Ponsot...in general

I have only a few bottles of Ponsot Clos de la Roche V.V. in the cellar, spread around a few vintages…1999, 2001, 2005, 2010…although I have not yet opened any as of yet.
It seems like, more than almost any other red Burg, this wine is almost universally judged to be stellar upon release, consistently receiving praise and 95-98 scores and priced into the stratosphere, and yet it seems to be beset by bottle variation and other issues as they age…at least according to many reviews.

Burghound quotes of maturing examples from various top vintages years down the line include such enticing descriptions as:
“…slightly funky nose of murky and somewhat dull fruit”
“…edgy and mildly drying finale. It’s hard to know how much of the problem with the finish is attributable to the brett…”
“…somewhat worryingly a fourth bottle displayed enough brett to notice.”
“…I should note that I have experienced a tremendous amount of bottle variation with this wine, including any number of corked and/or funky examples. Indeed I recently did an event where 6 bottles of this wine were opened and all 6 were between slightly to overtly flawed.”
“I have had pretty consistent experiences with this wine save for one recent bottle that was very badly reduced and another that was so riddled with brett that for my taste it was undrinkable”

From Neal Martin, on an '05 tasted blind: “it tasted nothing like a Burgundy, let alone a Clos de la Roche.”
Not to mention numerous notes mentioning musty aromas of old barrels, etc.

Never have I come across a wine so lauded upon release and so seemingly inconsistent as it ages.
So, I would love to hear what experiences and thoughts others might have.

We had '10 Corton and '13 Mont Luisants Blanc last weekend.
The Corton was ‘off,’ with a stewed fruit and dull rhubarb taste.
The Blanc was spectacular.

What vintages are those notes from?

Yes, I have had some vintages that were quite funky, like 1997, and one of the ones you own, 2001. However, I find that there is always a funky quality with Clos de la Roche and Clos St. Denis, and find it quite charming. Some years definitely have more than others. The 99 wears the funk better than the other two vintages I note. I have found that 2005 and forward that the wines are much clear. Examples I’ve had were 2006 (several times) and 2008 that should real purity. The 2009 and 2010 were both massive and young, but I didn’t notice any funk.

Having said that, 85 Clos de la Roche VV is still in my top 5 wines of all time :slight_smile:

80, 85, 99 all great. With the new plastic closure I have stopped buying. Didn’t like 97. Passing on Ponsot.

The best of the bottles I’ve tasted are passable. Many are muddy. Certainly not worth the price, they are on my Do Not Buy list.

I had the 99 and 05 Clos de la Roche two weeks ago. The 99 was stellar, easily one of the best red Burgs I’ve had recently. The 05 wasn’t as open and held a lot in reserve, but both were excellent bottles. A case of 85 CdlR bought on release has only gotten better over the years and my last bottle was nearly perfect. The 2004 has bad serious issues with the greenies although a couple bottles were decent but not up to the quality I expect.

It’s tough to understand the original Clos de la Roche vineyard (it’s been aggressively expanded over the years) without going through Ponsot, as the family domaine owns 3 of the 4 hectares of it. I’m unclear on who may have the other piece/s. Did some digging a while back and couldn’t link H Lignier or Dujac as owners of the original CdlR vineyard either.

Laurent is known for picking late, often gambling in cooler years. He doesn’t like new oak, to the point he wants his barrels at least five years old. Because of this they can be seen as lighter impact GC’s. Nods to biodynamic, and doesn’t use pesticides but don’t think he ever persued certification. Conscious of using minimal sulphur, and of course went to great lengths to avoid corked bottles. He seems to share a lot of the board’s group think, but the inconsistency in bottle and vintage is definitely there. Maybe he takes too many chances, and could’ve used a co-pilot. But also believe too many of his CdlR’s are opened too young. Will start thinking about opening mine around the 20 year mark, but would rather be in the 25-30 year range.

Too inconsistent to be on regular buying list.

I have had two exceptional bottles of the 2002 Charmes-Chambertin Cuvée des Merles. While this is not the vineyard you’re referencing I’ve had nothing but really great bottles. I’ve never had the CdlR from Ponsot but would love to remedy that sometime down the road.

I’ve had bad luck with the 2008 Charmes-Chambertin and a very disappointing 1999 Clos de la Roche in recent years, along with a corked 1998 Clos de la Roche which I put in a different category as bad corks are more universal.

