Let's talk wine club/mailing list structures.

Starting to draw up the lines on how to structure mine, so wanted to get some feedback to try to avoid pitfalls or unpleasant structures.

What I personally dislike is when they charge you way ahead of release and shipping. I just feel like I’m financing their winery for them. Plus, if it’s that far ahead, what’s to say they might even be in business 2 months from now? I’m not a bank.

Let me know any or all of your general thoughts, but I will ask these few direct questions as well:

  1. Do you prefer more than 2 shipments per year?

  2. Would you like to be able to specify if you only want reds or whites?

  3. Would you like to be able to specify each wine, like on an a la carte menu, for each shipment?

  4. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the lowest tier membership?

  5. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the highest tier membership?

  6. Do you think the membership list should have more than 2 tiers?

  7. What’s more important - getting discount or getting early access?

  8. How important is it to get wines in the form of specials that will only get released to members? Or doesn’t it matter if they also later are available to non-members?

Thanks!

I do not do clubs, only lists. I want to buy the wines I want and not be forced to buy the ones I do not want as some clubs do.

I want to be able to mix and match as I please.

I want to order a three pack this release and a case the next release. I understand minimum orders of say a three pack, but I do not like when it is a three pack of one wine (although I usually buy 2-3 of each wine, I do not like being forced to do it).

Two releases a year is enough.

Discounts are nice, but if I like the wine I am going to buy it anyways.

I am not concerned about early access, just access.

I only care about ‘special’ releases if they are really something I want. I do not care if someone can walk into the winery and buy it. Is it something I am willing to pay a special price for?

I’m not a huge fan of clubs. I probably drink about 100 bottles a year and like to research/select each one. I’ve had some great wines from club shipments that I would not have picked. But, I like to pick each one.

Three packs don’t bother me. I always buy more than one bottle. I think that’s the best way to get a feel for the wine.

I live in Texas, so I really can’t get more than 2 shipments per year. I never drink wine when I get it, so waiting a few months isn’t a big deal.

I don’t like to finance wine either, but if I get charged in the same month it ships that’s fine.

Early access is great. If the members don’t buy all the wine, the vineyard should have the chance to sell it to the public.

You are financing their winery. That’s what customers do. They have two to three years of money invested in each release. Releases are normally done before bottling in order to fund bottling, pay the liquor tax, pay employees, buy new barrels, pay for bottles, labels, capsules, corks etc… You think you can just print some up and pay the bills?

Ideally:

  1. I think 2 is a good amount, but I care more about the total amount of bottles and what bottles I’m getting than how many shipments there are.

2 - 3. Ideally, I’d like to chose the bottles that I get. For example, I don’t really like rose, so I’m not going to be happy if a winery forces me to buy some rose; I might love your Rhone varietals, but think your Pinots are not worth the price. The more bottles that I get from the winery that I don’t enjoy or don’t think are worth the price, the more likely I am to drop my membership. While having the winery chose my bottles might help me expand my horizons or be pleasantly surprised, I think I’d likely be more satisfied if I chose the bottles.

  1. The lower the commitment, the easier it is for me to join. Sure 6 bottles twice/year isn’t bad, but if I can do 3 twice/year, I might join to support good and/or local people/winery even if it’s not the beat wine or deal.

  2. I generally wouldn’t care what the minimum for the highest tier membership is unless it includes a lot of perks or if it’s the only way to get the wine I want. I’d almost always prefer to have a lower minimum with the option to add on.

  3. In my opinion, the more options the better as long as it doesn’t get too complicated or too demanding. An example of something I don’t really love is how Booker has their normal club and then one just for My Favorite Neighbor.

  4. Discount. Unless the wine is excellent and extremely hard to get without early access, I don’t care about early access. I’ll probably lay most of the bottles down anyway.

  5. If some/all of the winery’s best wines are small releases that are sold out before they get to the general public, I would be tempted to join to get these bottles. I wouldn’t necessarily mind if I buy a “members only” bottle and then later see that it’s released to the general public, but if I realize I can get the bottles I want for the same or better price without being a member, I have less of a reason to become/remain a member.

If you’re making wine in Los Angeles, please let us know when we can come get a taste!

Also, when I buy off a list, I like to pay for wine rather than shipping and salaries.

