Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

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D@vid Bu3ker
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#151 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 25th, 2019, 9:47 am

I have never had a breakage issue with pulp/cardboard inserts. Knock on wood.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#152 Post by aaronfullen » October 25th, 2019, 9:56 am

Markus S wrote:
October 25th, 2019, 7:41 am
aaronfullen wrote:
October 25th, 2019, 5:29 am
Not to be an ass here, but you talk about a world that's beautiful. A couple questions for you:

-How did the Whistling Ridge Vineyard get it's name? Probably because wind whistled through whatever trees were there before they were cut down to plant grapes, right?

-How about Fir Crest Vineyard? I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume it didn't get it's name because the ancient indigenous Pinot Noir vines were particularly Firry.

Lastly, how about Deux Vert Vineyard? Again, just one guy talking here but guessing this wasn't named after the two green Syrah and Viognier grapevines.

If you're going to clear cut little bits of the lungs of the earth so that you can grow a a delicious luxury item, it seems to me that the best way to ensure those trees didn't die in vain is to make sure that wine is 100% great.

But maybe that's just me.
Think it is just you. I don't know any of those vineyards you referenced. Most European wines are grown in places that forests don't grow (think of Spain and Sicily for example) or where trees haven't grown in hundreds of years. By the early Middle Ages, much of forested Europe was already cut down for farming and agriculture to support growing cities and population. Same with the USA. Much of the original 13 colonies, particularly where there were people settling (like MA, PA, NY, CT) had over 90% of forestland chopped down for agriculture, but look at today: most of those same areas are forested again as regrowth has occurred in roughly a hundred years. These environments are not static. But this doesn't mean you try to shepherd the (limited) resources we have now.
These are three of the vineyards from which Markus sources grapes to make wines for Goodfellow. All are in Oregon.

-af

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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#153 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » October 25th, 2019, 9:45 pm

aaronfullen wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 12:42 pm
Markus S wrote:
October 22nd, 2019, 12:25 pm
aaronfullen wrote:
October 21st, 2019, 1:28 pm
The environmental elephant in the room here is that we're wine drinkers. There are roughly 29,000 square miles of wine grapevines planted world-wide. That's a space roughly the size of South Carolina, not including the accompanying facilities to make the wines themselves. How much better would the environment be if that were untouched (or at least second growth) forest?
You really want to go down this route?
Think of oil palm plantations, animal grazing, lands extracted for oil-gas-minerals-building materials, green lawns on city and suburban streets...
Yep, all that too.

I just don't think you can call yourself an environmentalist if you're chilling 2000 bottles of alcohol at 55 degrees that were shipped over oceans, regardless of whether the last mile was packing peanuts, styro, ballistic gel or depleted uranium.

Until we go fast-breeder, modular nuclear and electrify everything but air-travel, the only way we'll save ourselves is to grow all our own food, max out at one kid and start using chickens as currency to buy buckskin pants that we'll wear for twenty years between showers.

I'd rather spend my very limited intellectual horsepower trying to figure out how to get my government to pull their heads out of their asses on the nuclear issue than get galloping green agita over straws and wine shippers.

-af
Don’t think I ever called myself an environmentalist. Although we do work hard to minimize the wineries impact on the environment, the use of glass bottles alone removes my feeling that we are a “green” business.

I grew up on an 80 acre timber farm. The old growth in most of the Willamette Valley has been gone for longer than the Oregon wine industry has existed. The loss of trees is something everyone should be cognizant of, but trees are renewable. Styrofoam is primarily a single use product that will spend the next million years in the landfill doing nothing but breaking down into smaller pieces. Arriving at David’s house is just the first step.

It’s an easy switch. It does cost more, and we opted to eat that cost in the winery rather than pass it on to consumers.


The strangest thing to me in your posts is how hard you are working to be able to free yourself from giving a shit. The “it’s already screwed up, so I don’t need care about any of it” comes across as trying to validate your own choices that you seem to have an issue with. You do refer to yourself as a bigger environmental pig than
99% of us. If your ok with that, then why bother to post? I’m just another environmentalist hypocrite...who cares?

Spending the time to catalogue the damage wineries do to the world so completely kind of suggests that you may care after all...
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#154 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » October 25th, 2019, 10:00 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 10:02 am
Every positive thing you do for the environment (or anything else) is a positive and better than not doing it, so I'm not discouraging anyone from advocating for better materials, reusing boxes, and so forth.

But we probably shouldn't congratulate ourselves very much for whatever we do. If we're honest, our habit of having 4 pound bottles and 48 pound cases shipped around the country and the world by plane, truck and/or boat, and all the packaging materials and energy consumption that surrounds that, is quite environmentally unfriendly.

In environmentalism, as in many other things, I've noticed there is kind of a substitution effect, where doing a few small good things (recycling, or at least dumping things in recycling bins and telling ourselves they're getting recycled, driving a Prius, sending some money to an environmental charity) alleviates our consciences for doing much larger bad things (air travel, buying tons of stuff on the internet for home delivery, owning one or more big houses). People do that all the time with morality/religion/ethics, diet, parenting, and so forth.

Probably most people who read this far are thinking "not me, that's just other people." Okay, but it's probably worth a harder look from time to time.
Great post.

