Barolo Sediment

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John Morris
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#51 Post by John Morris » September 16th, 2019, 7:50 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 10:01 pm
Doesn't matter how fine the sediment is, if gravity is capable of settling it on the bottom of the bottle, it's also capable of keeping it on the underside of the bottle when the bottle is in a sideways position being poured. By contrast, if you're worried about disturbing fine sediment, what do you think happens when a bottle with a heap of sediment around the punt is turned sideways for pouring? Sediment avalanche!
Happily, old Barolo and old Burgundy was only rarely put in bottles with deep punts!
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#52 Post by Jeff_M. » September 16th, 2019, 8:20 am

I've got a 49 year old Barolo waiting to be popped. I'll probably open it up next spring for my birthday when the bottle hits 50 years. I'll have to keep all this in mind.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#53 Post by Eric Egan » September 27th, 2019, 12:44 pm

John Morris wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 9:13 am
Eric Egan wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 9:07 am
Sounds like a sensible idea. I actually store most of my old Barolo (as well as old Rioja) - at least what I think I might drink within the next five years or so - upright so I can open them on shorter notice. I've had bottles that have taken over 3 months to settle after shipping... just no point in taking any chances. Filtering the wine will remove some of the larger sediment but it will still taste pretty nasty.
In my experience, old Rioja usually has little or no sediment, presumably because of the long aging in tanks. (Perhaps it's also due in part to tempranillo.) You can usually transport those and open them without fear of sediment.
It depends what you mean by old I suppose. I've had a fair few problems with very fine sediment in bottles from the '20s-'50s, particularly from LdH and CVNE. A bunch of Tondonia '34 that I bought a few years ago took three months to settle - they looked cloudy for so long that I thought they must be cooked but when they eventually cleared they were amazing!
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#54 Post by Doug Schulman » September 27th, 2019, 2:56 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 5:25 pm
You don't have to keep a bottle upright to decant off its sediment. As soon as you start pouring the bottle, you've just put the thing on its side anyway, so what was the point of standing it up for a month? Just take the bottle from the cellar, decant slowly and carefully, and you'll get it off the sediment just as well as if it had been upright. If you want to be extra-precious about it, you can transfer it directly from side storage to a bottle cradle and uncork it there so it stays in a similar resting position the entire time, but it's not really necessary.
I agree with some of this, but I do think it's important with very fine sediment (as in Nebbiolo) to keep the bottle somewhat on its side while carrying and opening, which is not all that easy without a basket/cradle. Standing up to open and then returning to its side can stir up sediment. I have a friend who swears by settling in bottles at about 45 degrees for at least several weeks, ideally months. He seems to get the best results with this method (totally clear wine with very little left behind). Sediment all around the bottom of the bottle, rather than only in one corner, does not seem optimal. I actually think keeping the bottle on its side is better than totally standing up if done properly.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#55 Post by Keith Levenberg » September 29th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Doug Schulman wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 2:56 pm
Keith Levenberg wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 5:25 pm
You don't have to keep a bottle upright to decant off its sediment. As soon as you start pouring the bottle, you've just put the thing on its side anyway, so what was the point of standing it up for a month? Just take the bottle from the cellar, decant slowly and carefully, and you'll get it off the sediment just as well as if it had been upright. If you want to be extra-precious about it, you can transfer it directly from side storage to a bottle cradle and uncork it there so it stays in a similar resting position the entire time, but it's not really necessary.
I agree with some of this, but I do think it's important with very fine sediment (as in Nebbiolo) to keep the bottle somewhat on its side while carrying and opening, which is not all that easy without a basket/cradle. Standing up to open and then returning to its side can stir up sediment. I have a friend who swears by settling in bottles at about 45 degrees for at least several weeks, ideally months. He seems to get the best results with this method (totally clear wine with very little left behind). Sediment all around the bottom of the bottle, rather than only in one corner, does not seem optimal. I actually think keeping the bottle on its side is better than totally standing up if done properly.
Exactly. I keep some old bottles on a top rack where they probably rest at about a 15 degree angle. All the sediment gathers in the backside of the bottle up to about 3 or 4 inches from the bottom. There is almost no wine sacrificed to decanting - it's clear ruby wine from the first drop to the last and nothing left in the bottle except the sludge.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#56 Post by Jim Erwin » September 30th, 2019, 4:12 pm

I just ordered 6 of these ($5.99 ea) for my "on deck" Nebs. I think they will be a better alternative to standing upright in the cellar for a couple of weeks.


