US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19009
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#151 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 11:21 am

I see some retailers already adjusting to this.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Steve Saxon
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6744
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 2:33 pm
Location: Telluride/Gig Harbor

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#152 Post by Steve Saxon » October 3rd, 2019, 11:23 am

NED VALOIS wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:11 pm
Should I have concerns about price changes on '16 Bordeaux future that are paid for but still in France ?
You don't have to worry, your boy said that the EU will pay the tariffs.
Saxon and others have willfully trashed this thread and turned it into nonsense without substance.....Mark Squires

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#153 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 11:36 am

Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:21 am
I see some retailers already adjusting to this.
How so?
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19009
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#154 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 11:39 am

K&L took down some wines from their "New Product" feed. One still there has a note "Release delayed due to tariffs". I expect to see quite a bit more of this, as importers and retailers (at least those that can afford to) decide to delay shipments.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Frank Murray III
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7834
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 5:51 pm
Location: South OC

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#155 Post by Frank Murray III » October 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am

Is it accurate that Champagne is not part of the tariff?
My WOTY candidates for 2019:
2014 Marie Courtin Eloquence BdB Extra Brut
2017 Rivers-Marie PN Platt SC
2017 Kutch Pinot Noir SC PN
2009 Roederer Cristal Brut
2017 Carlisle Zin Mancini Ranch RRV

My best wines of 2018:
2017 Kutch Falstaff Sonoma Coast PN
2012 Marguet La Grande Ruelle Ambonnay

Kindness matters.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#156 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

Sh@n A wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:01 am
John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:36 am
It all depends on the fine print of the consumer's order. The retailer may well have included language giving it the right to tack on the extra charge to existing purchases.
I checked a couple sites and did not see any such terms mentioned. Which would suggest there are no outs. But presumably they can hold onto the wine for years... one site mentions "As most of our wines are sourced in Europe, we make no guarantees with regards to arrival/ship dates. Too many factors come into play for us to guarantee a specific arrival date prior to our physical receipt of the wine in our temperature controlled facility." I am not sure
what a commercially reasonable time frame here is.. weather could be up to one year.. but if tariffs are a "factor", then in theory it could what a commercially reasonably view on a tariff hold is... maybe this allows a retailer to hold something up to another year?

I couldn't find any of the language during a quick search, either, but I know I've seen language to the effect "Buyer will be assessed for any taxes, etc levied after purchase date." You may not see it until you get to the point of finalizing the order. If you've made futures purchases, I'd suggest you check the invoices.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19009
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#157 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

Frank Murray III wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Is it accurate that Champagne is not part of the tariff?
That depends on how this wording is interpreted "Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated)".
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#158 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 11:55 am

Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am
Frank Murray III wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Is it accurate that Champagne is not part of the tariff?
That depends on how this wording is interpreted "Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated)".
I think if you look up the code number next to that in the table, you'll find more a detailed definition. Don't have time to check now.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#159 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 12:00 pm

Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:38 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:39 am
Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am
I'm not asking about the politics of it. I'm asking what the current law says under these tariffs and how the mechanics would work.

If someone imports a big cellar from Europe on Oct 16, with lots of different old bottles, what will customs tell them?
Customs will tell them to pay the tariff on the value of the wines. For old wines that can be assessed through various means. I am not going to go into all the potential methods of valuation because it will turn into 6 pages of questions about why, why, why.
Thanks, David. So the point is, it's market value, however that is determined. Correct?

Can you comment on the question of whether the situation would be any different if the wines are, say, Bordeaux, so they originated from France, but they are not being imported from France? Ie, a shipment from London? (and whether that would change if, at the time of the shipment, the UK is or is not part of the EU)?

