Floral barolo recs

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NoriY
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Floral barolo recs

#1 Post by NoriY » December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm

First, thank you... The recent posts on intro to barolo and traditional vs modern producers have been really helpful. Piggybacking on those posts...

Beyond the ripe/ new oak/modern vs traditional, I've found that the flavors can also be very floral to funky. I've also noticed the wines from the same producer can change over the vintages, possibly due to changes in styles or winemaking over time.

I'm looking for recommendations on barolo producers (and specific vineyard designations, if any) that reliably produce very floral wines with maybe secondary leather/tobacco flavors year after year. I'm not a huge fan of the funky mushroom, truffle, iron and balsamic notes that they can produce. I'm probably an outlier, but I've appreciate wines from both traditional (e.g. Lorenzo accomasso) and modern producers (e.g. manzoni or parusso) as long as it's balanced and has the bright floral/roses flavors with maybe tar and leather aspects I enjoy. While I would love to try Bartolo Mascarello and Conterno one day, ideally I'd like to keep it under $100 a bottle if possible.

My cellar and I thank you bersekers as always for your help and wisdom.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#2 Post by joz€f p1nxten » December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 am

NoriY wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm
First, thank you... The recent posts on intro to barolo and traditional vs modern producers have been really helpful. Piggybacking on those posts...

Beyond the ripe/ new oak/modern vs traditional, I've found that the flavors can also be very floral to funky. I've also noticed the wines from the same producer can change over the vintages, possibly due to changes in styles or winemaking over time.

I'm looking for recommendations on barolo producers (and specific vineyard designations, if any) that reliably produce very floral wines with maybe secondary leather/tobacco flavors year after year. I'm not a huge fan of the funky mushroom, truffle, iron and balsamic notes that they can produce. I'm probably an outlier, but I've appreciate wines from both traditional (e.g. Lorenzo accomasso) and modern producers (e.g. manzoni or parusso) as long as it's balanced and has the bright floral/roses flavors with maybe tar and leather aspects I enjoy. While I would love to try Bartolo Mascarello and Conterno one day, ideally I'd like to keep it under $100 a bottle if possible.

My cellar and I thank you bersekers as always for your help and wisdom.
Some thoughts from someone who more or less the same experience as you (ie I don't drink it as often as other types of wine, but only occasionally):

- luckily the wines change from year to year: a lot has to do with the vintage;
- what is "floral" for one person, isn't necessarily "floral" for another person;
- to me, the really typical "floral" barolo is monvigliero from Burlotto - if you put it in a flight of burgundy blind, you do sense that it is different, but floral character (to me = red fruit) stands out - but again, that's for my palate;
- with a bit of age, I do feel floral character comes forward - eg this weekend, I tried a Brovia Barolo 2012. Definitely going in "floral" direction.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#3 Post by mike pobega » December 2nd, 2019, 4:41 am

It's a good question. I myself in my limited experience usually turn to Barbaresco when I seek those qualities in Nebbiolo.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#4 Post by Ian Sutton » December 2nd, 2019, 5:36 am

There is a specific nebbiolo grape (sub-variety?) which is meant to give more floral wines.

I can't remember the exact grape name but recall Ian d'Agata talking about it being mostly removed from the vineyards, but historically being more prevalent - IIRC the grape was Nebbiolo Rosé and some producers still had vineyards with a high percentage of it, plus one wine where it was the lead grape (vigna Elena?). Hopefully someone can fil, in the blanks!
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#5 Post by John Kight » December 2nd, 2019, 6:25 am

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 am
...but floral character (to me = red fruit) stands out.
This is my own experience too. By "floral" I usually think of bright red, juicy/tart, fruit, which often comes with a rose petal aspect (along with a cherry, cranberry and/or pomegranate fruits). Without needing to age the wine, I typically find this in the better "basic" Barolos of good producers that aren't aiming for a huge, age-worthy wine. For example, for a very reasonable price, I often get this from Fontanafredda's base level Barolo (Serralunga), on the lower end, and even from Aldo Conterno's base-level Barolo (Bussia), on the higher end (despite the latter's reputation for modern-style wine, I find that the oak in this one adds spice without detracting from the red fruit).