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Re: Barolo Sediment

#57 Post by Laurent Gibet » October 9th, 2019, 4:55 am

John Morris wrote:
September 15th, 2019, 12:01 pm
Except in this case, Settimo has been very traditional.
Still hoping an advice on these "seeming already too old" Settimo Rocche 2009 and Settimo Rocche Riserva 2009.
See here :viewtopic.php?f=1&t=159656
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#58 Post by John Morris » October 9th, 2019, 7:01 am

I just responded over there.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#59 Post by John Morris » October 11th, 2019, 8:28 am

Jim Erwin wrote:
September 30th, 2019, 4:12 pm
I just ordered 6 of these ($5.99 ea) for my "on deck" Nebs. I think they will be a better alternative to standing upright in the cellar for a couple of weeks.

Thanks. Just ordered a couple.

But how did you get them for $5.99?
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#60 Post by Jim Erwin » October 11th, 2019, 10:01 am

John Morris wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 8:28 am
Jim Erwin wrote:
September 30th, 2019, 4:12 pm
I just ordered 6 of these ($5.99 ea) for my "on deck" Nebs. I think they will be a better alternative to standing upright in the cellar for a couple of weeks.

Thanks. Just ordered a couple.

But how did you get them for $5.99?
There was a 3 week delivery time when I ordered them @ $5.99. They raised the price when they became immediately available. I'm still waiting for delivery.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#61 Post by Sh@n A » October 11th, 2019, 10:54 am

AAgrawal wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 7:51 am
The short answer is no. I will usually stand up for > 1 month and decant and still lose 2 oz at the bottom. When I filter those 2 oz through a coffee filter, the sediment disappears but the wine has a notable bitter component from the tannins that remains compared to the rest of the bottle.
In this example, the remaining sludge has been filtered out but the last 2 oz is not as good. But if you blended it with the remaining wine, this would be dilution by over 10x. E.G., could it make "that" much of a difference versus the convenience of not needing to stand up a bottle? I haven't risked this myself, even for science... but it strikes me as a reasonable science experiment to do. I wish I bought more from chambers's old cellar cleaning, that could have been a relatively low cost way of comparing two older nebbiolos from same cellar etc.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#62 Post by Kirk.Grant » October 11th, 2019, 11:33 am

Doug is referencing me in the post above. I do rest ALL reds with any age that is sufficient enough to have created some sediment (or if there was some left from the bottling process). I find that all sediment in reds tends to leave the wine tasting more bitter. I also think that there is differing levels of sediment. I think there is a fine sediment that will usually settle within 30 days, but particularly in older wines there seems to be a vast difference between 30 & 90 days (for me). I bought two 1999 Maume Charmes. I stood the first up and drank it about 35 days after I stood it up. It was good, enjoyable, but not brilliant. The second bottle that stood up in excess of 90 days at a 45-50 degree angle was so brilliant & delicious that three of us polished off the bottle in about 45 minutes...

Back to the original topic, I have some 64 & 71 Barolo that have been resting for about 6 months. I think I’ll open them this year...I’ll report back.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#63 Post by Sh@n A » October 11th, 2019, 11:43 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 11:33 am
I bought two 1999 Maume Charmes. I stood the first up and drank it about 35 days after I stood it up. It was good, enjoyable, but not brilliant. The second bottle that stood up in excess of 90 days at a 45-50 degree angle was so brilliant & delicious that three of us polished off the bottle in about 45 minutes...
Edit, answered my own question on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=156408&p=2776221&hi ... t#p2776221
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#64 Post by Wes Barton » October 11th, 2019, 2:27 pm

