Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

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Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#1 Post by Gerhard P. » September 9th, 2019, 4:18 am

Quite a lot of (top) producers seem to postpone the release of their new vintages or top wines more and more ...

Most famous example is Chateau RAYAS: soon after Emmanuel Reynaud took over after the passing of his uncle Jacques in 1997 he released vintages not in the 2nd spring/summer after the vintage ... but a year later. That always includes Pignan and Fonsalette, not only Ch.Rayas.

It did not take long until it happened again - another year later.

At the moment the 2011s have been postponed until 2020, and the 2012 will not see the light of the day before 2022 - he told me last week.
(One of) the reason(s) is that he doesn´t want his wines to be drunk too early - and many people - not only but often in the US - are emptying bottles/cases soon after purchase. Emmanuel states that the minimum time in bottle for Rayas is 10-12 years ... even in smaller vintages.
(there may also be other reasons, tax etc. ...)

His other estate Chateau DES TOURS had a similar policy, the Vin des Pays and the Cotes-du-Rhone were available usually 4 years (!) after the vintage, the Vacqueyras 7 years (last year vintage 2014 + 2011).
This years I learned that the Vacqueyras will be postponed also 10 years, just like Rayas ... so the 2012 will be available only in 2022.

As a substitute he will now and then release small quantities of older vintages ...(usually at higher prices).

It is clear that this is only possible for producers with strong financial background (the wines are almost all in bottle yet) ...
but on the other hand it is also a good investment into ones own wines ... the release prices will no doubt be higher later on, a good rate of interests ...

Stephane OGIER also postponed his Côte-Rôtie RESERVE 2016 ... and he is also talking about 2022 ...
I´ve tasted a bottle - and it was sensational, although better on day two ...
I guess that will also apply to his Cru-bottlings like Belle Helene, Lancement and Cote blonde ...
the 2015s have just been released - the 2016s might not be for a longer time.

Burgundy: JF MUGNIER did not yet release any Musigny GC 2014 and younger - and maybe only tiny quantities of 2013 ...
although all other crus 2017 are available now.

There are more examples.

What are you thinking about this practices?
(at the moment I´m absolutely neutral to it ...)
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#2 Post by YLee » September 9th, 2019, 4:41 am

I am neutral to it as well. Good to know when the Rayas will be released. I have been wondering why they didnt show up here yet.
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#3 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 9th, 2019, 4:46 am

Wish more Chateaux had been doing this for years so that there would be a pipeline of well-stored wines released at a time when they might show better. I appreciate those that do so now, like some Rioja producers (now if I could only get them to switch away from American oak).

One of my favorite American Zin producers releases his wines almost immediately. I’ve always wished he could sit on them 1-2 years as they show so much better with just a wee bit of bottle age. I always wonder whether some customers are lost in that window where the wines do not show as well as they ultimately will.

Is this working well for Chateau Latour?

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#4 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 9th, 2019, 5:04 am

Arcadian does this.
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#5 Post by JDavisRoby » September 9th, 2019, 5:08 am

I believe Mt Eden does this but not this extreme. 4-5 years?
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#6 Post by Markus S » September 9th, 2019, 5:10 am

Good for them! Wish more wineries had the cajones to do this.
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#7 Post by Robert Sand » September 9th, 2019, 5:20 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 4:46 am

Is this working well for Chateau Latour?
as far as I´ve heard they maybe might jump back to Primeurs --- but this is unconfirmed -
I mean who is buying 2013 Les Forts now -

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#8 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 9th, 2019, 5:32 am

Interesting. I didn’t know that Latour held back the second label as well. Perhaps a hybrid approach is better. Release second labels and restaurant vintages through normal channels. Or, perhaps that stigmatizes the FG when they make a decision to release early, which the markets views then as a lesser vintage.

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#9 Post by James Billy » September 9th, 2019, 6:34 am

Well they price the vintages according to perceived quality, already.

