Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

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Robert M yers
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Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#1 Post by Robert M yers » September 1st, 2019, 12:31 am

Curious to what is the earliest premox you’ve experienced.

Bit player here, but I’ve been increasing buying lately which has led to now some short term aging. Wondering where the breaking point may start or if the curve drops off at some point?

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#2 Post by Gerhard P. » September 1st, 2019, 2:41 am

Verger Bougros 1996 in 2002 for me.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#3 Post by Glen Gold » September 1st, 2019, 7:23 am

Do you mean the earliest vintage, the earliest year it was tasted, or the most recent bottle that was premoxed? If it's the last one, I had some 2015 Duroché bourgogne blanc this year that was premoxed.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#4 Post by alan weinberg » September 1st, 2019, 7:56 am

generally 1995 though I had some 1990 Lafon Perrieres that oxidized in late 90s before I knew much about the issue.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#5 Post by alan weinberg » September 1st, 2019, 7:57 am

alan weinberg wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 7:56 am
generally 1995 though I had some 1990 Lafon Perrieres that oxidized in late 90s before I knew much about the issue.

I’ve had some 3 year old white Burgs that premoxed—Matrot.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#6 Post by Jerry Hey » September 1st, 2019, 8:13 am

1995 Mikulski Meursault Genevrieres was my first premox bottle.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#7 Post by John J » September 1st, 2019, 8:26 am

1996 Bonneau du Martray Corton-Charlemagne took my premox virginity.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#8 Post by B. Buzzini » September 1st, 2019, 8:34 am

I think he means how quickly after vintage the wine poxed.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#9 Post by john stimson » September 1st, 2019, 11:33 am

With regard to the first year experienced, it would be the entire range of Colin-Deleger 1995.

with regard to soonest after release, I wouldn't know as I quit buying to age long ago--except Dauvissat Chablis. youngest of these premoxed would 2011's (Forest).

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#10 Post by Robert M yers » September 1st, 2019, 11:40 am

B. Buzzini wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 8:34 am
I think he means how quickly after vintage the wine poxed.
Yeah, sorry for the poor wording on the title confusion. Was thinking about how soon after release are we in the danger zone and does the risk exponentially increase with additional age.

Maybe even a more Interesting question though as well as to what were the first reports on the possibility of issues.
Last edited by Robert M yers on September 1st, 2019, 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#11 Post by Howard Cooper » September 1st, 2019, 11:47 am

For a couple of wines I have had from Fontaine-Gagnard and Jouard, not that many years.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#12 Post by Kris Patten » September 1st, 2019, 11:59 am

1996 Ramonet Ruchottes was my first, youngest was 2005 Jadot Chevy Demoiselles in 2011.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#13 Post by scamhi » September 1st, 2019, 12:13 pm

2011 Michel Niellon Chevalier Montrachet -2 bottles in 2018
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#14 Post by Jerry Hey » September 1st, 2019, 12:36 pm

Don Cornwell's annual tastings are 7 years after a vintage and sadly there have been several cases of premox at those nights.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#15 Post by Frank Drew » September 1st, 2019, 1:10 pm

2002 was the year I noticed an issue with some 1996s; I posted a query on the Squires’ board but the consensus was that there wasn’t an issue. I pretty much forgot about it but not too long after that Lou Deizel(sp?) posted that he’d definitely seen an abnormally high rate of premature oxidation in that vintage. The rest is history.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#16 Post by Howard Cooper » September 1st, 2019, 1:21 pm

Jerry Hey wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 12:36 pm
Don Cornwell's annual tastings are 7 years after a vintage and sadly there have been several cases of premox at those nights.
More than several, but have there been any closed with DIAM?
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#17 Post by Chris Seiber » September 1st, 2019, 2:30 pm

I think normally around 6 years from the vintage date is when the risk gets substantial. But you will have ones younger than that here and there.

I can’t remember specifically the youngest one. Probably 4 years old.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#18 Post by CJ Beazley » September 1st, 2019, 2:48 pm

2005 Jean Louis Chavy Puligny Montrachet, moxed by *2006.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#19 Post by Alan Rath » September 1st, 2019, 4:23 pm

2005 Thierry Matrot Meursault Perrieres was delicious on release. A year or so later was already showing distinct premox.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#20 Post by alan weinberg » September 1st, 2019, 4:58 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 4:23 pm
2005 Thierry Matrot Meursault Perrieres was delicious on release. A year or so later was already showing distinct premox.
poster child for premox and therefore one of the least expensive MP for sale.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#21 Post by Kirk.Grant » September 1st, 2019, 6:00 pm

