What red/white blends have you tried?

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Adam Frisch
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What red/white blends have you tried?

#1 Post by Adam Frisch » August 10th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Like Ken Zinns mentioned in hus Brumaire thread, there is a nascent trend of blends between red and white at some of these events. I tried local LA based winery Discovino's Free Your Mind, which is a Carignan/Riesling blend. It was fantastically drinkable and had an electrically bright red juice, almost like one of those Gatorades or Vitamin Waters. At the Raw Wine LA fair last year there were also a few I tried, but can't recall what they were called. I made the mistake of not spitting during that fair, so I was 'trollied' (as they say in England) by the end of it and could barely find my way out.

Anyone tried any of these?
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#2 Post by Danny L. » August 10th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Copain makes a 50/50 blend of Pinot Noir/Pinot Gris called P2. A friend and I used to buy quite a bit of it as a chilled summer red.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#3 Post by Tom DeBiase » August 10th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Adam, here is one that is different and delicious. It is called "Feints" from Ruth Lewandowski Wines. Evan Lewandowski is adept at making unusual blends that just work! Here is a description straight from the website:

"Working at once with all of the Piedmontese varieties found at Fox Hill, Feints is quite an unexpected wine. It's a co-fermentation of Dolcetto, Barbera, Nebbiolo and Arneis...yes, three reds and a white (and nearly 50% white each year)! Full carbonic maceration keeps things poppy, light on its feet and fresh. For all intents and purposes this is the complex light red wine go-to and truly couldn't be more gluggable".

I believe the 2018 was just released (or will be very soon).

https://www.ruthlewandowskiwines.com/

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#4 Post by GregT » August 10th, 2019, 1:45 pm

It may be a trend in some parts of the US, but it's very old school in Spain. I've had plenty. Try a rosado from Muga, Faustino, Lopez de Heredia, Bodegas las Orcas, Bodgas Ostatu, Viña Real or many others, and that's exactly what you'll be getting.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#5 Post by PeterH » August 10th, 2019, 2:18 pm

Dominio IV makes a Viognier with Syrah added called the Inverse, because it reverses the proportions of Cote Rotie inspired Syrahs with Viognier.
It is interesting, much weightier than a white wine, and not at all resembling a rose. It's most suitable for when you want red fruit flavors, but you want the wine chilled.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#6 Post by T Welch » August 10th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Chateauneuf-du-Pape and Chianti.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#7 Post by Ken Zinns » August 10th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Tom DeBiase wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 1:42 pm
Adam, here is one that is different and delicious. It is called "Feints" from Ruth Lewandowski Wines. Evan Lewandowski is adept at making unusual blends that just work! Here is a description straight from the website:

"Working at once with all of the Piedmontese varieties found at Fox Hill, Feints is quite an unexpected wine. It's a co-fermentation of Dolcetto, Barbera, Nebbiolo and Arneis...yes, three reds and a white (and nearly 50% white each year)! Full carbonic maceration keeps things poppy, light on its feet and fresh. For all intents and purposes this is the complex light red wine go-to and truly couldn't be more gluggable".

I believe the 2018 was just released (or will be very soon).

https://www.ruthlewandowskiwines.com/

Tom
Good call - really like this one. [cheers.gif]
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#8 Post by Mark Golodetz » August 10th, 2019, 2:59 pm

As well as Champagne, Cote Rotie and a few Australian blends. Clonakilla uses Viognier. I am sure there are others.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#9 Post by Ken Zinns » August 10th, 2019, 3:19 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:59 pm
As well as Champagne, Cote Rotie and a few Australian blends. Clonakilla uses Viognier. I am sure there are others.
What Adam is referring to in his original post is not something like Côte-Rôtie, but a wine with large percentages of both red and white varieties. Champagne and many other sparklers would qualify though the question here is really about still wines.

