TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

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TomHill
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TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#1 Post by TomHill » September 17th, 2019, 12:28 pm

I attended the recent Idlewild SundaySchool focusing on wines of Italy's Sudtirol:
1. Pojer e Sandri MullerThurgau 2017: Light gold color; quite fragrant/perfumed bit earthy/M-T/floral lightly spicy quite attractive nose; quite tart/tangy slightly sour/earthy bit metallic fairly floral/gardenias slightly coarse flavor; very long/lingering rather floral finish; shows a bit of the M-T coarseness but a rather high-toned expression of M-T.
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2. Weingut Koferhof Sylvaner Valle Isarco 2016: Light gold color; rather fragrant/grapey/Sylvaner/carnations slightly spicy lovely nose; bit soft fairly rich bit simple grapey/Sylvaner lightly floral/carnations flavor; long floral/Sylvaner finish; a rather pleasant Sylvaner if a bit on the simple side.
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3. Weingut Koferhof Kerner Valle Isarco 2017: Light gold color; quite fragrant floral/fresh peach/spicy slight earthy quite attractive nose; fairly tart bit stony/mineral rather floral slight metallic/tangy totally dry bit rich/lush flavor; very long fairly floral bit stony/mineral finish; a bit more interesting & complex & more high-toned than the first two; quite an attractive expression of Kerner.
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4. Alois Lageder PinotGrigio "Porer" 2017: Light gold color; slight herbal/phenolic/hay mow/new mown grass somewhat complex nose; quite tart/tangy light phenolic bit metallic bit herbal/haymow some floral/PG flavor; very long/lingering quite tart lightly phenolic finish; not your typical bland PG; clearly has some skin-contact but the phenolic character is pretty low-key and makes for a more complex wine.
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5. ElenaWalch GWT Tramine 2017: Light gold color; powerful lychee/GWT/hair oil/very spicy slight smokey/smoked Hebrew hotdogs beautiful complex nose; fairly tart rich/powerful/lychee/GWT/cheap hair oil/very spicy slight earthy totally dry flavor; very long/lingering powerful GWT/lychee/very spicy finish; a beautiful/powerful expression of GWT; this is what great Alsatian GWT was like afore Z-H; outstanding GWT.
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6. Kellerei/Cantina Kurtatsch Schiava Grigia 2017: Light garnet color; very bright cherry/maraschino cherry/floral/roses slight earthy/loamy lovely aromatic nose; fairly tart bright/perfumed/cherry/floral/Schiava bit earthy/loamy flavor w/ light gentle tannins; very long/lingering light bright/cherry/floral/roses/high-toned bit earthy/loamy finish w/ light gentle tannins; a very pretty drinkable Vin de Soif w/ lots of cherry perfume; a great introduction to Schiava.
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7. Weingut/Tenuta Ebner Blauburgunder 2016: Light color; rather earthy/dusty/loamy bit black cherry/spicy/forest floor interesting nose; fairly tart strong earthy/loamy/dusty alpine/cherry/black cherry slightly rustic flavor w/ light ripe tannins; very long rather earthy/dusty/loamy rather black cherry/forest floor finish w/ light tannins; a pretty classic expression of Sudtirol PinotNoir w/ not much high-toned Pinot character.
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8. Kellerei/Cantina Terlan Lagrein "Gries" 2015: Very dark color; strong plummy/Mourv-like/black cherry/bit licorice some earthy/loamy/dusty/forest floor bit herbal/gamey/animal-like quite interesting bit rustic nose; fairly tart/tangy strong earthy/loamy/dusty/forest floor rather grapey/plummy/Mourv-likw fairly rich bit rustic flavor w/ modest chewey tannins; very long rather earthy/dusty/loamy some plummy/black cherry/Mourv-like finish w/ some ripe tannins; pretty classic expression of Lagrein w/ lots of Mourv-like/plummy character.
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9. Foradori Teroldego "Sgarzon" IGT: Vigneti delle Dolomite 2018: Dark color; beautiful Teroldego/plummy/black cherry/slight licorice light earthy/dusty very perfumed some complex nose; fairly tart rich/structured strong black cherry/plummy/Teroldego slight earthy complex beautiful flavor w/ ample ripe/chewey tannins; very long/lingering Teroldego/black cherry/black cherry cola/plummy/bit licorice very structured finish; clearly needs some age; Elisabetta at her best.
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A wee BloodyPulpit:
1. The first Sunday of each month, they hold a "Sunday School" tasting in the Idlewild tasting room. Each one focuses on wine from a particular region of Italy. Since they were doing Sudtirol/AltoAdige, one of my favorite regions, I made the trip out to Calif for just this event. The SS tastings are organized by Thomas DeBiase, son of Tom DeBiase, a long-time/active poster on the WB wine board. Thomas is a wealth of information when it comes to Italian wines and makes an extraordinary effort to ferret out interesting wines for the tastings. These tastings are well worth attending, even if you are not a religious type. Oftentimes, other local winemakers are in attendance to learn from Thomas.
Of the whites, they all showed that fragrant/floral/bright character that characterizes whites from the Sudtirol. The first three were very pleasant/drinkable white but not that distinctive. The Lageder, because of its skin-contact, was the most interesting/complex of the bunch. But the Walch GWT was the highlight of the five. Anymore, Sudtirol is my go-to region for great GWT. This is where they now make the World's best, consistently, GWT. Made in the old-timey style like they used to do in Alsace before the Z-H style of soft/off-dry/blowsey style took over. They show a bit more rustic character and do better w/ a big plate of weenies & kraut.
The Schiava was particularly good. This is a variety also called Vernatsch and Trollinger in the Baden region of Germany. There are actually three bio-types of Schiava: SchiavaGrigia/SchiavaGentile/ and SchiavaGrossa. The wines are usually just labeled Schiava and this is the first time I've seen one labeled by the biotype name.
The other two reds were pretty typical Sudtirol reds w/ lots of that earthy/loamy character those wines display. Though tart, they have a richness & broadness on the palate that makes Sudtirol reds so good, if a bit on the rustic. They remind me a lot of the Burgenland reds. The Lagrein is a grape native to the Sudtirol/Trentino region. The Gries indicates the village nearby to Bolzano where the best Lagreins are thought to be grown.
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2. Foradori Teroldego: That area of Italy is often refered to as Trentino/AltoAdige. Its inclusion didn't quite fit the theme but was a preview to a future tasting of wines from Trentino.
ElisabettaForadori is, of course, the master of Teroldego. This Sgarzon is one of her vnyd-designates Teroldegos. She also makes a rare Cylindrica version of Sgarzon that has a different aging regime. According to Thomas, this vnyd was planted from Teroldego seeds, rather than the customary propagation from cuttings. That seems sorta strange. I've not been able to corroborate that bit of information, though.
Elisabetta ferments her wine in clay amphorae (called tinajas) from Spain made by Juan Padilla, regarded as the master of Tinija production: JuanPadilla.
Tom