I had a 2010 Patrick Piuze Bougros Côte de Bouqueyreaux in 2013 that was horribly pre-moxed.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#22 Post by Tom Reddick » September 1st, 2019, 8:12 pm

At Ramonet they have admitted to it happening with some bottles of 1989 Bienvenue Batard. For me personally, Amiot Montrachet 1986. The phenomenon worsened greatly starting with the 1995s, but I think it has always been there in some measure.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#23 Post by IlkkaL » September 1st, 2019, 10:12 pm

2012 Domaine Vincent et Francois Jouard Chassagne-Montrachet Vieilles Vignes was very obviously premoxed when tasted in October 2016. Lifeless and flat with a flavor profile somewhat reminiscent of Viña Gravonia.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#24 Post by Blair Ridley » September 2nd, 2019, 3:39 am

I'm a small time white burg enthusiast (mainly due to premox fears), but I had a bad 2012 Henri Boillot P-M Clos de la Mouchere just a few weeks ago.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#25 Post by Bill Sweeney » September 2nd, 2019, 4:32 am

I had a couple of 1990 Lafons that were clearly oxidized. This was probably in the early 2000s.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#26 Post by chetkern » September 2nd, 2019, 9:39 am

86 Lafon Perrieres was a problem, but not pre-mox, he just picked too late. Winemaking flaws and techniques as against pre-mox is a totally different animal, which the later having begun to rear it’s ugly head beginning with the 1995’s white burgundies.

Over the years till 95, one could confidently purchase a case of top white burgundy and be sure they’d age and improve for many years. 9 btls would be perfect, one would be off, and 2 still good, but not as good as the pristine 9. This 75% pristine rate was for me the norm, and the wines for me were priced accordingly. This is a general average percentage for me. If a white burg at 10-15 years was a 90 point bottle, for the other 2 bottles that were “off”, the deduction in points for those who quantify that way it would be between 2-5 points. The “off” 2 were still extremely pleasurable for me, and generally only slight disappointments only more so if it was the last bottle from a case.

Unfortunately for the most here my above discussion is sadly irrelevant.

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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#27 Post by Mike S. » September 2nd, 2019, 10:39 am

I have not had any premox in the first three years after release. The number I have experienced has increased with the number of years past the three year release.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#28 Post by Eric Lundblad » September 2nd, 2019, 11:11 am

The risk or premox has gone down a lot in the last ~5 years tho cuz most of the worst affected producers (and many others) have done a number of things to address this...switching to Diam corks and changes in the cellar (assumed in many cases, Fevre has been the most open about the fact they had problems and what they were doing in the cellar). My observation is ~2005 to ~2011 were the most risky vintages (in large part because of a number of previously 'no premox' producers decided to jump into the game!). Overall, ~five years after the vintage is when it gets dangerous (for when clearly premoxed wines begin to show up) for the producers that are prone to it...and 3+ years after the vintage when those wines start appearing tired/etc (esp for the most prone producers). It's not clear that the advances made in recent years have changed the 5 & 3 years to appearance of problems (i.e. the over % of problem bottles & problem producers has gone down....but has the 'years to the appearance of problems' changed, for bottles that eventually show problems? That's not clear to me.

I haven't seen a case of premox with a diam closed wine, and I've looked (cuz I use Diam on my wines). As I said above, I'm sure it's changes in the cellar + using diam that's the key. Fevre made a significant number of changes in the cellar prior to switching to diam (in their 1er & grand crus) and they continued to have significant premox problems...resolved only when they added Diam. There are other solutions that are similar to Diam that are out there now.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#29 Post by Doug Schulman » September 3rd, 2019, 9:53 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 6:00 pm
I had a 2010 Patrick Piuze Bougros Côte de Bouqueyreaux in 2013 that was horribly pre-moxed.
Yup, that's the earliest I've seen, by a couple of years.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#30 Post by John Danza » September 3rd, 2019, 11:26 am

Having opened a lot of cases of white Burgs over the years, the phenomenon really started to come on with the 1996 vintage. I've found that there's general safety with vintages previous to that, but you never say never.
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#31 Post by Mel Knox » September 3rd, 2019, 4:40 pm

I went to a tasting of 1995 Montrachets....around 2002...more than half gone...
I think most people have figured out things since aROUND 2012....bUT EVIDENTLY NOT ALL...
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Re: Whats the Earliest White Burg PreMox?

#32 Post by p@ulbortin » September 3rd, 2019, 6:55 pm

1995 was the first vintage of the premox devastation.

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