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#6 Post by Joe W i n o g r a d » December 2nd, 2019, 7:07 am

There is a school of thought that the two major soil types of Barolo lead to a general split along the lines of “lighter floral” (tortonian soil, northwest side of Barolo region) and “denser powerful” (serravalian soil, southeast side of Barolo region).

I don’t know if there is widespread agreement on this, but I have found it to be useful. Vajra is my go-to on the floral side. The 2012 Bricco de Viole is available at retail and drinking nicely now.

As I recall, Ian d’Agata discusses this at length in his ridiculously detailed interview with Levi Dalton on the Ill Drink to That podcast.
Last edited by Joe W i n o g r a d on December 2nd, 2019, 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#7 Post by John Morris » December 2nd, 2019, 7:08 am

joz€f p1nxten wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 am
Some thoughts from someone who more or less the same experience as you (ie I don't drink it as often as other types of wine, but only occasionally):

....
- what is "floral" for one person, isn't necessarily "floral" for another person;
- to me, the really typical "floral" barolo is monvigliero from Burlotto - if you put it in a flight of burgundy blind, you do sense that it is different, but floral character (to me = red fruit) stands out - but again, that's for my palate;
...
The Monvigliero vineyard was the first thing that came to mind. Burlotto's version reminds me of a Chambolle-Musigny, with strawberry scents and something floral. It's become very expensive, though. Fratelli Alessandria's Monvigliero has many of those same qualities at a more reasonable price. The Monvigliero vineyard lies in Verduno, at the far northwest corner of the appellation, very near the Tanaro River, which cools it at night, so it is unique. Burlotto's is sui generis, since they press the grapes by foot and leave the juice on the skins for 60 days. Counterintuitively, that produces a very feminine wine.

Nori -- In general, I'd suggest looking at the wines from La Morra and Verduno, which tend to be more feminine/elegant. I think you might find what you're after in (Poderi e Cantine) Oddero's base bottling, which is a blend, mostly from La Morra vineyards. Marcarini's Brunate and La Serra also tend toward the feminine, though I don't think of them as being so floral.

I think it's pretty hard to discern anything floral in wines made with barriques. Even when oak is used in moderation, it tends to mask the more subtle scents from the grapes.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#8 Post by John Morris » December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am

Ian Sutton wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 5:36 am
There is a specific nebbiolo grape (sub-variety?) which is meant to give more floral wines.

I can't remember the exact grape name but recall Ian d'Agata talking about it being mostly removed from the vineyards, but historically being more prevalent - IIRC the grape was Nebbiolo Rosé and some producers still had vineyards with a high percentage of it, plus one wine where it was the lead grape (vigna Elena?). Hopefully someone can fil, in the blanks!
Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#9 Post by John Morris » December 2nd, 2019, 7:19 am

John Kight wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 6:25 am
This is my own experience too. By "floral" I usually think of bright red, juicy/tart, fruit, which often comes with a rose petal aspect (along with a cherry, cranberry and/or pomegranate fruits). Without needing to age the wine, I typically find this in the better "basic" Barolos of good producers that aren't aiming for a huge, age-worthy wine. For example, for a very reasonable price, I often get this from Fontanafredda's base level Barolo (Serralunga), on the lower end, and even from Aldo Conterno's base-level Barolo (Bussia), on the higher end (despite the latter's reputation for modern-style wine, I find that the oak in this one adds spice without detracting from the red fruit).
It's interesting that you find rose petals. To me, rose hips are very characteristic of nebbiolo. The scents may be related, as often happens with different parts of the same plant.

We've discussed the Fontanafredda normale before. I find it conspicuously oaky (it spends a year in barriques of unspecified age), so I wouldn't put that on my list for floral Barolos.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#10 Post by John Morris » December 2nd, 2019, 7:29 am

Joe W i n o g r a d wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:07 am
There is a school of thought that the two major soil types of Barolo lead to a general split along the lines of “lighter floral” (tortonian soil, northwest side of Barolo region) and “denser powerful” (serravalian soil, southeast side of Barolo region).