This would have a huge impact on any big auction sales planned for this coming season if the wines are expected to be imported. It also will surely kill whatever light demand there was from US bidders potentially bidding at HK sales and then re-importing the wines. Generally the wine doesn't flow that way anyway, but this will be a further deterrent. Between HK unrest and now eliminating US buyers bidding at foreign sales, it's a pretty stormy environment for the auctioneers.
So the applicable HTS code is based on what it is, not where it's shipped from. Shipping from Hong Kong does not change the essential "country of origin" of a French wine.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2634
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#160 Post by Pat Martin » October 3rd, 2019, 12:03 pm

I just spoke to K&L about my pre-arrivals, and they intend to honor the price originally paid by the customer on all pre-arrivals, even those impacted by the tariff. Quality outfit.
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

User avatar
L e o F r o k i c
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3066
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:40 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#161 Post by L e o F r o k i c » October 3rd, 2019, 12:04 pm

Anton D wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:35 am

I am too lazy to check it myself, but it would be interesting to check each of those items and see which states consume them the most.

Perhaps the list was chosen to preferentially tax consumers in certain places?
Good point, in America's "heartland" most of those products are not available.
“The smart, thoughtful people are smart and thoughtful enough to stay out of the conversation. But as a result, the stupid, thoughtless people are doing all the talking.” -Meghan Daum

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19009
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#162 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 12:08 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:55 am
Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am
Frank Murray III wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Is it accurate that Champagne is not part of the tariff?
That depends on how this wording is interpreted "Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated)".
I think if you look up the code number next to that in the table, you'll find more a detailed definition. Don't have time to check now.
Looking around, but no idea how to interpret. Warms my heart to know that some government bureaucrats put in the effort to break things down like this

https://www.findhs.codes/HTSCodes/Of-Heading-2204

I can only imagine how many thousands of pages there are describing every possible product and its derivatives [wow.gif]
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#163 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 12:11 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 12:08 pm
John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:55 am
Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am

That depends on how this wording is interpreted "Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated)".
I think if you look up the code number next to that in the table, you'll find more a detailed definition. Don't have time to check now.
Looking around, but no idea how to interpret. Warms my heart to know that some government bureaucrats put in the effort to break things down like this

https://www.findhs.codes/HTSCodes/Of-Heading-2204

I can only imagine how many thousands of pages there are describing every possible product and its derivatives [wow.gif]
FYI, harmonized system codes are global. Given the huge number of product types in the world there have to be an equally huge number of codes.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Patrick Stella
Posts: 134
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 1:55 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#164 Post by Patrick Stella » October 3rd, 2019, 12:13 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 12:00 pm
Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:38 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:39 am


Customs will tell them to pay the tariff on the value of the wines. For old wines that can be assessed through various means. I am not going to go into all the potential methods of valuation because it will turn into 6 pages of questions about why, why, why.
Thanks, David. So the point is, it's market value, however that is determined. Correct?

Can you comment on the question of whether the situation would be any different if the wines are, say, Bordeaux, so they originated from France, but they are not being imported from France? Ie, a shipment from London? (and whether that would change if, at the time of the shipment, the UK is or is not part of the EU)?

This would have a huge impact on any big auction sales planned for this coming season if the wines are expected to be imported. It also will surely kill whatever light demand there was from US bidders potentially bidding at HK sales and then re-importing the wines. Generally the wine doesn't flow that way anyway, but this will be a further deterrent. Between HK unrest and now eliminating US buyers bidding at foreign sales, it's a pretty stormy environment for the auctioneers.
So the applicable HTS code is based on what it is, not where it's shipped from. Shipping from Hong Kong does not change the essential "country of origin" of a French wine.
Thanks, David.
ITB -- WineCredit LLC

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19009
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#165 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:55 am
Alan Rath wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:48 am
Frank Murray III wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Is it accurate that Champagne is not part of the tariff?
That depends on how this wording is interpreted "Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated)".
I think if you look up the code number next to that in the table, you'll find more a detailed definition. Don't have time to check now.
it would seem there is a separate code for "Sparkling wine", which I assume includes Champagne. My interpretation would be that Champagne is not affected by the new tariffs. But I'm just an ordinary citizen, so probably confused...
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#166 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 12:22 pm

When I looked at the full list of affected codes I thought Champagne was not affected. I have not yet seen anything else that changes my mind.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Neal.Mollen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 34032
Joined: January 30th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#167 Post by Neal.Mollen » October 3rd, 2019, 12:29 pm

