This may very well be a topic that has already been but I was thinking this while drinking a 10 year old washington state merlot/cab blend.
It seems to me that many washington cabs and/or bdx blends seem to take on a much more profoundly bitter charred-oak profile as they age and the fruit fades- to me the oak in bordeaux is clearly there, but integrates more and becomes more cedar/pencil vs. bitter char.
I was wondering some of the possible reasons as my understanding is that they use similar % of new oak, similar type barrels (mostly french oak, etc), and similar toast levels. I don’t drink a lot of california, so leaving this to my experience in washington. Yes, this is still a broad brush. Deal with it.
Why is this? Too lazy to poll it up.
Scott, you are an idiot and most washington producers use much higher % of new oak and/or toast levels.
Wines are more more fruit forward, versus balanced and structured so they fall apart faster- they just ain’t made to age- It isn’t a difference with the oak.
The higher typical alcohol level of the washington wines extract more of the char/bitter flavors from the oak- once the fruit fades, this is what is left.
I prefer to argue you assertion that washington wines don’t do this at all and you believe you have the palate of a yak.
Lots and lots of bad bottles- try more, or try XYZ producer cuz I have confirmation bias about them and you are doing it wrong.
To make a great wine there’s a lot of trial and error. Washington State is a fairly new Wine region, for instance, first Winery in Walla Walla opened in 1978 and now you have 120+ wineries. In most places in Europe wine has been made for 1000-2000 years and they have gone thru their trial and error, pick their perfect sites for growing grapes and so on.
It’s hard to generalize wine making practices in Walla Walla as they are all over the place. You have producers who use a lot of new oak and you have moderate and then you have some who barely use any new oak. I have had wines from 80’s and 90’s that are drinking great, Woodward Canyons come to mind and then had some from 2000’s that were falling apart.
Personally I think Walla Walla is the best region outside of Bordeaux for growing Merlot and it ages really well.
Alcohol certainly seems to influence oak extraction (and also extraction of different compounds from grape pomace into the must as well).
In some wine fairs I’ve gone through lineups from a single producer and they explain how they use new oak barrels for certain wines and then these barrels are re-used for some other wines. A hypothetical case is that a producer uses new barrels for their 13% top Pinot Noir and then the barrels are re-used for their 14,5% Grenache / Syrah / Sangiovese / whatever AND the latter one turns out to be the oakier one of the two wines. Of course it might be that the top wine (usually the one new barrels are reserved for) can handle oak much better (which is also why new oak is used for it) and the lower-tier wine doesn’t handle oak that well, which is why it shows more readily. However, I’ve experienced this kind of phenomenon multiple times, so I imagine there must be heavier extraction of oak compounds due to the presence of alcohol as well.
Thanks Otto. This was my first hypothesis that if all things were essentially equal, the higher alcohol wine would extract more (and or different) oak flavors.
Since I have sold a lot of oak in my native land I ll put my two cents worth in.
I don’t follow Washington state wines religiously but I have enjoyed excellent older bottles from de Lille, QC, Andrew Will, and Woodward Canyon. WC was my first customer in the Evergreen State. I’ve got some Betz wines ageing as well.
QC does use a lot of oak and these wines are a love em or hate em proposition.
I proposed my theory of ‘if alcohol is a solvent that works on our livers and brains why not on the oak’ theory to the R and D department at the Taransaud cooperage. The results of their studies were not that clear. Ellagitannins are extracted more rapidly with high alc wines but at the end of the day the lower alc wines catch up. I have noted that some brands of barrels work great in France, where the alc levels might be lower, but not here. Is this because of the higher alcs ?? I have no ability to research this as I don’t think Cooperage X would like it if I said, “How come your barrels taste great in France and suck here??” I have also thought that maybe at higher alc some things were pulled out that other wise would be left behind…no proof here.
As I am basically retired from Taransaud, I cannot say what their recent research says. I tended to push for research in this area and does anybody do that now??
I do feel that longer stave seasoning is better for high alc wines but cannot prove it…just an impression. I have helped do experiments showing how seasoning impacts wine flavor but that is another story.
Part of the issue is winemakers in WA learning what does and doesn’t work. Even 10 years ago there was less than half the wineries there are today, in early 2000s there was 1/4, so I’d chalk a bunch of it up to learning curve of what will vineyards/plots/varietals take and what won’t they.
I agree with Otto and Mel. Different compounds extract at different thresholds of alcohol percentage.
But, note that not every woody/tannic/harsh/bitter compound we may taste in a wine that seems like it came from oak, did come from oak.
Add to that, clearly not all high ABV wines have that harsh bitter aspect to them. (I’m “blessed” in being sensitive to it, so pick it up in big, young wines, where most tasters don’t.) Some bitter extraction in high ABV wines have a harsh green aspect, that would make seeds the prime (but not only) suspect.
Temperature is also a factor when this is a grape material issue, as is time. A high temperature fermentation can (key word) achieve a better extraction of “good stuff” and produce esters that make a wine seem “riper”.
Interesting stuff. Agree that there are many high ABV wines that don’t develop that bitter streak, but was thinking it could be explained that they used less new oak or lighter toast, etc. Clearly a ton of variables here. I have had some lovely aged washington wines, including some old deille and woodward, but find myself second guessing as to whether I have become more sensitive to this aspect, or has the wine making changes. Ultinately worried about the evolution of the wines in my own cellar now.
Brian
Years ago we did an experiment at Saintsbury. Three toast levels, three air drying regimens…
The results showed that the longer the seasoning the more subtle the flavor… the shorter seasoning produced more toastiness, more smoked meat character and more astringency.
As some have pointed out, with longer airdry you get more expensive barrels and less oakiness!
but I was thinking this while drinking a 10 year old washington state merlot/cab blend.