Nathan V. wrote: ↑
September 11th, 2019, 5:55 am
Howard Cooper wrote: ↑
September 11th, 2019, 5:06 am
IlkkaL wrote: ↑
September 11th, 2019, 4:54 am
That said this particular shop had very little to offer when it comes to any kind of known quantities.
I occasionally get a list of the wines that the Caveau has sent to me by email. The last time I got one (in June), it listed whites as being in stock from Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot, and a number of other very well known wine producers. Look, I don't care if you go there again or if anyone else ever goes to Burgundy. I would be better off if fewer people on this board go to Burgundy as it would make it easier for me to get appointments and find wines to buy. But, your post is just silly on its face - they have no wines from "known quantities" yet you are able to buy wines from Lamy, an outstanding producer who is very well known.
Yes, I bought Ramonet. But, that was after I was told that they did not have any. When I bought other wines from them, all of a sudden they had some Ramonet to sell me. That is the way at stores in Burgundy. They do not jack up prices for wines from "revered names" as in the US. But, you don't get to cherry pick. They have no stock of "revered names" for people who only know a very few names and are only interested in them. On future trips to Burgundy, as I said above, I recommend you go to one of a few restaurants around where you can buy producers like Coche off the list and forget about going into wine stores. You will always be disappointed.
This is what you are fundamentally misunderstanding, Howard. Folks that are going there for the first time are going there because of the "known quantities" and while I don't think they are so unrealistic as to think they'll get the Holmes experience (who I believe is ITB) they are looking for some loose approximation of it, not a collection of off-brand wines and potential up-and-comers. I don't think it's fair for you to criticize folks for wanting that since you've had that experience. If you're honest, you wouldn't be going back to Burgundy over and over if you hadn't.
My point is that they're not going to get that and they'd be better off thinking outside the box and heading somewhere else where wine tourism isn't such a thing. Burgundy isn't what it was even 10 years ago. It's flooded with tourists and you have to make reservations weeks in advance. It isn't the vigneron experience I think that people want and I wouldn't advise flying 5000 miles for it.
That said, the OP sounds like he has to check the Burgundy box while he's there. Your advice is as good as any, I suppose.
I am not criticizing the OP. He seems to have reasonable expectations for his visit and I have given him a number of pieces of advice on this thread and by private messaging to provide him help with respect to a realistic visit where he can have a great time and taste excellent wines.
Where I have criticized others, it has been for suggesting to the OP that it is not worth going to Burgundy unless you can get into the trophy estates. I reject the idea that if you cannot taste Ramonet, Coche-Dury, DRC and Roumier (none of which I have ever visited) it is not worth going. In fact, I even stated the best way to taste their wines at prices much cheaper than one would find in the US - by going to restaurants with these wines on the list. Can you come up with a better way of tasting their wines? A few years ago I had Coche village Meursault for about 100 Euros at a restaurant in Pommard call Aupres du Clocher. You can get Raveneau grand crus for about 100 euros at a couple of restaurants in Chablis. Compare those prices to what you would find in the US. If you want to go to Burgundy just to drink trophies, please suggest a better way than what I suggested?
I am not sure what off-brand wines are. They are many, many under the radar producers in Burgundy that make excellent wine. And, I love visiting up and coming producers. It is the best way I know of to get top quality Burgundy at relatively reasonable prices. Notes on every Burgundy visit I have made since I started on this board are on this board for everyone to see how many of what you would call off-brand visits I have done over the years. These have been some of my favorite visits - especially, for example, visiting Domaine Dublere where I really have a great time talking with Blair Pethel. Unfortunately, he has sold his winery and no longer is in the business.
Do you think that producers like Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot, Bernard Moreau, Heitz-Lochardet, Joseph Colin, Marc Colin, Bruno Colin, Phillipe Colin, Pillot and Lamy are off-brand producers? If so, I can understand why you don't like visiting Burgundy anymore? I have visited and tasted at a few of these places and found the experience thrilling. But, then I also am thrilled going to California and tasting at Ridge, Chateau Montelena, Stony Hill, etc., and do not say if I cannot taste at Screaming Eagle and Harlan it is not worth going.
Honestly, if I knew that all I could do was visit Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot and Oliver Leflaive (where I have not been), tour vineyards and eat in Burgundy (all of which should be easily doable), I would rather go there than to Macon, Beaujolais or even the Napa Valley. But, that is an individual choice for each person to make for themselves.