Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine

If you could only have Bordeaux Rouge or Burgundy Rouge rest of your life, which would you pick?

Bordeaux
48
32%
Burgundy
103
68%
 
Total votes: 151

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YLee
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Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#1 Post by YLee » August 30th, 2019, 2:53 pm

If you could only have Bordeaux Rouge or Burgundy Rouge rest of your life, which would you pick?
Last edited by YLee on August 30th, 2019, 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux vs. Burgundy

#2 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » August 30th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Côte Rôtie, with dinner from my favorite sushi place, Kobayashi Maru. [wink.gif]

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux vs. Burgundy

#3 Post by Chris Seiber » August 30th, 2019, 3:10 pm

Is this just red, or reds and whites? Pretty big difference there.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux vs. Burgundy

#4 Post by YLee » August 30th, 2019, 3:11 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 3:10 pm
Is this just red, or reds and whites? Pretty big difference there.
I will change it to red
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#5 Post by Bryan Carr » August 30th, 2019, 3:23 pm

We're talking red Bordeaux and Burgundy of all quality levels or just basic "Bordeaux AOC" and "Bourgogne Rouge AOC"?
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#6 Post by YLee » August 30th, 2019, 3:25 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 3:23 pm
We're talking red Bordeaux and Burgundy of all quality levels or just basic "Bordeaux AOC" and "Bourgogne Rouge AOC"?
Whatever your heart desires.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#7 Post by Joshua Kates » August 30th, 2019, 3:29 pm

Easy call for me, though I also *really* like Bordeaux :)

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#8 Post by Bryan Carr » August 30th, 2019, 4:16 pm

YLee wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 3:25 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 3:23 pm
We're talking red Bordeaux and Burgundy of all quality levels or just basic "Bordeaux AOC" and "Bourgogne Rouge AOC"?
Whatever your heart desires.
It's weird for me because I like cheap bordeaux better than cheap burgundy, but above that I'm burgundy all the way.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux vs. Burgundy

#9 Post by Eric S n y d e r » August 30th, 2019, 4:18 pm

D@ve D y r 0 f f wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Côte Rôtie, with dinner from my favorite sushi place, Kobayashi Maru. [wink.gif]
Well played.

I said Burgundy, but it wasn’t easy. Great Bordeaux hits higher heights in my price range. But, I mostly drink wine with food, and Pinot Noir pairs better with what I commonly eat, soooo...

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#10 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 30th, 2019, 4:39 pm

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#11 Post by Cris Whetstone » August 30th, 2019, 4:46 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 4:39 pm
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But only for the sushi bar.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#12 Post by maureen nelson » August 30th, 2019, 4:50 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 4:39 pm
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Neal, I always say we don’t drink together enough.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#13 Post by YLee » August 30th, 2019, 4:50 pm

[flash=][/flash]
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 4:39 pm
2007 CdP. En magnum
I always thought you were a BDX man.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#14 Post by Mattstolz » August 30th, 2019, 5:06 pm

who's paying?

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#15 Post by R M Kriete » August 30th, 2019, 5:18 pm

Money no option: Burgundy

I gotta pay: Bordeaux

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#16 Post by JLee » August 30th, 2019, 5:30 pm

I chose Burgundy, assuming that price has not disappeared as a consideration.

I think it outperforms Bordeaux at $50 and under with the right vintage. The value proposition can be awful in Burgundy at the higher price points but one can always pick and choose.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#17 Post by Dan Kravitz » August 30th, 2019, 5:42 pm

I've had far more great Bordeaux than Burgundy, but I voted for Burgundy... as per JLee, I voted assuming price was not a consideration. I drink a fair amount of relatively inexpensive red Burgundy. I drink less red Bordeaux in general, grew up on the stuff (from age 19), still love it, but a big factor here is age. For Bordeaux in good vintages, from top Bourgeois to super 2nds (and firsts when budget permits), I find peak at 20 - 50 years of age. Despite the multiple 'black swans' enjoyed by Francois Audouze, et al, I find most upper-mid level Burgundy peaks 10 - 20 years younger.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#18 Post by Yao C » August 30th, 2019, 5:55 pm