Just off the top of my head, there’s La Clarine Farm “Mo-Ma” blend of Mourvèdre and Marsanne, and Vesper “Mar-Cin” that’s Marsanne and Cinsaut. One I recall from Brumaire was the Zumo “Flower Face” Tempranillo-Muscat blend, and I’m sure I came across others at that tasting too.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#10 Post by William Kelley » August 11th, 2019, 6:11 am

One fun bottling is Julien Guillot's Cuvée 910 - Chardonnay, Gamay, Pinot Noir, and possibly some other things, made as Julien imagines the monks who first cultivated his estate made their wines. The 2018 is fleshy and delicious.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#11 Post by Paul Fountain » August 11th, 2019, 6:46 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:59 pm
As well as Champagne, Cote Rotie and a few Australian blends. Clonakilla uses Viognier. I am sure there are others.
Clonakilla is definitely the poster child for red/white blends in Australia but there are no shortage of them. Mostly, the % of Viogner is pretty low in these sorts of blends as it tends to stick out a bit (often too much for my liking). Unsurprisingly, Yalumba does more than one version, given they have more or less championed Viognier here.
It would be interesting to have a look at the Ravensworth Shiraz Viogner given that Bryan Martin's day job is at Clonakilla. He also makes a blend called the Tinderry where the 2018 at least was a blend of Cab Franc and Sauv Blanc. I haven't tried either, but on the strength of some of his other wines I'd give them a go.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#12 Post by CJ Beazley » August 11th, 2019, 6:53 am

Flowers perennial-pinot noir, syrah, pinot meunier, chardonnay.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#13 Post by Tom DeBiase » August 11th, 2019, 6:56 am

William Kelley wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 6:11 am
One fun bottling is Julien Guillot's Cuvée 910 - Chardonnay, Gamay, Pinot Noir, and possibly some other things, made as Julien imagines the monks who first cultivated his estate made their wines. The 2018 is fleshy and delicious.
Thanks for the tip William. Reading a bit about this Cuvée it sounds pretty delicious especially during the dog days of summer.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#14 Post by Ken Zinns » August 11th, 2019, 7:15 am

Just checking my notes from this year's Brumaire tasting in Oakland, and spotted one more that has not already been noted above - Caleb Leisure's 2018 “Ab Ovo” blend of 70% Mourvèdre + 30% Marsanne.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#15 Post by Robert Sand » August 11th, 2019, 8:57 am

T Welch wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Chateauneuf-du-Pape and Chianti.
Does Cote-Rotie count?
Also in quite a few CdP is a tiny amount of white grapes, in Chianti less and less Canaiolo is used, but there are still some.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#16 Post by Jim Marmion » August 11th, 2019, 10:09 am

I had the K Vintners Charlotte recently. Essentially a Rhone blend but with a small percentage of Picpoul and Grenache Blanc in the mix. I drank it over several days. Certainly a novel wine and plenty of expression there but ultimately the white additions were just a little too jarring for me.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#17 Post by Ken Zinns » August 11th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Robert Sand wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 8:57 am
T Welch wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Chateauneuf-du-Pape and Chianti.
Does Cote-Rotie count?
Also in quite a few CdP is a tiny amount of white grapes, in Chianti less and less Canaiolo is used, but there are still some.
Not really what’s being discussed here, as noted earlier. The wines Adam and I both have in mind have significant percentages of both red and white varieties. I believe the smallest percentage of either red or white in the blends I’ve mentioned in this discussion is 25% white in the Zumo “Flower Face” - others have 30% or more of a white variety or varieties in the blend.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#18 Post by William Kelley » August 11th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Tom DeBiase wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 6:56 am
William Kelley wrote:
August 11th, 2019, 6:11 am
One fun bottling is Julien Guillot's Cuvée 910 - Chardonnay, Gamay, Pinot Noir, and possibly some other things, made as Julien imagines the monks who first cultivated his estate made their wines. The 2018 is fleshy and delicious.
Thanks for the tip William. Reading a bit about this Cuvée it sounds pretty delicious especially during the dog days of summer.

