Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

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Mattstolz
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#51 Post by Mattstolz » September 10th, 2019, 3:24 am

Gus Siokis wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 5:37 pm


Off topic: I know you enjoy Y. Clerget’s wines and wanted to let you know, if you didn’t know already, he’s making a Corton Rognet in 2019.
not off topic at all! He is one of the stops I was considering reaching out to for a tasting anyways!
andrewz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:02 am
I did a trip similar to this in 2017 and we used an app called Rue des Vignerons to book many of our tastings throughout France. It worked really well, no one particularly well known but we enjoyed it. In Burgundy it was fun to meet some smaller producers that were willing to spend hours with us.

Here’s a link.

https://www.ruedesvignerons.com/en/
interesting! and thanks! will check it out!

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#52 Post by Gus Siokis » September 10th, 2019, 4:50 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 3:24 am
Gus Siokis wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 5:37 pm


Off topic: I know you enjoy Y. Clerget’s wines and wanted to let you know, if you didn’t know already, he’s making a Corton Rognet in 2019.
not off topic at all! He is one of the stops I was considering reaching out to for a tasting anyways!
andrewz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:02 am
I did a trip similar to this in 2017 and we used an app called Rue des Vignerons to book many of our tastings throughout France. It worked really well, no one particularly well known but we enjoyed it. In Burgundy it was fun to meet some smaller producers that were willing to spend hours with us.

Here’s a link.

https://www.ruedesvignerons.com/en/
interesting! and thanks! will check it out!
Are you active on social media, specifically IG?
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Howard Cooper
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#53 Post by Howard Cooper » September 10th, 2019, 5:26 am

andrewz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:02 am
I did a trip similar to this in 2017 and we used an app called Rue des Vignerons to book many of our tastings throughout France. It worked really well, no one particularly well known but we enjoyed it. In Burgundy it was fun to meet some smaller producers that were willing to spend hours with us.

Here’s a link.

https://www.ruedesvignerons.com/en/
An interesting producer that shows up on this list is Domaine Quivy in GC. On my first trip to Burgundy in 1984, we were young and did not know what we were doing or even do any advance planning. We stayed in Beaune in a hotel called Le Cep (still there) and they got us a cab driver who would drive us around for the day - at that time it cost about $50 for the day. We just stopped at places either that he knew or that I recognized (we drive by Robert Arnoux, for example, and I asked the guy to go in and see if we could taste there - things were a lot different in those days and they said yes). One of the places we went to was Domaine Quivy. Don't remember why - I think it was right around the corner or something from where we had lunch. I remember the wines being good. Fast forward a number of years and I am tasting wines on a Saturday afternoon in a wine store around 5-7 years ago and they have open for tasting a 2010 GC Corbeaux by them that was pretty good - bought a couple of bottles that I am aging. Don't know anything more about them, but reading their name made me nostalgic.
Howard

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#54 Post by Mattstolz » September 10th, 2019, 6:00 am

Gus Siokis wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:50 am
Mattstolz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 3:24 am


not off topic at all! He is one of the stops I was considering reaching out to for a tasting anyways!
andrewz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 1:02 am
I did a trip similar to this in 2017 and we used an app called Rue des Vignerons to book many of our tastings throughout France. It worked really well, no one particularly well known but we enjoyed it. In Burgundy it was fun to meet some smaller producers that were willing to spend hours with us.

Here’s a link.

https://www.ruedesvignerons.com/en/
interesting! and thanks! will check it out!
Are you active on social media, specifically IG?
I would say fairly active. Same handle as here.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#55 Post by Gus Siokis » September 10th, 2019, 6:49 am

If you haven't already, I would follow the Domaine and Thibaud......It's how found about his new wine and launch of his new website.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#56 Post by Mattstolz » September 10th, 2019, 2:51 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 10:37 am
This gives contact information for growers and merchants and tells who speaks English. Don't expect to see DRC listed here.

https://www.bourgogne-wines.com/our-exp ... ,9363.html

If you make an appointment somewhere, don't be late.
and to the small domaines bring a little gift, coffee, cheese, a bottle of a US wine, whatever.
I keep thinking back to this idea and I'm curious, do you normally bring something that relates to the winery you're going to, or that relates to home? e.g.: if I'm tasting in N. Rhone would you bring a bottle of domestic Syrah or do I bring mustard based BBQ sauce because Im from SC?

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#57 Post by Matthew King » September 10th, 2019, 4:06 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 2:51 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 10:37 am
This gives contact information for growers and merchants and tells who speaks English. Don't expect to see DRC listed here.

https://www.bourgogne-wines.com/our-exp ... ,9363.html

If you make an appointment somewhere, don't be late.
and to the small domaines bring a little gift, coffee, cheese, a bottle of a US wine, whatever.
I keep thinking back to this idea and I'm curious, do you normally bring something that relates to the winery you're going to, or that relates to home? e.g.: if I'm tasting in N. Rhone would you bring a bottle of domestic Syrah or do I bring mustard based BBQ sauce because Im from SC?
When I went, I brought little honeycombs filled with wild honey from Malibu. I think they appreciate something from your home and with a backstory ... Bringing wine is a hassle and they probably have enough wine in their life!

Here is a link to a story I did for the board about my first trip to Burgundy. Might be useful to other newbies planning a trip.

viewtopic.php?t=134397

I agree that you shouldn't get hung up on getting into see "name" producers. You can learn a lot from so-called secondary producers who have the time and inclination to get out in the fields with you and share their experiences and wisdom.

I had a fantastic time with Gilbert Hammel from Clos Varoilles, a winery I had never heard of before I got to Burgundy. We spent at least 2 hours with Gilbert, who was at turns philosophical and comical. His wife even arranged to have a case of his very good 10 Gevrey 1er cru VV shipped directly to my home at very reasonable prices.