I don’t know if there is widespread agreement on this, but I have found it to be useful. Vajra is my go-to on the floral side. The 2012 Bricco de Viole is available at retail and drinking nicely now.

As I recall, Ian d’Agata discusses this at length in his ridiculously detailed interview with Levi Dalton on the Ill Drink to That podcast.
This is borne out when you taste the wines of the different communes from the same producer side by side. Most of Monforte's vineyards and those in Serralunga yield denser, more tannic, masculine wines than you get in La Morra and Verduno. Barolo and Castiglione lie somewhere in the middle, stylewise.

I first experienced the difference firsthand tasting through the full line-up at Vietti in 2002. Their vineyards are spread across the DOCG zone, from Novello in the southwest (Ravera), to their home commune of Castiglione in the center (Rocche, Villero) and to Serralunga at the southwest edge (Lazzarito). You can also see it in Brovia, which has vineyards in Castiglione (Garblet Sue/Fiasco) and Serralunga (Ca Mia/Brea). The difference is quite dramatic at Frat. Alessandria, comparing its Monvigliero (Verduno) and Gramalore (Serralunga).

I, too, love the Vajra Bricco de Viole. It's within the Barolo commune, but it's at quite a high elevation at the western fringe of the commune, some distance from (and many meters above) the prime Barolo plots like Cannubi and Brunate, so it's character is rather unique.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#11 Post by NoriY » December 2nd, 2019, 7:52 am

Thank you for the responses so far. I agree that the tannins and structure can often bury the fruit when young, and the underlying fruit comes out with age. Unfortunately, my local vendors don't have a huge selection of nebbiolo for tastings. Given the vintage variability from the same producer, I find it's really hit or miss to cellar these wines in hopes the wines turn towards to red fruit and floral spectrum over time.

Maybe my limited sampling, but I've found many of the barbarescos to be fairly dark, ripe, and modern in style. They're often really dark in color (as opposed to the translucent red or light brown of barolo) and, even after some age, almost a plummy degree of ripeness. I'm sure they're are barbarescos that are lighter and more elegant style. The board is smarter than my ability to throw money at random bottles of wine, so help is greatly appreciated [thankyou.gif]
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#12 Post by Max K » December 2nd, 2019, 7:52 am

John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:08 am
joz€f p1nxten wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 2:29 am
Some thoughts from someone who more or less the same experience as you (ie I don't drink it as often as other types of wine, but only occasionally):

....
- what is "floral" for one person, isn't necessarily "floral" for another person;
- to me, the really typical "floral" barolo is monvigliero from Burlotto - if you put it in a flight of burgundy blind, you do sense that it is different, but floral character (to me = red fruit) stands out - but again, that's for my palate;
...
The Monvigliero vineyard was the first thing that came to mind. Burlotto's version reminds me of a Chambolle-Musigny, with strawberry scents and something floral. It's become very expensive, though. Fratelli Alessandria's Monvigliero has many of those same qualities at a more reasonable price. The Monvigliero vineyard lies in Verduno, at the far northwest corner of the appellation, very near the Tanaro River, which cools it at night, so it is unique. Burlotto's is sui generis, since they press the grapes by foot and leave the juice on the skins for 60 days. Counterintuitively, that produces a very feminine wine.

Nori -- In general, I'd suggest looking at the wines from La Morra and Verduno, which tend to be more feminine/elegant. I think you might find what you're after in (Poderi e Cantine) Oddero's base bottling, which is a blend, mostly from La Morra vineyards. Marcarini's Brunate and La Serra also tend toward the feminine, though I don't think of them as being so floral.

I think it's pretty hard to discern anything floral in wines made with barriques. Even when oak is used in moderation, it tends to mask the more subtle scents from the grapes.
Alessandria's Gramolere also shows the high-toned floral character (despite being from Monforte), and some of Burlotto's Monvigliero goes into his Acclivi which, while not cheap, isn't as hyped as the former. Castello di Verduno's wines show it in better years too.