EU products winning reprieves include chocolate, Greek, French and Portuguese olive oil, helicopters, frozen fish, lobster, sparkling wine, stemware and tiles.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto- ... SKBN1WH2G7
Champagne and sparkling wines appeared to have avoided the new tariffs, after a list published by the US Trade Representative’s office specified ‘non carbonated’ wines.
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/us-w ... eu-425622/
I don't have to speak; she defends me

A drunkard's dream if I ever did see one

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2123
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#168 Post by Robert Panzer » October 3rd, 2019, 12:37 pm

Hopefully this is like the Trump proposed Mexican tariffs that were set to kick in which, due to such pressure, led to negotiations.
Maybe not.
Apparently the only historical precedent is a Bush Sr era proposed tariff on white wines for something in the low teens (13%?); it was never actually put into effect.
And doubly hopeful, even if it does go into effect, hopefully it doesn't last too long......
As to my planned policy, I plan on eating the loss, or possibly asking for voluntary contributions to share the burden. Should make for an interesting sociological/psychological case study.....
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
etomasi
Posts: 976
Joined: November 22nd, 2013, 11:48 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#169 Post by etomasi » October 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 12:37 pm
Hopefully this is like the Trump proposed Mexican tariffs that were set to kick in which, due to such pressure, led to negotiations.
Maybe not.
Apparently the only historical precedent is a Bush Sr era proposed tariff on white wines for something in the low teens (13%?); it was never actually put into effect.
And doubly hopeful, even if it does go into effect, hopefully it doesn't last too long......
As to my planned policy, I plan on eating the loss, or possibly asking for voluntary contributions to share the burden. Should make for an interesting sociological/psychological case study.....
Well, as someone who has a thousand or so dollars in pre-arrivals with you, I plan on working with you. Just let me know if anyone drops out on pre-arrival burgs like Arnoux-Lachaux, Taupenot merme, Groffier, etc. lol
---
Eric Tomasi
CT: Ericindc

YLee
Posts: 1383
Joined: September 20th, 2018, 8:09 am

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#170 Post by YLee » October 3rd, 2019, 1:20 pm

Hope this doesnt mean my En Primeur purchases will increase in cost. Maybe it is time to backfill more.
-¥ 0 ñ 9

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#171 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 1:21 pm

YLee wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 1:20 pm
Hope this doesnt mean my En Primeur purchases will increase in cost.
It may very well mean that.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
etomasi
Posts: 976
Joined: November 22nd, 2013, 11:48 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#172 Post by etomasi » October 3rd, 2019, 1:43 pm

YLee wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 1:20 pm
Hope this doesnt mean my En Primeur purchases will increase in cost. Maybe it is time to backfill more.
yeah, I don't really want to back out of my purchases, even though its totalwine. We'll see how it shakes out. Totalwine still has their 2018 futures page up. It doesnt look like they raised prices yet.... at least on the wines I bought.
---
Eric Tomasi
CT: Ericindc

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#173 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 2:27 pm

etomasi wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 1:43 pm
yeah, I don't really want to back out of my purchases, even though its totalwine.
Usually there's a substantial penalty if you drop out. They committed to buy the wine, afterall.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

YLee
Posts: 1383
Joined: September 20th, 2018, 8:09 am

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#174 Post by YLee » October 3rd, 2019, 2:29 pm

It would be pretty annoying if I had to pay 25% more on all of my expensive burg and 1st growth bdx En Primeur purchases. Maybe I can request those wines to be stored in France and hold?
-¥ 0 ñ 9

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 940
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#175 Post by Greg K » October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm

Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
Greg Kahn

User avatar
David K o l i n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16076
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 5:29 pm
Location: ChiIl

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#176 Post by David K o l i n » October 3rd, 2019, 3:11 pm

Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
From where? Cuba? Bimini?