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#10 Post by C. Mc Cart » September 9th, 2019, 8:26 am

Good for them if they have the storage. Maybe just my own perception, but it feels like influencers are popping younger bottles these days and cases are gone for the likes vs. desire for drinking at or near maturity.
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#11 Post by William Kelley » September 9th, 2019, 9:36 am

I think it's a good thing. I want wineries to continue to produce age worthy wines, as the complexity and texture and sapid nuance that comes with age cannot be attained any other way, but fewer and fewer people have cellars—to say nothing of the habit of delayed gratification. Either wines will inexorably become more front-loaded and immediate, sacrificing some of their potential for the long haul, or producers have to do the aging for us. The only downside is that the wines will be more expensive when they are eventually released.
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#12 Post by A Songeur » September 9th, 2019, 9:38 am

When I visited domaine Mugnier in June, they told me the 2013 Musigny would be the first to be released but they had decided against when they tasted it... si so far no late Musigny release for Mugnier... as 2012 was released with other wines. [cheers.gif]
I don't blame them as cash does not bear interest anymore.... but they need the space... so will probably release only small or expensive cuvees.
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#13 Post by Claus Jeppesen » September 9th, 2019, 9:45 am

Chateau Bel Air Marquis d'Aligre?
(the one Alfert used to like)
Current vintage is 2012, no?
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#14 Post by c fu » September 9th, 2019, 9:54 am

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 5:04 am
Arcadian does this.
Yep!! Been doing this for years. Other california Pinot producers are releasing 16/17 now. They are still on 2012/2013 and still priced really well.
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#15 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 9th, 2019, 10:37 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:45 am
Chateau Bel Air Marquis d'Aligre?
(the one Alfert used to like)
Current vintage is 2012, no?
LOL, yes. How could I forget! And ironically, I got an offering today from vintages 1995-2010. Did not know 2012 is out. Just grabbed some 2005 from another source. So 2019 is the owner's 70th vintage. Wow.

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#16 Post by J a y H a c k » September 9th, 2019, 10:47 am

Reminds me of the famous joke that ends with the line, "patience, jackass, patience."

If the winery says "Do not drink for five years" and I drink it after two years, it's my fault. If they hold it for 5 years before releasing it, I will expect to pay their cost of storage and the time value of the money they lose for not selling it immediately. If I have space for free extra storage and I can afford to pay now, it's just a matter of whether I have the self control not to drink it on the stairs going down to the cellar.
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#17 Post by ybarselah » September 9th, 2019, 11:41 am

fwiw - an explanation from mugnier...

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#18 Post by A Songeur » September 9th, 2019, 12:41 pm

An excellent rationale for releasing later!...
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#19 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 9th, 2019, 1:24 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:36 am
I think it's a good thing. I want wineries to continue to produce age worthy wines, as the complexity and texture and sapid nuance that comes with age cannot be attained any other way, but fewer and fewer people have cellars—to say nothing of the habit of delayed gratification. Either wines will inexorably become more front-loaded and immediate, sacrificing some of their potential for the long haul, or producers have to do the aging for us. The only downside is that the wines will be more expensive when they are eventually released.
I agree with most of this. I'm not sure it's a "good thing"; I would agree that it is a good thing if the failure to hold-back will mean that wineries will choose to make less-age-worthy wines.

The part of your comment that I put in bold surprised me to read. I would guess the opposite, but that's all it would be --- a guess. It seems people know more about proper wine storage now than they used to (it seems wine fridges and off-site storage are more normal today than they used to be --- that's the perception I have, at least --- I haven't been around since "used to"). William, were you talking in terms of absolute number, or percentage of folks who buy and store/age wine?
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#20 Post by Kris Patten » September 9th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Not a fan as a consumer. It rewards those with money vs. those with time and energy to cellar and age. By holding back you drive up historical vintage pricing due to scarce supply, then release newer vintages at closer to market price.

Imagine a pre-mox poster child doing this....high risk move, I'd applaud as my risk would be lower, and pay a premium.
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#21 Post by William Kelley » September 9th, 2019, 1:52 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 1:24 pm
William Kelley wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:36 am
I think it's a good thing. I want wineries to continue to produce age worthy wines, as the complexity and texture and sapid nuance that comes with age cannot be attained any other way, but fewer and fewer people have cellars—to say nothing of the habit of delayed gratification. Either wines will inexorably become more front-loaded and immediate, sacrificing some of their potential for the long haul, or producers have to do the aging for us. The only downside is that the wines will be more expensive when they are eventually released.
I agree with most of this. I'm not sure it's a "good thing"; I would agree that it is a good thing if the failure to hold-back will mean that wineries will choose to make less-age-worthy wines.