10% of nasty is nasty. Plenty of us posting in this thread have experienced wines ruined by being stirred up. Nebbiolo in particular. Often, it's actually still suspended sediment in a thin layer above what has settled out. That is easily stirred up and can be particularly bitter. Shine a light through a bottle like that and you see the layer of haze. That's what you watch when you decant such a wine.
I find that all sediment in reds tends to leave the wine tasting more bitter.
Sometimes, with very old wines, the best part is around the sediment. Or, the wine settles in layers that show differently. With our twice weekly blind tasting group it just isn't practical to decant. Wines have been stood for an appropriate amount of time, but it's pop-n-pour. One pourer per wine, so they are carefully walked around the tables and poured keeping the bottles tilted, mindful of sediment. We've had a few occasions where the votes on a wine were night and day from one table to the other. The table that got the later pours voted it highly. Comparing a glass from one table to the other shows a much more complex, complete, expressive wine that is wonderful, while the earlier pours are wimpy, unexpressive. Many times I've filtered or re-settled the last portion of an old bottle that had been left after decanting or careful pouring, and it's been the best, sometimes by far.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#65 Post by Sh@n A » October 11th, 2019, 2:29 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:27 pm
10% of nasty is nasty. Plenty of us posting in this thread have experienced wines ruined by being stirred up. Nebbiolo in particular. Often, it's actually still suspended sediment in a thin layer above what has settled out. That is easily stirred up and can be particularly bitter. Shine a light through a bottle like that and you see the layer of haze. That's what you watch when you decant such a wine.
But if run through a coffee filter that 10% may not be "nasty", and instead just be "not pristine"... and then blending that "not pristine" with 90% of remaining pristine = still kinda pristine? This may not be the case at all, and maybe your message was referring to the piece even run through a filter as "nasty". I guess the that's the question.. how bad is the remaining 2 oz when put through a filter?

I imagine folks have tried running a bottle of old through a coffee filter and it was not good... otherwise everyone would be doing it by now...
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#66 Post by Doug Schulman » October 11th, 2019, 4:30 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:29 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:27 pm
10% of nasty is nasty. Plenty of us posting in this thread have experienced wines ruined by being stirred up. Nebbiolo in particular. Often, it's actually still suspended sediment in a thin layer above what has settled out. That is easily stirred up and can be particularly bitter. Shine a light through a bottle like that and you see the layer of haze. That's what you watch when you decant such a wine.
But if run through a coffee filter that 10% may not be "nasty", and instead just be "not pristine"... and then blending that "not pristine" with 90% of remaining pristine = still kinda pristine? This may not be the case at all, and maybe your message was referring to the piece even run through a filter as "nasty". I guess the that's the question.. how bad is the remaining 2 oz when put through a filter?

I imagine folks have tried running a bottle of old through a coffee filter and it was not good... otherwise everyone would be doing it by now...
I have no idea why you would want "kinda pristine" when you could have pristine, especially when the difference is so little volume.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#67 Post by John Morris » October 11th, 2019, 4:43 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:27 pm
I find that all sediment in reds tends to leave the wine tasting more bitter.
Sometimes, with very old wines, the best part is around the sediment. Or, the wine settles in layers that show differently. With our twice weekly blind tasting group it just isn't practical to decant. Wines have been stood for an appropriate amount of time, but it's pop-n-pour. One pourer per wine, so they are carefully walked around the tables and poured keeping the bottles tilted, mindful of sediment. We've had a few occasions where the votes on a wine were night and day from one table to the other. The table that got the later pours voted it highly. Comparing a glass from one table to the other shows a much more complex, complete, expressive wine that is wonderful, while the earlier pours are wimpy, unexpressive. Many times I've filtered or re-settled the last portion of an old bottle that had been left after decanting or careful pouring, and it's been the best, sometimes by far.
Yes, I have found that sometimes with quite mature Bordeaux. In particular, if the bottle has been consumed over some period, a repour with some of the sediment seems more vibrant than the glass that came before.

This does not apply to all grapes, though, and particularly not nebbiolo.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#68 Post by Sh@n A » October 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Doug Schulman wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 4:30 pm
I have no idea why you would want "kinda pristine" when you could have pristine, especially when the difference is so little volume.
Convenience of not needing to stand up a wine 90 days in advance to enjoy it.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#69 Post by Wes Barton » October 11th, 2019, 5:33 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:29 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 2:27 pm
10% of nasty is nasty. Plenty of us posting in this thread have experienced wines ruined by being stirred up. Nebbiolo in particular. Often, it's actually still suspended sediment in a thin layer above what has settled out. That is easily stirred up and can be particularly bitter. Shine a light through a bottle like that and you see the layer of haze. That's what you watch when you decant such a wine.
But if run through a coffee filter that 10% may not be "nasty", and instead just be "not pristine"... and then blending that "not pristine" with 90% of remaining pristine = still kinda pristine? This may not be the case at all, and maybe your message was referring to the piece even run through a filter as "nasty". I guess the that's the question.. how bad is the remaining 2 oz when put through a filter?