YLee
Posts: 1383
Joined: September 20th, 2018, 8:09 am

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#177 Post by YLee » October 3rd, 2019, 3:16 pm

I have wines coming in from France and England in Nov. How and where do I pay the tariffs?
-¥ 0 ñ 9

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#178 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 3:19 pm

YLee wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
It would be pretty annoying if I had to pay 25% more on all of my expensive burg and 1st growth bdx En Primeur purchases. Maybe I can request those wines to be stored in France and hold?
Am doing pay storage charges...it will hit you either way.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#179 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 3:21 pm

YLee wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:16 pm
I have wines coming in from France and England in Nov. How and where do I pay the tariffs?
If you are the importer of record, you will get a direct request for funds from Customs. Pay quickly of pay steep fines. If your retailer is working with an import company, they have to handle payment, and either eat the cost or pass it on to you.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

YLee
Posts: 1383
Joined: September 20th, 2018, 8:09 am

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#180 Post by YLee » October 3rd, 2019, 3:36 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:21 pm
YLee wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:16 pm
I have wines coming in from France and England in Nov. How and where do I pay the tariffs?
If you are the importer of record, you will get a direct request for funds from Customs. Pay quickly of pay steep fines. If your retailer is working with an import company, they have to handle payment, and either eat the cost or pass it on to you.
Thanks
-¥ 0 ñ 9

User avatar
c fu
Moderator
<dfn>Moderator</dfn>
Posts: 30889
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 1:26 pm
Location: Pasadena

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#181 Post by c fu » October 3rd, 2019, 3:41 pm

Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
He already got busted for his paintings!
Ch@rlie F|_|
"Roulot is Roulot"©

Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/clayfu.wine

Greg K
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 940
Joined: December 21st, 2013, 3:16 pm
Location: New York

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#182 Post by Greg K » October 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm

c fu wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:41 pm
Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
He already got busted for his paintings!
I'd worry about those on the water! Am picturing Alfert in a white jacket with a teal shirt holding a bottle of Clos Rougeard.
David K o l i n wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:11 pm
Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
From where? Cuba? Bimini?
Cuba, obviously. [snort.gif]
Greg Kahn

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#183 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 4:14 pm

Cuba would be an OFAC violation.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21598
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#184 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 3rd, 2019, 5:00 pm

Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:57 pm
c fu wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:41 pm
Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
He already got busted for his paintings!
I'd worry about those on the water! Am picturing Alfert in a white jacket with a teal shirt holding a bottle of Clos Rougeard.
David K o l i n wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:11 pm
Greg K wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
From where? Cuba? Bimini?
Cuba, obviously. [snort.gif]
Sheez, this poor country squire just got home from work, relegated to microwave dinner while wife at a Club social, me drinking some mid-priced Chinon, and you guys are all over my phat arse.

I need to be clear here. Alfert is sleek Italian Yacht, not some cheesy cigarette boat.

Alfert does not wear white jackets. He ain’t Crockett. White Boss jeans, sure. Sans socks. But no white jacket.

Now Cuba to Miami, that’s good living right there.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#185 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 5:08 pm

It may be good living, but it’s still an OFAC violation.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Dan Kravitz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1915
Joined: May 10th, 2010, 3:47 pm
Location: Harpswell, Maine

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#186 Post by Dan Kravitz » October 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm

Stuff about tariffs:

I spent a fair amount of time today on the phone with our customs broker and a brief call with an attorney.

The tariffs max out at $7.5 billion. They are not just on wine. Scotch, screwdrivers (the metal kind), suits from Savile Row and a whole lot more are included. Although the tariffs are only 10% on much of the machine tooling coming from Germany, everything else is 25%. In theory, once the U.S. collects $7.5 billion (on just over $30 billion worth of products), the tariffs go away.
Assuming there is no negotiated settlement before they kick in (consensus is that this is unlikely), I heard estimates of from 1 – 3 months before the dollar figure is reached.

Without discussing politics, the subsidy question is complicated (Newsflash! Everything is complicated!). Boeing derives a large percentage of its income from military work for the U.S. Europe complains that inflated Defense Department contracts with Boeing amount to a hidden subsidy. Supposedly and hopefully neutral bureaucrats trained in economics and statistics adjudicate these claims. Don’t change the channel <g>! This could take a while.