What can I say, Bordeaux rouge seems to make me happy far more reliably than Burgundy rouge

But I'm sure my hit rate will go up with experience, cellar maturity, and an increased willingness to spend more [help.gif]
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#19 Post by c fu » August 30th, 2019, 7:03 pm

Seems 14 people clicked the wrong option accidentally
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#20 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 30th, 2019, 7:17 pm

R M Kriete wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 5:18 pm
Money no option: Burgundy

I gotta pay: Bordeaux
This.

Holding-off on voting, pending clarification.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#21 Post by Rudi Finkler » August 30th, 2019, 10:29 pm

c fu wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 7:03 pm
Seems 14 people clicked the wrong option accidentally
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#22 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 31st, 2019, 12:45 am

Rudi Finkler wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 10:29 pm
c fu wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 7:03 pm
Seems 14 people clicked the wrong option accidentally
15, [berserker.gif]
16!

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#23 Post by Alex Rychlewski » August 31st, 2019, 2:19 am

Interesting that a geek community should be so at odds with sales figures.

I think the original question is flawed. Why in the world should one deprive oneself of one or the other?

I certainly don't, and feel that pitting two of France's greatest winegrowing régions against each other is pointless.

I might point out too, that you'll find Burgundy adepts denigrating Bordeaux a lot more than the other way around.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#24 Post by Jürgen Steinke » August 31st, 2019, 9:11 am

As much as I love Burgundy I hate the idea to drink nothing else the rest of my life. There are so many other good wines on earth.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#25 Post by YLee » September 1st, 2019, 6:15 am

Such a big difference in votes. I would have thought it would be a closer race.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#26 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 1st, 2019, 6:26 am

I have tasted many generic Bordeaux, and have yet to taste anything that I would really want to drink regularly, let alone as my only wine for the rest of my life. OTOH there are plenty of very good basic Bourgognes made by excellent producers who pride themselves on the whole range of wine.

So I hate to say it, but this is a really flawed, poorly thought out poll where like is not being compared with like. You can see that in cost; generic Bordeaux is at best an $10 bottle that is also a lousy value. Take Mouton Cadet, an industrial effort and frankly not a good wine, while basic Burgundy can be ten times as much but also capable of being a great experience.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#27 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 1st, 2019, 6:37 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 6:26 am
I have tasted many generic Bordeaux, and have yet to taste anything that I would really want to drink regularly, let alone as my only wine for the rest of my life. OTOH there are plenty of very good basic Bourgognes made by excellent producers who pride themselves on the whole range of wine.

Interesting.

I have the exact opposite opinion, and in my experience, have come to the exact opposite conclusion. Granted, I’m not talking “generic” plonk from either category. In the daily drinker category - say $20 to $50 - Bordeaux slays Burgundy. Heck, Beaujolais slays Burgundy.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#28 Post by RichardFlack » September 1st, 2019, 7:01 am

Question isn’t clear as to whether, in each category, it’s a “typical” example readily available, or the best possible artisinal example. I gather we’re looking at around $30 Can ($20 US).
Typical : Bordeaux or Beaujolais
Artisinal: Bourgogne.

It might also depend on what I’m being forced to eat each day. Steak, or roast chicken?

It is so easy to over analyse these polls!

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#29 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 1st, 2019, 7:03 am

I don’t know of any generic Bordeaux in the $20 to $50 range, but I agree once you hit those levels, Bordeaux really is the better buy. But OP was talking generic, and the cost and quality is around $10, and you get what you pay for.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#30 Post by RichardFlack » September 1st, 2019, 7:12 am

Question isn’t clear as to whether, in each category, it’s a “typical” example readily available, or the best possible artisinal example. I gather we’re looking at around $30 Can ($20 US).
Typical : Bordeaux or Beaujolais
Artisinal: Bourgogne.