I find some Castiglione wines show a strong floral signature as well - Vietti's Rocche, Cavallotto's Bricco Boschis (whereas the Vignolo has a much darker fruit character), and Roagna's Pira. Ettore Germano's 2015 Prapo has a gorgeous floral note and remarkably fine-boned structure for a Serralunga from a hot vintage. Two other floral red-fruited Serralunga wines are Cappellano's Gabutti and Conterno's Arione (although both are well north of $100).

On the subject of geology - Alessandro Masnaghetti will be releasing a "Geo-Viticultural Map of the Crus" sometime soon. I got a pre-release copy and it shows the distribution of soils is somewhat more varied than the Tortonian/Serravalian split. This gives some sense of it without the granular detail of Masnaghetti's work: http://mowse.blogspot.com/2017/09/soils ... -zone.html
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#13 Post by Robert Pavlovich » December 2nd, 2019, 6:05 pm

I’d second La Morra, and Verdugo in general, though Verduno pretty much equates to Burlotto.

Individual Cru’s to consider
Monvigliero, Rocche di Castiglione,

Wines: 14’ Giuseppe Rinaldi Brunate

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#14 Post by John Morris » December 2nd, 2019, 9:10 pm

Robert Pavlovich wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 6:05 pm
I’d second La Morra, and Verdugo in general, though Verduno pretty much equates to Burlotto.
I think that's limiting. Frat. Alessandria is making excellent wines in Verduno, including from Monvigliero. I have less experience with Castello di Verduno, but I gather the quality there is also high.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#15 Post by Pat Burton » December 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am

John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am
Ian Sutton wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 5:36 am
There is a specific nebbiolo grape (sub-variety?) which is meant to give more floral wines.

I can't remember the exact grape name but recall Ian d'Agata talking about it being mostly removed from the vineyards, but historically being more prevalent - IIRC the grape was Nebbiolo Rosé and some producers still had vineyards with a high percentage of it, plus one wine where it was the lead grape (vigna Elena?). Hopefully someone can fil, in the blanks!
Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
I believe Cappellano's Pie Franco is also the Rose clone.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#16 Post by Cristian Dezso » December 3rd, 2019, 12:02 pm

Pat Burton wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am
John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am
Ian Sutton wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 5:36 am
There is a specific nebbiolo grape (sub-variety?) which is meant to give more floral wines.

I can't remember the exact grape name but recall Ian d'Agata talking about it being mostly removed from the vineyards, but historically being more prevalent - IIRC the grape was Nebbiolo Rosé and some producers still had vineyards with a high percentage of it, plus one wine where it was the lead grape (vigna Elena?). Hopefully someone can fil, in the blanks!
Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
I believe Cappellano's Pie Franco is also the Rose clone.
It is Michet!

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#17 Post by AAgrawal » December 3rd, 2019, 12:16 pm

Cristian Dezso wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:02 pm
Pat Burton wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am
John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am


Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
I believe Cappellano's Pie Franco is also the Rose clone.
It is Michet!
If I remember correctly, I think Ian D'agata's Native Wine grapes of Italy says the Vigna Elena is the only 100% Nebbiolo Rose clone still made. Honestly I've tried a bottle, and I didn't notice a substantial difference in style compared to the standard Nebbiolo clones on the market.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#18 Post by John Morris » December 3rd, 2019, 12:18 pm

I think D'Agata said that one of Giacosa's vineyard may have had a lot of rose, but that wasn't certain.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#19 Post by J a y H a c k » December 3rd, 2019, 12:29 pm

Paolo Scavino Bricco Ambroggio. I had the 2004 at the winery in 2017 and it was shockingly floral. Perhaps the most floral barolo I have ever had. I came home and bought a case of the 2010. A bit less floral but still delicious. It is apparently a very small cold microclimate that brings out the flowers.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#20 Post by Pat Burton » December 3rd, 2019, 12:30 pm

Cristian Dezso wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:02 pm
Pat Burton wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am
John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am


Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
I believe Cappellano's Pie Franco is also the Rose clone.
It is Michet!
Ah yes, my mistake.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#21 Post by Greg K » December 3rd, 2019, 1:36 pm

