TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

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Robert.A.Jr.
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TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#1 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 18th, 2019, 5:16 pm

The 2003 Joguet Chinon Clos de la Dioterie was a disaster, went straight down the sink. Like rotten bell peppers and stewed tomatoes. No redeeming quality whatsoever. I assumed a bottle that have been exposed to heat, but the bottle itself, and the cork and label, were quite pristine. No sign of heat damage or seepage whatsoever. I had the identical experience with three, back-to-back bottles of 2003 Couly Chinon Clos de l’Echo, over the last 18 months. Same thing, seemingly perfect bottles, totally stewed. I cannot comment on whether 2003 Chinon was a roaster like some other regions of France, having only had good (excellent, actually) bottles of Rougeard and Baudry’s Franc de Pied, the latter twice from Racines in NYC.

(NR)

A lone bottle of 2004 Chateau Pontet Canet caught my eye, mostly as I do not buy this wine, and have no recollection how it made its way into my wine fridge. So given my recent Rolland experience at Ovid, this picqued my curiosity. Plus, at this point, I needed any swill I could find to exorcise that rank Joguet out of my system. And ironically, this wine also had pronounced wafts of ripe bell pepper. Assuming this was some sick vestige of the Joguet, I set it down, finished up making dinner - yes, I have been relegated to making my own food tonight, as wifey just made the finals of a major USTA tournament (not meant as a sexist comment, could just as easily have been interpreted to be that we normally go out for dinner on Sundays, true) - and circled back after starting to eat. And still bell pepper. Not bad, just surprising. Blind and I might call old Togni in an average year. After an hour open, the nose is rather appealing but quite singular. The palate is similar, and while technically correct, it’s actually rather boring. Not in a big ripe fruity international style thing that one might expect given Rolland, but instead, just a simple wine with clean Cabernet fruit more on the tart red spectrum than dark. I can run through the range of a few other notes, but all together, it’s just uneventful. Slightly drying on the finish.

(86 pts.)


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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#2 Post by A S K R O B A C K » August 18th, 2019, 5:21 pm

eeeek. Enjoy the scotch!
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#3 Post by Greg K » August 18th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Thanks for the note. I think Rolland’s influence on Pontet Canet is fairly limited given all the other things they do (biodynamics, amphorae, etc). Plus, I quite like this wine, so it’s good to see a different perspective. I can understand why you might find it a bit boring. Though 86 seems a bit harsh. :)
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#4 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 18th, 2019, 5:32 pm

I have heard that as well, Greg, and from my note, I tried to convey this does not taste like a Rolland wine. I think that I call balls and strikes, but sure, anyone reading this can take it with a grain of salt given my general thoughts on these consultants (and for the record, my disdain of baseball, too). This is a B to a B+ wine in my book.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#5 Post by A S K R O B A C K » August 18th, 2019, 5:37 pm

I've a couple mags of the 04 PC on the cellar so I am hoping time brings good things! I think 04s, early drinking though they are comparatively, are still young. Thoughts?
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#6 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 18th, 2019, 5:43 pm

I’m just starting to try some 04s. I was thinking same thing, 15 years. I’m calling this wine as I see it today, this bottle, not prognosticating on the future. The slight drying in the finish is not a positive indicator to me, but then again, you have magnums and hopefully they show better.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#7 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 18th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Pontet is about as non-interventionist as there is in bdx these days
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#8 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 18th, 2019, 6:28 pm

Half bottles of 2004 PC have been solid+ for several years now. 89-90 if I were to score, though I don’t.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#9 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » August 18th, 2019, 6:42 pm

You might want to give 2003 Joguet another shot, even though your pal Rolland didn't consult there.
  • 2003 Charles Joguet Chinon Clos du Chêne Vert - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Chinon (2/9/2018)
    Red bricking, nose of game, barnyard and raspberries. Beautifully textured palate. There is more barnyard with smoke and tobacco leaf all wrapped up in sweet raspberries. Label says 14% abv but without heat and well-balanced. Awesome with a pan-fried ribeye and stir fried Brussels sprouts! Bottle 5 of 6 and easily the best yet. Outstanding. (94 pts.)
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#10 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 18th, 2019, 6:45 pm