I imagine folks have tried running a bottle of old through a coffee filter and it was not good... otherwise everyone would be doing it by now...
Depends how small the particulates are in relation to the filter. The easy free experimenting is with filtering the dregs of properly decanted bottles.

(And, with the non-Neb exceptions I noted, where that last bit was the best, perhaps adding the filtered portion to the decanter.)

Note there has been advice in other threads about what coffee filters to avoid, even for coffee, and how to rinse them prior to use, etc.

Also, my experience using coffee filters for various kitchen experiments over the years is they do clog. Not sure how convenient it is trying to figure out what to do next when you have 18 oz. of wine trapped above a filter.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#70 Post by Kirk.Grant » October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am

Sh@n A wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm
Doug Schulman wrote:
October 11th, 2019, 4:30 pm
I have no idea why you would want "kinda pristine" when you could have pristine, especially when the difference is so little volume.
Convenience of not needing to stand up a wine 90 days in advance to enjoy it.
I have roughly 12-15 bottles standing up at any given point in time. While I rarely drink a whole bottle (maybe actually one bottle every 4-5 weeks) but often taste 3-4 oz. just enough to have an impression and write a tasting note. I don't find this inconvenient, it just requires patience and planning. So at any given time I have about 3-4 Nebbiolo, 4-5 Pinots, 1-2 Syrah, 1-2 Gamay, 1-2 Sangiovese/Tuscan wines, and a few other random wines like Bordeaux, Jura, Loire, or something that allows me to have a balance of reds to select from.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#71 Post by Sh@n A » October 12th, 2019, 10:17 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am
I have roughly 12-15 bottles standing up at any given point in time.
I have a small NY apartment with a 20 bottle wine fridge. I've taken out the bottom shelves to allow 6-7 bottles to stand up with 10 bottles on the top. I'm now thinking of converting the top shelves as well to standing up, which would give me ~13 bottles standing up + 2 bottles side = 15 bottles "cellar" capacity. I have another 6 bottles I have stashed in the 40F fridge, for younger/cheaper/ready to drink. For winter I will be able to take delivery of another 2-3 cases which I can keep laying about in our ~68F closet (going to start tracking temperature now), to be consumed in the season (i.e. not long term storage and always below 75F, and probably more like 65F). Really would like another wine fridge, as come summer, this is too small capacity for taking deliveries + having capacity for wines I intend to drink. I have an offsite, but am learning that I need more wines onsite to settle sediment.
Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am
While I rarely drink a whole bottle (maybe actually one bottle every 4-5 weeks) but often taste 3-4 oz. just enough to have an impression and write a tasting note.
Are you sampling 3-4 oz a time over 4-5 weeks? If so, how are you doing this? E.G., are you using a Coravin (and wouldn't this disturb sediment), sticking in the fridge, have multiple bottles open at a time?
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#72 Post by Kirk.Grant » October 12th, 2019, 11:58 am

Sh@n A wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 10:17 am
Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am
I have roughly 12-15 bottles standing up at any given point in time.
I have a small NY apartment with a 20 bottle wine fridge.
Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am
While I rarely drink a whole bottle (maybe actually one bottle every 4-5 weeks) but often taste 3-4 oz. just enough to have an impression and write a tasting note.
Are you sampling 3-4 oz a time over 4-5 weeks? If so, how are you doing this? E.G., are you using a Coravin (and wouldn't this disturb sediment), sticking in the fridge, have multiple bottles open at a time?
Sh@n A,

Living in a small apartment can change a lot of how to do this. By the time I'm planning to open a bottle and stand it up, I'm keeping it in a closet that's average temp is about 66-69 (one of the perks of living in Maine). Having said that, storage space is tough to create in a small apartment. So I don't envy you there. If I was dealing with your space limitations I would strongly encourage you to check out Lowes or Home Depot for their 36 or 38 bottle wine fridges. The one I bought allowed for space to stand up 6 bottles and for $400 I was happy that it lasted for close to a decade with minimal problems (and no, I didn't buy the extended warranty). Your situation does change things considerably.