Tom
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#19 Post by PeterH » August 12th, 2019, 12:16 pm

Does a Pinot Gris made as a red wine count? Vincent Fritzsche has one, which I have not tasted.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#20 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 12:42 pm

PeterH wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 12:16 pm
Does a Pinot Gris made as a red wine count? Vincent Fritzsche has one, which I have not tasted.
No, whole different category - that would be more of an orange wine. I've worked on a couple of skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines in the past.

Really looking at wines with at least one red and one white variety in a blend, with a significant percentage of each included (let's say minimum 25-30% white variety or varieties, since many of these blends tend to include somewhat more red than white).
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#21 Post by Bryan Carr » August 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Sanguis in Santa Barbara makes a few, all their blends are sort of wacky.
I had a Cote Rotie in 2017 called Marions Les! from Domaine Corps de Loup which was a full 20% Viognier so I think it counts.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#22 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 2:38 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm
Sanguis in Santa Barbara makes a few, all their blends are sort of wacky.
I had a Cote Rotie in 2017 called Marions Les! from Domaine Corps de Loup which was a full 20% Viognier so I think it counts.
Wow, that’s a lot of Viognier for a C-R - I agree that could be included in this category. Did the Viognier component stand out in that wine?
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#23 Post by Bryan Carr » August 12th, 2019, 3:08 pm

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 2:38 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 1:53 pm
Sanguis in Santa Barbara makes a few, all their blends are sort of wacky.
I had a Cote Rotie in 2017 called Marions Les! from Domaine Corps de Loup which was a full 20% Viognier so I think it counts.
Wow, that’s a lot of Viognier for a C-R - I agree that could be included in this category. Did the Viognier component stand out in that wine?
Honestly if I hadn't had any of their other wines at the same time I might not have thought so, it would have just read as a particularly floral and open-knit CR. In comparison with their 100% syrah bottling yes, it was quite a bit more chugable, but it didn't taste freakish or left-field. We'd had the just-bottled 2015 Rostaing Cote Roties earlier in the day and they were massively expressive and floral so I think my brain was primed for syrah wines that leapt out of the glass. Only after we'd tasted the Corps de Loup 100% Syrah could we pick out the difference.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#24 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm

On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#25 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#26 Post by Wes Barton » August 12th, 2019, 5:06 pm

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
The Pinot Days I went to a few years ago had a couple from Oregon. Quite good.

If you recall, a few of the old world whites that have made our brown bag tastings have included a red variety or two.

Interestingly, many of the examples above in this thread are the flip-side of that, where the white grapes are fermented on their skins (and often co-fermented).
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#27 Post by William Kelley » August 12th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
Martin Ray, precursor of Mount Eden, used to say that still Blanc de Noirs was the ultimate wine for cold ham and turkey. I'm convinced it could be very interesting in parts of CA that struggle to get phenolic ripeness with reasonable sugars.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#28 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 7:21 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
The Pinot Days I went to a few years ago had a couple from Oregon. Quite good.

If you recall, a few of the old world whites that have made our brown bag tastings have included a red variety or two.

Interestingly, many of the examples above in this thread are the flip-side of that, where the white grapes are fermented on their skins (and often co-fermented).
I may have had a Pinot Noir Blanc from elsewhere than Anderson Valley though I don’t specifically recall any.

We certainly have had some whites with a small percentage of red varieties, though not sure they’ve been a large enough percentage to be the sort of wine I’m thinking about. And I’m sure you’re right about some of the wines mentioned having skin-fermented whites in the blend.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#29 Post by Al Osterheld » August 12th, 2019, 8:56 pm

I've tried a couple of vintages of the Lichen PN/PG blend, generally quite nice.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#30 Post by PeterH » August 12th, 2019, 9:10 pm

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 12:42 pm
PeterH wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 12:16 pm
Does a Pinot Gris made as a red wine count? Vincent Fritzsche has one, which I have not tasted.
No, whole different category - that would be more of an orange wine. I've worked on a couple of skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines in the past.