Thanks, Paul. Suggests to me that my bottle, like the Couly, was heat damaged. Bummer as I love this Cuvee.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#11 Post by Greg K » August 18th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 18th, 2019, 5:32 pm
I have heard that as well, Greg, and from my note, I tried to convey this does not taste like a Rolland wine. I think that I call balls and strikes, but sure, anyone reading this can take it with a grain of salt given my general thoughts on these consultants (and for the record, my disdain of baseball, too). This is a B to a B+ wine in my book.
I wasn’t implying you have an agenda at all, but also, I don’t really know what your grading scale is though - figured 93 was average for everyone these days. newhere
I think the 04 Pontet Canet is a really solid Bordeaux. It’ll never be great, but I’ve had quite a few bottles of it and to me it’s what I consider a 90.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#12 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 18th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Sorry Greg, I really didn’t mean to suggest that, but reading my post again, I see where you can infer that. My apologies. I see that Buecker is at 89-90. His palate is excellent, and he’s calling this a B+ or barely an A. Not a great divide between us. And I cannot discount some bottle variation, especially since I did not buy this wine on release.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#13 Post by Greg K » August 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 18th, 2019, 7:38 pm
Sorry Greg, I really didn’t mean to suggest that, but reading my post again, I see where you can infer that. My apologies. I see that Buecker is at 89-90. His palate is excellent, and he’s calling this a B+ or barely an A. Not a great divide between us. And I cannot discount some bottle variation, especially since I did not buy this wine on release.
No apology necessary! Just calibrating the rating systems, that’s all. [cheers.gif]
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#14 Post by Alan Rath » August 18th, 2019, 8:01 pm

I sold any 2003 joguet I had years ago (2009 as well); also sold every bottle of 2002 and 2004 Bordeaux I owned (not many, but just too austere for my tastes).
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#15 Post by Julian Marshall » August 19th, 2019, 12:51 am

Sounds like the Joguet may have been faulty, if it tasted like the Clos de l'Echo. I've had the latter twice recently and enjoyed it a lot, although it's not quite ready yet. 2003 was a roaster all over France but the Loire probably fared better than other regions. the Baudry Croix Boissée I tried wasn't roasted, just a little one dimensional. I've only got one Joguet from 03, the Varennes, which I shall try soon and report back on. As for Pontet-Canet, it's one of the few 04s I have which I have yet to try. The only 04 to really impress me has been Léoville-Barton.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#16 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 5:27 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 18th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Pontet is about as non-interventionist as there is in bdx these days
And, do you buy and like it? Curious.

Some of their “non-interventionist” measures started after the 2004 vintage, I think, FWIW.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#17 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 19th, 2019, 5:34 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 5:27 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 18th, 2019, 6:24 pm
Pontet is about as non-interventionist as there is in bdx these days
And, do you buy and like it? Curious.

Some of their “non-interventionist” measures started after the 2004 vintage, I think, FWIW.
I don't drink it much. I have a bunch of the 2006 buried (this one is going to take a very long time). I like the 99 and 2000
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#18 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 19th, 2019, 6:07 am

2004 was when PC started with their biodynamics.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#19 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am

I was curious and looked at Jeff’s website. It looked like many of the techniques such as use of amphora, destemming by hand and horse plows came much later. I’d love to hear from Jeff exactly what Rolland does there these days. A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#20 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 6:47 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:07 am
2004 was when PC started with their biodynamics.
Yes, that year they used it for Merlot, and I believe by 2005 they were using for cab as well.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#21 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 6:48 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
I was curious and looked at Jeff’s website. It looked like many of the techniques such as use of amphora, destemming by hand and horse plows came much later. I’d love to hear from Jeff exactly what Rolland does there these days. A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
My understanding is that they get his input on the blending, though he doesn't "do" the blending. I think his role at Pontet Canet is actually as a consultant. Which may be why I still like Pontet Canet
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#22 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 19th, 2019, 6:55 am

Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:48 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
I was curious and looked at Jeff’s website. It looked like many of the techniques such as use of amphora, destemming by hand and horse plows came much later. I’d love to hear from Jeff exactly what Rolland does there these days. A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
My understanding is that they get his input on the blending, though he doesn't "do" the blending. I think his role at Pontet Canet is actually as a consultant. Which may be why I still like Pontet Canet
Is there an official guide to Rolland that defines when his input is benign, and when it rises to the level of Voldemort?
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#23 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 6:59 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:55 am
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:48 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
I was curious and looked at Jeff’s website. It looked like many of the techniques such as use of amphora, destemming by hand and horse plows came much later. I’d love to hear from Jeff exactly what Rolland does there these days. A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
My understanding is that they get his input on the blending, though he doesn't "do" the blending. I think his role at Pontet Canet is actually as a consultant. Which may be why I still like Pontet Canet
Is there an official guide to Rolland that defines when his input is benign, and when it rises to the level of Voldemort?
I think that's more of an Alfert question. neener

But more seriously, I don't think of Pontet Canet as at all "modern", but rather as experimental. I don't buy new Bordeaux anymore because I like mine older and there's no reason to from a price perspective, but if I did, it would be one of them.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#24 Post by K John Joseph » August 19th, 2019, 9:19 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
But even what you're doing is not necessarily the norm. At least in litigation/bankruptcy. I know many partners at many firms who haven't drafted a pleading in years. They know the tactics, know how to build and present a case, and know how to generate leverage for their client, but either aren't great writers or have associates who are better writers. Or see any number of companies that bring in Rusty Hardin to try their cases after other firms build and tee up the thing. Rolland has made a ton of wineries a ton of money, and his blending is probably a big part of that. He's the "sure bet", and I'd be willing to bet that he agrees to cater to a winery "vision."