As to my consumption, my partner helps and so do friends. I do my best to keep my drinking to a minimum unless it's a group of wine geeks of special occasions. Plus, that will often allow me to get a look at the wine on day 2 and see where it is in the aging curve.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#73 Post by Chris Blum » October 12th, 2019, 12:12 pm

I think people are generally in favor of Barolo.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#74 Post by Doug Schulman » October 12th, 2019, 3:34 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 10:17 am
Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 12th, 2019, 8:19 am
I have roughly 12-15 bottles standing up at any given point in time.
I have a small NY apartment with a 20 bottle wine fridge.[...]
For settling sediment in older wines that you plan to drink within the next 6 months or so, even up to a year, I would keep them in the closet to conserve space in that wine fridge. They'll be fine. I wouldn't be using fridge space for anything that will be consumed in the near term.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#75 Post by Sh@n A » October 13th, 2019, 2:30 pm

So I opened the only old nebbiolo I have / stood up.. a 1978 barbaresco. Poured nearly all of it clean except for last 2 oz I ran through a coffee filter (with a fair amount of caked up sediment left in the bottle). On the PNP, the clean wine tasted on the palate has pure sour strawberry and high toned cherry. A quick taste of the 2 oz through the filter was the same underlying profile of wine, but a lot more bitter shoe leather, raisinated notes and feeling a little rough. Maybe this last 2oz will improve over time, but on the PNP this remaining 2 oz is a different wine than the 'clean wine', and drinking an entire bottle would be a different experience. So it is clear to me the coffee filter could remove visible sediment, but enough sediment comes through to change the character of the wine. Did not have the time today to create a mini blind, e.g. taking some of the 2oz 'dirty' in ratio with the clean, and comparing to the clean wine.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#76 Post by Ron Slye » October 13th, 2019, 3:04 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
October 13th, 2019, 2:30 pm
So I opened the only old nebbiolo I have / stood up.. a 1978 barbaresco. Poured nearly all of it clean except for last 2 oz I ran through a coffee filter (with a fair amount of caked up sediment left in the bottle). On the PNP, the clean wine tasted on the palate has pure sour strawberry and high toned cherry. A quick taste of the 2 oz through the filter was the same underlying profile of wine, but a lot more bitter shoe leather, raisinated notes and feeling a little rough. Maybe this last 2oz will improve over time, but on the PNP this remaining 2 oz is a different wine than the 'clean wine', and drinking an entire bottle would be a different experience. So it is clear to me the coffee filter could remove visible sediment, but enough sediment comes through to change the character of the wine. Did not have the time today to create a mini blind, e.g. taking some of the 2oz 'dirty' in ratio with the clean, and comparing to the clean wine.
This is incredibly informative -- thank you for doing it and sharing the results!

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#77 Post by John Morris » October 14th, 2019, 8:10 am

Sh@n A wrote:
October 13th, 2019, 2:30 pm
So I opened the only old nebbiolo I have / stood up.. a 1978 barbaresco. Poured nearly all of it clean except for last 2 oz I ran through a coffee filter (with a fair amount of caked up sediment left in the bottle). On the PNP, the clean wine tasted on the palate has pure sour strawberry and high toned cherry. A quick taste of the 2 oz through the filter was the same underlying profile of wine, but a lot more bitter shoe leather, raisinated notes and feeling a little rough. Maybe this last 2oz will improve over time, but on the PNP this remaining 2 oz is a different wine than the 'clean wine', and drinking an entire bottle would be a different experience. So it is clear to me the coffee filter could remove visible sediment, but enough sediment comes through to change the character of the wine. Did not have the time today to create a mini blind, e.g. taking some of the 2oz 'dirty' in ratio with the clean, and comparing to the clean wine.
Was the filtered wine cloudy at all, or compared to the rest of the bottle? Coffee filters don't take out super fine sediment, so I'm not surprised that you found that 2 oz. "rougher."
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#78 Post by Sh@n A » October 14th, 2019, 8:36 am

John Morris wrote:
October 14th, 2019, 8:10 am
Was the filtered wine cloudy at all, or compared to the rest of the bottle? Coffee filters don't take out super fine sediment, so I'm not surprised that you found that 2 oz. "rougher."
It was cloudier. I happened to accidentally take a full mouthful of the filtered wine a few hours later, and it was not pleasant at all / I spit it out (the wine was already not very great). Could really taste the difference, it was surprising to me.