For my winery, by charging everyone at each of our mailing list or wine club offers I can manage a bunch of paperwork, set aside wines, and get my shipping packed in a single week(or close to it).
If I charge when it ships, that often works out to being a slew of orders spread out over 2 separate 3 month periods.


Regarding “feeling” like you’re financing the winery, it’s just not the case.

You’ve elected to purchase a product, and in order for you to receive the wines in pristine condition the seller is holding them for you until the shipping method you prefer(ground) is available. I am more than happy to ship you a case of wine(or 3 bottles) via next day air or 2nd day air if you are ready to take possession of your purchase immediately.

While the delays in weather are no fun for the guests, list, and club members, it’s also work storing and making sure the wines are removed from sales inventory, while still remaining on the premises.

Most of my club members and mailing list members prefer to use their money on the wines, and minimize shipping. They enjoy the fact that I will store their purchase for them until weather permits a cost effective delivery to their door.

We also offer both list and club members a menu to choose their preferences. I don’t like sending people wines other than the wines they want. Mailing list can choose however many wines they would like(although a 12 bottle case is a shipping efficiency and I usually offer a break on that quantity, for wine club and list offers to help offset the rising costs of UPS and FedEx) and they receive release pricing for a set period of time(usually 4 days). Wine club members buy 12btls per year, but receive club pricing year round.

I probably drink about 100 bottles a year and like to research/select each one.

And why not? Many of us do the same thing. I don’t buy any wine unless I know the scores and the board consensus! [cheers.gif]

I buy directly from many California wineries, but have not ever - and would not ever - be on a list that I didn’t get to pick what I bought. In fact, I have dropped off a few mailing lists that required 3-pack purchases of specific wines without any flexibility (such as 2 of 1, 1 of another, or buying 4 rather than 6).

I don’t think most people here are members of wine clubs in the model that you describe (regular required purchases of wines selected by the winery).

I like the mailing list approach as I do not want to be forced to buy X number of bottles every single release. Sometimes money or cellar space is tight and I recognize this in my ordering patterns.

2 shipments per year is fine.

I do like the a la carte menu v being forced to buy something specific.

In terms of how many bottles to ship per tier, that’s a wine club membership or order threshold. I respect this as it allows the winery to reward bigger spenders with free tastings, winery exclusive events, cheaper shipments, etc.

I think getting a discount is going to be more important than early access. The only time early access matters is when there is a limited amount of wine available. Sometimes if you don’t order as soon as you get the release email wine sells out rapidly. Maybe give a one day head start for your repeat customers.

Special bottlings are indeed special. I would be interested in special bottlings from the wineries I’m ordering from.

One more note, shipping. I have seen some super expensive freight for under full case shipments. One winery wanted a $10/bottle average for freight from NorCal to SoCal. I ended up discontinuing purchasing from that winery due to the high cost of shipping. Shipping costs should be fair and reasonable.

Do wine clubs still force unwanted bottles on you? Maybe i am not looking hard enough but none of the clubs I know do that. Everything is customizable.

  1. Do you prefer more than 2 shipments per year? 2 is just right.

  2. Would you like to be able to specify if you only want reds or whites? Yes

  3. Would you like to be able to specify each wine, like on an a la carte menu, for each shipment? Yes

  4. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the lowest tier membership? 3

  5. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the highest tier membership? 12

  6. Do you think the membership list should have more than 2 tiers? yes

  7. What’s more important - getting discount or getting early access? discount

  8. How important is it to get wines in the form of specials that will only get released to members? Or doesn’t it matter if they also later are available to non-members? not that important

Speaking with my wife (who has been a wine club and operations manager in the Willamette Valley for more than 10 years), her guess is that 35-40% of her club members say they want the option to choose their wines, but only 10-15% actually change the shipment from the standard release.

Was going to write it up, but realized I’d be saying the same as above.

I think it breaks down to most people here are going to want an “a la carte” list structure.
If you’re looking at “wine club membership” you’re aiming for people less familiar with wine than those who would frequent the boards here.

This!

Answering from ITB rather than as a customer preference.