It might also depend on what I’m being forced to eat each day. Steak, or roast chicken?

It is so easy to over analyse these polls!

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#31 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 1st, 2019, 7:17 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 7:03 am
I don’t know of any generic Bordeaux in the $20 to $50 range, but I agree once you hit those levels, Bordeaux really is the better buy. But OP was talking generic, and the cost and quality is around $10, and you get what you pay for.
I did not see him make any references to “generic” in the OP.

I feel this way across the entire price spectrum.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#32 Post by YLee » September 1st, 2019, 7:29 am

I left the poll to each individuals' interpretation. I wanted an end of weekday fun simple poll to relax our minds and wind down.

But I definitely didnt have "generic" wines in mind when creating this poll.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#33 Post by Rudi Finkler » September 1st, 2019, 9:07 am

Thanks for the clarification, ¥ 0 ñ 9.

“Bordeaux Rouge” can be interpreted as “AOC Bordeaux”, which is, of course, not the same as “Red Bordeaux”.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#34 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 1st, 2019, 3:58 pm

Robert and Mark are both right to my taste.

Maybe swayed by picking up ‘75 Pape Clement for under $100 all-in on last week’s Winebid auction, less than many new release village Burgundies, I picked Bordeaux for the poll.

The Burgundy value proposition just sucks. I find it much more difficult to hunt bargains in new or mature Burgundy that I really like and want while I continue to find and drink high quality mature Bordeaux at what I consider fair pricing. Beyond the First Growths and the Right Bank equivalents, there are only a few wines/vintages that make me balk.

The caveat is: for the above thinking, my brain is planted in the $50-200 range.

If we limited the poll to Bordeaux and Burgundy in the $20-50 range, I would have a problem with both categories these days but would probably swing the other way. I like the Burgundy I can still find in this range, particularly $30-50, on average more than the Bordeaux. There are still high quality Premier Crus in this range. Even in the US.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#35 Post by Ian S » September 1st, 2019, 5:07 pm

What a great poll. It's brought out nit picking pedantics galore! neener blahblah [popcorn.gif]
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » September 1st, 2019, 6:28 pm

Alex Rychlewski wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 2:19 am

I might point out too, that you'll find Burgundy adepts denigrating Bordeaux a lot more than the other way around.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#37 Post by G. Keeler » September 1st, 2019, 9:27 pm

Bordeaux was first love and still enjoy it but now a days I drink 15 bottles of burg to every Bordeaux.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#38 Post by Alex Rychlewski » September 1st, 2019, 11:18 pm

It's funny, I have sometimes read on forums such as this that people "graduate" from Bordeaux to Burgundy. That seems very odd to me in that Burgundy is the far more upfront, easier-to-understand wine (notice I didn't say "obvious"?). It also shows its colors much earlier. It is thus easier to relate to. Burgundy is seductive, Bordeaux is reserved. You have to think about it to appreciate it. Not just a roll in the hay ;-).

As for the entry level wines from both regions, I think that Bordeaux has Burgundy beat hands down.
Let me explain.
As for the whites, I think we can all agree that, except for a tiny percentage of white Bordeaux, Burgundy does better.
*However*, I can find good (not excellent) château-bottled Entre-Deux-Mers at 5 euros a bottle. Entry level Burgundy is about twice that.
As for the reds, the contrast is even more striking.

Once you move up the quality scale this - important - value-for-money consideration takes on less importance.

Once again, I am a fan of *both* Bordeaux and Burdundy, even if my art lies in the latter region.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#39 Post by A Songeur » September 2nd, 2019, 2:23 am

Alex,
I think it is easier to get into fine Bordeaux for several reasons:

- Bordeaux: there is the 1855 classification and a chateau equals one owner and produces a very large number of bottles a year.