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#2 Post by Ken Zinns » September 17th, 2019, 12:52 pm

TomHill wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 12:28 pm
The Schiava was particularly good. This is a variety also called Vernatsch and Trollinger in the Baden region of Germany. There are actually three bio-types of Schiava: SchiavaGrigia/SchiavaGentile/ and SchiavaGrossa. The wines are usually just labeled Schiava and this is the first time I've seen one labeled by the biotype name.
Thanks for posting your notes, Tom - haven't read through carefully yet but I'll do that later today. This is also one of my favorite regions for Italian wines.

Regarding Schiava labeling...I went through the TTB grape variety approval process for US wine labels for Schiava early last year, looking to get approval for the varietal name of "Schiava". As it turned out, TTB would not approve that name, since there are several different varieties that all include Schiava in their names - a fourth one you didn't mention is Schiava Nera (also called Schiava Lombarda). According to the reference books "Wine Grapes" and "Native Wine Grapes of Italy", all four of these varieties are unrelated. And since the specific variety in question for the label approval petition I submitted was Schiava Grossa - that's how it's named in the Foundation Plant Services list of available grape varieties - TTB would only approve the name of Schiava Grossa rather than just Schiava, despite my showing that nearly all Italian Schiava wines are simply labeled as "Schiava". So when you see a California Schiava (which will probably be the case before too long), that's why it will be most likely be labeled as Schiava Grossa.
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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#3 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 18th, 2019, 12:34 am

Great catching up with you Tom, you need to come out to Sonoma County more often! Nice set of notes and agree the set of wines presented was a very good cross section of the area.

I need to follow up with my own notes, observations and a few photos but am currently on vacation in Vienna. Another week or so.
Hope to see you again soon.

