readily concede the labelling is different and recognizable to those who are fully educated- you have a fair point there, but in the grand scheme of things I feel many facts are omitted from places where such information should be clear- especially at a $400 price point for a prized grand cru with precious little supply.

That is what bothers me. If the critics were presented with both examples and if the website presented both wines- then I would have no complaints. As for distribution, I have no proof but I had a LOT of cases of that wine sourced from around the world- and the pattern was very strongly that US-sourced bottles were negoce and Europe-sourced bottles were Gagey. And yes I will also concede that I have no idea who decides what gets sent to where, but that is quite a pattern, no?

I honestly do not know. The only 3 Jadot wines I had in any quantity were Clos St. Denis, Amoureuses and Beaune Ursules. The latter two are both one bottling, so I only ever went digging into the issue over Clos St. Denis.

Well, that’s a pretty easy one to answer - the critics, myself included, don’t ask! Many of Jadot’s wines have négoce alternatives, you can see some like Beaune Grèves and even Corton Pougets in their shop at the cuverie in Beaune. Even a shortened tasting at Jadot is going to leave you with 50 wines to taste. If you did all their individual climats - but not the négoce duplicates - you will already have over 100 wines - I think Neal Martin may have done this a few times. I’ve always been happy with 50 notes to cover their major wines and get a feeling for their consistency in a particular vintage. If ahead of time you ask for a particular focus, they are always happy to accommodate - and with multiple vintages - otherwise they will show their major wines in terms of volume plus a few specialties, like Musigny, for instance.

I agree with William, it’s plain on the labels what the wines are - despite the labels being generic - the problem is the quality of description by sellers down the line.

As Bill says, it’s already a marathon tasting. This year and last, I did around 110 wines over two days, and I think Neal and Allen Meadows taste a similarly extensive range.

Where does Domaine Louis Jadot fit in with the Domaine Gagey Vs Negociant debate?