- Burgundy is a minefield as you have a combination of terroirs/climats and producers which multiplies the complexity with many producers making wine from a terroir/climats and producers making many wins from various terroirs/climats. To only take a few examples,
- Ghislaine Barthod makes 9 1er crus (11 from 2017) a village and a regional wine with her husband making many wines from many different terroirs from different villages...
- Grivot has 3 grands crus, 6 Vosne 1er crus, 3 NSG 1er crus, 5 villages (2 NSG, 2 Vosne and 1 Chambolle) and 2 regional (red and white) not to mention his attempt at negoce...
- There are about 50 producers of Clos Vougeot, many excellent, many all right and many avoidable...

When a beginner, you have no idea about Producer, Producer, number of wines, number of terroirs/climats... so you can get a lot of disappointments before you understand a few things ... so this is certainly not the region to start with...

So, I started with Bordeaux and then developed an interest for Burgundy only once I became a wine geek.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#40 Post by G. Keeler » September 2nd, 2019, 7:30 am

Antoine makes good points. In addition for me, I have just moved to “lighter” styles of wine in general over the years. Most of that has to do with a changing diet as we have gotten older. Right or wrong, I associate Bordeaux with beef, lamb or other more robust dishes. Burgundy can play with lighter food or move up to more robust dishes which makes it more versatile. We joke in our house that Bordeaux has turned into somewhat of a special occasion wine because we tend to only open them at home or bring to a restaurant when we know we will be having something like beef or lamb (which is rare these days). Everyone looks at food and wine pairings different but this is what works for us.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#41 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 2nd, 2019, 7:35 am

Please register a vote for BobDylan “I started off in Burgundy and soon hit the harder stuff.”
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#42 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 2nd, 2019, 7:51 am

Forgive a question from a Burgundy ignoramus. One does not hear talk of Parkerization and high!y influential oenologists miitating for that style of wine there. First, is that the case? Second, if it is, is it because the vignerons kicked Parker out early on, the audience for Burgundy just always didn't share his taste, some combination of those two or something else entirely?

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#43 Post by Howard Cooper » September 2nd, 2019, 5:15 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 7:51 am
Forgive a question from a Burgundy ignoramus. One does not hear talk of Parkerization and high!y influential oenologists miitating for that style of wine there. First, is that the case? Second, if it is, is it because the vignerons kicked Parker out early on, the audience for Burgundy just always didn't share his taste, some combination of those two or something else entirely?
My sense is that Pierre Rovani had some influence in having some producers making overoaked, high alcohol wines in the 1990s and early 2000s. He also pushed what ultimately were less successful vintages like 1997 over better vintages like 2001, which he trashed. I think that a lot of Burgundy producers and consumers ultimately rejected these wines. Plus, I think it was huge that there became an alternate very influential voice in Burgundy reviewing in Allen Meadows who praised more classic wines from Burgundy. I rather liked when Rovani was reviewing Burgundy as some of better producers stayed under the radar and their wines sold for reasonable prices. Unfortunately, these producers are no longer under the radar and their wines no longer sell at reasonable prices, at least in the US.

Ultimately, of interest, Rovani has had a lot of success running an estate in Burgundy. I am happy for him - while I did not agree with a lot of his reviews at the WA, I liked him when he worked at retail in DC at MacArthur Beverages (prior to his time at the WA) and he recommended some very good wines to me while he was there.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#44 Post by Howard Cooper » September 2nd, 2019, 5:20 pm

At around the same time, there was a very influential person working with wineries named Guy Accad, who was recommending “newer” winemaking techniques. My sense is a lot of his winemaking recommendations were ultimately rejected although I think some of his recommendations on grape growing are still respected.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#45 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » September 3rd, 2019, 12:45 am

I was aware of controversy over Rovani in Burgundy. And, of course, the rise of Allen Meadows was visible on the boards. I didn't know about Accad. But the question is why did Rovani and Accad not have the influence Parker did and Rolland does (or why only for a short period) and why was Meadows welcomed with open arms? There does seem to be something else at play.