Tiering seems to be an important part but clubs can become a huge nightmare (mostly with managing the multiple communication emails at release time and fulfillment errors) with the myriad options I have to keep track of to keep customers happy. Available software easily handles custom club orders and tiering these days. It is a necessity though for higher retention of the best clients and trying to project income. Better to have a low tier that you can forecast you are going to have a lot of churn on and see the more reliable projected income at the higher tiers.

Adam,

I, as others, am not a member of any clubs for a number of reasons. Mainly I do not like the economics of it, having set fees/structures minimum purchases etc. My general predicament with wine and why I avoid clubs or any winery that forces you in to minimum purchase, is that my want/wish list of wine vastly exceeds my available budget. I would much rather cherry pick from wineries and vineyard sites I enjoy and get the best deals possible. An example of this regarding the Napa Valley would be the wines produced by Mike Smith (Myriad/Quivet) from GIII, Dr. Crane, and Las Piedras vineyards, as I find they are better priced then a lot of other producers from the same sites and of a higher quality.

So my preference is to sign up for lists that allow me to buy what I like. If by chance I miss an allocation or somehow have some extra cash to spend on wine, then the answer for me is simple. Go to my local wine shop and pick up some age worthy, widely available offerings, such as a BV Latour, VHR, Togni, Mondavi To-Kalon, etc and forget about them in the cellar for a decade.

Hope this helps

As a brand new winery, I think you will probably need to start out mostly mailing list as opposed to club until people get to know your wines and style. It’s also worth some thought about how to best get your wines in front of people. Marketing is the hardest part of the business for most new, small wineries.

-Al

I think you also need to take in to consideration the differences in why people choose clubs. In many cases it is to participate in the growth story, go to club events and meet (new) friends that you have a common bond with as well as having access to wines not available to regular customers. I find those are the clients that you will retain. We have many with us from our start 10 years ago but that is because of the relationship we have built with our events as well as the wine. Lists are a whole different ballgame. They can rely on scores, your ability to get in front of the press and PR and can be hard to get off the ground unless you already have some hip story or are already have created a cult brand. Also, they can be hazardous for projecting income.

FIFY [rofl.gif]

I don’t purchase from lists anymore, partly as a result of a palate shift to more old world wines. Nonetheless, I will answer:

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  1. Do you prefer more than 2 shipments per year? - No. Shipping is expensive, and I can almost always do better by consolidating purchases.

  2. Would you like to be able to specify if you only want reds or whites? - Yes. We drink far more red than white. Plus, not every winery does red and white equally well.

  3. Would you like to be able to specify each wine, like on an a la carte menu, for each shipment? - Yes. If someone else is picking for me, I’d want a larger discount.

  4. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the lowest tier membership? - I don’t care. Given how expensive shipping can be in lower quantities, I don’t want to order less than 6 at a time. If you offer 3, than assuming that shipping is not free/highly subsidized, I would be more likely to look elsewhere. While I understand it’s psychological, I want to spend money on wine not shipping. Therefore, I’d rather pay $40 for a wine with free shipping, than have 25% off a $40 wine and pay $10/bottle for shipping.

  5. How many bottles do you want shipped as a minimum in the highest tier membership? - I don’t care. I like a lot of producers. It’s rare that I purchase more than 12 bottles from any given producer in a given year.

  6. Do you think the membership list should have more than 2 tiers? - I don’t care. I imagine tiers = discount levels. I’d probablly say no more than 3 though; otherwise it gets confusing for the consumer and a pain for you to manage.

  7. What’s more important - getting discount or getting early access? - Discount. I rarely drink my wines right away. If you’re storing them, that means I’m saving space.

  8. How important is it to get wines in the form of specials that will only get released to members? Or doesn’t it matter if they also later are available to non-members? - Not all that important. I am looking for wine that I like to drink at a food value; IDGAF about exclusivity. My guess is that is more appealing to guys who want to drop large money on wines like Ovid.

Don’t see this mentioned but I hate the first come-first served concept. If a release opens and I am not in a position to order as soon as the offer opens and I miss out on a bottle that I, and everyone else wants, it pisses me off. You don’t need to hold an allocation for weeks, or even a single week. Just give working folks a day or 2 to get their order placed before the herd clears out the barn.

Another key finding she has had is to limit the number of tiers/options of the club, even if you have customization options. One winery we worked with had something like 14 different club options, and that’s before any customization. It made it an absolute nightmare when processing the club orders.