I'd rather do that then beg for a perfunctory visit with a lieutenant at a board-darling house who is only there out of a sense of duty or arm-twisting from some ITB contact. But that's just me ...
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#58 Post by Howard Cooper » September 10th, 2019, 4:22 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 2:51 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 10:37 am
This gives contact information for growers and merchants and tells who speaks English. Don't expect to see DRC listed here.

https://www.bourgogne-wines.com/our-exp ... ,9363.html

If you make an appointment somewhere, don't be late.
and to the small domaines bring a little gift, coffee, cheese, a bottle of a US wine, whatever.
I keep thinking back to this idea and I'm curious, do you normally bring something that relates to the winery you're going to, or that relates to home? e.g.: if I'm tasting in N. Rhone would you bring a bottle of domestic Syrah or do I bring mustard based BBQ sauce because Im from SC?
I would hope that if you bring a mustard based BBQ sauce it would actually be from Georgia - https://www.johnnyharrisbbq.com/product/original-3-pk/ This is what I grew up with in Savannah and is still my favorite BBQ sauce. I actually brought a bottle to Blair Bethel from Domaine Dublere (he has recently sold the domaine) since he is from NC (although he is a dook fan).
Howard

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Gus Siokis
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#59 Post by Gus Siokis » September 10th, 2019, 4:33 pm

I, agree with Matthew K. We brought Georgia pecans since we do have the best in the world and it was something that is not really grown in France....As I mentioned earlier, maybe grits or heirloom carolina rice?
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#60 Post by Dave H. » September 10th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Do you *like* gamay?
You’re obviously passing right through Beaujolais if you go northern Rhône to burgundy. We tasted at a few places his summer and it was gorgeous and tourist free (except us.)
Paid 12 euro for a lengthy Thivin tasting and tour with about wines that we don’t see in the states and it was a major highlight for me.
Anyway, maybe not what you’re looking for but an easy and worthwhile diversion if you’re in the area.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#61 Post by Mattstolz » September 10th, 2019, 5:30 pm

Gus Siokis wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:33 pm
I, agree with Matthew K. We brought Georgia pecans since we do have the best in the world and it was something that is not really grown in France....As I mentioned earlier, maybe grits or heirloom carolina rice?
carolina gold rice is a great call. I liked the pecan idea you mentioned earlier. Greenville SC is the old textile capital of the south.... but thats not a very interesting gift. haha
Dave H. wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 5:27 pm
Do you *like* gamay?
You’re obviously passing right through Beaujolais if you go northern Rhône to burgundy. We tasted at a few places his summer and it was gorgeous and tourist free (except us.)
Paid 12 euro for a lengthy Thivin tasting and tour with about wines that we don’t see in the states and it was a major highlight for me.
Anyway, maybe not what you’re looking for but an easy and worthwhile diversion if you’re in the area.
I do like gamay. My only concern with spending a day in Beaujolais I'm sure is the reason why you were the only tourists there... we have 2.5 days in the area and its our first trip, so I can't imagine skipping the Cote or the Rhone.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#62 Post by alan weinberg » September 10th, 2019, 8:57 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 2:51 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:56 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 10:37 am
This gives contact information for growers and merchants and tells who speaks English. Don't expect to see DRC listed here.

https://www.bourgogne-wines.com/our-exp ... ,9363.html

If you make an appointment somewhere, don't be late.
and to the small domaines bring a little gift, coffee, cheese, a bottle of a US wine, whatever.
I keep thinking back to this idea and I'm curious, do you normally bring something that relates to the winery you're going to, or that relates to home? e.g.: if I'm tasting in N. Rhone would you bring a bottle of domestic Syrah or do I bring mustard based BBQ sauce because Im from SC?
I brought coffee I had personally roasted, Kentucky bourbon, domestic wine, and once brought some French cheese (Citeaux). Anything you have put a little thought into.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#63 Post by IlkkaL » September 10th, 2019, 10:10 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 6:58 am
Finally, even to the extent you cannot get into smaller growers, you can taste and buy wines from smaller producers in the Caveaus in various towns. The Caveau de Chassagne Montrachet is esp. good. http://www.caveaudechassagne.com/
This was unfortunately a disappointment for us when we visited in July. They had zero bottles available from the revered names - not even any reds from Ramonet could be purchased. I took the four wine tasting and without any exaggeration all four were downright uninspiring efforts. Fortunately they had a couple of Saint Aubins from Hubert Lamy on the list so I could purchase those and have the tasting fee waived. Bad timing perhaps?
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#64 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 4:43 am

If you are going to Burgundy so that you can taste wines from a very few "revered names", stay in your hotel during the day and sleep or something, go to one of a few restaurants that have those wines for lunch and dinner, and spend a lot of money drinking the wines.

That being said, on my last two trips to Burgundy, I have been able to buy red and white Ramonet from the Caveau de Chassagne Montrachet. There were limits on the numbers of whites I could buy and I only got them because I bought reds from them and other wines. And, one has to realize that 2016 was a disaster in much of Burgundy in terms of quantity of wines produced and a lot of producers only made a limited amount of 2016s. Who do you think is going to get the limited amount of 2016s, people who only are interested in a few revered names or people who also buy other wines?
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#65 Post by IlkkaL » September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 4:43 am
If you are going to Burgundy so that you can taste wines from "revered names", stay in your hotel during the day and sleep or something, go to one of a few restaurants that have those wines for lunch and dinner, and spend a lot of money drinking the wines.
Wow, someone seems to have an attitude.

I am by no means one to chase only the stars of the region. That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities. I believe you have yourself advertised the bottles of Ramonet you have found there but during our visit there were nothing like that to be found which I found surprising. I have no idea why you would feel the need to come back to me with an angry response like that when I just brought up how my experience in this shop was.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#66 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am

IlkkaL wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am
That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities.
I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.

Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
Howard

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#67 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am
IlkkaL wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am
That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities.
I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.

Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
This is what you are fundamentally misunderstanding, Howard. Folks that are going there for the first time are going there because of the "known quantities" and while I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.

My point is that they're not going to get that and they'd be better off thinking outside the box and heading somewhere else where wine tourism isn't such a thing. Burgundy isn't what it was even 10 years ago. It's flooded with tourists and you have to make reservations weeks in advance. It isn't the vigneron experience I think that people want and I wouldn't advise flying 5000 miles for it.

That said, the OP sounds like he has to check the Burgundy box while he's there. Your advice is as good as any, I suppose.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#68 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 6:36 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am
IlkkaL wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am
That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities.
I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.

Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
This is what you are fundamentally misunderstanding, Howard. Folks that are going there for the first time are going there because of the "known quantities" and while I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.