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#46 Post by Howard Cooper » September 3rd, 2019, 5:41 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
September 3rd, 2019, 12:45 am
I was aware of controversy over Rovani in Burgundy. And, of course, the rise of Allen Meadows was visible on the boards. I didn't know about Accad. But the question is why did Rovani and Accad not have the influence Parker did and Rolland does (or why only for a short period) and why was Meadows welcomed with open arms? There does seem to be something else at play.
I think it has something to do with Burgundy drinkers. The following is not universally true but tends to be more true than not. There are a lot of California wine lovers and Bordeaux wine lovers who tend to be either newer wine lovers or people who just like richer, bigger wines. These people tend to gravitate to the types of big, rich wines supplied by Rolland and loved by Parker. Ask virtually anyone who drinks wines and who is not on this board or otherwise a wine geek what is most important to them in wine and they will say body or richness or something else connoting bigger is better.

While there are a lot of people who like more classic wines from California or Bordeaux, esp. with respect to more experienced wine lovers like you find on this board (including me), I think we are overwhelmed in numbers by the bigger is better crowd, making wine regions like these more receptive to the types of wines made by Rolland and pushed by Parker. These are large regions and they tend to go where the most customers are.

By contrast, Burgundy is a smaller region and my guess is that few beginners start buying wines from Burgundy. While the number of experienced wine lovers who love say Bordeaux still probably is much larger than the number who like Burgundy, Bordeaux cannot live on just wine geeks while Burgundy can and really has to do so. Certainly, every once in a while there is a vintage like 2005 or 2015 that draws more casual wine drinkers into buying Burgundy, for the most part in most vintages Burgundy has to be sold to Burgundy nuts, and Burgundy nuts can sustain a lot of really top notch small estates because these estates produce such little amounts of wine. Also, so much of Burgundy is still small family-owned properties, and not banks and insurance companies, so there are a lot of people who can make wines the way they want to make wines, sell all of them with ease and not really have to worry about how to sell large amounts of wine.
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Mark Golodetz
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#47 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 3rd, 2019, 6:40 am

I would add that when I started there was a dearth of information, and Burgundy was always an expensive and difficult wine to learn about. It took about 8 years for those who were going to become Burgundy geeks to really learn about the wines, and start becoming serious buyers. Nowadays that number has gone way down; huge amount of information available and the internet has made meeting like minded people easier. Interestingly if you figure the Chinese started buying Bordeaux heavily in 2010, there was a strong gravitation towards Burgundy five years later.

As for Parker, most Burgundy lovers self select, and what they are looking for, is the absolute opposite of Parker’s preferred taste profile.
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Richard T r i m p i
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#48 Post by Richard T r i m p i » September 3rd, 2019, 7:05 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 3rd, 2019, 6:40 am
I would add that when I started there was a dearth if information, and Burgundy was an always an expensive and difficult wine to learn about. It took about 8 years for those who were going to become Burgundy geeks to really learn about the wines, and start becoming serious buyers. Nowadays that number has gone way down; huge amount of information available and the internet has made meeting like minded people easier. Interestingly if you figure the Chinese started buying Bordeaux heavily in 2010, there was a strong gravitation towards Burgundy five years later.
I agree with you Mark that there's a lot more Burg info around these days. Easier to learn than it was...but it's still laborious and IMHO requires years of tasting, research and study to develop anything close to a "broad understanding". I very much wonder how many of today's buyers understand the region and have developed a passion for its nuances/intricacies as opposed to gravitating towards the "prestige" and/or "investment".

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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux Rouge vs. Burgundy Rouge

#49 Post by Jay Miller » September 3rd, 2019, 9:42 am

I also think that the lower production levels in Burgundy may have something to do with it. In Bordeaux they have a lot more wine to move so the wider audience that Parker provided made more of a difference.

But I still shudder to remember some of those overoaked North Berkeley imports that they pushed some producers into making.
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Re: Friday poll: Bordeaux vs. Burgundy

#50 Post by J a y H a c k » September 3rd, 2019, 9:44 am

D@ve D y r 0 f f wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 2:55 pm
Côte Rôtie, with dinner from my favorite sushi place, Kobayashi Maru. [wink.gif]
You can't win with that scenario.
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