Wines helped by climate change

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Howard Cooper
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Wines helped by climate change

#1 Post by Howard Cooper » November 12th, 2019, 6:59 am

Certainly climate change is a disaster for the world, but right now it is a mixed blessing for wine regions. In some wine regions, the wines are getting too hot (higher sugar levels = more alcohol) while other regions are experiencing many more excellent vintages than ever before. And, in some regions the results are mixed - many great vintages of German wines but a lot of people lamenting that there are no true Kabinetts anymore.

Someone else can chime in on wines that they think have been hurt by climate change. This thread is about the wines you think may have been helped. Certainly, a lot of factors are involved - better farming practices, new generations of winemakers taking over, etc., and we may be wrong about the cause of the improvement of wines in a region or subregion, but this thread is for your thoughts. Hope is to capture wines that have improved where the market has not yet caught up with the improvements.

My vote is for red Chassagne-Montrachet. I am becoming a big fan of these wines. Maybe the wines were always this good (I don't think so, but maybe my palate is just more mature (or feeble)), maybe I am just drinking wines from great producers like Ramonet and Bernard Moreau, but these wines seem to have more depth to them than I remember from my youth. I am thinking that the soil always gave the wine complexity (see the whites) but that the extra warmth of recent vintages are also giving them more body.

Any other thoughts? Anyone agree or disagree with me on this one?
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#2 Post by Victor Hong » November 12th, 2019, 7:02 am

Kentish pinot noir and chardonnay are benefitting.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#3 Post by Todd Tucker » November 12th, 2019, 7:00 pm

I think Loire reds may be benefitting.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#4 Post by GregT » November 12th, 2019, 7:21 pm

Just read an article in about how the Brits are working with Swiss grapes and think they'll be able to do reds. The Swiss too are probably helped. Anywhere cold probably - NY and MI are making better wine than ever.

But in Spain they're literally heading for the hills and afraid some places will just be too hot in the future.

All in all, I'm happy for the better vintages but I'd just as soon not be seeing it during my lifetime.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#5 Post by RichardFlack » November 12th, 2019, 9:00 pm

I think its sometimes hard to disentangle improved (or, rather, modified) wine-making from climate change. Also it will be a while before we have info on the impact on how the wines age.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#6 Post by A. So » November 12th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Mosel
エaイdドrリiアaンn (93 pts.)

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#7 Post by Jonathan Sirot » November 13th, 2019, 1:46 am

I personally think Champagne is getting better than ever. It seems like it's been very seldom lately that there is not a declared year. And the 90s 96s 02s 08s and now 12 were all amazing vintages

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#8 Post by HMechbal » November 13th, 2019, 2:41 am

Switzerland. There are some Syrah in the Valais region reminiscent of Northern Rhone wines.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#9 Post by Russell Faulkner » November 13th, 2019, 3:35 am

I think the ‘right now’ bit is key. I suspect most of the regions that may have ‘benefited’ to date won’t be the same in 20,50,100 years.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#10 Post by Dennis Borczon » November 13th, 2019, 4:53 am

Ontario, Great Lakes regions in US generally. Producers used to have to hang reds to dehydrate and get sugar levels up. Now fruit is ripening along the razors edge that used to be Burgundy. With money and time, equipment and techniques are getting better allowing for even better handling of fruit that is getting riper. Agree, lots of factors here but technology and information are clearly leveling the playing field for many wine regions.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#11 Post by Henry Kiichli » November 13th, 2019, 4:57 am

German reds, especially pinot noir (Spätburgunder).
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#12 Post by Hank Victor » November 13th, 2019, 5:06 am

Southern England might be the biggest short term winner.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#13 Post by Howard Cooper » November 13th, 2019, 5:13 am

A. So wrote:
November 12th, 2019, 9:07 pm
Mosel
For me, more Saar than Mosel. The misses in the Mosel used to be underripe vintages. Now, they are vintages with insufficient acidity. IMHO, in some of these vintages (and this dates back to 1989) wines from the Saar have the extra ripeness that modern weather provides while retaining acidity in these warmer vintages.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#14 Post by Doug Schulman » November 13th, 2019, 6:39 am

I agree on Loire reds, German reds, southern England (maybe especially since what's happening there might not have been possible 25 years ago), and Mosel (including tributaries).

Howard, I know what you're saying about some vintages lacking acidity along the Mosel itself, but I think this is more about personal preference than quality. Plenty of relatively low acid vintages are aging very well. The underripe vintages of the past were true disasters for a lot of producers. Even if there is an argument for lower quality because of too little acidity for sweet styles in some vintages (I think there is to an extent), those wines are still much better than the wines from really bad vintages in past generations. The wines are more consistently good than they ever were, in my opinion.

