Wines for 25+ years of aging

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JonathanG
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Wines for 25+ years of aging

#1 Post by JonathanG » September 13th, 2019, 8:32 pm

I'm planning on starting a wine locker for my 9 year old daughter. I want to build a pretty solid collection for her to appreciate and enjoy when she's in her 30s to 40s. Something I think all of us would have loved our parents to have done for us! Since I have only started collecting for aging myself, I have all things 2018 covered for this purpose. I'm looking for other wines/vintages to tuck away for her. I don't necessarily want to have a ton of Lafite and Margaux from multiple years, but am open to ideas/thoughts. I am probably going to add several wines and champagnes from 2009, like Dom, to the locker since it was the year of her birth... Appreciate any/all thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#2 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » September 13th, 2019, 9:11 pm

25 years is not too old for Bordeaux from a good year, and 2009 is a good year. You should be fine with good classed growths from 2009 Bordeaux. Burgundy too. 1990 is a solar vintage like 2009 that is now almost 30 years old, and if you try them you'll see that they are holding up well -- no longer young, but not on their last legs either.

Don't know your budget, but super seconds like 2009 Pichon Baron, Ducru, etc. will easily live to 30 and older, mand probably some third or fourth growths you can get for $100 or less will as well. In Burgundy, things like Le Corton (the red cotes de Beaune grand cru) will hold up 30+ years as well.

Then there is Bordeaux/Burgundy 2010...some of those will make the 50 year mark.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#3 Post by J. Rock » September 13th, 2019, 9:32 pm

Riesling! Tons of Riesling!
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#4 Post by Alex N » September 13th, 2019, 11:00 pm

Just my $.02, I wouldn't go heavy on any particular style. She may find what she likes in her 30's-40's and a collection with plenty of variation would give her the flexibility to keep what she wants and trade what she doesn't. A bottle of this, a few bottles of that, etc.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#5 Post by RichardFlack » September 13th, 2019, 11:08 pm

Def cover all, or many, bases.
Are you buying all at once or over a few years?
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#6 Post by IlkkaL » September 14th, 2019, 12:25 am

Prädikat Rieslings, traditional Barolo/Barbaresco, Taurasi, Demi-Sec/Moelleux Chenin, Tokaji.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#7 Post by Jason T » September 14th, 2019, 1:08 am

Alex N wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 11:00 pm
Just my $.02, I wouldn't go heavy on any particular style. She may find what she likes in her 30's-40's and a collection with plenty of variation would give her the flexibility to keep what she wants and trade what she doesn't. A bottle of this, a few bottles of that, etc.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#8 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 14th, 2019, 4:16 am

That would be a fun exercise. I had neither the spare cash nor the storage, to build not just a collection for myself, but also for my spoiled, entitled son, who now adores like really crappy cheap beer at BAMA. The cool thing is, if you have the wherewithal to do it, and it turns out she does not like wine, or does not like what you have amassed, you are still young enough to enjoy it yourself!

What I have learned over the years is that many wines can go that 25-year distance, so long as really well stored, perhaps even at a slightly cooler temperature than normally recommended. That does not mean that all of these wines will actually be better than they were at 10 years, but many will. And if not better, at least interesting. Looking beyond the obvious choice that you note, Bordeaux, I’ve had excellent wines from many countries and regions that showed really well with that kind of age on them. Knowing what I know today, I’d have a healthy cut of Beaujolais and Chinon in that mix. Some superb wines coming out of those regions, not expensive either, and many that can easily mature.

Baudry
Raffault
Rougeard
Plouzeau

Roilette
Roillard
Bouland
Thivin
Foillard

That’s my short list for Chinon and Beaujolais.

Then I would definitely load up on classic Bordeaux from the 1855 Classification and some specific Pomerols, like Trotanoy and Vieux Chateau Certan, the latter two wines being first growth quality IMHO. Lots of great stuff to choose from in recent vintages, 2014-18. Gotta add some California Cabs as well: Ridge Monte Bello, Mayacamas, Montelina, Dunn, Corison. And throw in some value plays. Some lesser-priced wines, think 2014 Lanessan and Sociando, can easily go 20+ years.