My point is that they're not going to get that and they'd be better off thinking outside the box and heading somewhere else where wine tourism isn't such a thing. Burgundy isn't what it was even 10 years ago. It's flooded with tourists and you have to make reservations weeks in advance. It isn't the vigneron experience I think that people want and I wouldn't advise flying 5000 miles for it.

That said, the OP sounds like he has to check the Burgundy box while he's there. Your advice is as good as any, I suppose.
I am not criticizing the OP. He seems to have reasonable expectations for his visit and I have given him a number of pieces of advice on this thread and by private messaging to provide him help with respect to a realistic visit where he can have a great time and taste excellent wines.

Where I have criticized others, it has been for suggesting to the OP that it is not worth going to Burgundy unless you can get into the trophy estates. I reject the idea that if you cannot taste Ramonet, Coche-Dury, DRC and Roumier (none of which I have ever visited) it is not worth going. In fact, I even stated the best way to taste their wines at prices much cheaper than one would find in the US - by going to restaurants with these wines on the list. Can you come up with a better way of tasting their wines? A few years ago I had Coche village Meursault for about 100 Euros at a restaurant in Pommard call Aupres du Clocher. You can get Raveneau grand crus for about 100 euros at a couple of restaurants in Chablis. Compare those prices to what you would find in the US. If you want to go to Burgundy just to drink trophies, please suggest a better way than what I suggested?

I am not sure what off-brand wines are. They are many, many under the radar producers in Burgundy that make excellent wine. And, I love visiting up and coming producers. It is the best way I know of to get top quality Burgundy at relatively reasonable prices. Notes on every Burgundy visit I have made since I started on this board are on this board for everyone to see how many of what you would call off-brand visits I have done over the years. These have been some of my favorite visits - especially, for example, visiting Domaine Dublere where I really have a great time talking with Blair Pethel. Unfortunately, he has sold his winery and no longer is in the business.

Do you think that producers like Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot, Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot and Lamy are off-brand producers? If so, I can understand why you don't like visiting Burgundy anymore? I have visited and tasted at a few of these places and found the experience thrilling. But, then I also am thrilled going to California and tasting at Ridge, Chateau Montelena, Stony Hill, etc., and do not say if I cannot taste at Screaming Eagle and Harlan it is not worth going.

Honestly, if I knew that all I could do was visit Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot and Oliver Leflaive (where I have not been), tour vineyards and eat in Burgundy (all of which should be easily doable), I would rather go there than to Macon, Beaujolais or even the Napa Valley. But, that is an individual choice for each person to make for themselves.
Howard

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#69 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 6:54 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:36 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am


I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.

Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
This is what you are fundamentally misunderstanding, Howard. Folks that are going there for the first time are going there because of the "known quantities" and while I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.

My point is that they're not going to get that and they'd be better off thinking outside the box and heading somewhere else where wine tourism isn't such a thing. Burgundy isn't what it was even 10 years ago. It's flooded with tourists and you have to make reservations weeks in advance. It isn't the vigneron experience I think that people want and I wouldn't advise flying 5000 miles for it.

That said, the OP sounds like he has to check the Burgundy box while he's there. Your advice is as good as any, I suppose.
I am not criticizing the OP and have given him a number of pieces of advice on this thread and by private messaging to provide him help with respect to a realistic visit where he can have a great time and taste excellent wines.

Where I have criticized others, it has been for suggesting to the OP that it is not worth going to Burgundy unless you can get into the trophy estates. I reject the idea that if you cannot taste Ramonet, Coche-Dury, DRC and Roumier (none of which I have ever visited) it is not worth going. In fact, I even stated the best way to taste their wines at prices much cheaper than one would find in the US - by going to restaurants with these wines on the list. Can you come up with a better way of tasting their wines? A few years ago I had Coche village Meursault for about 100 Euros at a restaurant in Pommard call Aupres du Clocher. You can get Raveneau grand crus for about 100 euros at a couple of restaurants in Chablis. Compare those prices to what you would find in the US. If you want to go to Burgundy just to drink trophies, please suggest a better way than what I suggested?

I am not sure what off-brand wines are. They are many, many under the radar producers in Burgundy that make excellent wine. And, I love visiting up and coming producers. It is the best way I know of to get top quality Burgundy at relatively reasonable prices. Notes on every Burgundy visit I have made since I started on this board are on this board for everyone to see how many of what you would call off-brand visits I have done over the years. These have been some of my favorite visits - especially, for example, visiting Domaine Dublere where I really have a great time talking with Blair Pethel. Unfortunately, he has sold his winery and no longer is in the business.

Do you think that producers like Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot, Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot and Lamy are off-brand producers? If so, I can understand why you don't like visiting Burgundy anymore? I have visited and tasted at a few of these places and found the experience thrilling. But, then I also am thrilled going to California and tasting at Ridge, Chateau Montelena, Stony Hill, etc., and do not say if I cannot taste at Screaming Eagle and Harlan it is not worth going.
Again, you are missing the point. I said that you were giving the OP good advice, see bold text above.

My point is that people want something closer that approximates what they read about here. They'd like to get in to Bernard Moreau, but as another poster noted, that wasn't possible. No one is talking about seeing Ramonet/Rousseau/Roumier/DRC, they're talking about seeing something a little more accessible but still balla. Like maybe Fourrier, I don't know. You've certainly been to places that are like that and your advice to people is to not be disappointed if you don't get in to see Hubert Lamy, you can go visit Bubba Lamy and it'll be just as good. I think that completely misses the point.

There is a difference between drinking the wines at a restaurant (that can be done all over France, and is often cheaper and with a deeper selection of wines*) it is about being in situ and feeling like you are being a part of something and understanding it a little more.

Generally, if you are just getting started now and you don't have some kind of big industry pull, you're probably SOL and you're better off somewhere else or paying up for the Wasserman tour.

Update: Looks like Neal is doing them now: https://www.madrosejourneys.com/journey ... er-section it's expensive ($7800 pp), but sounds cool.