Muscadet seems to be benefiting, but maybe that has more to do with which wines I taste than what's really happening. Plus, I like the really ripe vintages there.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#15 Post by Howard Cooper » November 13th, 2019, 10:03 am

Doug Schulman wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 6:39 am


Howard, I know what you're saying about some vintages lacking acidity along the Mosel itself, but I think this is more about personal preference than quality. Plenty of relatively low acid vintages are aging very well. The underripe vintages of the past were true disasters for a lot of producers. Even if there is an argument for lower quality because of too little acidity for sweet styles in some vintages (I think there is to an extent), those wines are still much better than the wines from really bad vintages in past generations. The wines are more consistently good than they ever were, in my opinion.
I completely agree that the wines are much better in lesser vintages today than they were in Germany when I first started drinking wine. No question. I still think the Saar has been a bigger beneficiary than the Mosel. When a vintage like 2018 comes along today, I first think of Saar wines.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#16 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » November 13th, 2019, 10:41 am

Loire reds. Not sure I want change to the Loire whites, generally speaking.

We definitely seem to be having greater consistency in Loire Cab Franc vintages, through other factors, such as farming and winemaking approach, surely play some role.

Does anyone else think that we also seem to be having more good to very good+ vintages from Bordeaux than in recent past? I bought Bordeaux already this decade in 2010, 12, 14, 15 and 16, plus some select Pomerol in 2011. And reputedly 2018 is very good.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#17 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » November 13th, 2019, 10:50 am

Howard, I definitely think you’re on the money with C-M reds. They used to be a good value for those willing to cellar them for a decade, but they still age well and IMO are definitely a notch or two better than they used to be.
I think that Loire reds are also improving, and it’s hard to argue with the new wines in England. Historically Chablis used to lose vintages regularly, and that seems like a fable now.

I would add Oregon to the list as well. While winemakers need to make adjustments to keep the wines from become over ripe or lacking in acidity, we simply don’t have challenging vintages nearly as often now as in the 80s and 90s. We still have excellent vintage variation(I have taken to saying that in the Willamette Valley, Mother Nature is capricious rather than catastrophic. 2019 is a perfect example of that.)
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#18 Post by Chris Seiber » November 13th, 2019, 11:40 am

RichardFlack wrote:
November 12th, 2019, 9:00 pm
I think its sometimes hard to disentangle improved (or, rather, modified) wine-making from climate change. Also it will be a while before we have info on the impact on how the wines age.
Definitely. Vineyard management, winemaking technologies and techniques, combined with customer preferences, have played a large role in what has changed in the bottle in the last several decades.

Anyway, regardless of the root causes, it's an interesting question which wine regions are benefiting from the ability to make wines with more ripeness. Loire reds are a good example. I wonder if Champagne, and the increasing ability to make good Champagne with little or no dosage, is another example.

I'd love to see more good wines from Humboldt, though I fear that region will just continue to expand marijuana production instead.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#19 Post by RichardFlack » November 13th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Cru Beaujolais which has been on a tear since 2009 or so, might be a discussion point - climate vs wine making?

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#20 Post by Andrew Morris » November 13th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 11:40 am
RichardFlack wrote:
November 12th, 2019, 9:00 pm
I think its sometimes hard to disentangle improved (or, rather, modified) wine-making from climate change. Also it will be a while before we have info on the impact on how the wines age.
Definitely. Vineyard management, winemaking technologies and techniques, combined with customer preferences, have played a large role in what has changed in the bottle in the last several decades.

Anyway, regardless of the root causes, it's an interesting question which wine regions are benefiting from the ability to make wines with more ripeness. Loire reds are a good example. I wonder if Champagne, and the increasing ability to make good Champagne with little or no dosage, is another example.

I'd love to see more good wines from Humboldt, though I fear that region will just continue to expand marijuana production instead.
The winemakers and grape farmers of Humboldt appreciate all of the support and confidence the board has for our region.

As weather trends warmer, certain vineyards on the warm edge of the range for the varietal may be problematic.

The broader trend is that fewer years have harvest forced by season ending storms. The result is grapes are being picked at the winemaker's choice rather than mother nature's.

The big issue we continue to have is the availability of a trained labor force for vineyard work and harvest. I saw one vineyard let 30-40 tons of PN hang because it had been farmed badly, had issues, and This has to do with many factors including high housing costs due to limited development due to limited water. Plus, we now compete with legal weed farms rather than illegal ones for workers.