Northern Rhones are another worthy purchase. So many of these wines need a minimum of 15 years as is and can easily go and improve for 25+. These wines are getting pricey, but since you referenced Lafite and Margaux without saying that’s too expensive, then I will point out the big guns that not only will rock in 20+ years, but they may also be worth many multiples of what you paid: Jamet, Allemand, Chave, Gonon. See if you can find some Juge, which by her maturing age, will be beyond rare and quite legendary. Throw in some young gun producers like Xavier Cote Rotie. Southern Rhone is a mess right now, but I would still grab some classics, like Beaucastel. And Pegau.

I’ll leave the whites, desserts and other varieties to others from recommendation.
Last edited by Robert.A.Jr. on September 14th, 2019, 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#9 Post by James Billy » September 14th, 2019, 4:33 am

I'm sure Burgundy will appreciate better than Bordeaux. There certainly aren't warehouses full of back vintages of Burgundy nor more wine from new vintages than the market can bear unlike Bordeaux.

If that is the case, if she doesn't like thin, acidic wine she can sell it (to me pileon or) for a good price one day.

I'm not saying don't buy Bordeaux, just don't go deep on 'investment grade' stuff.

As above, make sure you get a good range of German Riesling, Loire chenin blanc and cab Franc, Northern Rhone Syrah, etc.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#10 Post by L.Cole » September 14th, 2019, 4:38 am

There are a few wines from Ridge Vineyards that should be a good fit.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#11 Post by Mattstolz » September 14th, 2019, 5:36 am

Just about any red from Italy should work. but especially wines from the Piedmont, and it was a good year there. also second reccs for classified Bordeaux, but some of the good outsiders like cantemerle are always good too. Northern rhone and burgs for sure as well... and RIESLING! riesling lives forever and just never seems to get old IMO.

edit: cantemerle is indeed classified, but IMO underrated.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#12 Post by IlkkaL » September 14th, 2019, 5:44 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 5:36 am
Just about any red from Italy should work. but especially wines from the Piedmont, and it was a good year there. also second reccs for classified Bordeaux, but some of the good outsiders like cantemerle are always good too. Northern rhone and burgs for sure as well... and RIESLING! riesling lives forever and just never seems to get old IMO.
Cantemerle is not classified?
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#13 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 14th, 2019, 6:09 am

Cantemerle is a Third Growth.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#14 Post by Craig G » September 14th, 2019, 6:49 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 6:09 am
Cantemerle is a Third Growth.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#15 Post by A1ex H » September 14th, 2019, 6:54 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 6:09 am
Cantemerle is a Third Growth.
It's a fifth growth that wasn't included in the initial classification due to an oversight.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#16 Post by A1ex H » September 14th, 2019, 6:55 am

2009 is a great vintage to do this for if you're focusing on her birth year. There's a pretty wide spectrum of wines that will make it 25+ years so it also depends on what regions/ styles you like. Also a great excuse to get large formats.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#17 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 14th, 2019, 6:58 am

Oopsy.

I was projecting.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#18 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » September 14th, 2019, 9:18 am

I have done this for all of my daughters. I agree with the suggestions of a variety, and I would add a suggestion of a variety of vintages/ages. I did not want to give them each a slug of 25 year old wine, and nothing younger, when they turned 25. I wanted to give them a little "mini-starter-cellar," with a variety of wines spread over the 25 years, so they could drink a couple each year (and hopefully replenish them if they're into it) over time. Or, as Alf said, drink it myself if they turned out not to be wine people. This also allowed me to buy the wines over a period of years, which made it more affordable. Starting when she's 9, you'll do a little back-filling, of course.

I went with a variety of wines that I like, because that way I knew what I was buying and it made plan B more palatable. If I had it to do over again, I'd mix more whites, bubbles, and dessert wines in. I seeded each with a few birth-year wines. I did buy some first-growths (which I don't otherwise buy) from their birth years, but those didn't go into their stashes. Those are in my stash to open with them on milestone birthdays. But I spent a little more on the birth-year wines that did go into their stash than on the rest of them, so that they would be a bit more special-occasion worthy. Otherwise, I just bought an extra bottle or two of something I was buying for my cellar anyway, in my normal price range for such wines.