In terms of cloudiness, I can 100% say that a fikter did not stop swirls of sediment dripping through in a old loire cab franc tried a few months ago. Easily visible swirls to the naked eye.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#79 Post by John Morris » October 18th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Jim Erwin wrote:
September 30th, 2019, 4:12 pm
I just ordered 6 of these ($5.99 ea) for my "on deck" Nebs. I think they will be a better alternative to standing upright in the cellar for a couple of weeks.

OK, mine arrived this week. But now I'm trying to figure out how you get the cork out without spilling wine or stirring up the sediment a lot. It seems much easier to remove the cork gently if the bottle stands straight upright. What am I missing?
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#80 Post by John Morris » October 18th, 2019, 3:34 pm

James Billy wrote:
September 16th, 2019, 4:57 am
Is fine sediment due to wines having less color pigmentation, (one of the building blocks of sediment?
It's a good question. I have no idea of the chemistry, but different grapes definitely produce different sediments. Syrah, for example, seems much more prone than other grapes to produce caked sediment on the side of a bottle that's been resting (which makes it easier to decant cleanly, incidentally). I rarely find that thin crusting in an older cabernet-based wine, for instance.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#81 Post by Sh@n A » October 18th, 2019, 5:30 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 3:30 pm
OK, mine arrived this week. But now I'm trying to figure out how you get the cork out without spilling wine or stirring up the sediment a lot. It seems much easier to remove the cork gently if the bottle stands straight upright. What am I missing?
+1. I also bought a couple and have been wondering this as well...

PS I opened a 2002 chevillon today. It had been stood up less than a week. Last couple oz had visible sediment, the coffee filter was able to catch some of that sediment and - in a mad rush - the last 2 oz run through the coffee filter did not taste as nice as the rest of the bottle. A weak datapoint given the rush, but it seems confirmatory of prior comments re pinot sediment. And I need to find a better coffee filter.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#82 Post by Xavier Lavoipierre » October 18th, 2019, 5:44 pm

Slightly off topic, but I opened a bottle of 2006 Burlotto Monvigliero a couple of months ago. Stood it up for a few weeks, decanted about six hours before dinner (but didn't start on it for at least another hour or more). I was surprised to find it had no sediment. My understanding is that Burlotto Monvigliero is bottled unfined and unfiltered. Any thoughts?

By the way, though I didn't take any detailed notes, the wine was terrific. Really opened up nicely with beautiful aromatics and maturing fruit. The tannins were substantial, but very fine, and it went very well with our pork roast!

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#83 Post by Al Osterheld » October 18th, 2019, 6:21 pm

The nasty sediment takes years to precipitate, would not expect it in a 2006 Barolo. Like others, I don't understand the chemistry, just indicated what I've experienced.

To be honest, don't even know that recent wines will develop that same sediment or whether it was more prevalent with wine making methods used many years ago. But, I suspect it's based on the age and not the wine making.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#84 Post by John Morris » October 18th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Al Osterheld wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:21 pm
The nasty sediment takes years to precipitate, would not expect it in a 2006 Barolo. Like others, I don't understand the chemistry, just indicated what I've experienced.

To be honest, don't even know that recent wines will develop that same sediment or whether it was more prevalent with wine making methods used many years ago. But, I suspect it's based on the age and not the wine making.

-Al
Exactly my thoughts. I think it will be another decade, at least, when the wines from the late 80s are at 40 years or so how much has changed since the 60s and 70s.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#85 Post by John Morris » October 19th, 2019, 4:01 pm

Decanting an 01 Produttori Montestefano this afternoon, there was a surprising amount of large and fine sediment.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#86 Post by Xavier Lavoipierre » October 19th, 2019, 4:45 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:25 pm
Al Osterheld wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:21 pm
The nasty sediment takes years to precipitate, would not expect it in a 2006 Barolo. Like others, I don't understand the chemistry, just indicated what I've experienced.

To be honest, don't even know that recent wines will develop that same sediment or whether it was more prevalent with wine making methods used many years ago. But, I suspect it's based on the age and not the wine making.

-Al
Exactly my thoughts. I think it will be another decade, at least, when the wines from the late 80s are at 40 years or so how much has changed since the 60s and 70s.
Al and John, thanks for the information. Seems that the Burgundies I drink precipitate sediment at a much younger age. Unless I just haven't been paying close enough attention.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#87 Post by Brady Daniels » October 20th, 2019, 12:52 am

Please don’t worry as much about Burgundy, Bordeaux, or other sediment. The point of this thread, imho, is that Nebbiolo sediment is different, and worth making the effort to avoid. It is bitter and truly alters/ruins the wine. Older Nebbs are the only wines that I insist on double decanting before bringing them to off-sites.