*I do most of my approximation of "baller" Burgundy drinking outside of Burgundy for precisely this reason.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#70 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 7:01 am

I have no industry pull whatsoever (I am a retired attorney and have never had a store arrange a visit for me) and have a great time in Burgundy every time I visit. I have one friend who has been going for years and is friends with a few producers, but on most of my trips at least half of the visits are to producers that I originally just emailed (or contacted through Facebook) or called on the phone and asked if we could come visit. As I said, if I knew that all I could do was visit Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot and Oliver Leflaive (where I have not been), tour vineyards and eat in Burgundy (all of which should be easily doable), I would rather go there than to Macon, Beaujolais or even the Napa Valley. But, you can make other choices.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#71 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 7:13 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:54 am


Update: Looks like Neal is doing them now: https://www.madrosejourneys.com/journey ... er-section it's expensive ($7800 pp), but sounds cool.

That link is helpful. Thanks. I really am not interested for Burgundy (I like being on my own there), but I have never been to the Piedmont, don't know my way around there and this looks like an interesting way to do that.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#72 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 7:34 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:01 am
I have no industry pull whatsoever (I am a retired attorney and have never had a store arrange a visit for me) and have a great time in Burgundy every time I visit. I have one friend who has been going for years and is friends with a few producers, but on most of my trips at least half of the visits are to producers that I originally just emailed (or contacted through Facebook) or called on the phone and asked if we could come visit. As I said, if I knew that all I could do was visit Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot and Oliver Leflaive (where I have not been), tour vineyards and eat in Burgundy (all of which should be easily doable), I would rather go there than to Macon, Beaujolais or even the Napa Valley. But, you can make other choices.
You didn't read what I wrote, bold text for clarity:
Generally, if you are just getting started now and you don't have some kind of big industry pull, you're probably SOL and you're better off somewhere else or paying up for the Wasserman tour.
You've been going for years and have relationships, someone starting from scratch will have a tougher time. That's great that some other trips started on social media. Did you get into any "board darling" producers via email/call/social media? I'd be pretty shocked if you did.

I have and do make other choices, but we have different objectives and priorities. To each their own.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#73 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 7:35 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:13 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:54 am


Update: Looks like Neal is doing them now: https://www.madrosejourneys.com/journey ... er-section it's expensive ($7800 pp), but sounds cool.

That link is helpful. Thanks. I really am not interested for Burgundy (I like being on my own there), but I have never been to the Piedmont, don't know my way around there and this looks like an interesting way to do that.
Piedmont is starting to be lame for many of the same reasons as Burgundy. I'd hit the Valle D'Aosta.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#74 Post by Mattstolz » September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:54 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 6:36 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am


This is what you are fundamentally misunderstanding, Howard. Folks that are going there for the first time are going there because of the "known quantities" and while I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.

My point is that they're not going to get that and they'd be better off thinking outside the box and heading somewhere else where wine tourism isn't such a thing. Burgundy isn't what it was even 10 years ago. It's flooded with tourists and you have to make reservations weeks in advance. It isn't the vigneron experience I think that people want and I wouldn't advise flying 5000 miles for it.

That said, the OP sounds like he has to check the Burgundy box while he's there. Your advice is as good as any, I suppose.
I am not criticizing the OP and have given him a number of pieces of advice on this thread and by private messaging to provide him help with respect to a realistic visit where he can have a great time and taste excellent wines.

Where I have criticized others, it has been for suggesting to the OP that it is not worth going to Burgundy unless you can get into the trophy estates. I reject the idea that if you cannot taste Ramonet, Coche-Dury, DRC and Roumier (none of which I have ever visited) it is not worth going. In fact, I even stated the best way to taste their wines at prices much cheaper than one would find in the US - by going to restaurants with these wines on the list. Can you come up with a better way of tasting their wines? A few years ago I had Coche village Meursault for about 100 Euros at a restaurant in Pommard call Aupres du Clocher. You can get Raveneau grand crus for about 100 euros at a couple of restaurants in Chablis. Compare those prices to what you would find in the US. If you want to go to Burgundy just to drink trophies, please suggest a better way than what I suggested?

I am not sure what off-brand wines are. They are many, many under the radar producers in Burgundy that make excellent wine. And, I love visiting up and coming producers. It is the best way I know of to get top quality Burgundy at relatively reasonable prices. Notes on every Burgundy visit I have made since I started on this board are on this board for everyone to see how many of what you would call off-brand visits I have done over the years. These have been some of my favorite visits - especially, for example, visiting Domaine Dublere where I really have a great time talking with Blair Pethel. Unfortunately, he has sold his winery and no longer is in the business.

Do you think that producers like Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot, Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot and Lamy are off-brand producers? If so, I can understand why you don't like visiting Burgundy anymore? I have visited and tasted at a few of these places and found the experience thrilling. But, then I also am thrilled going to California and tasting at Ridge, Chateau Montelena, Stony Hill, etc., and do not say if I cannot taste at Screaming Eagle and Harlan it is not worth going.
Again, you are missing the point. I said that you were giving the OP good advice, see bold text above.

My point is that people want something closer that approximates what they read about here. They'd like to get in to Bernard Moreau, but as another poster noted, that wasn't possible. No one is talking about seeing Ramonet/Rousseau/Roumier/DRC, they're talking about seeing something a little more accessible but still balla. Like maybe Fourrier, I don't know. You've certainly been to places that are like that and your advice to people is to not be disappointed if you don't get in to see Hubert Lamy, you can go visit Bubba Lamy and it'll be just as good. I think that completely misses the point.

There is a difference between drinking the wines at a restaurant (that can be done all over France, and is often cheaper and with a deeper selection of wines*) it is about being in situ and feeling like you are being a part of something and understanding it a little more.

Generally, if you are just getting started now and you don't have some kind of big industry pull, you're probably SOL and you're better off somewhere else or paying up for the Wasserman tour.

Update: Looks like Neal is doing them now: https://www.madrosejourneys.com/journey ... er-section it's expensive ($7800 pp), but sounds cool.

*I do most of my approximation of "baller" Burgundy drinking outside of Burgundy for precisely this reason.
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#75 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.
It was with precisely the bold text in mind that I gave the advice that I did. However, in another post you mentioned that you couldn't imagine being that close to Burgundy and not going to see it.