I suggest something like this approach. It's overly anal, but I think it gives you good results:

First, come up with a list of categories you want for them and a total number of bottles you want to give them at the end of the project, given your available space and cash and generosity, and decide when you want to give them this gift (I chose their 25th birthday, which means I've only presented one of them so far - she really liked it). Then figure the maximum age you want for each category and use that to proportion each category within the total and when to buy the wines. For example, if you want to equally weight two types, but one ages twice as long as the other, you'd give her twice as many bottles of the longer-aging one so she can drink each with the same frequency while drinking the one at X years after the vintage and the other at 2X years after the vintage).

For example, if Bordeaux is one of the categories and based on your total and your proportioning, you want the final "locker" to contain 6 bottles of Bordeaux, with a max of 25 years, you buy one bottle now and one every 4 years from now until then. Buy one every 2 years if you want 12 in the final gift, or one every year if you want 24 in the final gift, etc. Skip weak vintages and double up on strong ones, etc. if you like.

For a category where you don't want so much age, just do the same thing but wait to buy the first bottle until the current vintage is X years before the year you'll give her the wines, where X is the maximum age you want for that wine. So maybe you want Chateauneuf du Pape in there, but with a max of 12 years of age. In that case, buy nothing until 12 years (vintages) before presentation day, then you buy one bottle every year, or two, or four, etc. until the big day.

This way she ends up with, for example, 3 bottles of zin spread over 6 vintages, 12 bottles of Bordeaux spread over 25 vintages, 6 bottles of CdP spread over 12 vintages, and so on for however many categories you want to use. Reds, whites, bubbles, dessert wines, etc.

And again, I'd shoot for more categories and fewer bottles per category over fewer categories and more per - that way you are giving her more of a "self-study" kit to explore wine on her own (and with her future SO or friends, or whatever) and you're gambling less on her liking the one or two particular styles you focused on.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#19 Post by Mattstolz » September 14th, 2019, 10:04 am

of course, everyone is right. i always picture it as being outside the classification because i always picture it as being entirely underrated.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#20 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » September 14th, 2019, 11:08 am

Cantemerle is also in the Haut-Medoc appellation, while most of the classified growths are in one of the more elite communes, another reason to think of it as a bit of an outsider.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#21 Post by Howard Cooper » September 14th, 2019, 11:26 am

If you want some Burgundies in the collection, I recommend:

Rossignol-Trapet Latricieres Chambertin or Chapelle Chambertin
Pierre Amiot Clos de la Roche
Hudelot-Noellat Clos Vougeot or Chambolle-Musigny Charmes or either Vosne Romanee Suchots or Beaumonts
Chandon de Briailles Corton Bressandes
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#22 Post by GregT » September 14th, 2019, 11:40 am

Since I have only started collecting for aging myself
This seems pretty important. If you still don't know what you like or how badly you love older wine, and you haven't had some of those mentioned, it seems pretty strange to load up on something and sit around for twenty five years waiting to try it. Rather than ask for random recommendations, why not try a lot of older wines to see what you like?

Some people are telling you to load up on Riesling, others on Barolo, others on Bordeaux. Sooner or later someone will suggest CdP and Zin. They're all different. Do you love old Riesling? I prefer it younger. Same with CdP and Zin. But I wouldn't want to wait twenty five years to figure that out.

Another thing you might do is let your kids taste some wine. Americans are really hung up on alcohol use by kids but their kids are nonetheless vaping and smoking marijuana. Maybe let your kids taste a bit of wine now and then. When I was a kid my parents let us taste it and that's how I figured out I like Riesling. But some people simply have a strong aversion to alcohol and/or acid and/or bitterness and it would be good to know that early on. And no, that's not to say that the taste preferences of a nine year old are going to be the same at age thirty. But I dated a girl once who wouldn't touch any alcohol at all, no matter what form it came in. No moral issue, just didn't like it.

