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Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 3:05 am
by Dinesh Goyal
All

It seems like over 90s/early 2000s wines of CdP has become highly Parkerized.

It would be great to get recommendations on a few Châteauneuf-du-Pape red producers that are doing more balanced wines. Wines that show terroir, have good acidity and minerality to them, airy on the palette and yet even substance.

I wanted to try a few but didn’t know where to start from.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 4:37 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
First, global warming has changed the wines regardless of the producer. A CdP t 13.5% abv, common in the 90s is a thing of the past. If, however, one is looking for a producer who follows traditional practices and does not seek overripe wines, here is a personal list: Charvin, Ferrand, Pegau, Feraud et fils (until recently, this was Eddie Feraud), Vieux Telegraphe and Bois de Boursan. If money is no object, Rayas also belongs on that list. And there are surely others.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 4:58 am
by John S
The list above is a good one. But I would not look for acidity or minerality in CdP. Charvin, Vieux Telegraphe, and Pegau being my regular priced go to ones. Rayas is the most distinctive and pricey. Oh, Henri Bonneau is great but quite different and pricey.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 5:30 am
by Mike Francisco
I would add Raymond Usseglio's regular bottling to that list.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 5:39 am
by Kirk.Grant
With Chateauneuf du Pape I try to stick to two producers: Vieux Telegraphe & Beaucastel.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 6:08 am
by Gerhard P.
Bois de Boursan, also sold as Jean-Paul Versino ...
don't expect a fully accessable wine in the youth, but it will pay cellaring. 1985, 1989, 1990, 1994 (!) ... all enjoyed over the past year, all very fine ... 20 € off domaine ...

Cuvee Felix from old vines is more expensive ...

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 8:13 am
by Laurent Gibet
Mas Saint-Louis, Clos des Papes ...

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 8:19 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
I find Clos des Papes, since its handover from father to son, to have gone from the iron hand in the velvet glove to rocket fuel in a velvet glove. But I stopped buying after 04 sp tje style may have changed again. Unless it has changed back, it really is not what the OP was asking for.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 8:26 am
by Laurent Gibet
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 8:19 am
I find Clos des Papes, since its handover from father to son, to have gone from the iron hand in the velvet glove to rocket fuel in a velvet glove. But I stopped buying after 04 sp tje style may have changed again. Unless it has changed back, it really is not what the OP was asking for.
My last visit to the domaine was probant, with, for exampkle, a lovely Clos des Papes red 2013 (btw, the white is excellent too).

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am
by Nathan V.
John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 10:45 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
Nathan V. wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am
John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.
Yes, Texier. It's hard to find and pricey when you do. But it may be closer to what the OP was asking for than any other domaine mentioned as a matter of style. For those in the US, the Weygandt project, Chapelle St. Theodoric is also worth noting.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:02 am
by Nathan V.
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 10:45 am
Nathan V. wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am
John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.
Yes, Texier. It's hard to find and pricey when you do. But it may be closer to what the OP was asking for than any other domaine mentioned as a matter of style. For those in the US, the Weygandt project, Chapelle St. Theodoric is also worth noting.
Agreed. I like the Chapelle St. Theodoric Grand Pin a lot. I rarely drink it though. I think I may drink either a 1998 or 2000 Charvin tonight.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:11 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
I like the 98 a lot better. The 00 is quite nice and avoids the fatness of that year, but it's a little on the austere side. His 01, however, is great.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
by Josh Grossman
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:31 am
by Nathan V.
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:11 am
I like the 98 a lot better. The 00 is quite nice and avoids the fatness of that year, but it's a little on the austere side. His 01, however, is great.
Yeah, I've had a couple of bottles of the 2001 lately. BTW, I should mention that the bottles were a result of some cellar thinning by John S.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 11:33 am
by Nathan V.
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
I don't regularly drink Gigondas (honestly, the grenache based wine I drink the most are Gramenon) except for Gour de Chaulé, which I like a lot. I enjoyed Cayron back in the day, but it has been a long time since I've had a bottle.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:19 pm
by Doug Schulman
Clos du Mont Olivet, more so than most others (but not their super-cuvee, just the regular CdP). Also, relatively speaking, I'd say Beaucastel. Vieux Telegraphe has been extremely ripe in the past few vintages, so much so that I would not put them in this camp anymore.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:36 pm
by T. Altmayer
Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon are my two favorites in CDP and I think are more restrained.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
by Jonathan Loesberg
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm
by Josh Grossman
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:49 pm
by Jonathan Loesberg
JLL is worth attending to. I will try them when I am next at the Caveau, in the next week or so.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 12:57 pm
by Doug Schulman
Those Saint Damien wines are bruisers. I think they're very well made, but probably not what the OP is looking for.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 1:13 pm
by Josh Grossman
Doug Schulman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:57 pm
Those Saint Damien wines are bruisers. I think they're very well made, but probably not what the OP is looking for.
Do you mean the OP is only looking for wines associated with conspicuous consumption?