The part of your comment that I put in bold surprised me to read. I would guess the opposite, but that's all it would be --- a guess. It seems people know more about proper wine storage now than they used to (it seems wine fridges and off-site storage are more normal today than they used to be --- that's the perception I have, at least --- I haven't been around since "used to"). William, were you talking in terms of absolute number, or percentage of folks who buy and store/age wine?
I'm also offering a perception rather than data, but there are wine refrigerators and then there are cellars with 5,000+ bottle capacity. More of the former are great, but if you want to regularly drink 20+-year-old bottles that you purchased on release, you need the latter. As wine appreciation has diversified socially and geographically, more and more wine lovers live in homes without cellars. And certainly, I don't know many people my age (vintage 1989) with an underground cellar and the volition to buy wines and forget them for thirty years. I am doing that (my line is that my mid-life crisis will consist in drinking the bottles I bought as a student), but I've also made it my career. These days, most millennial wine drinkers have never even tasted a mature wine: if producers don't hold wines back, they will never have the opportunity, and what seems to me an important part of wine culture will rapidly be lost.
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#22 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » September 9th, 2019, 2:01 pm

I don't particularly mind one way or another, but would think it's funny to claim the reason is to release the wine only once "mature". Mature for those wines is not 6 years post vintage. AFAIK, the only producer to ACTUALLY release only once mature is Ampeau! Nonetheless, if it means less of those bottles are immediately hoovered up by label-validation-seeking restaurant patrons then it probably does more good than harm ;)!
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#23 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 9th, 2019, 3:57 pm

Thanks for your response, William. I think you may be underestimating the proliferation of off-site storage; of course, I may be over-estimating it. :)

One thing we absolutely agree on, however, is the apparently-dwindling patience of the average wine geek. Although I am firmly in the "your wine, do what you want with it" camp, I will admit that my stomach nonetheless simultaneously turns when I see grand wines routinely being opened far "before their time." Only so many wines can achieve a certain kind of greatness, so it is somewhat unfortunate (in my mind) when I see such wines opened before they are allowed to reach that point in their maturation process. Of course, the occasional infanticide is an exception to all of that, but I think you know what I mean. [cheers.gif]
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#24 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 9th, 2019, 4:34 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:36 am
I think it's a good thing. I want wineries to continue to produce age worthy wines, as the complexity and texture and sapid nuance that comes with age cannot be attained any other way, but fewer and fewer people have cellars—to say nothing of the habit of delayed gratification. Either wines will inexorably become more front-loaded and immediate, sacrificing some of their potential for the long haul, or producers have to do the aging for us. The only downside is that the wines will be more expensive when they are eventually released.
Prolly a good thing for me. I’m like a crack addict. The only limit to my hitting the crack pipe for more wine is my limit on off-site storage. My facility is 100% booked. I have no more room. And with a hurricane scare every 3-4 years, and every other one knocking out power, I’m not storing at home again, except for a regular size wine fridge.

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#25 Post by Nick Gangas » September 9th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Didn't know there was a set plan for Rayas. Good to know the pain. How about the 2010 ?

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#26 Post by James Billy » September 9th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Rauno E (NZ) wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 2:01 pm
I don't particularly mind one way or another, but would think it's funny to claim the reason is to release the wine only once "mature". Mature for those wines is not 6 years post vintage. AFAIK, the only producer to ACTUALLY release only once mature is Ampeau! Nonetheless, if it means less of those bottles are immediately hoovered up by label-validation-seeking restaurant patrons then it probably does more good than harm ;)!
Totally agree that 6 years old is a terrible age for Burgundy.

I think restaurants would love to buy slightly aged wines straight from the winery. It looks much better in a list than newly released vintages. Unless you understand wines well that is.