At the price point, I’d say Burlotto’s Acclivi or Brovia’s Rocche. Both have been mentioned, so I’m not covering new ground, but I think they’re both good examples. I think Vajra’s Bricco del Viole is another good one, though I’m personally not a huge fan of that bottling.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#22 Post by John Morris » December 3rd, 2019, 2:47 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:29 pm
Paolo Scavino Bricco Ambroggio. I had the 2004 at the winery in 2017 and it was shockingly floral. Perhaps the most floral barolo I have ever had. I came home and bought a case of the 2010. A bit less floral but still delicious. It is apparently a very small cold microclimate that brings out the flowers.
Ambrogio is in the commune of Roddi, a tiny hill near Verduno, not far from the Tanaro River, so it might resemble Monvigliero. But Scavino's wines often have a marked new oak overlay.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#23 Post by Tom Taylor » December 3rd, 2019, 4:47 pm

AAgrawal wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:16 pm
Cristian Dezso wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:02 pm
Pat Burton wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am


I believe Cappellano's Pie Franco is also the Rose clone.
It is Michet!
If I remember correctly, I think Ian D'agata's Native Wine grapes of Italy says the Vigna Elena is the only 100% Nebbiolo Rose clone still made. Honestly I've tried a bottle, and I didn't notice a substantial difference in style compared to the standard Nebbiolo clones on the market.

The Martinenga Barbaresco from Marchesi Di Gresy contains about 20% Nebbiolo Rose. I also believe the Pajore Cru in Barbaresco has some Rose planted in it. How much it contains varies depends on who you ask
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#24 Post by Cristian Dezso » December 3rd, 2019, 5:30 pm

Tom Taylor wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 4:47 pm
AAgrawal wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:16 pm
Cristian Dezso wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:02 pm


It is Michet!
If I remember correctly, I think Ian D'agata's Native Wine grapes of Italy says the Vigna Elena is the only 100% Nebbiolo Rose clone still made. Honestly I've tried a bottle, and I didn't notice a substantial difference in style compared to the standard Nebbiolo clones on the market.

The Martinenga Barbaresco from Marchesi Di Gresy contains about 20% Nebbiolo Rose. I also believe the Pajore Cru in Barbaresco has some Rose planted in it. How much it contains varies depends on who you ask
I think that Levi highlighted Cascina Baricchi Rose delle Casasse as the only other wine made with 100% Nebbiolo Rose clone.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#25 Post by Lee Short » December 3rd, 2019, 6:32 pm

It's not Barolo, but the Columbera & Garella 2016 Costa Della Sesia fits this profile nicely, and is a great wine for the price. 70% Nebbiolo but rather less rustic than many nebbish blends. Fantastic match with my hot turkey sandwich.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#26 Post by Robert Pavlovich » December 3rd, 2019, 10:34 pm

John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 9:10 pm
Robert Pavlovich wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 6:05 pm
I’d second La Morra, and Verdugo in general, though Verduno pretty much equates to Burlotto.
I think that's limiting. Frat. Alessandria is making excellent wines in Verduno, including from Monvigliero. I have less experience with Castello di Verduno, but I gather the quality there is also high.
I might even narrow down Verduno further, to Burlotto’s Acclivi and Monvigliero. Alessandria’s on the radar there too, though not quite in the same class quite yet.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#27 Post by Kelly Walker » December 4th, 2019, 6:02 am

B. Giacosa. Always a floral top note (rose & violet), more so in their Barbaresco but also the Baroli. Price may be an issue.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#28 Post by Max K » December 4th, 2019, 6:16 am

Kelly Walker wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 6:02 am
Price may be an issue.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#29 Post by Tim Heaton » December 4th, 2019, 6:23 am

As some have already mentioned, my first answer was Barbaresco. As I considered the question in the conrext of Barolo, examples that came to mind included Podere e Cantina's Classico, E. Grasso Chiniera, and B. Giacosa.

But, it can depend on a number of factors, which means it's less consistent, for me, in Barolo, than the Barbaresco wines which I find are more often tending toward floral.