Really looking at wines with at least one red and one white variety in a blend, with a significant percentage of each included (let's say minimum 25-30% white variety or varieties, since many of these blends tend to include somewhat more red than white).
I hope Vincent jumps in and comments, because I don't think this is an orange wine as I would define it. There are plenty of Pinot Gris "rose" wines made with some skin contact, some with lots of exposure to oxygen, some not. I get the impression that this one is made with skins included in the entire fermentation. It is another take on the spectrum of making Pinot Noir as a red, rose, or white wine. I admit that it doesn't meet the description of red/white blend technically, but encompasses the spirit.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#31 Post by Adam Frisch » August 12th, 2019, 9:17 pm

Nice to hear your tips. I'll see if I can get my hands on some of that Clonakilla and Ravensworth stuff, they sound interesting.

Observation: If we just gave up our obsession for deep colors in reds, a lot of possibilities would open up, I think. I don't even know where that comes from, to be honest. Why is a deep red color more desirable than a less deep one? Why do we always complement a shitty wine on its deep color, whilst faulting a good tasting wine for not having a deep enough one? Is it because the deeper color in our minds relate to more red and dark fruit flavors? Is there really a correlation between depth of color and any specific flavors? Actually, there are some. A deeply purple/blackish wine tends to be lower in acid. A redder wine, tends to have higher acid. Is that what's driving the color obsession towards deeper reds, subconsciously?
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#32 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 9:33 pm

PeterH wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 9:10 pm
Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 12:42 pm
PeterH wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 12:16 pm
Does a Pinot Gris made as a red wine count? Vincent Fritzsche has one, which I have not tasted.
No, whole different category - that would be more of an orange wine. I've worked on a couple of skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines in the past.

Really looking at wines with at least one red and one white variety in a blend, with a significant percentage of each included (let's say minimum 25-30% white variety or varieties, since many of these blends tend to include somewhat more red than white).
I hope Vincent jumps in and comments, because I don't think this is an orange wine as I would define it. There are plenty of Pinot Gris "rose" wines made with some skin contact, some with lots of exposure to oxygen, some not. I get the impression that this one is made with skins included in the entire fermentation. It is another take on the spectrum of making Pinot Noir as a red, rose, or white wine. I admit that it doesn't meet the description of red/white blend technically, but encompasses the spirit.
Whether you want to call this an orange wine or not really is beside the point. Some only consider skin-fermented whites that undergo oxidation to be true orange wines though I don’t see the oxidation part of it as essential. The skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines I’ve worked on went completely through primary fermentation on the skins as well, but this type of wine is entirely different than a red-white blend.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#33 Post by Chris Seiber » August 12th, 2019, 10:04 pm

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
Isn’t that just a conventional pinot noir rose under a different name?

Maybe it’s a little more light version of one - some producers will allow some cold soak before pressing, or put a bit of still red into it

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#34 Post by Ken Zinns » August 12th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 10:04 pm
Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:45 pm
Ben M a n d l e r wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm
On a weekend trip to Anderson Valley this weekend, one of the standouts was a wine from Lichen, Les Pinots Noir & Gris, 60% Pinot Noir and 40% Pinot Gris. All immediately pressed off the skins so no hint of red in the color, but a great acid-richness balance, smoky-creamy in the mid-palate.
Sounds like an interesting wine. Several Anderson Valley wineries have made a “Pinot Noir Blanc” over the past 8-10 years, from Pinot Noir fruit pressed right away. Not sure I’ve seen that anywhere else.
Isn’t that just a conventional pinot noir rose under a different name?