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#27 Post by Robert Sand » September 10th, 2019, 1:05 am

Kris Patten wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Not a fan as a consumer. It rewards those with money vs. those with time and energy to cellar and age. By holding back you drive up historical vintage pricing due to scarce supply, then release newer vintages at closer to market price.
Rauno E (NZ) wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 2:01 pm
I don't particularly mind one way or another, but would think it's funny to claim the reason is to release the wine only once "mature". Mature for those wines is not 6 years post vintage. AFAIK, the only producer to ACTUALLY release only once mature is Ampeau! Nonetheless, if it means less of those bottles are immediately hoovered up by label-validation-seeking restaurant patrons then it probably does more good than harm ;)!
James Billy wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Totally agree that 6 years old is a terrible age for Burgundy.

I think restaurants would love to buy slightly aged wines straight from the winery. It looks much better in a list than newly released vintages. Unless you understand wines well that is.
I agree with Freddy Mugnier as well as with the postings above, but
1) top Burgundies are not mature before 12-15 years of age, better with 20y
2) the price at the domaine will certainly rise over time (and I do have a good cellar of my own)
3) I will not be able to afford Musigny then - neither at the domaine, far less in any restaurant

So it´s more a punishment for private customers with own cellars, and a good additional income for producers and restaurants.
I would rather see (close to) mature wines at affordable prices in restaurants - for instance a Chambolle Village 2007, not only 2016/17 -

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#28 Post by Gerhard P. » September 10th, 2019, 1:59 am

Nick Gangas wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Didn't know there was a set plan for Rayas. Good to know the pain. How about the 2010 ?
2010 is already released (I think this spring) - don´t know if everywhere.
But my warning is: it won´t be fully mature before 2025-2028 ... better drink 2008, 2006, 2004 and older now ...

However I don´t understand why the 2011 hasn´t been released before the 2010 (in terms of maturity), but the goal seems to be "10 years after the vintage" for all RAYAS-cuvées (Rayas, Pignan, Fonsalette) as well as for Chateau DES TOURS Vacqueyras (which is the most ageworthy wine).
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#29 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » September 10th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Robert - I can see it making a difference to those customers who currently have a direct cost/wholesale plus mark-up allocation for those wines. I can count on the fingers of one thumb the number of people I know who are lucky enough to get Rayas and Mugnier in that way ;)! Even for most of us hunting for apex-predator allocations these wines are quite rare or unobtainable. If the domaines hike their prices for late releases I would think it makes a difference to 1% on this board, which is of course already less than 1% of the general wine appreciation crowd.
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#30 Post by John Morris » September 10th, 2019, 2:25 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 4:18 am
What are you thinking about this practices?
(at the moment I´m absolutely neutral to it ...)
It's nice that business is so good that they can afford to sit on inventory for an extra year or two. That's a lot of money tied up that otherwise would have represented cash in the door.

I'm sure in many cases it is a sincere desire to release a wine nearer its prime. But when so many people are doing it, you have to wonder if it doesn't reflect a soft market.
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#31 Post by John Morris » September 10th, 2019, 2:26 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 9:36 am
I think it's a good thing. I want wineries to continue to produce age worthy wines, as the complexity and texture and sapid nuance that comes with age cannot be attained any other way, but fewer and fewer people have cellars—to say nothing of the habit of delayed gratification. Either wines will inexorably become more front-loaded and immediate, sacrificing some of their potential for the long haul, or producers have to do the aging for us. The only downside is that the wines will be more expensive when they are eventually released.
I really hope that's what's behind this. That would be excellent!
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#32 Post by Nick Gangas » September 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:59 am
Nick Gangas wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Didn't know there was a set plan for Rayas. Good to know the pain. How about the 2010 ?
2010 is already released (I think this spring) - don´t know if everywhere.
But my warning is: it won´t be fully mature before 2025-2028 ... better drink 2008, 2006, 2004 and older now ...

However I don´t understand why the 2011 hasn´t been released before the 2010 (in terms of maturity), but the goal seems to be "10 years after the vintage" for all RAYAS-cuvées (Rayas, Pignan, Fonsalette) as well as for Chateau DES TOURS Vacqueyras (which is the most ageworthy wine).
releasing the 09 here now I believe. Personally I'm on the 90's vintages and 2001.