I've just finished a tasting of all the 2016 Sottimano wines here at the farm (new F. Freres barrique is 15% these days), including an en primeuer tasting of the Basarin (a new Cru for them), and I have to say these are the wines I'd always knew were possible - utterly stunning. And, all have floral to spare, with Cotta being a minor exception - these are the finest wines I've ever tasted here. They are already sold out (i. e. importer reservations) for all of their 2016s - buy without hesitation.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#30 Post by Kelly Walker » December 4th, 2019, 6:41 am

Tim Heaton wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 6:23 am
As some have already mentioned, my first answer was Barbaresco. As I considered the question in the conrext of Barolo, examples that came to mind included Podere e Cantina's Classico, E. Grasso Chiniera, and B. Giacosa.

But, it can depend on a number of factors, which means it's less consistent, for me, in Barolo, than the Barbaresco wines which I find are more often tending toward floral.

I've just finished a tasting of all the 2016 Sottimano wines here at the farm (new F. Freres barrique is 15% these days), including an en primeuer tasting of the Basarin (a new Cru for them), and I have to say these are the wines I'd always knew were possible - utterly stunning. And, all have floral to spare, with Cotta being a minor exception - these are the finest wines I've ever tasted here. They are already sold out (i. e. importer reservations) for all of their 2016s - buy without hesitation.
+1 on Sottimano. Had a great visit with Andrea last year. The 2016s are indeed stunning. Super family.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#31 Post by Markus S » December 4th, 2019, 6:51 am

NoriY wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm


...with maybe secondary leather/tobacco flavors year after year. I'm not a huge fan of the funky mushroom, truffle, iron and balsamic notes that they can produce.
I don't usually associate leather or tobacco with nebbiolo, not do I find many "funky", but see that you don't care for "truffle, iron and balsamic" which is clearly in many of them. Not sure I can help you.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#32 Post by Nathan Smyth » December 4th, 2019, 3:45 pm

NoriY wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm
I'm not a huge fan of the funky
How quickly are you emptying your bottles?

Every bottle of Nebbiolo deserves to be followed for at least seven days, and I would strongly urge you to follow your Barolo & Barbaresco bottles for a minimum of fourteen days.

If you're practicing Pop-N-Pour Infanticide on these wines, then you'll never learn whether the funk might have blown off by Day 6 or Day 8, and you'll never get a chance to experience any magic which might have lain in wait just beneath the funk.

PS: The corks won't last that long [they'll tend to shatter after three or four days], so you'll need to invest in some rubber stoppers:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=15 ... le+-vacuum

Immediately after pouring, I just shove a rubber stopper in the bottle, put the stoppered-bottle back in the bottom of the refrigerator, and let it sit there until I need to make a cold pour the next day.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#33 Post by Greg K » December 4th, 2019, 4:49 pm

John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 9:10 pm
Robert Pavlovich wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 6:05 pm
I’d second La Morra, and Verdugo in general, though Verduno pretty much equates to Burlotto.
I think that's limiting. Frat. Alessandria is making excellent wines in Verduno, including from Monvigliero. I have less experience with Castello di Verduno, but I gather the quality there is also high.
I think Alessandria's Monvigliero is very good (and I own a bunch), but it's a far cry from Burlotto's. I'm curious what Vietti's Monvigliero will be like. They're also doing whole cluster, and I only had it out of the botti, so while it was good I'm not quite sure it'll have the same lift. But Vietti certainly know what they're doing.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#34 Post by AAgrawal » December 4th, 2019, 6:19 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 3:45 pm
NoriY wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm
I'm not a huge fan of the funky
How quickly are you emptying your bottles?

Every bottle of Nebbiolo deserves to be followed for at least seven days, and I would strongly urge you to follow your Barolo & Barbaresco bottles for a minimum of fourteen days.

If you're practicing Pop-N-Pour Infanticide on these wines, then you'll never learn whether the funk might have blown off by Day 6 or Day 8, and you'll never get a chance to experience any magic which might have lain in wait just beneath the funk.