This quote reads like box checking (I'm ignoring the dismissive tone towards the Beaujolais, which is much more interesting in terms of farming and producers):
I do like gamay. My only concern with spending a day in Beaujolais I'm sure is the reason why you were the only tourists there... we have 2.5 days in the area and its our first trip, so I can't imagine skipping the Cote or the Rhone.
Would you be happy with Bubba Lamy instead of Hubert? What wines do you love where you really want to meet the producer?

Also, you should know that Burgundy is nice enough, but it isn't the most picturesque spot. At the end, you should do what you want but if I only had a few days and my wife was with me, I'd spend it the my way and not Howard's way. To that point, if you go my way, you are more likely to take a walk in the vineyards maybe have lunch, that kind of stuff. Not just tasting through a wine line-up and talking about the harvest details of each plot, the vine age, the same 5 things.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#76 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 7:59 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:34 am
Did you get into any "board darling" producers via email/call/social media? I'd be pretty shocked if you did.

Yes. Several.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#77 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 8:03 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:59 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:34 am
Did you get into any "board darling" producers via email/call/social media? I'd be pretty shocked if you did.

Yes. Several.
Who?
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#78 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 8:04 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:35 am


Piedmont is starting to be lame for many of the same reasons as Burgundy. I'd hit the Valle D'Aosta.
Your priority obviously is to get into the choicest producers at lesser regions. I would rather visit the areas where they make wines I drink on a regular basis. Each to his own.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#79 Post by John Morris » September 11th, 2019, 8:08 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.
That's a great attitude! [cheers.gif]

The only risk is that you acquire a sentimental attachment to some second-rate wines because of a wonderful experience. And worse things could happen.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#80 Post by Mattstolz » September 11th, 2019, 8:30 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.
It was with precisely the bold text in mind that I gave the advice that I did. However, in another post you mentioned that you couldn't imagine being that close to Burgundy and not going to see it.

This quote reads like box checking (I'm ignoring the dismissive tone towards the Beaujolais, which is much more interesting in terms of farming and producers):
I do like gamay. My only concern with spending a day in Beaujolais I'm sure is the reason why you were the only tourists there... we have 2.5 days in the area and its our first trip, so I can't imagine skipping the Cote or the Rhone.
Would you be happy with Bubba Lamy instead of Hubert? What wines do you love where you really want to meet the producer?

Also, you should know that Burgundy is nice enough, but it isn't the most picturesque spot. At the end, you should do what you want but if I only had a few days and my wife was with me, I'd spend it the my way and not Howard's way. To that point, if you go my way, you are more likely to take a walk in the vineyards maybe have lunch, that kind of stuff. Not just tasting through a wine line-up and talking about the harvest details of each plot, the vine age, the same 5 things.
I think this is getting to be a far more confrontational exchange than I want, but yeah if Bubba Lamy was a friendly, knowledgeable person that was happy to spend time with me and help me get to know burgundy better, absolutely. I know lots of great Bubbas, I’m from SC.

As for dismissing Beaujolais: I actually drink more Bojo than burgundy. But my highest high in bojo just doesn’t come close to the highest high of burgundy experience. A place (not a producer) that can give me that experience is something I prefer to see. But I recognize everyone will have a different opinion on this and I may even be in the minority. To each their own.
John Morris wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:08 am
[quote=Mattstolz post_id=2807823 time=<a href="tel:1568212837">1568212837</a> user_id=22480]
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.
That's a great attitude! [cheers.gif]

The only risk is that you acquire a sentimental attachment to some second-rate wines because of a wonderful experience. And worse things could happen.
[/quote]

I can think of few things better than falling in love with a less expensive burg. Haha!

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#81 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 8:31 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:04 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:35 am


Piedmont is starting to be lame for many of the same reasons as Burgundy. I'd hit the Valle D'Aosta.
Your priority obviously is to get into the choicest producers at lesser regions. I would rather visit the areas where they make wines I drink on a regular basis. Each to his own.
Not exactly. Do you think that is really a fair characterization as dismissive as it is? I think that you just want to be the guy that goes to Burgundy and Piedmont no matter what because you have a low bar for the experience. Does that sound fair?

We go to places of the wines we drink and to visit friends we've made along the way. Last trip was to the Alto Piedmont in April. Wonderful wines, feeling like we are really in on the ground floor. Met almost all of the producers we drink regularly. Spent a lot of time with Cristiano Garella. Probably won't go back for any extended period as it isn't particularly picturesque and lacked cultural interest. My wife was bored silly after a while.

I've been to Piedmont many times and visited the producers that make up the bulk of my Piedmont cellar. It's a wonderful place with better food than the Alto Piedmont, for sure. You can still get in to see lots of very good growers; however, you don't get the same personal touch that you used to and it's crawling with tourists.

The Valle D'Aosta I stunningly beautiful and the wines are more and more interesting. It's probably my next Italy trip if I can convince my wife that there will be enough beauty and culture.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#82 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 8:33 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:30 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am
OP here. Wanted to throw my thought out. Even based on what you have said, I don’t feel SOL. You mentioned I’m not shooting for a DRC or a Roumier, but I’m also OK if it’s not a Meo Camuzet or a Hudelot Noellat (although I’d love it if that worked). I would rather spend some time and learn from someone who is excited to have visitors and isn’t a known name then leave with a bunch of bottles I can impress my friends with when I get home.

As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.
It was with precisely the bold text in mind that I gave the advice that I did. However, in another post you mentioned that you couldn't imagine being that close to Burgundy and not going to see it.

This quote reads like box checking (I'm ignoring the dismissive tone towards the Beaujolais, which is much more interesting in terms of farming and producers):
I do like gamay. My only concern with spending a day in Beaujolais I'm sure is the reason why you were the only tourists there... we have 2.5 days in the area and its our first trip, so I can't imagine skipping the Cote or the Rhone.
Would you be happy with Bubba Lamy instead of Hubert? What wines do you love where you really want to meet the producer?

Also, you should know that Burgundy is nice enough, but it isn't the most picturesque spot. At the end, you should do what you want but if I only had a few days and my wife was with me, I'd spend it the my way and not Howard's way. To that point, if you go my way, you are more likely to take a walk in the vineyards maybe have lunch, that kind of stuff. Not just tasting through a wine line-up and talking about the harvest details of each plot, the vine age, the same 5 things.
I think this is getting to be a far more confrontational exchange than I want, but yeah if Bubba Lamy was a friendly, knowledgeable person that was happy to spend time with me and help me get to know burgundy better, absolutely. I know lots of great Bubbas, I’m from SC.