As far as investments, there seems to be a lot of certainty regarding the value of various wines increasing. If I had that kind of ability to predict the future, I'd load up on surefire securities rather than wine. It would be wise to imagine that anything you "invest" in wine is simply going to be for your enjoyment, rather than provide a store of value.

Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck with whatever you do.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#23 Post by dsimmons » September 14th, 2019, 11:51 am

I did not see them mentioned above but CA Cabs like Ridge Monte Bello, Chateau Montelena, Seavey and Togni will go the distance.

I have never really tried to buy wines for my son but as a matter of course there is a large percentage of my cellar that will likely go to my son. I would focus on buying wines that you would like to drink.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#24 Post by Mike Reff » September 14th, 2019, 11:54 am

GregT wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:40 am
Since I have only started collecting for aging myself
This seems pretty important. If you still don't know what you like or how badly you love older wine, and you haven't had some of those mentioned, it seems pretty strange to load up on something and sit around for twenty five years waiting to try it. Rather than ask for random recommendations, why not try a lot of older wines to see what you like?


Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck with whatever you do.
Then again you could always snag some Washington state Red's with some age on it, brown bag it, serve it blind and convince your guests that it is aged Bordeaux! strawman

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#25 Post by Mike Reff » September 14th, 2019, 11:55 am

I purchased for my son, Ridge Monte Bello, and since his name is similar to Chateau Gazin, I bought a case of that.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#26 Post by William Kelley » September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am

My one piece of advice would be to buy some age-worthy inexpensive wines as well as well as a few rare bottles. Being born in 1989, I regret that my parents didn't buy e.g. 10 cases of 1989 Olga Raffault, or Clape, or Tempier, or anything else that was cheap back then. Having some volume of great mature wine is very special.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#27 Post by Victor Hong » September 14th, 2019, 1:48 pm

Medoc from 1995. newhere
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#28 Post by GregT » September 14th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Mike Reff wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:54 am
GregT wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:40 am
Since I have only started collecting for aging myself
This seems pretty important. If you still don't know what you like or how badly you love older wine, and you haven't had some of those mentioned, it seems pretty strange to load up on something and sit around for twenty five years waiting to try it. Rather than ask for random recommendations, why not try a lot of older wines to see what you like?


Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck with whatever you do.
Then again you could always snag some Washington state Red's with some age on it, brown bag it, serve it blind and convince your guests that it is aged Bordeaux! strawman
Especially if your friends showed up with a corked wine and a dead wine!

Some surprisingly good stuff anyway. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#29 Post by Markus S » September 14th, 2019, 6:21 pm

GregT wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:40 am

But I dated a girl once who wouldn't touch any alcohol at all, no matter what form it came in. No moral issue, just didn't like it.
And imagine being married to that girl!


I think if the poster is still learning wines himself, he's got plenty of time to buy wine for his daughter. First growths would always be appreciated, either by her herself in later years or if a bottle is needed to bribe someone off the streets to move you in sub-zero weather when she gets that creative job in New York City or Toronto.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#30 Post by Howard Cooper » September 14th, 2019, 6:34 pm

Add Chateau Climens, a few GKA from JJ Prum, Schloss Lieser, Zilliken and/or Reinhold Haart and some vintage Port.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#31 Post by GregT » September 14th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Markus S wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 6:21 pm
GregT wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:40 am

But I dated a girl once who wouldn't touch any alcohol at all, no matter what form it came in. No moral issue, just didn't like it.
And imagine being married to that girl!
Almost happened. Alcohol aside though, she did have some really wonderful preferences . . .
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#32 Post by JonathanG » September 14th, 2019, 8:59 pm

Thank you all for the responses, they are all awesome. To clarify, I have been drinking wine for a long time, and know BDX very well, including aged ones, but I just haven't had the ability to buy for aging until I moved back to the US recently. While living in Europe I had the opportunity to try a ton of different wines, and are big on BDX and talian. i'm just glad I now have the ability to lay some stuff down longer term.

Some of the things I am going to move over to her locker are Sassicaia, Gaja, Lafite, Margaux, and several other Brunellos and BDX that i love. I even bought some 6L, 9L, and one 15L 2018 EP that i am hoping I can use for her wedding someday. But the suggestions in ths thread are great in that they are leading me to age-worthy wines I have not thought about before, which is exactly why I started this thread. I know nothing about ageworthy Rieslings, but am going to be reading up on that now.
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#33 Post by Nathan Smyth » September 14th, 2019, 9:35 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am
Being born in 1989...