PS: The corks won't last that long [they'll tend to shatter after three or four days], so you'll need to invest in some rubber stoppers:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=15 ... le+-vacuum

Immediately after pouring, I just shove a rubber stopper in the bottle, put the stoppered-bottle back in the bottom of the refrigerator, and let it sit there until I need to make a cold pour the next day.
No one routinely drinks wine this way. If you want to spend 2 weeks drinking every bottle of Nebbiolo, that's up to you, but that's not a reasonable recommendation to make for the average drinker, even the average Nebbiolo fan. Plus, sometimes we open wine for others. Try telling a group that they can only have a thimble of wine because you have to drink it for the next few weeks.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#35 Post by John Morris » December 4th, 2019, 6:37 pm

John Morris wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 7:10 am
Ian Sutton wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 5:36 am
There is a specific nebbiolo grape (sub-variety?) which is meant to give more floral wines.

I can't remember the exact grape name but recall Ian d'Agata talking about it being mostly removed from the vineyards, but historically being more prevalent - IIRC the grape was Nebbiolo Rosé and some producers still had vineyards with a high percentage of it, plus one wine where it was the lead grape (vigna Elena?). Hopefully someone can fil, in the blanks!
Yes, that's the rosé clone. It's rare, but Cogno's Vigna Elena is 100% nebbiolo rosé.
Oliver McCrum has reminded me that nebbiolo rosé is not a clone/variant of nebbiolo. It is genetically distinct, though closely related. (Ian D'Amato discusses it in his Grapes book at pp. 361-363.)
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#36 Post by NoriY » December 4th, 2019, 9:06 pm

AAgrawal wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 6:19 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 3:45 pm
NoriY wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 10:58 pm
I'm not a huge fan of the funky
How quickly are you emptying your bottles?

Every bottle of Nebbiolo deserves to be followed for at least seven days, and I would strongly urge you to follow your Barolo & Barbaresco bottles for a minimum of fourteen days.

If you're practicing Pop-N-Pour Infanticide on these wines, then you'll never learn whether the funk might have blown off by Day 6 or Day 8, and you'll never get a chance to experience any magic which might have lain in wait just beneath the funk.

PS: The corks won't last that long [they'll tend to shatter after three or four days], so you'll need to invest in some rubber stoppers:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=15 ... le+-vacuum

Immediately after pouring, I just shove a rubber stopper in the bottle, put the stoppered-bottle back in the bottom of the refrigerator, and let it sit there until I need to make a cold pour the next day.
No one routinely drinks wine this way. If you want to spend 2 weeks drinking every bottle of Nebbiolo, that's up to you, but that's not a reasonable recommendation to make for the average drinker, even the average Nebbiolo fan. Plus, sometimes we open wine for others. Try telling a group that they can only have a thimble of wine because you have to drink it for the next few weeks.
In my experience so far, I've enjoyed most barolos with 15-25 years or so with age. I typically follow the wines in a decanter for the entire evening which can be up to 6 hours or so. I think the most I've followed aged wines is 2 days... afterwards, I've found many fall apart, but perhaps people have different experiences. For young wines (within 5 years of current release), I follow over a few days to see if they evolve. As for the truffle and mushroom character, I feel that's a quality of certain wines. I'm not talking about bretty aromas that often dissipates with air, but are inherent qualities to some wines. I tend to prefer wines that retain some of that floral, red fruit character with hint of sweetness to the fruit, instead of going 100% savory and earthy. Some of the most memorable wines in my journey so far including barolos from the 70s-90s and burgundy from the 80s-90s had these qualities in spades.

Do people have recommendations on vintages in general? I noticed some people pointed towards '12 and '14 which were generally considered cooler, late harvest vintages producing "lighter" wines. Nobody mentioned '11 so I'm guessing best to avoid god-awful hot vintages. Safe to pick in the crus mentioned for more classic vintages like '13 and upcoming '16?
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#37 Post by Juliec » December 4th, 2019, 9:19 pm

Maybe try some Fratelli Alessandria or Productori Barbaresco. Brovia hovers at the 100+ mark limit that you mentioned. There are a number of producers that are right around 100. Other producers you may want to check out is Principiano they have several different Barolos and maybe Trediberri (a little sweeter). Depending on the bottling, there may or may not be a funky nose at the start. Both a older Barbaresco and a Barolo that had tried recently had a bit of a funky nose to start but it reduced over time a bit for the Barbaresco. (It may have been some sulfur, not sure).