As for dismissing Beaujolais: I actually drink more Bojo than burgundy. But my highest high in bojo just doesn’t come close to the highest high of burgundy experience. A place (not a producer) that can give me that experience is something I prefer to see. But I recognize everyone will have a different opinion on this and I may even be in the minority. To each their own.
I blame Howard and his secret Dookiness. I'll let it go.

No worries, I'm sure you'll have a great time.
Last edited by Nathan V. on September 11th, 2019, 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#83 Post by Mark Y » September 11th, 2019, 8:35 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:03 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:59 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:34 am
Did you get into any "board darling" producers via email/call/social media? I'd be pretty shocked if you did.

Yes. Several.
Who?
It is possible. I did too and I have 0 connections when I went. I just emailed. Not drc/Rousseau but pretty big names. Not naming them but just that it’s possible.
Note this was 3 years ago and I know burgundy changes rapidly.

Will add; both of the “big names” I got in was because an industry visit by someone else coincided. And I had to go at that day/time. So I got lucky. But still just over email.
Y.e.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#84 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 8:36 am

Mark Y wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:35 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:03 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:59 am


Yes. Several.
Who?
It is possible. I did too and I have 0 connections when I went. I just emailed. Not drc/Rousseau but pretty big names. Not naming them but just that it’s possible.
Note this was 3 years ago and I know burgundy changes rapidly.

Will add; both of the “big names” I got in was because an industry visit by someone else coincided. And I had to go at that day/time. So I got lucky. But still just over email.
Whatever. Without names, it doesn't help the OP.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#85 Post by Mark Y » September 11th, 2019, 9:01 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:36 am

Whatever. Without names, it doesn't help the OP.
Sure it does.. it's an anecdotal data point that tells the OP that emailing folks can get lucky and to not stop trying..

which is more help than what you have provided so far, which is to 1. bash Howard, and 2. tell the OP not to bother going.

yah, thanks for coming
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#86 Post by Alan Rath » September 11th, 2019, 9:06 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am
I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.
I would go to Burgundy if I couldn't visit any producers at all. That's how lovely it is, how good the food is, how available great wines are in restaurants. Someone else might prefer sitting on the beach, I prefer walking through vineyards and ancient little towns, eating and drinking very well. Every producer visit is a bonus on top of that.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#87 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 9:08 am

Mark Y wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:01 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 8:36 am

Whatever. Without names, it doesn't help the OP.
Sure it does.. it's an anecdotal data point that tells the OP that emailing folks can get lucky and to not stop trying..

which is more help than what you have provided so far, which is to 1. bash Howard, and 2. tell the OP not to bother going.

yah, thanks for coming
Not helpful if you don't tell him who. Maybe he wants to see the same folks.

Howard and I are fine, we're having a disagreement. Last I checked that was OK and neither of us are calling names.

If you were actually paying attention, you'd probably find my advice very valuable. I've got a bit of experience with all of this, but you're probably a box checker. Good luck!
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#88 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 9:10 am

Alan Rath wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:06 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am
I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.
I would go to Burgundy if I couldn't visit any producers at all. That's how lovely it is, how good the food is, how available great wines are in restaurants. Someone else might prefer sitting on the beach, I prefer walking through vineyards and ancient little towns, eating and drinking very well. Every producer visit is a bonus on top of that.
That's weird. It's not really that picturesque compared to other places and their are plenty of better places to eat and drink. Nobody said anything about a beach. I prefer mountains anyway.

Good for you though!
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#89 Post by Greg K » September 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Would you be happy with Bubba Lamy instead of Hubert? What wines do you love where you really want to meet the producer?

Also, you should know that Burgundy is nice enough, but it isn't the most picturesque spot. At the end, you should do what you want but if I only had a few days and my wife was with me, I'd spend it the my way and not Howard's way. To that point, if you go my way, you are more likely to take a walk in the vineyards maybe have lunch, that kind of stuff. Not just tasting through a wine line-up and talking about the harvest details of each plot, the vine age, the same 5 things.
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Piedmont is starting to be lame for many of the same reasons as Burgundy. I'd hit the Valle D'Aosta.
These posts exhibit some of my least favorite parts of loving wine - the few people who have been in the business for a long time, are annoyed at people they perceive as "checking the box" and smugly inform you that the hot new place to go is Region X from where you don't even drink the wines. FFS.

The reason Burgundy is "starting to be lame" is because it's great. It's the same reason Paris has so many tourists. They're amazing places to visit. Their joy may have faded for you, because you've been enough times, but I was just there in May (not for the first time) and it was great, as always. The food is very good (Ferme de la Ruchotte is a really cool experience), the wines on some lists are great chances to try things and you end up talking to some very fun people just sitting next to you and while meeting producers. It's also quite pretty, especially once you realize you can just drive right next to grand cru vineyards because.....why not?
Do you not see the irony of telling someone who's never been to Piedmont that you no longer think it's cool because you no longer get the super hands on treatment from all the producers whom you've been collecting?

Nor is it remotely as difficult to get into serious producers in Burgundy as you suggest. Since you seem to want names - fine. I emailed Lafarge who were very nice and let me and my ex share an appointment with a few other people. We had a lovely time, I had a nice chat with him (including about some recent bottles of Lafarge I've drank) and he personally showed us the Clos de Chateau de Ducs. It was absolutely lovely and I got in because I sent an email early enough and told them how much I enjoyed the wines. That's it. The visit was awesome, his wines are great.
Also, "industry connections" are often, as much as anything else, emailing a couple of people or a few stores you shop at to get a bit of help. Unless you really are looking for DRC, it's not an insurmountable task.

So in short, to the OP - ignore the negativity. If you don't want to go to Beaujolais, don't go! Burgundy (and the Northern Rhone) is great. You'll have a great time, and even if you don't see the producers whose wines you love you'll really enjoy it anyway.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#90 Post by Mark Y » September 11th, 2019, 9:44 am

Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:08 am

Not helpful if you don't tell him who. Maybe he wants to see the same folks.

Howard and I are fine, we're having a disagreement. Last I checked that was OK and neither of us are calling names.