Maybe it’s a little more light version of one - some producers will allow some cold soak before pressing, or put a bit of still red into it
Not quite the same since there is no skin contact at all, direct press so there is no pink color to the wine at all. I’ve never worked on this type of wine but I’d think you would need to be careful not to break up berries before loading the clusters into the press, maybe be more selective about just what goes into the press for this type of wine.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#35 Post by Otto Forsberg » August 13th, 2019, 3:11 am

Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 9:33 pm
Whether you want to call this an orange wine or not really is beside the point. Some only consider skin-fermented whites that undergo oxidation to be true orange wines though I don’t see the oxidation part of it as essential. The skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines I’ve worked on went completely through primary fermentation on the skins as well, but this type of wine is entirely different than a red-white blend.
While some skin-contact whites / amber wines / orange wines do have somewhat oxidative character, it certainly isn't necessary for the style. I've had tons of deep amber-colored wines that have exhibited no oxidative character whatsoever. Thinking that orange wines "must" be oxidative is as ridiculous as thinking that fortified wines need to be oxidative just because Madeiras, Tawny Ports and Oloroso Sherries are.
Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 10:18 pm
Not quite the same since there is no skin contact at all, direct press so there is no pink color to the wine at all. I’ve never worked on this type of wine but I’d think you would need to be careful not to break up berries before loading the clusters into the press, maybe be more selective about just what goes into the press for this type of wine.
"Blanc de Noirs" Spätburgunders have been a big thing for many years in Germany - can't remember how many I've tasted. And although the name might conjure images of Champagne, the wines are usually still whites made from Pinot Noir (there are lots of other red varieties used as well, but they seem to get exported quite seldom).

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#36 Post by Ken Zinns » August 13th, 2019, 7:02 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 3:11 am
"Blanc de Noirs" Spätburgunders have been a big thing for many years in Germany - can't remember how many I've tasted. And although the name might conjure images of Champagne, the wines are usually still whites made from Pinot Noir (there are lots of other red varieties used as well, but they seem to get exported quite seldom).
Thanks for this info, Otto - I wasn't aware of that but I suppose it's really not so surprising.

Though it's getting off the main topic here, I have tasted the La Onda 2017 "Blanco de Tinto" from the northern Sierra Foothills, which is whole-cluster pressed Cabernet Sauvignon. I've also had the Broc Cellars Lagrein - not quite the same since it does get very short skin contact before pressing, and with a variety as dark as Lagrein even that gives it plenty of color, like a medium-dark rosé. Perhaps it's time to start a separate discussion on "Blanc de Noirs" still wines?
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#37 Post by Wes Barton » August 13th, 2019, 2:13 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 3:11 am
Ken Zinns wrote:
August 12th, 2019, 9:33 pm
Whether you want to call this an orange wine or not really is beside the point. Some only consider skin-fermented whites that undergo oxidation to be true orange wines though I don’t see the oxidation part of it as essential. The skin-fermented Pinot Gris wines I’ve worked on went completely through primary fermentation on the skins as well, but this type of wine is entirely different than a red-white blend.
While some skin-contact whites / amber wines / orange wines do have somewhat oxidative character, it certainly isn't necessary for the style. I've had tons of deep amber-colored wines that have exhibited no oxidative character whatsoever. Thinking that orange wines "must" be oxidative is as ridiculous as thinking that fortified wines need to be oxidative just because Madeiras, Tawny Ports and Oloroso Sherries are.
Didn't we discuss this before? The question is the terminology: Should the broad category of skin contact wines be called "orange wines" or should "orange wine" refer to the subset that are oxidative?

Our concern, having made some, is to avoid a stigmatizing term that implies the wine is contrary to what it is. People around here who know that term think oxidative. Ours aren't, so we've put "skin contact" in small print on the whites and "Ramato styled Pinot Gris" in small print under its proprietary name. Saying they're orange wines would make it less clear what they're about.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#38 Post by Otto Forsberg » August 13th, 2019, 10:14 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:13 pm
Didn't we discuss this before? The question is the terminology: Should the broad category of skin contact wines be called "orange wines" or should "orange wine" refer to the subset that are oxidative?

Our concern, having made some, is to avoid a stigmatizing term that implies the wine is contrary to what it is. People around here who know that term think oxidative. Ours aren't, so we've put "skin contact" in small print on the whites and "Ramato styled Pinot Gris" in small print under its proprietary name. Saying they're orange wines would make it less clear what they're about.
I guess, it's terminology, since you seem to have decided that for some reason, oxidative orange wines are somehow a key part of this genre.