Tom

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#4 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » September 18th, 2019, 1:59 am

Ken Zinns wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 12:52 pm
TomHill wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 12:28 pm
The Schiava was particularly good. This is a variety also called Vernatsch and Trollinger in the Baden region of Germany. There are actually three bio-types of Schiava: SchiavaGrigia/SchiavaGentile/ and SchiavaGrossa. The wines are usually just labeled Schiava and this is the first time I've seen one labeled by the biotype name.
Thanks for posting your notes, Tom - haven't read through carefully yet but I'll do that later today. This is also one of my favorite regions for Italian wines.

Regarding Schiava labeling...I went through the TTB grape variety approval process for US wine labels for Schiava early last year, looking to get approval for the varietal name of "Schiava". As it turned out, TTB would not approve that name, since there are several different varieties that all include Schiava in their names - a fourth one you didn't mention is Schiava Nera (also called Schiava Lombarda). According to the reference books "Wine Grapes" and "Native Wine Grapes of Italy", all four of these varieties are unrelated. And since the specific variety in question for the label approval petition I submitted was Schiava Grossa - that's how it's named in the Foundation Plant Services list of available grape varieties - TTB would only approve the name of Schiava Grossa rather than just Schiava, despite my showing that nearly all Italian Schiava wines are simply labeled as "Schiava". So when you see a California Schiava (which will probably be the case before too long), that's why it will be most likely be labeled as Schiava Grossa.
Ken, any idea if Trollinger is one particular Schiava varietal, or is it also a mix of the various Schiave?
Cheers,
Paul

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#5 Post by Ken Zinns » September 18th, 2019, 6:25 am

P@u1_M3nk3s wrote:
September 18th, 2019, 1:59 am
Ken Zinns wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 12:52 pm
TomHill wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 12:28 pm
The Schiava was particularly good. This is a variety also called Vernatsch and Trollinger in the Baden region of Germany. There are actually three bio-types of Schiava: SchiavaGrigia/SchiavaGentile/ and SchiavaGrossa. The wines are usually just labeled Schiava and this is the first time I've seen one labeled by the biotype name.
Thanks for posting your notes, Tom - haven't read through carefully yet but I'll do that later today. This is also one of my favorite regions for Italian wines.

Regarding Schiava labeling...I went through the TTB grape variety approval process for US wine labels for Schiava early last year, looking to get approval for the varietal name of "Schiava". As it turned out, TTB would not approve that name, since there are several different varieties that all include Schiava in their names - a fourth one you didn't mention is Schiava Nera (also called Schiava Lombarda). According to the reference books "Wine Grapes" and "Native Wine Grapes of Italy", all four of these varieties are unrelated. And since the specific variety in question for the label approval petition I submitted was Schiava Grossa - that's how it's named in the Foundation Plant Services list of available grape varieties - TTB would only approve the name of Schiava Grossa rather than just Schiava, despite my showing that nearly all Italian Schiava wines are simply labeled as "Schiava". So when you see a California Schiava (which will probably be the case before too long), that's why it will be most likely be labeled as Schiava Grossa.
Ken, any idea if Trollinger is one particular Schiava varietal, or is it also a mix of the various Schiave?
It's my understanding that Trollinger is Schiava Grossa.
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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#6 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » September 18th, 2019, 6:55 pm

Thanks Ken. I just looked at German Wikipedia and it says that too. I can’t believe the number of synonyms for Trollinger/Schiava Grossa!
Cheers,
Paul

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#7 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 27th, 2019, 4:14 pm

Back from a wonderful 2+ weeks in Europe and just getting my notes together from the tasting. As usual there was a very good assortment of wines representing the Sudtirol. If one didn't know, you would never guess these wines were from Italy. An added bonus was having Tom Hill attending as he brings his experience, knowledge and friendship as we taste each of the wines.

Pojer e Sandri MullerThurgau 2017: Nose of salty sea spray, warm stones, floral with light stone fruit aromas. Flavors similar to the nose, saline, almost salty, unripe peach, lemon juice, floral note. Very lively, great acidity. You can taste a lot of Muller Thurgau frogs before getting a prince. We have a prince here, good start!

Weingut Koferhof Sylvaner Valle Isarco 2016: White flowers, some herbal and fruity notes on the nose. In the mouth very pure strong salinity, unripe nectarine, some pineapple, herbs and white flowers. Good texture, almost viscous but with good acidity. Not too complex but drinking well.

Weingut Koferhof Kerner Valle Isarco 2017: Has that Peach candy note that I find in most Kerner. Also tropical with acacia flower notes. Flavors of peach candy, herbs, fennel, shows good minerality and acidity. If you like that peach candy - peach floral note (I do) you will like this wine.