Whether it alleviates my conscience or not, often small things are the things that we can do. And major change is embarassingly hard to achieve.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#155 Post by Jason T » October 26th, 2019, 2:11 am

Not to hijack this thread but it would be nice if some producers went with lighter/thinner bottles. I’m not talking about shape but weight. I’ve noticed some producers bottle weights are significantly higher than others, adding up to a couple pound difference over a case.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#156 Post by Gray G » October 26th, 2019, 6:02 am

Al Osterheld wrote:
October 25th, 2019, 6:49 am
Mass market wine isn't shipped in styrofoam or pulp.

-Al
you dismissed my point, as no one covets mass market wine, yet the mass wine market is propagated by styro
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#157 Post by Gray G » October 26th, 2019, 6:09 am

clearly demand for products one needs or desires from another part of the world drives a part of the economy
whether it's a vaccine, car part, or wine
the solution could be to live near the hospital and not ship the vaccine in huge styro boxes
parts for lunar landers/Mars landers will now be printed on site via 3D printers
look a like wines of any vintage/region/grape will one day be made in labs down the street from you and you and you
my friends call me Gary, so much time, so little wine, Albanista, K Vinters rocks! MCK, Cattle King, love Gri3v3 Family wines Double Eagle baby! flavors please, non-religious freedom :) egalitarian, non-socialist, non-ITB, paid subscriber of online chat, Going Beserk everyday! "life's not black and white but black and grey"- Graham Greene

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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#158 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 26th, 2019, 7:50 am

Jason T wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 2:11 am
Not to hijack this thread but it would be nice if some producers went with lighter/thinner bottles. I’m not talking about shape but weight. I’ve noticed some producers bottle weights are significantly higher than others, adding up to a couple pound difference over a case.
Yes. I wish everyone used bottles similar to those used by Hardy Wallace for D&R.

Worth noting that Hardy’s wines arrive at my home yesterday. In styro. No flecks of styro though. That’s something.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#159 Post by Al Osterheld » October 26th, 2019, 9:37 am

Gray G wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 6:02 am
Al Osterheld wrote:
October 25th, 2019, 6:49 am
Mass market wine isn't shipped in styrofoam or pulp.

-Al
you dismissed my point, as no one covets mass market wine, yet the mass wine market is propagated by styro
I didn't intend to dismiss your point. but I guess I'm still confused. The overwhelming majority of wine is sold in stores rather than direct from winery to consumer, including the premium wine segment. I suspect more premium wine is sold to consumers who carry it out than to remote purchasers (and the trip to them is only one leg of the journey). Your purchases may be mostly propagated by styro, but don't think that generalizes to "the mass wine market".

-Al

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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#160 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » October 26th, 2019, 9:51 am

Jason T wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 2:11 am
Not to hijack this thread but it would be nice if some producers went with lighter/thinner bottles. I’m not talking about shape but weight. I’ve noticed some producers bottle weights are significantly higher than others, adding up to a couple pound difference over a case.
Please hijack away with this.

I use a medium weight fancy bottle because if you look at the top shelf in most wine shops, the bottles are either high end European producers or big bottles(sometimes the wine is both).

As a smaller Willamette Valley producer, I started with a pretty traditional, and lighter, bottle. The glass really doesn’t impact wine quality, but shape and size is meaningful in packaging. I’m hopeful that there will be a wave of consumer preference for lighter bottles(that also fit most racking and wine storage) and the more that we express that lighter is important, and drives our choices, the sooner it will happen. The benefits of lighter glass range from environmental impact all the way to saving the backs of aging winemakers.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#161 Post by Gray G » October 28th, 2019, 5:56 pm

how about shipping water to Los Angeles via the Delta Mendota Canal, how stupid is that...yet no styro involved

LA is a desert, watch it burn :(
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#162 Post by Dan Kravitz » October 28th, 2019, 6:23 pm

In general, deserts don't burn, because there is very little there to burn. Forested hills above deserts are another story. Deserts that are artificially packed tightly with flammable materials are also another story. Whether or not you consider areas made more flammable by human intervention a negative, I prefer not to see them burn, especially if humans are put at risk. Even though I'm not a big fan of humans.

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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#163 Post by Markus S » October 29th, 2019, 5:07 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 9:51 am
Jason T wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 2:11 am
Not to hijack this thread but it would be nice if some producers went with lighter/thinner bottles. I’m not talking about shape but weight. I’ve noticed some producers bottle weights are significantly higher than others, adding up to a couple pound difference over a case.
Please hijack away with this.

I use a medium weight fancy bottle because if you look at the top shelf in most wine shops, the bottles are either high end European producers or big bottles(sometimes the wine is both).

As a smaller Willamette Valley producer, I started with a pretty traditional, and lighter, bottle. The glass really doesn’t impact wine quality, but shape and size is meaningful in packaging. I’m hopeful that there will be a wave of consumer preference for lighter bottles(that also fit most racking and wine storage) and the more that we express that lighter is important, and drives our choices, the sooner it will happen. The benefits of lighter glass range from environmental impact all the way to saving the backs of aging winemakers.
I've always loved Tempier's bottles: they are quite thin-walled but so easy to pour.
There are some producers that make such heavy bottles which I won't give a second look to, figuring if they care so much about appearances on the outside, they must be covering up dross on the inside.
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Re: Wineries please note - I am sick of styro shippers

#164 Post by Jason T » October 29th, 2019, 6:50 am

Domaine Argyros (winery in Santorini) is guilty of that. They make a perfectly quaffable blend of Assyrtiko and some other grape that is like 15 GBP/bottle here in London. I picked one up the other day and did a double take - glass felt more like a magnum of cult Napa cab. Kind of ridiculous.
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