If you were actually paying attention, you'd probably find my advice very valuable. I've got a bit of experience with all of this, but you're probably a box checker. Good luck!
It's not helpful to tell him 2 names where i got in b/c i specified that i got lucky.. they didn't open up for ME. so I believe it's helpful to tell him to keep trying, and spread the net wide and that it's possible just via email..
what's not helpful in a thread about tasting in Burgundy, is to say you wouldn't fly 5000 miles to go there.

I don't even know what a box checker is.. so you're probably wrong.. again.. but that hasn't stopped you so far.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#91 Post by Markus S » September 11th, 2019, 9:47 am

Greg K wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
These posts exhibit some of my least favorite parts of loving wine - the few people who have been in the business for a long time, are annoyed at people they perceive as "checking the box" and smugly inform you that the hot new place to go is Region X from where you don't even drink the wines. FFS.
[not to you,Greg, but to those who think you shouldn't visit an area because it's 'no longer cool']
I think we should simply argue that ITB-types are simply a PITA. There's no excuse to avoid an area because You are jaded. You've already been there. This person hasn't. Let them travel to their Mecca.
Last edited by Markus S on September 11th, 2019, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#92 Post by Keith A k e r s » September 11th, 2019, 9:48 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:40 am
As far as a checking the burgundy box thing goes: I don’t think that’s exactly it. Mostly, I just want to learn about wines that I love and I think the best way to do that is learn the culture that makes them. I can’t afford balla bottles and can only afford some of the major board darlings on very rare occasions. Would rather make a connection than check a box.

that, imo is the most important part and what truly matters. Also, with enough head time and planning, you'll be able to get into many places that you would like to go to with just being polite and excited about the wines and possible experience.


edit: and absolutely be sure to look on google when the French holidays fall. It caught me off guard a few years back and they take their holidays very seriously [cheers.gif]

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#93 Post by Mark Y » September 11th, 2019, 9:55 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:48 am
that, imo is the most important part and what truly matters. Also, with enough head time and planning, you'll be able to get into many places that you would like to go to with just being polite and excited about the wines and possible experience.
+111111
Markus S wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:47 am
Let them travel to their Mecca.
Precisely. Agree comletely. Saying "there are more picturesque places" than Burgundy just sounds douchey.
There are nicely temples than the Golden Temple in Amritsar.. More elaborate churches than the Vatican.. I mean what's 'best', or 'most xyz'? so we shouldn't go somewhere b/c it's not the 'best'?

Oh and the irony of turning around and calling other people 'box checkers' whatever that means? comical.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#94 Post by Greg K » September 11th, 2019, 9:59 am

Markus S wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:47 am
Greg K wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
These posts exhibit some of my least favorite parts of loving wine - the few people who have been in the business for a long time, are annoyed at people they perceive as "checking the box" and smugly inform you that the hot new place to go is Region X from where you don't even drink the wines. FFS.
[not to you,Greg, but to those who think you shouldn't visit an area because it's 'no longer cool']
I think we should simply argue that ITB-types are simply a PITA. There's no excuse to avoid an area because You are jaded. You've already been there. This person hasn't. Let them travel to their Mecca.
To be fair, I don't think it's all ITB people at all - most realize the perspective of someone who isn't a professional.

I understand that for ITB people, who do this for a living, drinking the same stuff all the time can become somewhat boring (which is why ITB people are, from my experience, much more excited about natural wines - they're different!), so they're likely to seek out newer things. But for those of us who are wine "civilians" that's just not the case. I simply don't have the time, energy or money to grow bored of Barolo or Burgundy.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#95 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 10:01 am

Greg K wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Would you be happy with Bubba Lamy instead of Hubert? What wines do you love where you really want to meet the producer?

Also, you should know that Burgundy is nice enough, but it isn't the most picturesque spot. At the end, you should do what you want but if I only had a few days and my wife was with me, I'd spend it the my way and not Howard's way. To that point, if you go my way, you are more likely to take a walk in the vineyards maybe have lunch, that kind of stuff. Not just tasting through a wine line-up and talking about the harvest details of each plot, the vine age, the same 5 things.
Nathan V. wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 7:52 am
Piedmont is starting to be lame for many of the same reasons as Burgundy. I'd hit the Valle D'Aosta.
These posts exhibit some of my least favorite parts of loving wine - the few people who have been in the business for a long time, are annoyed at people they perceive as "checking the box" and smugly inform you that the hot new place to go is Region X from where you don't even drink the wines. FFS.

The reason Burgundy is "starting to be lame" is because it's great. It's the same reason Paris has so many tourists. They're amazing places to visit. Their joy may have faded for you, because you've been enough times, but I was just there in May (not for the first time) and it was great, as always. The food is very good (Ferme de la Ruchotte is a really cool experience), the wines on some lists are great chances to try things and you end up talking to some very fun people just sitting next to you and while meeting producers. It's also quite pretty, especially once you realize you can just drive right next to grand cru vineyards because.....why not?
Do you not see the irony of telling someone who's never been to Piedmont that you no longer think it's cool because you no longer get the super hands on treatment from all the producers whom you've been collecting?

Nor is it remotely as difficult to get into serious producers in Burgundy as you suggest. Since you seem to want names - fine. I emailed Lafarge who were very nice and let me and my ex share an appointment with a few other people. We had a lovely time, I had a nice chat with him (including about some recent bottles of Lafarge I've drank) and he personally showed us the Clos de Chateau de Ducs. It was absolutely lovely and I got in because I sent an email early enough and told them how much I enjoyed the wines. That's it. The visit was awesome, his wines are great.
Also, "industry connections" are often, as much as anything else, emailing a couple of people or a few stores you shop at to get a bit of help. Unless you really are looking for DRC, it's not an insurmountable task.

So in short, to the OP - ignore the negativity. If you don't want to go to Beaujolais, don't go! Burgundy (and the Northern Rhone) is great. You'll have a great time, and even if you don't see the producers whose wines you love you'll really enjoy it anyway.
Thanks for giving an actual name. Lafarge is awesome and someone I would have thought was a hard get and that sounds like a great visit. I guess I was wrong about that.