I have found Barbaresco’s to be a little lighter in style and smoother. But it’s a personal opinion and may be more due to what producers I have tried.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#38 Post by John Morris » December 4th, 2019, 9:38 pm

NoriY wrote:
December 4th, 2019, 9:06 pm
Do people have recommendations on vintages in general? I noticed some people pointed towards '12 and '14 which were generally considered cooler, late harvest vintages producing "lighter" wines. Nobody mentioned '11 so I'm guessing best to avoid god-awful hot vintages. Safe to pick in the crus mentioned for more classic vintages like '13 and upcoming '16?
2011: A warm year. Not god-awful, but I find many of the wines a little lacking in focus and sometimes they show their alcohol. I'm not crazy about the vintage, but the Produttori crus were very good. Some others have liked it better. Seems generally better than the very warm '09.
2012: Common wisdom is that these are decent but not long-lived wines. There wasn't much excitement about the vintage, but I and some others (e.g., WBer Oliver McCrum, who imports a number of Barolo producers) are fans for the wines' aromatics. I haven't opened any in a while, but they should be approachable relatively early.
2013: A very good year, balanced, with real concentration. The Barolos showed very well early on.
2014: Very difficult in Barolo, where there were hail and rain storms. Some producers such as Brovia didn't bottle crus. Much better in Barbaresco.
2015: A warmer year but sounds like it's still very good if you lean toward that style.
2016: There's a lot of excitement about the vintage. Growing conditions were pretty much ideal -- long and even. I've posted notes on two recent Barbaresco tastings. The wines haven't all showed well, but this may just be an awkward stage:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=164924&p=2847036
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=163486#p2845134

If you want a good reference source with lots of tasting notes, Greg dal Piaz's www.simplybetterwines.com can't be beat.
Last edited by John Morris on December 5th, 2019, 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#39 Post by Greg K » December 5th, 2019, 12:04 am

I’m pretty sure the 15 Barolos are out already. I know I’ve had the 15 Cavallotto here. I’m also very curious to see how the 12s develop. I think I have a bit more faith in that vintage than some others.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#40 Post by Tom Taylor » December 5th, 2019, 2:48 am

Plenty of 2015 Barolo available now. I know the vintage has been characterized as a warm, fruit forward vintage resulting in juicy wines. My experience so far, admittedly fairly limited, has been these wines have more structure and acidity than I would have expected
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#41 Post by Otto Forsberg » December 5th, 2019, 4:25 am

I have had very mixed experiences with 2015. Some have been impressively structured, others super sweet-toned and lacking in acidity. Doesn't seem to be a consistent vintage.

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Re: Floral barolo recs

#42 Post by Greg K » December 5th, 2019, 5:30 am

I tasted a number of the 15s (as well as 16s) last month, and I do think it’s a slightly better vintage than people are giving it credit for. Average vintage is probably about right. I think better than 11 generally.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#43 Post by John Morris » December 5th, 2019, 6:39 am

Greg K wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 12:04 am
I’m pretty sure the 15 Barolos are out already.
Of course, you're right. That will teach me to post after midnight. I was thinking '16s.
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#44 Post by John Morris » December 5th, 2019, 6:41 am

Greg dal Piaz is quite positive about the '15s, and he generally doesn't go for super ripe wines:
https://www.simplybetterwines.com/2015-barolo.html
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Re: Floral barolo recs

#45 Post by Pat Burton » December 5th, 2019, 8:11 am

Greg K wrote:
December 5th, 2019, 12:04 am
I’m pretty sure the 15 Barolos are out already. I know I’ve had the 15 Cavallotto here. I’m also very curious to see how the 12s develop. I think I have a bit more faith in that vintage than some others.
Agree on 2012. I think the wines are approachable early, but not so much this early for my palate. I'm think 10-15 years rather than 25.
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