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#33 Post by Gerhard P. » September 10th, 2019, 11:25 pm

Nick Gangas wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:59 am
Nick Gangas wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Didn't know there was a set plan for Rayas. Good to know the pain. How about the 2010 ?
2010 is already released (I think this spring) - don´t know if everywhere.
But my warning is: it won´t be fully mature before 2025-2028 ... better drink 2008, 2006, 2004 and older now ...

However I don´t understand why the 2011 hasn´t been released before the 2010 (in terms of maturity), but the goal seems to be "10 years after the vintage" for all RAYAS-cuvées (Rayas, Pignan, Fonsalette) as well as for Chateau DES TOURS Vacqueyras (which is the most ageworthy wine).
releasing the 09 here now I believe. Personally I'm on the 90's vintages and 2001.
From Chateau des Tours Vacqueyras 2011 should be available, Rayas 2010 at least(somewhere) in Europe and Asia ... all according to WS.
La Pialade 2014 as well.
But I don´t know about the US.

Ch. des Tours Cotes-du-Rhone and (Domaine des Tours) Vin des Pays 2015 are in the market.
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#34 Post by William Kelley » September 11th, 2019, 1:15 am

Nick Gangas wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:59 am
Nick Gangas wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 7:30 pm
Didn't know there was a set plan for Rayas. Good to know the pain. How about the 2010 ?
2010 is already released (I think this spring) - don´t know if everywhere.
But my warning is: it won´t be fully mature before 2025-2028 ... better drink 2008, 2006, 2004 and older now ...

However I don´t understand why the 2011 hasn´t been released before the 2010 (in terms of maturity), but the goal seems to be "10 years after the vintage" for all RAYAS-cuvées (Rayas, Pignan, Fonsalette) as well as for Chateau DES TOURS Vacqueyras (which is the most ageworthy wine).
releasing the 09 here now I believe. Personally I'm on the 90's vintages and 2001.
That's right, they held back the 09 a bit longer for the US, releasing this year to coincide with the Martine's anniversary.
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#35 Post by Robert Sand » September 11th, 2019, 3:28 am

William Kelley wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 1:15 am
Nick Gangas wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:59 am


2010 is already released (I think this spring) - don´t know if everywhere.
But my warning is: it won´t be fully mature before 2025-2028 ... better drink 2008, 2006, 2004 and older now ...

However I don´t understand why the 2011 hasn´t been released before the 2010 (in terms of maturity), but the goal seems to be "10 years after the vintage" for all RAYAS-cuvées (Rayas, Pignan, Fonsalette) as well as for Chateau DES TOURS Vacqueyras (which is the most ageworthy wine).
releasing the 09 here now I believe. Personally I'm on the 90's vintages and 2001.
That's right, they held back the 09 a bit longer for the US, releasing this year to coincide with the Martine's anniversary.
Funny - so it doesn´t only depend on the ideas of winemakers, but also on anniversaries of importers ...
the US-clients might be extremely happy about that ...
neener

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#36 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 11th, 2019, 5:32 am

HDH just offered Ex-Chateau 2011 Latour at $3400 for 6. Arrives early 2020.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#37 Post by John Morris » September 11th, 2019, 7:22 am

So much for my speculation about a softening market.
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#38 Post by William Kelley » September 11th, 2019, 9:18 am

Robert Sand wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 3:28 am
William Kelley wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 1:15 am
Nick Gangas wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm


releasing the 09 here now I believe. Personally I'm on the 90's vintages and 2001.
That's right, they held back the 09 a bit longer for the US, releasing this year to coincide with the Martine's anniversary.
Funny - so it doesn´t only depend on the ideas of winemakers, but also on anniversaries of importers ...
the US-clients might be extremely happy about that ...
neener
I think it was Emmanuel who wanted to hold it back, and the timing is a happy coincidence. I don't know if that's the case here, but certainly a lot of French winemakers seem to have the perception that Americans drink their wines too young—something that is also the case in a lot of French restaurants in France, of course.