As an aside, have you ever done a blending event with real decent wine? We had an Andy Erickson deal at Grailey's where he brought a ton of barrel samples of various wines that he uses in his Leviathan blend. We were in groups of five or so and tasked with coming up the "best" blend. I'll just leave it at "it's difficult" and that our table got into a lively debate over proportions that resulted in a vote between the two factions. My side lost the vote to my own Dad's side, our table's wine did not win the blend, I have not let my Dad live it down (like 8 years later).
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#25 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 19th, 2019, 9:42 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
I was curious and looked at Jeff’s website. It looked like many of the techniques such as use of amphora, destemming by hand and horse plows came much later. I’d love to hear from Jeff exactly what Rolland does there these days. A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
This is his role at a great many estates -- maybe the majority of the ones he lists as clients
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#26 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 9:44 am

K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:19 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
But even what you're doing is not necessarily the norm.
I never said I do commodity work!

;)

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#27 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 9:50 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:44 am
K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:19 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 6:20 am
A winery that I recently met with, said that Rolland flies in about twice per year to help with blending, that is all. I often wonder why a winemaker and winery owner would do that. On my primary matters, I still write the vast majority of my key work product. My name is on it.
But even what you're doing is not necessarily the norm.
I never said I do commodity work!

;)
I'd think leverage were the issue rather than commodity :)
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#28 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 9:55 am

Too much leverage, like everyone using Rolland instead of establishing their own imprimatur, nets ubiquity. More money, perhaps, if that’s the thing.

:)

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#29 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 19th, 2019, 10:00 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:55 am
Too much leverage, like everyone using Rolland instead of establishing their own imprimatur, nets ubiquity. More money, perhaps, if that’s the thing.

:)
Does it really though? Or is the idea that all Rolland wines taste the same just a meme?
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#30 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 10:04 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:55 am
Too much leverage, like everyone using Rolland instead of establishing their own imprimatur, nets ubiquity. More money, perhaps, if that’s the thing.

:)
I like to think law is more of a business to me than wine. I certainly don't spent time on the weekends reading contracts to see if associates in 2004 were greener than in 2011.

Anyway, I think we've let this digression go on long enough.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#31 Post by K John Joseph » August 19th, 2019, 10:18 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 10:00 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:55 am
Too much leverage, like everyone using Rolland instead of establishing their own imprimatur, nets ubiquity. More money, perhaps, if that’s the thing.

:)
Does it really though? Or is the idea that all Rolland wines taste the same just a meme?
I think it would be a sensational tasting to setup 18 wines. 6 wines are Rolland wines across a decent spectrum. 12 wines non-Rolland across a similar spectrum. Can you pick out the Rolland wines at any decent clip above just pure guess rate?
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#32 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 19th, 2019, 10:23 am

That would be fun.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#33 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 19th, 2019, 10:25 am

K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 10:18 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 10:00 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 9:55 am
Too much leverage, like everyone using Rolland instead of establishing their own imprimatur, nets ubiquity. More money, perhaps, if that’s the thing.

:)
Does it really though? Or is the idea that all Rolland wines taste the same just a meme?
I think it would be a sensational tasting to setup 18 wines. 6 wines are Rolland wines across a decent spectrum. 12 wines non-Rolland across a similar spectrum. Can you pick out the Rolland wines at any decent clip above just pure guess rate?
According to Alfert, you can't find 12 non-Rolland wines in bdx today
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#34 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 19th, 2019, 10:26 am

According to Alfert, you can't find 12 wines in Bordeaux. ;)
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#35 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 10:55 am

Lol. And I’d probably be the biggest failure in that blind tasting!

I get it, not all Rolland wines taste like the frankenwine that I suggest, but some do, especially many of his St Ems. This 2004 Pontet was not “Rollandized” that way, as I noted.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#36 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am

I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#37 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm

Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am
I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
I have an 05, gift from an associate.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#38 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 2:45 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am
I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Did you fire that associate on the spot for poor research skills? [rofl.gif]
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#39 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 3:06 pm

It was quite the scandal!