To David K: Trying to calculate the new price of a $50 bottle is also complicated. How much gets passed through to the consumer vs how much is eaten by the producer, importer, distributor and retailer in efforts to stay competitive with wines from non-tariff places? Or are some wines immune to this, as there are no comparable wines elsewhere? Don’t jump on me with “this is comparable, just as good”, because we’re talking both style and worldwide image, but I would imagine that 1st Growth Bordeaux, Grand Cru Burgundy, Champagne and German Rieslings have some immunity. Basic red Bordeaux? Savaged.
Anyway, I guess that a $50 bottle will become $55 (the chain eats a lot of the tariff) to ~$62.

To David Bueker, another news flash from the trade: The previous definition of Table Wine as 7 – 14% alcohol was changed last year to a more reasonable 7 – 16%. Until this, nobody making 14+ - 16% wine bothered changing their labels from 14%, now it’s STOP THE PRESSES! and print the reality. FWIW, the wine from my own vineyard has always come in at between 14.4% and 15.5% and has always been labeled 15% (completely legal, and I paid the extra tax, passing it on of course to the trade and eventually the end consumer).

To Kevin Gibbs: Yes, the tariff is calculated on ex-cellar invoice cost, but unless people in the trade chain eat part of the tariff, they will use the same multipliers and the price of $62.50 will be correct, give or take.

To Nola Palomar – I believe Ohio’s minimum is 33% Gross Profit, not 33% markup, which affects the rest of your calculations.

As to ’16 Bordeaux futures, they will probably not be affected as negotiations and/or the $7.5B cap will kick in before you ship. Please note ‘probably’, not ‘definitely’.

To Tom Reddick: The tariff will apparently apply to any wine that has not cleared customs before 10/18.

Champagne is not included. The exact tariff line has already been posted in this thread.

To Patrick Stella – The collector in Europe has to provide Zachy’s with an invoice. Add 25% to the price on that invoice and Bob’s your uncle.

To Robert Panzer – this has come up multiple times despite the posting of the actual tariff line, which I post again here, with the relevant words in boldface:
2204.21.50Wine other than Tokay (not carbonated), not over 14% alcohol, in containers not over 2 liters

To John Morris – Italy is not a partner in the Airbus consortium, which is why they are not included.

To Leo Frokic – These wines are available in abundance in “America’s Heartland”. Without looking up numbers, last year I probably sold 30,000 cases in the Midwest, Southwest and Mountain states.

To David Kolin, you wrote: “Greg K wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:33 pm
Can't wait to see who will be the first person busted for smuggling high end wine into Miami on their cigarette boat. Alfert?
From where? Cuba? Bimini?
The wines will be coming in from Venezuela (gallows humor, anybody?).

On a more serious note, my business will be impacted fairly severely. How severely I will find out in the next few days.

Dan Kravitz
swillmaster - ITB

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33554
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#187 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 5:40 pm

To Dan Kravitz...I don’t care. The HTS code definition has not changed.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2123
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#188 Post by Robert Panzer » October 3rd, 2019, 5:51 pm

"In theory, once the U.S. collects $7.5 billion (on just over $30 billion worth of products), the tariffs go away.
Assuming there is no negotiated settlement before they kick in (consensus is that this is unlikely), I heard estimates of from 1 – 3 months before the dollar figure is reached."
Is there such a limitation on the tariffs, that it is just to pay a certain fine/debt of sorts? What would prevent Drumpf from leaving the tariffs in place? 1-3 months ain't so bad.....indefinitely is bad.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
GregT
Posts: 8052
Joined: April 15th, 2009, 3:12 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#189 Post by GregT » October 3rd, 2019, 6:13 pm

Boeing derives a large percentage of its income from military work for the U.S. Europe complains that inflated Defense Department contracts with Boeing amount to a hidden subsidy. Supposedly and hopefully neutral bureaucrats trained in economics and statistics adjudicate these claims.
Which can be litigated for 20 years. What are "inflated" contracts? Training in economics has no bearing on whether or not you understand a particular business. And if you're part of a particular school of economics, your politics dictate your studies and your outcomes.

