TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#1 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 30th, 2019, 11:55 am

2016 Weingut Max Ferd. Richter Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/25/2019)
-- popped and poured --
-- tasted non-blind on Day 1 and on Day 7, alongside 2016 Von Schubert - Maximin Grunhauser Herrenberg Kabinett --
-- AP #: … 40 17 --

NOSE: moderately expressive; orange creamsicle; "light" --- lighter than the Von Schubert; slight buttermilk note that I didn't particularly enjoy.

BODY: pale yellow color; no spritz; same appearance as the Von Schubert; medium bodied.

TASTE: medium acidity; slight buttermilk note; 8% alc. not noticeable; green grapes; seems this would benefit from being slightly less sweet; somewhat loosely-structured; just a touch salty; good-not-great. Still nice on Day 7: creamy, and actually better than on Day 1. Gut impression score: 87 – 88. *Might* give this one more chance in a different vintage, but expectations are tempered.
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

J. Rock
Posts: 294
Joined: March 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#2 Post by J. Rock » August 30th, 2019, 12:25 pm

I love your Riesling notes, but I have a completely different opinion about this wine (and the subjectivity and discussion involved in wine is one thing I love). Maybe I was just pleasantly surprised because Max Ferd. usually doesn't wow me (usually high 80s pts for me), but I LOVED this wine. Notes:

2016 Weingut Max Ferd. Richter Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (8/17/2019)

- pop and pour; 51 degrees; white wine glass

- Nose: Ginger, salt, minerals , Meyer lemon; fairly strong nose

- Palate: high salinity, ginger, Meyer lemon, little green apple, white peach, minerality (slate?); medium- finish w/ minerals and salt; high- acidity; medium sweetness; light+ body; flavor fills my mouth but the wine seems go somewhat glide over my tongue

- Overall thoughts: Wonderfull, layered flavors and nicely balanced flavors with the interplay between salinity, minerality, fruit, and spice; I couldn't decide between 93 and 94 points, but I think it needs a longer finish to score above a 93; EXCELLENT pairing with hot wings

- 93 pts (which I consider great/impressive)

I had some they next day and it was quite similar to the prior night; although, maybe it opened up just a tad.

Amazing QPR for me.

I'm curious to see what others think, and if anyone experienced the things I did.

Cheers!
J o r d a n

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33025
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#3 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 30th, 2019, 12:29 pm

I've tried Richter many times, and never been wowed.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#4 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 30th, 2019, 12:52 pm

Thanks for chiming-in, Jordan. Your note reads like a wine I'd enjoy greatly --- LOL! Pretty sure Gilman and MFW liked the Richter quite a lot, so you're not alone. It probably does bear noting: this wine may have suffered a bit by being tasted alongside another wine that I enjoyed more.
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

maureen nelson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2291
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 5:12 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#5 Post by maureen nelson » August 30th, 2019, 4:54 pm

This cru is killer in 2015.

User avatar
M.Kaplan
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4909
Joined: April 18th, 2009, 9:10 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#6 Post by M.Kaplan » August 30th, 2019, 5:56 pm

maureen nelson wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 4:54 pm
This cru is killer in 2015.
Erdener Treppchen, too.
---Mark

User avatar
Pat Martin
Posts: 2628
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 11:38 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#7 Post by Pat Martin » August 30th, 2019, 6:26 pm

The only Richters I’ve be wowed by have been from 2001. Sounds like I should revisit.
P@ tr!ck M 8rt!n

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#8 Post by Robert Panzer » August 31st, 2019, 2:12 pm

Fwiw, there are two different '16 vintage Elisenberg Kabinetts.
One is AP #17; this is a rarely seen old vine cuvée from the top of the vineyard that is a bit richer and bigger wine that takes a while to shed its baby fat face, and show the old vine material beneath. On pop and pour, it comes across as fairly simple and fruit dominated, not nearly as dynamic as the other bottling.
One is AP #27; this is the much larger cuvée that is a blend of the entire vineyard, young and old. It is much more featherweight in its initial impression, much more tense and dynamic out the chute. Any which way you slice it, in my not-so-humble opinion, this is outstanding outstanding Kabinett. I think that every major critic that I am aware of feels the same, Schildknecht, MFW, Gilman, and even including schlubbos like me (who has imported a crazy array of Constantin's wines over the past few years).
I think that the Elisenberg Kabi chez Richter, in general, stands as one of the world's greatest values in substance meets $, with great regularity.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
Brent C l a y t o n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5431
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: Kew Gardens, NY

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#9 Post by Brent C l a y t o n » September 1st, 2019, 11:43 am

2016 is a meh vintage. *I work for one of their distributors and sell the wine* but that said even before I worked for the distributor I always considered them one of the best values in the Mosel and the 2018's are impressive.
‘Purveyor of Plonk’
Threadsinker
ITB Sales
IG@bigdaddyb420wine

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#10 Post by Robert Panzer » September 1st, 2019, 12:09 pm

2016 is far from meh, in my opinion (and all of the critics).
Quite the contrary.
Filigree and super fine.
But to each their own.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#11 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 1st, 2019, 12:47 pm