There isn't irony about my Piedmont remarks. It is simply this, if you go where everyone else is going you're experience is less likely to be a good one. When I started going to the Piedmont, the wines were cheap and plentiful. Nothing was allocated. Places like the Beaujolais which are similarly as beautiful as the Piedmont the wines are mostly plentiful (although starting to get allocated I expect that to escalate with 2018) you are more likely to have a good experience. If you are super passionate about Burgundy, and only Burgundy will do, then the advice you and Howard give seems good enough to me.

Look forward to reading about Matt's trip.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#96 Post by Nathan V. » September 11th, 2019, 10:03 am

Mark Y wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:55 am
Keith A k e r s wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:48 am
that, imo is the most important part and what truly matters. Also, with enough head time and planning, you'll be able to get into many places that you would like to go to with just being polite and excited about the wines and possible experience.
+111111
Markus S wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:47 am
Let them travel to their Mecca.
Precisely. Agree comletely. Saying "there are more picturesque places" than Burgundy just sounds douchey.
There are nicely temples than the Golden Temple in Amritsar.. More elaborate churches than the Vatican.. I mean what's 'best', or 'most xyz'? so we shouldn't go somewhere b/c it's not the 'best'?

Oh and the irony of turning around and calling other people 'box checkers' whatever that means? comical.
I hated the Vatican. Too many people. Too much blood money.
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#97 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 11th, 2019, 11:48 am

The Vatican does have the Sistine chapel. There are too many people, but there's no substitute for seeing it. I would, however happily tell people not to bother with the crowds around the Mona Lisa when the Veronese Wedding at Cana is just on the other wall and no one is getting on the way. I have no idea how this translates to going to Birgundy.

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#98 Post by Howard Cooper » September 11th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Greg K wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
The food is very good (Ferme de la Ruchotte is a really cool experience), the wines on some lists are great chances to try things and you end up talking to some very fun people just sitting next to you and while meeting producers. It's also quite pretty, especially once you realize you can just drive right next to grand cru vineyards because.....why not?
Getting back to the purpose of this thread, I think a key is not to forget the food in a rush to hit the hottest producer you can find.

I love eating at restaurants in Burgundy and some of my favorites can be relatively inexpensive. I tried two restaurants that were new to me on my trip last year. One was an established wine bar with simple food that I just loved (esp. the poached eggs with truffles) and a wine list the size of a book. http://www.maisonducolombier.com/#!home Frankly, you can find wines there in any type of price range. I tried wines from two producers that I had heard of but had not tried before - Duroche and Maison Theriet. The wine from Thiriet was a regional wine (she is just getting started http://grandcruselections.com/maison-mc-thiriet ) but it was quite good and resulted in a couple of neat experiences for me. First, it turns out that the sommelier at the wine bar is a friend of hers and he was very excited when I ordered the wine - it was fun discussing her with him. Then, last March I met Camille Thiriet at the Paulee Grand Tasting and was able to discuss with her my experience tasting her wine in Burgundy. Neat.

The other restaurant I really enjoyed is I think a newer restaurant or at least a restaurant with newer ownership. https://www.decanter.com/learn/food/res ... ne-343148/ This is a young husband and wife team where the husband is a talented chef and the wife handles the front of the house. They did a great job. But again, an anecdote. We ordered a white Burgundy from a young producer named Heitz-Lochardet. Again, we got a smile when we ordered the wine as Armand Heitz apparently is friends with the couple, or at least the wife. So, again it was a very neat experience being there, talking with her and having a great bottle of white Burgundy.

Have special experiences where you find them, no matter where you are. Forget the people who are jaded with life and for whom its DRC, Chave, Renaldi or bust. Focus on the possible and not the impossible and have a great time. Virtually wherever you are in Burgundy (or the Rhone, etc.), most of the world would gladly trade places with you while you are there.
Howard

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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#99 Post by Matt Mauldin » September 11th, 2019, 8:29 pm

Good luck in your planning, Matt. Gus posted a link above to my recent trip post - there's some (hopefully valuable) info therein. I got a lot of my info and inspiration from some of Howard's posts in the past... lots of good info on this board.

Howard's post above is very true - I'd done Burgundy and the Rhone in the past but this go-round we truly carved out a lot of space for dining, and had some great experiences. I can't recommend La Lune in Beaune enough.

I email producers 2-3 months in advance. In Burgundy I shoot for 1 or 2 prized producers, a lot of underappreciated or emerging, and supplement with tours or experiences at larger houses (I've had good experiences with Drouhin, Bouchard and Olivier LeFlaive). In the Rhone it's a little easier to get appointments across the board. I've also used the Rue de Vignerons site - it is very convenient when you find a producer of interest on it. I work in the wine business, but don't call in favors for appointments - I'm DIY!

Looking forward to one day reading about your trip!
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Re: Tasting in Burgundy/Rhone

#100 Post by IlkkaL » September 12th, 2019, 1:14 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am
IlkkaL wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am
That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities.
I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.

Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
So a misunderstanding/-communication in other words. I would have been tremendously happy to find wines from the likes of Bernard Moreau or Heitz-Lochardet there but, alas, such names were nowhere to be found and therefore I found my visit to this shop disappointing as buying totally blindly is not my thing and the small tasting samples from the tiny glasses were of no help. For you to assume that I "only know a few names" and go around asking for them feels quite rude to be honest. I really don't understand why you managed to find my post so insulting. If you think that my comment was an attack against your recommendation that was by no means my intention.

Maybe my wording (revered) was less than perfect but by no means did I walk in there looking for something like PYCM or Coche which I know to be "dead at retail". For your information I've been going to Burgundy since 2013 and I am not one looking to cherry pick only the hottest items - I've enjoyed every visit tremendously and always found nice things (in shops) from many producers that I have learned about on this forum, while then enjoying the trophy stuff in the restaurants. On this last trip I happened to buy extremely happily wines from producers like Sylvie Esmonin, Pierre Gelin, the aforementioned Hubert Lamy and Bernard Dugat-Py. However as I did not find similar known-yet-not-trophy producers (besides Lamy, although only Saint Aubins, no Chassagne) in this particular shop I did find it disappointing - do you really think this is totally unfair of me? Had I had your experience I would not be complaining whatsoever. Maybe it's just that you don't see other people's experiences and views as valuable or important as your own?
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