That's why I just leave this piece here: Orange wines It's by Simon Woolf, an authority of sorts when it comes to orange wines / amber wines / skin contact whites. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but - from what I've witnessed - that text seems to reflect the sentiment of a larger part of consumers.

Anyhow, I understand immediately what one means if the wine is labeled as "Ramato styled". However, I'm not so sure how many pedestrian customers have ever heard of "Ramato", while a term "orange wine" might ring some bells.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#39 Post by Chris Seiber » August 14th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Peter Cargasacchi had a lower price label called Point Concepcion, and it had a "rose" which was something like half and half a red and white wine. It was actually pretty good for a basic, inexpensive quaffer.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#40 Post by Frank Drew » August 14th, 2019, 2:59 pm

T Welch wrote:
August 10th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Chateauneuf-du-Pape and Chianti.
Not many winemakers in either appellation use white grapes in their red wines. It used to be required in Chianti but they wisely dropped that requirement some years ago.
Aside from Beaucastel, only a few producers in Chateauneuf use the allowed white grapes.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#41 Post by Wes Barton » August 14th, 2019, 4:20 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 10:14 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
August 13th, 2019, 2:13 pm
Didn't we discuss this before? The question is the terminology: Should the broad category of skin contact wines be called "orange wines" or should "orange wine" refer to the subset that are oxidative?

Our concern, having made some, is to avoid a stigmatizing term that implies the wine is contrary to what it is. People around here who know that term think oxidative. Ours aren't, so we've put "skin contact" in small print on the whites and "Ramato styled Pinot Gris" in small print under its proprietary name. Saying they're orange wines would make it less clear what they're about.
I guess, it's terminology, since you seem to have decided that for some reason, oxidative orange wines are somehow a key part of this genre.

That's why I just leave this piece here: Orange wines It's by Simon Woolf, an authority of sorts when it comes to orange wines / amber wines / skin contact whites. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but - from what I've witnessed - that text seems to reflect the sentiment of a larger part of consumers.

Anyhow, I understand immediately what one means if the wine is labeled as "Ramato styled". However, I'm not so sure how many pedestrian customers have ever heard of "Ramato", while a term "orange wine" might ring some bells.
I don't know comprehensively, but I've read for some countries, the literal translation is "amber wine". According to Wikipedia: "The popular term "Orange wine" was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004." So, I'd argue "amber" is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn't imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn't make people think it's a citrus wine.

"Ramato" is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#42 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » August 14th, 2019, 4:31 pm

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#43 Post by Otto Forsberg » August 14th, 2019, 10:10 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 4:20 pm
I don't know comprehensively, but I've read for some countries, the literal translation is "amber wine". According to Wikipedia: "The popular term "Orange wine" was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004." So, I'd argue "amber" is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn't imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn't make people think it's a citrus wine.
You forgot 6) Doesn't make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.
"Ramato" is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.
I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers "orange wine" would tell immediately what style the wine is, but "Ramato" instead to a very limited number of people. I really don't see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#44 Post by Wes Barton » August 15th, 2019, 12:33 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 10:10 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 4:20 pm
I don't know comprehensively, but I've read for some countries, the literal translation is "amber wine". According to Wikipedia: "The popular term "Orange wine" was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004." So, I'd argue "amber" is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn't imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn't make people think it's a citrus wine.
You forgot 6) Doesn't make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.
"Ramato" is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.
I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers "orange wine" would tell immediately what style the wine is, but "Ramato" instead to a very limited number of people. I really don't see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.
I take it you think point #5 is silly, but that only means you don't have any experience pouring wine at tastings. I guarantee you more people will hear "This is our orange wine" and think it's made from oranges than will know what an "orange wine" is. That repeated person-to-person interaction is where you pick up peoples' misconceptions and hone your ways to introduce the wines briefly in ways that will intrigue the so inclined and inspire a discussion with some, while not causing others to glaze over.
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#45 Post by Otto Forsberg » August 15th, 2019, 3:48 am