Labor and other infrastructure issues are the impediments, along with rugged terrain, to increased production of quality wine from Humboldt.

My POV.

BTW, there are few 75s and a 78 in the forecast for this week and no real rain yet. This is not normal weather for this time of year.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#21 Post by Howard Cooper » November 13th, 2019, 3:48 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 11:40 am
I wonder if Champagne, and the increasing ability to make good Champagne with little or no dosage, is another example.

Would not be surprising. My guess is changes in climate are a factor in allowing some German regions to make better dry wine than 40 years ago.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#22 Post by Kelly Walker » November 13th, 2019, 4:24 pm

Barbera d’Alba. Much of the barbera is planted at the top of vineyards not suitable for nebbiolo. The barbera tended to be difficult to ripen. Now these upper areas ripening on a more consistent basis. I always preferred Barbera d’Asti because the grapes were planted at better elevation. That is changing.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#23 Post by Chris Seiber » November 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm

I can't say I've observed if there is a change or if it's for the better, but I could imagine Alto Piemonte wines improving if the growers are able to get the grapes a bit riper.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#24 Post by Howard Cooper » November 13th, 2019, 5:40 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:41 am
Loire reds. Not sure I want change to the Loire whites, generally speaking.

We definitely seem to be having greater consistency in Loire Cab Franc vintages, through other factors, such as farming and winemaking approach, surely play some role.

Does anyone else think that we also seem to be having more good to very good+ vintages from Bordeaux than in recent past? I bought Bordeaux already this decade in 2010, 12, 14, 15 and 16, plus some select Pomerol in 2011. And reputedly 2018 is very good.
When I was younger, the only places I knew of for Loire Cab Franc were Chinon and Bourgueil. Now, Saumur seems to be a really hot place for this. Has Saumur changed, is this the result of one or more superstar producers, has it always been really good but under the radar, has climate change made a difference here?
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#25 Post by Rory K. » November 13th, 2019, 7:53 pm

The frequency of excellent vintages in Barolo/Barbaresco seems to be increasing, but as mentioned, this is a short term benefit as the frequency of hot vintages is also on the up
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#26 Post by Eric Lundblad » November 13th, 2019, 10:15 pm

I'm not sure that's true wrt Barolo (and maybe Barbaresco, not sure there). The alc & ripeness is increasing to a level where the balance is changing. Maybe it'll change to something else interesting, but maybe it won't be the magical wines that live for 50+ years and still need to be decanted all day to unlock their secrets
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#27 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » November 13th, 2019, 10:48 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 5:40 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:41 am
Loire reds. Not sure I want change to the Loire whites, generally speaking.

We definitely seem to be having greater consistency in Loire Cab Franc vintages, through other factors, such as farming and winemaking approach, surely play some role.

Does anyone else think that we also seem to be having more good to very good+ vintages from Bordeaux than in recent past? I bought Bordeaux already this decade in 2010, 12, 14, 15 and 16, plus some select Pomerol in 2011. And reputedly 2018 is very good.
When I was younger, the only places I knew of for Loire Cab Franc were Chinon and Bourgueil. Now, Saumur seems to be a really hot place for this. Has Saumur changed, is this the result of one or more superstar producers, has it always been really good but under the radar, has climate change made a difference here?
Back in 2001 I was pouring a Saumur Champigny red by the glass that was my favorite wine we had btg. I sold 1-2 bottles per week though, while the other glass pours were 2-3 cases per week. The wine was dynamite though even when open for 3-4 days.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#28 Post by A Songeur » November 14th, 2019, 12:38 am

MMMMhhh.... I understand... wines are getting better... not my fault... global warming...yep, let's have a bit more... I'll try this one on my best part "I drink more because it gets better..".... so transparent... she is going to love it
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#29 Post by Howard Cooper » November 14th, 2019, 5:31 am

A Songeur wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 12:38 am
MMMMhhh.... I understand... wines are getting better... not my fault... global warming...yep, let's have a bit more... I'll try this one on my best part "I drink more because it gets better..".... so transparent... she is going to love it
Did you read the first sentence of my OP? I drive an EV and have solar panels on my house - how about you?
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#30 Post by CJ Beazley » November 14th, 2019, 5:38 am

Henry Kiichli wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 4:57 am
German reds, especially pinot noir (Spätburgunder).
My first thought also.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#31 Post by Howard Cooper » November 14th, 2019, 5:46 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:48 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 5:40 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:41 am
Loire reds. Not sure I want change to the Loire whites, generally speaking.