What's interesting is that since the 1962 Trade Expansion Act, which gave Kennedy some authority over tariffs, and the 1974 Trade Act, which gave the President the right to negotiate trade deals and then send them to Congress for a yay or nay vote, the U.S. Constitution grants Congress the power “to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states”. After Smoot Hawley, Congress kind of backed away. Today the President, whether Dem or Republican, takes the lead.

Ultimately it all comes home on the consumer. As imports become more expensive, domestic producers can raise their prices. This is exactly what happened with the auto industry. The net result is that consumers become relatively poorer, since they end up paying more for both imported and domestic items. That's especially true today, when so much is only produced overseas.

So it's like injecting a big shot of inflation into the economy. If I were Trump, I'd start dropping some of these really fast. You don't want to go into an election with the economy tanking.
G . T a t a r

[i]"the incorrect overuse of apostrophes is staggering these days. I wonder if half the adults these days have any idea what they are for." Chris Seiber, 5/14/19[/i]

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21598
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#190 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 3rd, 2019, 6:37 pm

GregT wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:13 pm
Boeing derives a large percentage of its income from military work for the U.S. Europe complains that inflated Defense Department contracts with Boeing amount to a hidden subsidy. Supposedly and hopefully neutral bureaucrats trained in economics and statistics adjudicate these claims.
Which can be litigated for 20 years. What are "inflated" contracts? Training in economics has no bearing on whether or not you understand a particular business. And if you're part of a particular school of economics, your politics dictate your studies and your outcomes.
Dead on right, Greg. The ability to prove this is like nil.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

Tom G l a s g o w
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4774
Joined: February 19th, 2010, 2:01 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#191 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » October 3rd, 2019, 6:54 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:37 pm
GregT wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:13 pm
Boeing derives a large percentage of its income from military work for the U.S. Europe complains that inflated Defense Department contracts with Boeing amount to a hidden subsidy. Supposedly and hopefully neutral bureaucrats trained in economics and statistics adjudicate these claims.
Which can be litigated for 20 years. What are "inflated" contracts? Training in economics has no bearing on whether or not you understand a particular business. And if you're part of a particular school of economics, your politics dictate your studies and your outcomes.
Dead on right, Greg. The ability to prove this is like nil.
Wait and see.

User avatar
William Gladstone
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 500
Joined: June 12th, 2013, 2:34 am
Location: new york, honolulu, hong kong

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#192 Post by William Gladstone » October 3rd, 2019, 7:17 pm

I'm just starting to think about the details of this.
We have several shipments en-route now and I would be lucky if anyone of these arrive prior to the date of the start of the tariff.
If I can squeeze in under the wire...
Other wise my immediate thought is to postpone any shipments that have not departed and the 4 or 5 already on the seas to have those held in a DUTY FREE ZONE in the states until this ends.
We cannot tack on 25% to our cost and successfully sell. Nor take the risk that the tariff ends and others will bring in the same wines without the tariff at a later date.
Trump is a stable genius deal maker.

User avatar
Jeremy C
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1018
Joined: November 11th, 2013, 11:16 am
Location: El Paso

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#193 Post by Jeremy C » October 3rd, 2019, 7:33 pm

While this may very well hit many of us, I'm very sorry for those of you whose livelihoods will be impacted.
Cuth.bert.son

User avatar
Mattstolz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1349
Joined: June 26th, 2017, 7:46 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#194 Post by Mattstolz » October 3rd, 2019, 7:40 pm

two things I don't understand about this whole situation:
1) the WTO also announced that they basically thought Boeing was also getting subsidies right? why not just announce them both getting subsidies, then say because of that no one can use tariffs?

2) Airbus is getting help. the US government gets to collect the money. why? are they the ones who were hurt by this? why don't I get to collect 7.5 billion? why can't Wine Berserkers institute and collect the tariffs?