No, I don´t 2nd that. I did a comprehensive CdlRoche /CStDenis-tasting 2 years ago (14 bottles each) - and there were no general funk to detect, also not in 2001 and 2008 Ponsot.
However the performance of Ponsot in general is very inconsistent. Mid-90s vintages often were “off” early on, browning, slightly oxidized (also the accidental cork), unclean, without any great potential … 1996 usually being the worst.
However I had a very good 1996 CdlR last year that was clearly better. [scratch.gif]

On the other hand some Ponsots have been really spectacular, 1985, 1989, 1991, 2002 … but I´m very suspicious about the new “plastic” closures they use since 2008 … the acidity seems to be elevated and not well integrated … reduced fruit … judgement reserved, and I never buy more than one bottle (Griottes or ChM Charmes) for immediate tasting … I have better choices for my money.
I also don´t know how it will be in the future without Laurent …

One interesting point I remember from a discussion with a producer in Gevrey 2 weeks ago, when discussing lower percentage of new oak being used is that he said people underestimate how difficult it is to keep these “clean”. Just wondering how much some noise around increase of brett may have to do with producers dialing back new oak but not handling the old barrels perfectly.

That’s an interesting point for sure. Oak is a huge element in fine wine obviously, and I feel it’s often misunderstood. Group think now is often “least amount of new oak makes the best wine” but it’s not as simple as that. It does seem though, that an obvious marketing strategy of today is mentioning “we’re using less new oak” as it’s what most buyers and collectors want to hear.

This is a little academic, since Laurent Ponsot’s last vintage vinified at the Domaine was 2016. While it is still early days, I have been very favorably impressed by Alex Abel, the new winemaker, and my intuition is that the wines will be more consistent going forward. 1982 was Jean Marie Ponsot’s last vintage and almost everything I have had before that and including date has been terrific. Laurent’s tenure was more inconsistent, but with some very notable highlights, the 1999 cited here being among the most prominent. Today, the holdings are incredible, the style is singular, and there are competent people in charge, so I would say the future is bright.

Also, as an addendum, anyone who has seen the Monts Luisants old vine Aligoté holdings would be under no illusions about nodding to organics / biodynamics. That will change in the future, I am sure, but those steeper parcels were always resolutely ‘conventional’ in their farming.

With the provisio that I know nothing whatsoever about the topic at hand, my overwhelming impression from reading the replies on this thread was of yet more persistent ubiquitous pandemic Pop-N-Pour Infanticide from Wine Caananites Carthaginians Berserkers.

Almost everything people here [to include Stephen Tanzer] are describing could very well be precisely the sort of bottle funk which might blow off after a day [or three] of patient coaxing.

But since everyone in greater Oenophilia Inc is hell bent on pop-n-pour-infanticiding their wines, the world will never know.

That’s interesting. Are there reasons related to the steepness? I’ve absolutely loved the couple of bottles of this that I’ve had, by the way.

Ian, as to vintages, let’s see:

1993: “A slightly funky nose of murky and somewhat dull fruit is followed by medium weight and equally dull flavors that seemed to be at once tired yet edgy.”
2008: “…edgy and mildly drying finale. It’s hard to know how much of the problem with the finish is attributable to the brett…”
1999: Good review, score 93 but “somewhat worryingly a fourth bottle displayed enough brett to notice.”
2001: Good review, score 93 but “Notwithstanding the laudatory description above I should note that I have experienced a tremendous amount of bottle variation with this wine, including any number of corked and/or funky examples. Indeed I recently did an event where 6 bottles of this wine were opened and all 6 were between slightly to overtly flawed.”
1998: “I have had pretty consistent experiences with this wine save for one recent bottle that was very badly reduced and another that was so riddled with brett that for my taste it was undrinkable.”

Both Neal Martin’s and Steve Tanzer’s notes on the 2005 from bottle, after impressing them greatly from barrel, were scored with question marks…NM’s based on a blind tasting in 2019, Steve’s long note (not copied in my post) was from a bottle sampled in 2008, and he stated: “If my cork was not perfect, then the juice in the bottle is probably a 98-pointer; but if my bottle was sealed with a perfectly sound cork, then an otherwise extraordinary wine will wear a whiff of faulty cooperage through its life like a scarlet “O”.”

I posted this in regard to what seemed like significant inconsistency in a wine that I own but had not yet tasted, and was just wondering if people on the boards had similar experiences, or knew what the winemaking techniques are that Ponsot used that might lead to sometimes profound but sometimes bad (musty, bretty, or otherwise “damaged”) wine…which makes the high prices for this wine a risky purchase.
Not that I am any longer a buyer, based on price and risk.

BTW, it seems like notes on older vintages, perhaps 1990 and earlier, do not mention this apparent inconsistency.

I had 3 bottles of the 2001 in the last 2 years, all of which had some fun, good funk on them. No overbearing, but also not offensive.

The 2008 I had was super clean though.

I haven’t had a lot of vintages but I think 91 is killer good!

Certainly variable wines but when they are on they are on.

The '99 CdlR has been splendid on multiple occasions. I’ve had the '02, 06 and '14 CdlR over the past 12 months or so and they have also all been very good.

We did Griotte-Chambertin on Monday night and had Ponsot '08 (oxidised, even with plastic tampon seal), '09 ( a little astringent), '10 (some V.A but really good), '14 (complete and quite superb), '16 (made by Laurent, really good).