The 2009 Rayas wines are so far from being ready that I don't think anyone will miss not having the bottles, as long as they get them eventually.
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#39 Post by Nick Gangas » September 11th, 2019, 12:00 pm

My only problem is the late releases I suspect will b heavily marked up. Also I noticed Mugnier Amoureuses jumped in price once the Musigny was held back. The Amoureuses then became the top dog.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#40 Post by robert creth » September 11th, 2019, 12:01 pm

I guess I am one of the few who find this insulting as a consumer. The idea of telling me that I am not smart enough to know how to consume a bottle of wine that you sold me, that the f***ing wine has to be protected from potential customers is, to me, ridiculous! Maybe the experience i want from that bottle is as fresh as the day it is bottled, maybe I like unaged potential. Don’t dictate to me my enjoyment. It smacks of elitist bull!!

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#41 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 11th, 2019, 12:24 pm

When a winemaker sells you a wine when s/he thinks it is ready to drink, s/he is not dictating to you but selling to you what s/he thinks is the wine s/he wants to sell. The people who make the stuff have the right to make such determinations.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#42 Post by Robert Sand » September 12th, 2019, 12:14 am

robert creth wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:01 pm
I guess I am one of the few who find this insulting as a consumer. The idea of telling me that I am not smart enough to know how to consume a bottle of wine that you sold me, that the f***ing wine has to be protected from potential customers is, to me, ridiculous! Maybe the experience i want from that bottle is as fresh as the day it is bottled, maybe I like unaged potential. Don’t dictate to me my enjoyment. It smacks of elitist bull!!
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:24 pm
When a winemaker sells you a wine when s/he thinks it is ready to drink, s/he is not dictating to you but selling to you what s/he thinks is the wine s/he wants to sell. The people who make the stuff have the right to make such determinations.
A winemaker is entitled to do with his product what he wants to - sell it, not selling it, earlier/later, even drinking all himself - (that excludes long term contracts with importers etc). This is not dictating the consumer what to do.

However I personally prefer to decide on my own. I have a good cool cellar, I love aged wines, but now and then like to taste a bottle out of 6 or 12 young after bottling.

I also prefer to buy early and cheaper than later and more expensive.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#43 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 12th, 2019, 12:55 am

Robert Sand wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:14 am
robert creth wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:01 pm
I guess I am one of the few who find this insulting as a consumer. The idea of telling me that I am not smart enough to know how to consume a bottle of wine that you sold me, that the f***ing wine has to be protected from potential customers is, to me, ridiculous! Maybe the experience i want from that bottle is as fresh as the day it is bottled, maybe I like unaged potential. Don’t dictate to me my enjoyment. It smacks of elitist bull!!
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:24 pm
When a winemaker sells you a wine when s/he thinks it is ready to drink, s/he is not dictating to you but selling to you what s/he thinks is the wine s/he wants to sell. The people who make the stuff have the right to make such determinations.
A winemaker is entitled to do with his product what he wants to - sell it, not selling it, earlier/later, even drinking all himself - (that excludes long term contracts with importers etc). This is not dictating the consumer what to do.

However I personally prefer to decide on my own. I have a good cool cellar, I love aged wines, but now and then like to taste a bottle out of 6 or 12 young after bottling.

I also prefer to buy early and cheaper than later and more expensive.
Sure, we all have our preferences. Some of them are based on habit, though. I take it you don't object to those winemakers who bottle sometimes as much as a couple of years later than others. You let them decide when to put it in bottle acccording to their lights. If you don't like the result you don't buy it. If you think they are asking more than it's worth, you don't buy it, etc. This is really no different.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#44 Post by robert creth » September 12th, 2019, 3:21 am

My issue is the statement that many in the US are emptying cases soon after purchase, as if that is some crime. I don’t care how long the vintners hold the wine, I just object to them telling me what to do after I purchase or insinuating that my choices are invalid.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#45 Post by Jason T » September 12th, 2019, 3:54 am

robert creth wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 3:21 am
My issue is the statement that many in the US are emptying cases soon after purchase, as if that is some crime. I don’t care how long the vintners hold the wine, I just object to them telling me what to do after I purchase or insinuating that my choices are invalid.
I think if you are making a conscious choice, it’s valid. But I’m guessing most consumers aren’t making a conscious choice - that they don’t even understand the benefits of aging, or whether a wine can be drunk “too young”. (And yes, I get that term is subjective - if you like them young, you like them young - you know what you’re in for).