Wes Barton wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 12:33 am
Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 10:10 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
August 14th, 2019, 4:20 pm
I don't know comprehensively, but I've read for some countries, the literal translation is "amber wine". According to Wikipedia: "The popular term "Orange wine" was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004." So, I'd argue "amber" is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn't imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn't make people think it's a citrus wine.
You forgot 6) Doesn't make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.
"Ramato" is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.
I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers "orange wine" would tell immediately what style the wine is, but "Ramato" instead to a very limited number of people. I really don't see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.
I take it you think point #5 is silly, but that only means you don't have any experience pouring wine at tastings. I guarantee you more people will hear "This is our orange wine" and think it's made from oranges than will know what an "orange wine" is. That repeated person-to-person interaction is where you pick up peoples' misconceptions and hone your ways to introduce the wines briefly in ways that will intrigue the so inclined and inspire a discussion with some, while not causing others to glaze over.
Now you're just making wrong assumptions. I've been ITB for close to a decade and poured a fair share of wines at tastings. I've never needed to explain that an orange wine isn't made of oranges, but that's most likely because the color and the fruit are completely differnt words in Finnish. However, I've needed to explain to a customer that an Australian wine that was labeled as "Chardonnay, Orange" in a brochure was not an orange wine but instead a Chardonnay from Orange, New South Wales. Hence, my point, written only part in jest.

If customers are confused when pouring an orange wine, it is only because they've never encountered the term before. It's only a matter of learning and education. They won't be similarly confused the next time they encounter the term.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#46 Post by Wes Barton » August 15th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 3:48 am
I've never needed to explain that an orange wine isn't made of oranges, but that's most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.
Yet, you're arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn't confusing, and is the literal translation of what's used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#47 Post by Ken Zinns » August 15th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 4:34 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 3:48 am
I've never needed to explain that an orange wine isn't made of oranges, but that's most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.
Yet, you're arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn't confusing, and is the literal translation of what's used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?
I agree that orange wine is a confusing though currently fairly common term. Amber wine is the preferred description for Georgian whites made in that style and probably a better term. I typically just describe them as skin-fermented whites and leave it at that, but people seem to like a category of ____ wine. Maybe that's it, they'll be blank wines like Richard Hell's "Blank Generation" - fill in the blank with whatever you want. [wink.gif]
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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#48 Post by Nate Simon » August 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Fine Disregard includes some Semillon in their Syrah, and it’s plenty nice.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#49 Post by Otto Forsberg » August 16th, 2019, 1:15 am

Wes Barton wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 4:34 pm
Otto Forsberg wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 3:48 am
I've never needed to explain that an orange wine isn't made of oranges, but that's most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.
Yet, you're arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn't confusing, and is the literal translation of what's used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?
"Sounds better" is a completely subjective term and thus a rather moot point as an argument. And I really didn't really catch which term are you referring to with a "literal translation of what's used elsewhere for millennia".

However, you seem to have understood me all wrong. I'm not here vouching for the exclusive use of the term "orange wine", I'm just saying it is a term used interchangeably with "amber wine" and "skin-contact whites" all around the world and pointing out that out of those three, "orange wine" seems to be the most popular one. I'm also perfectly fine with using "Ramato" as well, but only if the wine in question bears some relation to this rather obscure style of Northern Italian wine.

My biggest beef is that whenever orange wines / amber wines / skin-contact whites are mentioned here, you seem to be always bringing up the point about oxidized orange wines and how the term should refer exclusively to those wines, which sounds not only weird but plain wrong to my ears.

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Re: What red/white blends have you tried?

#50 Post by G. Greenbaum » August 16th, 2019, 8:39 am

Most, if not all, of the Friuli and Slovinian skin contact wines I've had, and I've visited wineries in these areas, were non-oxidized.
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