We definitely seem to be having greater consistency in Loire Cab Franc vintages, through other factors, such as farming and winemaking approach, surely play some role.

Does anyone else think that we also seem to be having more good to very good+ vintages from Bordeaux than in recent past? I bought Bordeaux already this decade in 2010, 12, 14, 15 and 16, plus some select Pomerol in 2011. And reputedly 2018 is very good.
When I was younger, the only places I knew of for Loire Cab Franc were Chinon and Bourgueil. Now, Saumur seems to be a really hot place for this. Has Saumur changed, is this the result of one or more superstar producers, has it always been really good but under the radar, has climate change made a difference here?
Back in 2001 I was pouring a Saumur Champigny red by the glass that was my favorite wine we had btg. I sold 1-2 bottles per week though, while the other glass pours were 2-3 cases per week. The wine was dynamite though even when open for 3-4 days.
Interesting. I was vaguely familiar with the fact that wines were made in Saumur but thought of it as an inferior site until several years ago when I began hearing about Clos Rougeard. I like wines from the Loire including reds but it is not one of my top areas of focus, so it is not surprising that I am not really up to date on all the top wines from the Loire but now it seems like Saumur is the hottest area there. https://punchdrink.com/articles/how-sau ... -rougeard/
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#32 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 6:04 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:03 am
Doug Schulman wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 6:39 am


Howard, I know what you're saying about some vintages lacking acidity along the Mosel itself, but I think this is more about personal preference than quality. Plenty of relatively low acid vintages are aging very well. The underripe vintages of the past were true disasters for a lot of producers. Even if there is an argument for lower quality because of too little acidity for sweet styles in some vintages (I think there is to an extent), those wines are still much better than the wines from really bad vintages in past generations. The wines are more consistently good than they ever were, in my opinion.
I completely agree that the wines are much better in lesser vintages today than they were in Germany when I first started drinking wine. No question. I still think the Saar has been a bigger beneficiary than the Mosel. When a vintage like 2018 comes along today, I first think of Saar wines.
I'm kind of with you on this, Howard.

Apart from acidity levels, the sweet wines have gotten sweeter as fruit has come in at higher Brix/Oechsle levels, leading to a lot of cascading/declassification. In too many vintages, Kabinetts taste like Spatleses of yore (and have their sugar levels), and Spateleses like old-fashioned Ausleses.

The good thing is that there are a lot of outstanding QbA bottlings!
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#33 Post by Nathan V. » November 14th, 2019, 6:07 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 5:46 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:48 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 5:40 pm


When I was younger, the only places I knew of for Loire Cab Franc were Chinon and Bourgueil. Now, Saumur seems to be a really hot place for this. Has Saumur changed, is this the result of one or more superstar producers, has it always been really good but under the radar, has climate change made a difference here?
Back in 2001 I was pouring a Saumur Champigny red by the glass that was my favorite wine we had btg. I sold 1-2 bottles per week though, while the other glass pours were 2-3 cases per week. The wine was dynamite though even when open for 3-4 days.
Interesting. I was vaguely familiar with the fact that wines were made in Saumur but thought of it as an inferior site until several years ago when I began hearing about Clos Rougeard. I like wines from the Loire including reds but it is not one of my top areas of focus, so it is not surprising that I am not really up to date on all the top wines from the Loire but now it seems like Saumur is the hottest area there. https://punchdrink.com/articles/how-sau ... -rougeard/
Saumur and Saumur-Champigny have been important viticultural areas for centuries.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#34 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 6:08 am

Rory K. wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 7:53 pm
The frequency of excellent vintages in Barolo/Barbaresco seems to be increasing, but as mentioned, this is a short term benefit as the frequency of hot vintages is also on the up
Eric Lundblad wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:15 pm
I'm not sure that's true wrt Barolo (and maybe Barbaresco, not sure there). The alc & ripeness is increasing to a level where the balance is changing. Maybe it'll change to something else interesting, but maybe it won't be the magical wines that live for 50+ years and still need to be decanted all day to unlock their secrets
Yes, there have been very few write-off vintages since 1994 (rain and hail in 2002, excessive heat in 2003, devastating hail in 2017). But the alcohol (sometimes up to 15%) shows on some young nebbiolos now, and it's hard to think that's a good thing.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#35 Post by Howard Cooper » November 14th, 2019, 6:10 am

John Morris wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:04 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 10:03 am
Doug Schulman wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 6:39 am


Howard, I know what you're saying about some vintages lacking acidity along the Mosel itself, but I think this is more about personal preference than quality. Plenty of relatively low acid vintages are aging very well. The underripe vintages of the past were true disasters for a lot of producers. Even if there is an argument for lower quality because of too little acidity for sweet styles in some vintages (I think there is to an extent), those wines are still much better than the wines from really bad vintages in past generations. The wines are more consistently good than they ever were, in my opinion.
I completely agree that the wines are much better in lesser vintages today than they were in Germany when I first started drinking wine. No question. I still think the Saar has been a bigger beneficiary than the Mosel. When a vintage like 2018 comes along today, I first think of Saar wines.
I'm kind of with you on this, Howard.