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 1:30 pm
by D. HEIN
Subject to vintage and your cellaring commitment:

Bosquet des Papes
Cabrieres
Pontifical
Monpertuis

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 1:35 pm
by William Kelley
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.
Cayron '15 last week was pretty liqueured and super-ripe in style, with nothing that could be described as garrigue. I drank cases of the 1998 as a student, and that was wild and Provencal, but this '15 was a different beast, pace JLL's tasting note. Obviously there's a clientele for that but it doesn't sound like what the OP is looking for.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 2:07 pm
by Mike Evans
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
I have an orphan 1998 Domaine La Garrigue Vacqueyras Cuvée Spéciale lurking around somewhere that I need to go ahead and drink (something I probably should have done at least 10 years ago). I’ll try to remember to check the importer strip to see who used to import them.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 2:26 pm
by Chris Seiber
I've always liked the style of Vieux Donjon, but I haven't bought it (or any CdP) in recent years, so I'm not sure if it's still the same. The bottles I occasionally open from the mid 2000s have developed very nicely.

One piece of advice would be to consider buying from the cooler vintages there and avoid the ripe vintages. Plus, you'll probably get better pricing.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 6:41 pm
by Dinesh Goyal
All

Thank you for your inputs. This is what I was hoping for - get a few ideas on what to try.

Thing that stands out is that there are no clear favorites for the kind of style I like. But i do want to give the region a serious try before I give up.

From the feedback above, it feels like following producers will be a good place to start from:

Beaucastel
Vieux Donjon
Charvin
Vieux Telegraphe

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 6:49 pm
by Robert.A.Jr.
Dinesh -

Beaucastel is one of the few that I still buy. If you are also looking for daily drinkers, their Cotes du Rhône is excellent. Recent vintages of 2015 and 2016 are cases purchases.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 27th, 2019, 7:30 pm
by Paul McCourt
T. Altmayer wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:36 pm
Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon are my two favorites in CDP and I think are more restrained.
Two of my faves,also.

Beau is number one with me, though.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 12:39 am
by Robert Sand
+1 for Bois deBoursan. very traditional producer, 1/3 price of Beaucastel. Clos des Brusquieres is also good.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 12:50 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
Mike Evans wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 2:07 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
I have an orphan 1998 Domaine La Garrigue Vacqueyras Cuvée Spéciale lurking around somewhere that I need to go ahead and drink (something I probably should have done at least 10 years ago). I’ll try to remember to check the importer strip to see who used to import them.
The Domaine les Garrigues Vacqueyrases, like their Gigondases, are long lasting. That 98 should be in fine shape. The Vacqueyras is still being imported, as it has been for some time. It's the Gigondas that has never been imported. They make very little of it and sell it all either at the domaine or at their own family restaurant, Les Florets.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 12:52 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
William Kelley wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 1:35 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.
Cayron '15 last week was pretty liqueured and super-ripe in style, with nothing that could be described as garrigue. I drank cases of the 1998 as a student, and that was wild and Provencal, but this '15 was a different beast, pace JLL's tasting note. Obviously there's a clientele for that but it doesn't sound like what the OP is looking for.
Yes, the note surprised me too, but I will check for myself in the near future.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am
by Dinesh Goyal
BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 4:39 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am
BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?
Well made wines, but not in the style you are looking for.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 4:43 am
by John S
Yep, well made but riper in style and some have more new oak. But my experience with these is a bit dated.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 4:50 am
by Robert Sand
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am
BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?
Clos des Caillou is a vg producer, but quite modern style.
La Reserve is usually outstanding

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 6:47 pm
by Kris Patten
I'd focus on vintage vs. producer. Find cooler years and go with better producers, off top of my head, 99, 01, 04, 08, 11 all had more restrained wines. People will bash Clos St. Jean or others, but I enjoy the wines in cool years.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 6:58 pm
by Jeff Vaughan
I like Bois de Boursan, Pegau, Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon, especially in cooler vintages.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:06 pm
by P.Sunesen
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am
Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.


It's Cambie, and he's not connected to Clos du Caillou.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:18 pm
by John Morris
Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 6:41 pm
All

Thank you for your inputs. This is what I was hoping for - get a few ideas on what to try.

Thing that stands out is that there are no clear favorites for the kind of style I like. But i do want to give the region a serious try before I give up.

From the feedback above, it feels like following producers will be a good place to start from:

Beaucastel
Vieux Donjon
Charvin
Vieux Telegraphe
In case you aren't aware, Beaucastel is really a very different beast because the blend typically includes 30% mourvedre and 10% syrah, and they use all 13 permitted grapes, including some white grapes. That's pretty much unique. It has a different texture and flavor profile than wines that are 80+% grenache.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 8:20 pm
by John Morris
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s.
I had similar experiences in the 2000s, but the '16 is rocking -- dense but balanced, with great structure. It will need some time in the cellar.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 29th, 2019, 1:07 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
P.Sunesen wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 8:06 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am
Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.


It's Cambie, and he's not connected to Clos du Caillou.
I apologize for the typo. According to both the Danish website and Cambie's own website, he does consult at Clos du Caillou.

http://www.chateauneuf.dk/en/cdpen115.htm

http://www.philippecambie.com/consultin ... f-du-pape/

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 29th, 2019, 9:11 am
by Doug Schulman
Question for people suggesting Vieux Telegraphe: have you had recent vintages? The past several all have a strong liqueur note to me and are VERY ripe. I think it's far from the style that it used to be.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 29th, 2019, 11:07 am
by John S
For me no on VT. My serious CdP tasting info generally refers to vintages 2007 and before.

Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

Posted: August 29th, 2019, 11:14 am
by Jonathan Loesberg
There's been no change in ownership since the 80s and the cellar master has been around since the mid aughts. It is changes in one of these things (particularly a change in ownership, including a generational change) that usually leads to a change in style. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it may be just what happened in a couple of vintages for your taste. If you feel the same about the next two, you should probably start to act accordingly.