I’ve seen Michelin starred restaurants mishandle them badly. Don’t risk it, stand them upright (or angled, I guess), and decant them.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#88 Post by Robert Grenley » October 20th, 2019, 9:40 am

But on the subject of Burgundy sediment and decanting, I do stand up my bottles for anywhere from a couple of days to several weeks depending on how much notice I have, and I double decant before a tasting. I am wondering...when decanting I sometimes see a larger light “fluffy” but non-opaque ?sediment that if I stopped would leave sometimes several ounces or even more in the bottle. Not wanting to waste 25-50% of a bottle, I continue to pour. That is sometimes followed by a light hazy sediment, which depending on how much would be wasted I sometimes pour through...if I stopped there I might waste a few ounces. I do, of course, stop before pouring the dark, granular sediment at the bottom, and that usually only wastes an ounce or two.

I am wondering where others “stop” during their decanting of Burgundy. Pour through the hazy and stop at the big stuff? Stop at the hazy? And what is that fluffy stuff I sometimes see 25-50% of the way through?
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#89 Post by John Morris » October 20th, 2019, 10:16 am

Robert Grenley wrote:
October 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
But on the subject of Burgundy sediment and decanting, I do stand up my bottles for anywhere from a couple of days to several weeks depending on how much notice I have, and I double decant before a tasting. I am wondering...when decanting I sometimes see a larger light “fluffy” but non-opaque ?sediment that if I stopped would leave sometimes several ounces or even more in the bottle. Not wanting to waste 25-50% of a bottle, I continue to pour. That is sometimes followed by a light hazy sediment, which depending on how much would be wasted I sometimes pour through...if I stopped there I might waste a few ounces. I do, of course, stop before pouring the dark, granular sediment at the bottom, and that usually only wastes an ounce or two.

I am wondering where others “stop” during their decanting of Burgundy. Pour through the hazy and stop at the big stuff? Stop at the hazy? And what is that fluffy stuff I sometimes see 25-50% of the way through?
I stop as soon as I see the fine, hazy sediment. It imparts a bitterness. I've had a lot of mature Burgundies spoiled because people transported them to get-togethers and shook up the fine stuff. If I'm really desperate for the last few ounces, I run those through a coffee filter. Sometimes that tastes good, sometimes not.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#90 Post by Brady Daniels » October 20th, 2019, 10:50 am

Fine sediment in Burgundy, in moderation, rarely bothers me, certainly far less than Nebbiolo.

That said I sometimes decant until the fine sediment begins, then I continue pouring into a burgundy glass, and let it settle there. I stop pouring when the sediment gets more concentrated. That “sediment” glass is sometimes the best of the night. This never happens with Nebbiolo.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#91 Post by john stimson » October 20th, 2019, 2:40 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 20th, 2019, 10:16 am
Robert Grenley wrote:
October 20th, 2019, 9:40 am
But on the subject of Burgundy sediment and decanting, I do stand up my bottles for anywhere from a couple of days to several weeks depending on how much notice I have, and I double decant before a tasting. I am wondering...when decanting I sometimes see a larger light “fluffy” but non-opaque ?sediment that if I stopped would leave sometimes several ounces or even more in the bottle. Not wanting to waste 25-50% of a bottle, I continue to pour. That is sometimes followed by a light hazy sediment, which depending on how much would be wasted I sometimes pour through...if I stopped there I might waste a few ounces. I do, of course, stop before pouring the dark, granular sediment at the bottom, and that usually only wastes an ounce or two.

I am wondering where others “stop” during their decanting of Burgundy. Pour through the hazy and stop at the big stuff? Stop at the hazy? And what is that fluffy stuff I sometimes see 25-50% of the way through?
I stop as soon as I see the fine, hazy sediment. It imparts a bitterness. I've had a lot of mature Burgundies spoiled because people transported them to get-togethers and shook up the fine stuff. If I'm really desperate for the last few ounces, I run those through a coffee filter. Sometimes that tastes good, sometimes not.
I find a similar dilemma. I usually pour through the slight fluffy, see-thru sediment. some times after this there's a faint streak of light hazy stuff that I might pour thru that may continue or may disappear. When a little more significant hazy stuff shows up, or the darker granular stuff, then I stop.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#92 Post by Robert Grenley » October 20th, 2019, 11:05 pm