Apart from acidity levels, the sweet wines have gotten sweeter as fruit has come in at higher Brix/Oechsle levels, leading to a lot of cascading/declassification. In too many vintages, Kabinetts taste like Spatleses of yore (and have their sugar levels), and Spateleses like old-fashioned Ausleses.

The good thing is that there are a lot of outstanding QbA bottlings!
Also, there still are vintages like 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 with good acidity, at least some places. It is strange to me that these types of vintages are now outliers and offputting to many younger drinkers of German wines.
Howard

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » November 14th, 2019, 6:12 am

John Morris wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:08 am
But the alcohol (sometimes up to 15%) shows on some young nebbiolos now, and it's hard to think that's a good thing.
That is certainly true in a lot of regions - most of the great Cabernet Sauvignon regions, for example.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#37 Post by R Roberts » November 14th, 2019, 7:37 am

I thought Aldo Vacca mentioned in a podcast(?) its benefiting the wines of Produttori. For now.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#38 Post by Julian Marshall » November 14th, 2019, 9:06 am

Hard to argue with the Loire, especially reds. I don't know if the Loire has ever had such a run of very good to great vintages, from 2014 to 2018, with 2019 to be confirmed. The only problem has been the spring frosts, which are perhaps also down to the change.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#39 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 9:18 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:12 am
John Morris wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:08 am
But the alcohol (sometimes up to 15%) shows on some young nebbiolos now, and it's hard to think that's a good thing.
That is certainly true in a lot of regions - most of the great Cabernet Sauvignon regions, for example.
Unlike in Bordeaux and New World cab regions, I don't think the Piemontese are particularly aiming for a bigger, riper style. Where that's happened, it seemed to be mostly a function of the weather.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#40 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » November 14th, 2019, 9:21 am

Burgundy? [pile-on.gif]

It's a razors edge type situation and it's very hard to distinguish the effects of greater resources and winemaking skill from climate, but has Burgundy ever seen a run of good to great vintages like 2002 to the present? I guess a lot will depend on what you think about 2009/2015/2018.

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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#41 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 9:33 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:10 am
Also, there still are vintages like 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 with good acidity, at least some places. It is strange to me that these types of vintages are now outliers and offputting to many younger drinkers of German wines.
I'm not a younger drinker of German wines ( [wink.gif] ), but I found the acid in 2010 very offputting. I felt like it would take the enamel off my teeth. Never had that reaction in any other vintage (loved the lower Pradikat '15s), and I'm a fan of Saar and Ruwer wines.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#42 Post by A. So » November 14th, 2019, 9:42 am

Mosel/Nahe 2010s are great in the Auslese+ Prädikats. Anything lower is too shrill with the acids.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#43 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 10:06 am

I was thinking of Spatlese and Kabinett. Never had much experience with the higher level wines.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#44 Post by Howard Cooper » November 14th, 2019, 1:49 pm

John Morris wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 9:33 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
November 14th, 2019, 6:10 am
Also, there still are vintages like 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 with good acidity, at least some places. It is strange to me that these types of vintages are now outliers and offputting to many younger drinkers of German wines.
I'm not a younger drinker of German wines ( [wink.gif] ), but I found the acid in 2010 very offputting. I felt like it would take the enamel off my teeth. Never had that reaction in any other vintage (loved the lower Pradikat '15s), and I'm a fan of Saar and Ruwer wines.
Interesting. I love 2010s, particularly in higher pradikats. Never had so many really good Auslesen.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#45 Post by John Morris » November 14th, 2019, 2:20 pm

As I said, my experience was mainly with the lower Pradikats. I can imagine that the acid might have played nicely in Auseles, TBAs, etc.
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Re: Wines helped by climate change

#46 Post by K John Joseph » November 14th, 2019, 2:44 pm

Henry Kiichli wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 4:57 am
German reds, especially pinot noir (Spätburgunder).
And actual Burgundy.
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