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#40 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 4:49 pm

So I saved 1/3 of the bottle for tonight. Meh.

My note and scoring are on point for this particular bottle. For my palate. And still major wafts of bell pepper, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Short, very drying finish.

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#41 Post by K John Joseph » August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am
I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#42 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 19th, 2019, 4:58 pm

K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am
I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
That associate was paid stoopid money. I should have gotten a case. [cheers.gif]

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#43 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 7:06 pm

K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 11:50 am
I think we should do a vertical of post 2005 Cos d'Estournel in Orlando, just for Robert.
I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
If it’s even anything like the 09 and 10 I had last month, it’s nigh undrinkable.

On a more serious note, I have serious questions about any 2nd growth from 2005 if it’s drinking well now. YMMV
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#44 Post by Greg K » August 19th, 2019, 7:07 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:58 pm
K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm


I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
That associate was paid stoopid money. I should have gotten a case. [cheers.gif]
Now that’s leverage. ;)
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#45 Post by K John Joseph » August 20th, 2019, 7:28 am

Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 7:06 pm
K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 1:17 pm


I have an 05, gift from an associate.
Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
If it’s even anything like the 09 and 10 I had last month, it’s nigh undrinkable.

On a more serious note, I have serious questions about any 2nd growth from 2005 if it’s drinking well now. YMMV
I am more inclined to drink bordeaux younger than most, I would guess, as I have decent tolerance for tannins. I've had many bottles of the 2005 Cos d'Estournel. I do not personally find it too heavy or sappy. It's just under 14% alcohol which I know is rather up there by Bordeaux standards but nothing like 9/10 where folks were hitting 15%. It's a wine that Jean-Guillaume Prats argued might be the greatest Cos ever made. You've got Neal Martin, Stephen Tanzer, and Jane Ansen at Decanter all raving about the wine, its ageability, and its "near perfect balancing acidity" and all rave about the age-worthy structure. So yeah, it has fruit and massive aromatics, but it's also got the acid and structure that 9/10 probably don't have in balance.

Keep it, age it, enjoy it.

Or send it to me as a gift and I'll handle those things for you.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#46 Post by Dale Williams » August 20th, 2019, 7:35 am

I had the 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie a couple years ago and thought it a lovely bottle, with no roasted or stewed notes. I generally avoid 2003 Loire (and most of Europe) but this was quite good. Sounds like a cooked bottle.

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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#47 Post by Greg K » August 20th, 2019, 8:24 am

K John Joseph wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 7:28 am
Greg K wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 7:06 pm
K John Joseph wrote:
August 19th, 2019, 4:56 pm


Oh man that's a dynamite bottle of wine. Send it to me if you're out on that.
If it’s even anything like the 09 and 10 I had last month, it’s nigh undrinkable.

On a more serious note, I have serious questions about any 2nd growth from 2005 if it’s drinking well now. YMMV
I am more inclined to drink bordeaux younger than most, I would guess, as I have decent tolerance for tannins. I've had many bottles of the 2005 Cos d'Estournel. I do not personally find it too heavy or sappy. It's just under 14% alcohol which I know is rather up there by Bordeaux standards but nothing like 9/10 where folks were hitting 15%. It's a wine that Jean-Guillaume Prats argued might be the greatest Cos ever made. You've got Neal Martin, Stephen Tanzer, and Jane Ansen at Decanter all raving about the wine, its ageability, and its "near perfect balancing acidity" and all rave about the age-worthy structure. So yeah, it has fruit and massive aromatics, but it's also got the acid and structure that 9/10 probably don't have in balance.

Keep it, age it, enjoy it.

Or send it to me as a gift and I'll handle those things for you.
The only rule of wine is “drink what you like”, and I don’t like newer Cos. Which is why I expect I won’t enjoy the 05.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#48 Post by K John Joseph » August 20th, 2019, 8:51 am

Greg K wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 8:24 am

The only rule of wine is “drink what you like”, and I don’t like newer Cos. Which is why I expect I won’t enjoy the 05.
Then wait ten years and it won't be new anymore.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#49 Post by Greg K » August 20th, 2019, 9:06 am

K John Joseph wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 8:51 am
Greg K wrote:
August 20th, 2019, 8:24 am

The only rule of wine is “drink what you like”, and I don’t like newer Cos. Which is why I expect I won’t enjoy the 05.
Then wait ten years and it won't be new anymore.
By "new" I meant post circa 2000 Cos. As in, the new style.
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Re: TNs: 2004 Ch. Pontet Canet, 2003 Joguet Clos de la Dioterie

#50 Post by K John Joseph » August 20th, 2019, 9:27 am

It was a joke.
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