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#34 Post by c fu » September 14th, 2019, 9:38 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 9:35 pm
William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am
Being born in 1989...

The Wine Advocate
How did you land a gig at TWA before your 30th birthday?

Or do I really want to know the answer to that question?
Have you seen his writing and the level of knowledge he imparts?

He’s the best critic writing right now for the wines I drink
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#35 Post by J.Vizuete » September 14th, 2019, 10:55 pm

c fu wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 9:38 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 9:35 pm
William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am
Being born in 1989...

The Wine Advocate
How did you land a gig at TWA before your 30th birthday?

Or do I really want to know the answer to that question?
Have you seen his writing and the level of knowledge he imparts?

He’s the best critic writing right now for the wines I drink
+1. And it isn’t close
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#36 Post by Julian Marshall » September 15th, 2019, 12:53 am

William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am
My one piece of advice would be to buy some age-worthy inexpensive wines as well as well as a few rare bottles. Being born in 1989, I regret that my parents didn't buy e.g. 10 cases of 1989 Olga Raffault, or Clape, or Tempier, or anything else that was cheap back then. Having some volume of great mature wine is very special.
Quite so - Loire reds from 2009 would be a great idea since it's an excellent vintage and you really don't need to spend a fortune on Clos Rougeard, just find some top Chinons (Baudry, Joguet, Alliet, Raffault, Couly, etc) or you could try Robert's suggestion, Plouzeau. They'll last for decades.

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#37 Post by William Kelley » September 15th, 2019, 5:31 am

Nathan Smyth wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 9:35 pm
William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 11:58 am
Being born in 1989...

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How did you land a gig at TWA before your 30th birthday?

Or do I really want to know the answer to that question?
Robert Parker founded The Wine Advocate aged 31, Jancis Robinson became assistant editor of Wine & Spirits aged 25, and Hugh Johnson started writing about wine aged 21. Which is simply to say that youth is not necessarily an impediment.
Last edited by William Kelley on September 15th, 2019, 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dennis Borczon
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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#38 Post by Dennis Borczon » September 15th, 2019, 5:32 am

JonathanG wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 8:59 pm
I even bought some 6L, 9L, and one 15L 2018 EP that i am hoping I can use for her wedding someday.

Except for the fact that in 25 years there will be no post-millenials getting married anymore...

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#39 Post by Dennis Borczon » September 15th, 2019, 5:34 am

He’s the best critic writing right now for the wines I drink

+1

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Re: Wines for 25+ years of aging

#40 Post by Mattstolz » September 15th, 2019, 5:50 am

JonathanG wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 8:59 pm
Thank you all for the responses, they are all awesome. To clarify, I have been drinking wine for a long time, and know BDX very well, including aged ones, but I just haven't had the ability to buy for aging until I moved back to the US recently. While living in Europe I had the opportunity to try a ton of different wines, and are big on BDX and talian. i'm just glad I now have the ability to lay some stuff down longer term.

Some of the things I am going to move over to her locker are Sassicaia, Gaja, Lafite, Margaux, and several other Brunellos and BDX that i love. I even bought some 6L, 9L, and one 15L 2018 EP that i am hoping I can use for her wedding someday. But the suggestions in ths thread are great in that they are leading me to age-worthy wines I have not thought about before, which is exactly why I started this thread. I know nothing about ageworthy Rieslings, but am going to be reading up on that now.
I really believe its harder to find riesling that ISNT at least age-able than that is. whether its worthy of it or not...

but there are some great producers making incredibly interesting wines, and you can get a huge range of styles. all of which I think are good things. if you're putting down those listed I'd also think about some late-harvested Egon Muller and JJ Prum, some dry Keller and Donnhoff GG. I also am a big fan of Schafer-Frohlich GGs. the big win with these is that they could all be 50 year wines instead of just 25 if she takes a little while to come around to the berserker world.

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