Alois Lageder Pinot Grigio "Porer" 2017: Is there any grape with a worse reputation than Pinot Grigio. Well, you need to try some from the right Italian producers. Nose is fruity, floral, herbal - grassy and notes of ripe pear. flavors of ripe apple and pear, cherry pit, floral, spicy and with good acidity. Also a nice texture to this wine. Sees some skin contact. One of my favorites of the evening.

ElenaWalch GWT Tramine 2017: Strong rosy, lychee, peach, very spicy nose, lovely. In the mouth, white peach, apricot, flowers, very spicy, huge mouthfeel, texture, almost viscous but with bracing acidity. This is one heck of a mouthful of wine. Excellent, my overall favorite.

Kellerei/Cantina Kurtatsch Schiava Grigia 2017: Slightly reduced at first whiff which eventually dissipated, dark fruit aroma with spice. Fresh cherry, strawberry, menthol, medicinal (in a good way), sl tarry and smoky. Quite complex and drinking well right now.

Weingut/Tenuta Ebner Blauburgunder 2016: Spicy Bing cherry, herbs, forest floor, piney nose. Flavors of fresh cherry, blueberry, green herbs, forest floor and clove. This is not your Mama's Pinot Noir, very good example of Pinot Noir from this area.

Kellerei/Cantina Terlan Lagrein "Gries" 2015: Strong aroma of black cherry, blackberry, spearmint and spice. Flavors follow the nose, intense black cherry, blackberry, ripe plum, gamy, savory and a wintergreen - root beer note. Strong acidity and ripe tannins. Very nice.

In honor of Tom Hill attending a preview wine was served from the Trentino area (one of Tom's favorite regions) and it was a winner.

Foradori Teroldego "Sgarzon" IGT: Vigneti delle Dolomite 2018: Red currant, red licorice, earthy, floral nose. Progression of flavors in this wine is both unique and fascinating. Starts of with strong fruit forward notes of dark fruit, black cherry, plum and earthy notes then finishes with beautiful cranberry, pomegranate, good acidity and ripe tannins. A chameleon wine and one of the best of the evening.

Another informative and diverse Tasting. The Idlewild Sunday School tastings now have quite a loyal following. If you want to attend try to get a reservation early before they fill up. October's tasting is up on their website. Here are a couple photos from the tasting.

Map showing the Sudtirol (yellow area, upper right)
IMG_20190909_122721.jpg
The line up
IMG_20190908_190637.jpg
Guest of honor and good friend Tom Hill
IMG_20190908_183542.jpg
Last edited by Tom DeBiase on September 28th, 2019, 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nice..

#8 Post by TomHill » September 27th, 2019, 5:36 pm

Nice notes, Tom. Agree on the GWT being the highlight of the night.
But I was not the guest of honor, though. I had to pay like everyone else!!
Glad you made it back. Trust Vienna was good?
Tom

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#9 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 27th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Hey Tom, not guest of honor but an honorable guest :). BTW, same with me.
The GWT was excellent and I had several others right behind it. Example, amazing how good Pinot Grigio can be from the right place and in the right hands.
Vienna was great as was Budapest and Copenhagen. Now I need a vacation from vacation.
Hope to see you again soon

Tom

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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#10 Post by LarryA » September 28th, 2019, 1:49 pm

I have always loved the Lageder Porer pinot grigio but didn't know there was any skin-contact element. At their web site they say that part of the wine is fermented normally, part is fermented for less than a day on the skins, and part fermented on the skins for a longer period of time. It's possible those portions are varied according to the vintage.

In any case, it makes for a really interesting pinot grigio.
Larry Archibald
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Re: TN: Idlewild SundaySchool: Sudtirol...(short/boring)

#11 Post by Tom DeBiase » September 29th, 2019, 6:56 am

LarryA wrote:
September 28th, 2019, 1:49 pm
I have always loved the Lageder Porer pinot grigio but didn't know there was any skin-contact element. At their web site they say that part of the wine is fermented normally, part is fermented for less than a day on the skins, and part fermented on the skins for a longer period of time. It's possible those portions are varied according to the vintage.

In any case, it makes for a really interesting pinot grigio.
Agree Larry, the skin contact adds to the complexity and structure without turning the wine into a science project. As you say, it's barely noticeable.

Not quite in the league of Lageder Porer is Venica Jesera Pinot Grigio, also a tasty inexpensive Pinot Grigio that sees some skin contact.

Tom

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