Robert Panzer wrote:
August 31st, 2019, 2:12 pm
Fwiw, there are two different '16 vintage Elisenberg Kabinetts.
One is AP #17; this is a rarely seen old vine cuvée from the top of the vineyard that is a bit richer and bigger wine that takes a while to shed its baby fat face, and show the old vine material beneath. On pop and pour, it comes across as fairly simple and fruit dominated, not nearly as dynamic as the other bottling.
One is AP #27; this is the much larger cuvée that is a blend of the entire vineyard, young and old. It is much more featherweight in its initial impression, much more tense and dynamic out the chute. Any which way you slice it, in my not-so-humble opinion, this is outstanding outstanding Kabinett. I think that every major critic that I am aware of feels the same, Schildknecht, MFW, Gilman, and even including schlubbos like me (who has imported a crazy array of Constantin's wines over the past few years).
I think that the Elisenberg Kabi chez Richter, in general, stands as one of the world's greatest values in substance meets $, with great regularity.
But my bottle was AP # 40.
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33025
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#12 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 1st, 2019, 12:49 pm

Brent C l a y t o n wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 11:43 am
2016 is a meh vintage. *I work for one of their distributors and sell the wine* but that said even before I worked for the distributor I always considered them one of the best values in the Mosel and the 2018's are impressive.
‘Scuse me? A generally “meh vintage”? Or are you being specific to Richter?

It’s not a generally “meh” vintage. Not at all.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Brent C l a y t o n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 5431
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: Kew Gardens, NY

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#13 Post by Brent C l a y t o n » September 1st, 2019, 1:00 pm

David,

You know better, but what I've had has been pretty meh, both from Richter and other producers.

[dontknow.gif]
‘Purveyor of Plonk’
Threadsinker
ITB Sales
IG@bigdaddyb420wine

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33025
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#14 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 1st, 2019, 1:48 pm

Your palate is dead to me. ;)
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#15 Post by Robert Panzer » September 1st, 2019, 5:22 pm

As far as I am aware, there are only two '16 Elisenberg Kabi.

#16 and #27 (I had bad recall the first time, saying #17 and #27).

Maybe check your bottle again?

From my site:
For the AP #16:
To boot, there is a second bottling of Elisenberg Kabinett!! from the upper portion of the vineyard that Constantin has never exported before, saving it for the German market. I didn’t get to taste this one, unfortunately. However, Constantin tells me that he may in fact prefer this one to the AP27, and I do not doubt his candor and honesty one bit. !!!

“The Elisenberg Kabinett AP16 was made from fruit harvested at 80° Oechsle from old vines situated in what is internally known as the “Alte Elisenburg” sector of the vineyard. It offers a delicately ripe nose of cassis, peach, pear and herbal elements on the nose. The wine delivers its flavors with the creamy and ripe presence of a Spätlese on the palate yet proves elegantly ripe and fruity in the long finish. 2026-2041” 92 MFW

For the AP #27:
The Elisenberg is a monopole site that is not so well known among Mosel lovers, but that is changing fast as Constantin continues to bring out incredible qualities from its quartz soils. The 2015 found ooooodles of people head over heels. Well……this one may be even better….! Picked at a wonderfully moderate 80 oechsle, with 9g/L of acidity. “Classic!! The unique juniper berry forest-y aromas with a kiss of mint are signature calling cards for this vineyard’s entirely “other” sense of place. In its sense of filigree finesse, this may be even finer than the ’15….in precision, class, and complexity, an absolute knockout.” A little * awarded here. Get a case, and thank me later…..

“The Elisenberg Kabinett AP27 was made from fruit harvested at 81° Oechsle. It offers a stunning nose of white peach, mint, peach and ginger. The wine develops a stunning balance with pear, ginger and fine herbs and spices on the palate. The finish is salty, refined and superbly light-featured yet packed with flavors. This is a stunning Kabinett in the making but one which will need a few years to develop its full balance. It could even exceed our high expectations if it maintains the tension and finesse of the aromatics. What a stunning piece of Kabinett in the making! 2026-2041” 93+ MFW

“Scents and bright palate profusion of fresh lime, white peach and red currant put me in mind of a Ruwer Riesling. The delicate palate and consummately refreshing finish are transparent to stony underpinnings and incisive impingements of raw ginger. And here is one of those many instances where high quartzite content for whatever reason correlates with salinity, which in the present instance practically milks the salivary glands. If this libation doesn’t leave you invigorated, you might want to check with your doctor. (The newly revived antique label for this wine styles it merely as “Elisenberger,” although the official label conforms with German Wine Law in referring to “Veldenzer Elisenberg.”)” 92 David Schildknecht
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#16 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 1st, 2019, 7:40 pm

Unfortunately the bottle is long gone, but
1. I'm pretty good at reading;
2. No way this was a case of "fat fingering" because I hand-write my TNs, then transcribe them, and my TN does accurately reflect what I wrote down; and
3. I distinctly remember doing an AP # double-take because this one was "... 40 17" and the Von Schubert I tasted alongside was "... 04 17." At first glance I thought they were both AP # 4.