Does anyone have any idea what that fluffy stuff represents? I ask because I sometimes will see that relatively quickly upon decanting a bottle that has been standing, for example at halfway through the bottle, as if it just didn’t want to settle very well or was very easily disturbed. I originally wondered when I first saw it if it was some weird bacterial or yeast thing, but I have not noticed that it was associated with a flawed bottle. Well, I do remember it years ago being very prominent in a flawed bottle of Truchot Clos de la Roche from 96 or so, and at the time I wasn’t sure if it was a sign of a problem, but since then I have noted it during decanting in several bottles that seemed ok. Again, they appear as larger, “fluffy” see through things disbursed throughout the wine.
I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#93 Post by Jeff O k e a n » October 21st, 2019, 10:23 am

I agree that a lot of the sediment will get through a coffee filter. Your best bet if you're going to pour the wine, is letting the bottle rest in a cradle, or propping it up at about a 45 degree angle to rest; before uncorking and decanting. If you want to siphon the wine off into a decanter using surgical tubing; let the wine settle vertically - and this should give you the best results as well; but you'll need to practice.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#94 Post by David Glasser » October 21st, 2019, 6:12 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 3:30 pm
Jim Erwin wrote:
September 30th, 2019, 4:12 pm
I just ordered 6 of these ($5.99 ea) for my "on deck" Nebs. I think they will be a better alternative to standing upright in the cellar for a couple of weeks.

OK, mine arrived this week. But now I'm trying to figure out how you get the cork out without spilling wine or stirring up the sediment a lot. It seems much easier to remove the cork gently if the bottle stands straight upright. What am I missing?
It’s a bit awkward, but an Ah-so, Durand, or original Screwpull seem to be easier to use without disturbing the bottle than the classic waiter's wine key.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#95 Post by Tom L » December 3rd, 2019, 12:09 pm

Question for you guys on this topic: I'm planning to open a 1970 barolo from my wine fridge coming up... I have a wine cradle I could place the bottle in to allow sediment to settle. Would you put the unopened bottle in cradle back in a regular refrigerator (38 degrees) or just allow the bottle to settle at room temp for a few days before opening?
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#96 Post by John Morris » December 3rd, 2019, 12:13 pm

I wouldn't put it at refrigerator temperature. That tends to precipitate out solids. Even young reds will often throw some crust after an extended stay in the fridge. With an old Barolo, I think 38F would be shock treatment.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#97 Post by Greg Gardner » December 3rd, 2019, 12:52 pm

Re: paper taste imparted by coffee filters, just rinse the filter in water before using it to filter wine sediment. This is a common practice for pourover coffee, which can also pick up a papery taste from an unrinsed filter. Rinsing it in water first mitigates this, though I don't know the chemistry behind it.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#98 Post by Sh@n A » December 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm

John Morris wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:13 pm
I wouldn't put it at refrigerator temperature. That tends to precipitate out solids. Even young reds will often throw some crust after an extended stay in the fridge. With an old Barolo, I think 38F would be shock treatment.
John, can you please elaborate on what solids get shed by wine (you and old) by storing in the fridge? I had a couple '13s in the fridge for a month or two having run out of shelf space, and it never occurred to me some change would come about from storing at 40F vs. the 55F in the wine fridge.
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Re: Barolo Sediment

#99 Post by David Glasser » December 3rd, 2019, 1:32 pm

Theoretically, cooling a liquid can cause any dissolved substances to precipitate out of solution if they are present in near-saturation concentrations.

In practice, the only things I’ve seen precipitate out are tatrate crystals. But I’ve never put an old red wine in the fridge long enough to get it down to 40 degrees.

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Re: Barolo Sediment

#100 Post by Tom L » December 3rd, 2019, 2:24 pm

John Morris wrote:
December 3rd, 2019, 12:13 pm
I wouldn't put it at refrigerator temperature. That tends to precipitate out solids. Even young reds will often throw some crust after an extended stay in the fridge. With an old Barolo, I think 38F would be shock treatment.
Aha well glad I asked because I hadn't considered that. I was able to make space in the bottom rack of my wine fridge for a bottle in a cradle-- Space saving aspect of the cradle also helps a lot in that regard vs standing upright which I wouldn't have space for
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