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#195 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 8:19 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
Stuff about tariffs:

I spent a fair amount of time today on the phone with our customs broker and a brief call with an attorney. . . . .
Thanks for a very informative post.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16866
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#196 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 8:22 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:40 pm
two things I don't understand about this whole situation:
1) the WTO also announced that they basically thought Boeing was also getting subsidies right? why not just announce them both getting subsidies, then say because of that no one can use tariffs?
I guess we'd have to know something about WTO adjudication procedures, which I'm pretty confident no one here does. If I had to guess, the US filed its case first and the EU allegations were submitted later.
Mattstolz wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:40 pm
2) Airbus is getting help. the US government gets to collect the money. why? are they the ones who were hurt by this? why don't I get to collect 7.5 billion? why can't Wine Berserkers institute and collect the tariffs?
Because we'd spend it all on European wine, which would just exacerbate the trade imbalance. neener
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Rob Weaver
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 382
Joined: January 9th, 2012, 11:04 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#197 Post by Rob Weaver » October 3rd, 2019, 11:54 pm

From Flickinger:

You are receiving this email because you have prearrival wines purchased from Flickinger Wines.

As you have probably read, the US yesterday proposed a set of tariffs in response to the World Trade Organization’s (WTO) ruling that the European Union had damaged the US through illegal subsidies of Airbus aircraft manufacturing.

The precise details of exactly how this is supposed to work are still pending; we have consulted with our overseas suppliers, our logistics company, and our customs broker and the summary of those conversations is that there are many details still to be determined.

Moreover, the potential for a diplomatic resolution, or a serious escalation in the amount of the tariffs, or an all-out trade war are very real. For the time being, we have suspended offering all pre-arrival wines until we have greater certainty over the likelihood of the tariffs taking effect on October 18th. Our best understanding is that as currently defined, the tariffs will not apply to Italian wines, Sparkling wines (including Champagne), large format wines (over 2 liter bottles), and wines with alcohol over 14% - but that the amount and scope of the tariffs can change with little or no notice.

You currently have one or more pre-arrival order pending with us, which may or may not be subject to the proposed tariffs if/when they become effective. For now, we are counseling patience until the dust settles and more facts are known. Your wine will continue to be stored (if it has been released) at our suppliers’ cellars in Europe at no charge.

When the dust does settle, we will be contacting you individually to review the particulars of your pre-arrival purchase(s) and discuss available options at that time.

Thank you for your business and your understanding. Please know we are intensely focused on this issue, and will update you with further information as it becomes available.

User avatar
Neal.Mollen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 34032
Joined: January 30th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#198 Post by Neal.Mollen » October 4th, 2019, 4:06 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:00 pm
I need to be clear here. Alfert is sleek Italian Yacht, not some cheesy cigarette boat.
Image
I don't have to speak; she defends me

A drunkard's dream if I ever did see one

User avatar
Neal.Mollen
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 34032
Joined: January 30th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#199 Post by Neal.Mollen » October 4th, 2019, 4:18 am

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:19 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
Stuff about tariffs:

I spent a fair amount of time today on the phone with our customs broker and a brief call with an attorney. . . . .
Thanks for a very informative post.
Agreed. Very interesting, and Dan, my condolences on time spent on the phone with your attorney, even if it was a short call.

GregT: the slow but inexorable ebb of power from the legislative branch to the executive has been more or less unabated since the middle of the last century. We have lost many, many thousands of young people in undeclared wars, and you might recall a recent declaration of a "national emergency" that "allowed" the executive to spend unappropriated funds, and refuse to spend appropriated funds (check your personal copy of the Constitution for the clause that permits that and let me know what you find). Arguments can be made both ways about the wisdom of this executive aggrandizement but finding a constitutional footing for it is somewhat more difficult. But it is often easier for elected officials to cede power ad let someone else take the heat than to make a real decision

Anyway . . . .
I don't have to speak; she defends me

A drunkard's dream if I ever did see one

User avatar
Eric Ifune
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3547
Joined: June 19th, 2009, 7:43 pm

Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#200 Post by Eric Ifune » October 4th, 2019, 4:57 am

Since I currently only buy Portuguese wines, I have no problem. Perhaps you all should too. As good as anything in France for a third the price even without tariffs. :)

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”