Another possibility: is there a difference between Elisenberg and Veldenzer Elisenberg?

FWIW, I purchased at Woodland Hills Wine Company; maybe they still have some and could check.
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

J. Rock
Posts: 294
Joined: March 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#17 Post by J. Rock » September 1st, 2019, 9:30 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
September 1st, 2019, 7:40 pm
Unfortunately the bottle is long gone, but
1. I'm pretty good at reading;
2. No way this was a case of "fat fingering" because I hand-write my TNs, then transcribe them, and my TN does accurately reflect what I wrote down; and
3. I distinctly remember doing an AP # double-take because this one was "... 40 17" and the Von Schubert I tasted alongside was "... 04 17." At first glance I thought they were both AP # 4.

Another possibility: is there a difference between Elisenberg and Veldenzer Elisenberg?

FWIW, I purchased at Woodland Hills Wine Company; maybe they still have some and could check.
Wow, even though I don't completely agree with Brian's opinion of this wine, he's not completely crazy! The bottle being sold at WHWC is AP #40 (and this is the same bottle I did my tasting notes on, above). I pulled it out of the recycling and have it in front of me now.
J o r d a n

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33025
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#18 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 2nd, 2019, 5:55 am

Maybe Polaner bought AP#40 from Benetiere. ;)
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
Mattstolz
Posts: 1316
Joined: June 26th, 2017, 7:46 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#19 Post by Mattstolz » September 2nd, 2019, 6:14 am

I dont wanna thread Hijack but can someone briefly explain AP#s to me? is one sites AP# consistent between producers, is it an individual producer thing but consistent vintage to vintage? do they just make up the number as the wine goes into tank? how do these numbers make it onto a label?

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#20 Post by Robert Panzer » September 2nd, 2019, 6:19 am

The AP #s are unique to each house, in each vintage.
They represent the order that the wines are presented to the government.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#21 Post by Robert Panzer » September 2nd, 2019, 6:20 am

I'll ask Constantin whats up w AP 40.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#22 Post by Robert Panzer » September 2nd, 2019, 6:39 am

He says that AP 40 and 27 are the same juice, with the 40 bottled days later.
One other about AP numbers is that they correspond w bottling dates.
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

User avatar
Mont Stern
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 717
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 10:32 am
Location: East Amherst, NY

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#23 Post by Mont Stern » September 2nd, 2019, 8:27 am

I went to a Massanois tasting led by Dirk Richter. I thought the Spatlese had so much more going on in this vintage and ended up buying a case of it. I also bought 2 bottles of his 2016 Mülheimer Helenenkloster Riesling Eiswein which was a real standout to me.

J. Rock
Posts: 294
Joined: March 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#24 Post by J. Rock » September 2nd, 2019, 9:22 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 6:39 am
He says that AP 40 and 27 are the same juice, with the 40 bottled days later.
One other about AP numbers is that they correspond w bottling dates.
Thanks for the clarification. I had not idea that bottling a couple of days later could change the AP number.
J o r d a n

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#25 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 2nd, 2019, 9:28 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 5:55 am
Maybe Polaner bought AP#40 from Benetiere. ;)
[rofl.gif]
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#26 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 2nd, 2019, 9:59 am

Mattstolz wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 6:14 am
I dont wanna thread Hijack but can someone briefly explain AP#s to me? is one sites AP# consistent between producers, is it an individual producer thing but consistent vintage to vintage? do they just make up the number as the wine goes into tank? how do these numbers make it onto a label?
http://www.moselfinewines.com/understan ... umbers.php
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

User avatar
Brian G r a f s t r o m
Posts: 18162
Joined: February 3rd, 2009, 12:54 am
Location: westside

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#27 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » September 2nd, 2019, 10:00 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
September 2nd, 2019, 6:39 am
He says that AP 40 and 27 are the same juice, with the 40 bottled days later.
One other about AP numbers is that they correspond w bottling dates.
Thank you for the clarification, Robert. [berserker.gif]
Los Angeles Workers' Compensation and Personal Injury

“All these characters spend their time explaining themselves, and happily recognizing that they hold the same opinions … how important they consider it to think the same things all together.” --- A.R.

CT handle: grafstrb

J. Rock
Posts: 294
Joined: March 11th, 2019, 4:53 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#28 Post by J. Rock » September 3rd, 2019, 2:23 pm

Since at least a few people on this thread mentioned that Max Ferd. Richter doesn't typically impress them, I want to note that a lot of the 2018s just received some very high marks from Mosel Fine Wines, including 100 pts for Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling TBA.

Despite hearing that 2018 wasn't the best vintage, especially compared to other recent vintages, the early reviews indicate that there are still a lot of really great 2018 wines.
J o r d a n

Robert Panzer
Posts: 2120
Joined: June 30th, 2011, 8:17 pm

Re: TN: 2016 Max Ferd. Richter - Veldenzer Elisenberg Riesling Kabinett (Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer)

#29 Post by Robert Panzer » September 4th, 2019, 6:17 am

And I just MAY have offered the full range of '18s over the past few days, including the TBAs.....!
;0
I T B - Down to Earth Wines

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”