You’re an unintended casualty in this, similar to those with proper cellars that prefer “buy and hold”.
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#46 Post by Gerhard P. » September 12th, 2019, 4:22 am

It' s certainly not a "crime" - it's got to do with culture ... cellaring a wine, opening it properly (with aeration time), enjoying it in full maturity and best condition ... it' s definitely different from coke or bud ...
I do understand when producers hold back some or all wines ... and it's THEIR right to do so ... even if I'm personally not that happy about ...
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#47 Post by Robert Sand » September 12th, 2019, 7:18 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:55 am
Robert Sand wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 12:14 am
robert creth wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:01 pm
I guess I am one of the few who find this insulting as a consumer. The idea of telling me that I am not smart enough to know how to consume a bottle of wine that you sold me, that the f***ing wine has to be protected from potential customers is, to me, ridiculous! Maybe the experience i want from that bottle is as fresh as the day it is bottled, maybe I like unaged potential. Don’t dictate to me my enjoyment. It smacks of elitist bull!!
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 12:24 pm
When a winemaker sells you a wine when s/he thinks it is ready to drink, s/he is not dictating to you but selling to you what s/he thinks is the wine s/he wants to sell. The people who make the stuff have the right to make such determinations.
A winemaker is entitled to do with his product what he wants to - sell it, not selling it, earlier/later, even drinking all himself - (that excludes long term contracts with importers etc). This is not dictating the consumer what to do.

However I personally prefer to decide on my own. I have a good cool cellar, I love aged wines, but now and then like to taste a bottle out of 6 or 12 young after bottling.

I also prefer to buy early and cheaper than later and more expensive.
Sure, we all have our preferences. Some of them are based on habit, though. I take it you don't object to those winemakers who bottle sometimes as much as a couple of years later than others. You let them decide when to put it in bottle acccording to their lights. If you don't like the result you don't buy it. If you think they are asking more than it's worth, you don't buy it, etc. This is really no different.
Jonathan,
I generally agreed with you, just quoted your reply ... no major differences.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#48 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 12th, 2019, 9:39 am

By the way, I have a particular reason to be happy about this decision at Chateau des Tours. I don't buy their wines in the US because the mark-up makes it not worth it to me. I buy it regularly at the domaine when I am here because, although the Vacqueyras is more expensive than most, given the quality, I think it a good deal. But I have no cellar in my house in the Rhone valley and have to drink what I buy right away. The ability to buy 10 year old wines is great for me. I have no idea how generalizable my situation is.

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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#49 Post by Gerhard P. » September 12th, 2019, 11:26 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 9:39 am
By the way, I have a particular reason to be happy about this decision at Chateau des Tours. I don't buy their wines in the US because the mark-up makes it not worth it to me. I buy it regularly at the domaine when I am here because, although the Vacqueyras is more expensive than most, given the quality, I think it a good deal. But I have no cellar in my house in the Rhone valley and have to drink what I buy right away. The ability to buy 10 year old wines is great for me. I have no idea how generalizable my situation is.
The 2012 (and now 2009) Is/will be far from mature in 3 years.
1999+2000 is nearly ready... 2004 accessable ...

Btw: the V. 2009 (some backfilling bottles received) was 30 € last week, the 2011 last year was (if I remember correctly) 27 €
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Re: Postponed releases - RAYAS, OGIER, MUGNIER etc.

#50 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 12th, 2019, 11:43 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 11:26 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 9:39 am
By the way, I have a particular reason to be happy about this decision at Chateau des Tours. I don't buy their wines in the US because the mark-up makes it not worth it to me. I buy it regularly at the domaine when I am here because, although the Vacqueyras is more expensive than most, given the quality, I think it a good deal. But I have no cellar in my house in the Rhone valley and have to drink what I buy right away. The ability to buy 10 year old wines is great for me. I have no idea how generalizable my situation is.
The 2012 (and now 2009) Is/will be far from mature in 3 years.
1999+2000 is nearly ready... 2004 accessable ...

Btw: the V. 2009 (some backfilling bottles received) was 30 € last week, the 2011 last year was (if I remember correctly) 27 €
Yes, those are the prices I paid. I am happy to be able to drink the 09 now. As I said, I don't have a cellar in Provence as I won't pay $75-80 in the US.

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