I saw that. Definitely an interesting and informative article. Always fun to try to understand another aspect of the wine making process.
Nooooo, bring on the herbaceousness!
“In fact, the beautiful toasted oak notes of American oak can help cover some of the herbaceousness of cabernet sauvignon. Monte Bello is in a cool location, the Bordeaux grapes grown there can often have an element of herbaceousness”
This comment also caught me by surprise, as personally I think it is the exact opposite, and my one nit with Ridge, and Rioja:
“French oak contains mostly the aromatic compound vanillin, which gives wines a vanilla flavor. Due to the greater porosity of French oak, vanillin is intensely extracted into wine to a high degree. Its potency will make a wine taste monolithic and heavy. It will create a vail over a wine’s vineyard character or varietal notes. It’s akin to heavy use of cosmetics. American oak, if air-dried appropriately, will not show strong notes of dill or coconut.“
I was going to post that link but you beat me to it. I found it interesting, particularly the quotes Robert posted. Back in the the 70’s, maybe the American oak made sense with lower ripeness and more green character? I have not had any 70’s Ridge, but I have had close to thirty year old Ridge that showed a lot of dill. I would buy way more if it showed less oak, particularly the dill notes.
Your last point is exactly where I am at. I’ve been buying Ridge since the 1991 vintage was released. Used to buy tons of it. I’m now down to just a few bottles of Geyserville per year. There was a period when they were increasing the use of new American oak across the board, and it really showed. Was really pronounced in the Estate Cab. Turned me off. The Geezer always showed best notwithstanding.
I wish they’d cut back on the oak with their chardonnay. I think it could be really great, but the fruit can’t carry all that wood IMO.
When we were there last weekend I asked if they use French oak on any of their wines. They said there is a couple barrels and a very small amount is used in the Monte Bello blend. Aprox 1% iirc. I do like Ridge wines and am a member. I do wish they would make a wine or two every year with French oak and see how it goes. I much prefer French oak.
The Chard is a lot less oaky than it was 15 years ago. It still varies by vintage, where I like a few on release nowadays. They’re best with 10-15 years on them, where the oak is fully integrated.
The '14 Estate Cab is the one that really stood out. New oak didn’t suit that vintage, so they seem to have declassified all of it. None of the others have bothered me.
I wouldn’t mind less new oak in some of their wines. That can play a role in how long I want to wait to open one. But, at their peak, their wines are integrated where it’s a non-issue for me.
They do continue to experiment with oak. Some of their wines do have some French oak. I’ve had French oak samples of Monte Bello a couple times. One was less than. The other, more or less equal, but quite different, and didn’t seem like it would blend in well, and had a little less individuality. I’m pretty convinced most French oak wouldn’t be a good idea for them, but can think of a couple that work well with other SCM fruit.
Might be fun to do a comparison tasting of Monte Bello vs the Montebello Cabs Arnot-Roberts and I. Brand at some point.
I hope Mel chimes in.
Here’s another article.
But honestly, I don’t think there’s any black and white difference that most people will consistently be able to point out from tasting a wine. America is a huge place. Wood comes from Minnesota to Missouri. All “American oak” is not completely interchangeable.
France is a big place too, but they’ve identified specific forests, although apparently some Frenchmen prefer Latvian oak.
Some companies, like Kendall Jackson, bought woodland property in France for their barrels. Some companies make their own barrels. When you form the barrel, you can heat fast and hot and hot or low and slow. You can use steam or dry heat. There’s a lot that is going to affect the final barrel.
Eric describes the way he uses the character that he gets to complete his wine. But it’s like being a chef - people can use the same raw materials but by treating them differently and combining differently they end up with completely different dishes. I would never say I had a preference for one oak vs another without more context.
Older silver oaks I have had are like drinking from. Pickle barrel… no thanks. Of I had to choose lesser of two evils or a form of over oaked, will take vanilla over pickle any day of the week.
Of course, it isn’t just where the oak is grown. American oaks are of a different species than those grown in Europe.
Mel’s website has a good page on oaks and toasting, etc.: About French Oak Barrels
I will chime in when I wake up…probably around 530 this afternoon.
For now, I would point out that Silver Oak bought a cooperage in Missouri whereas Ridge buys barrels from a variety of companies, including Canton Cooperage. Canton offers two, three and four year air dry and is owned by the same people who own Taransaud. Ridge bought four or five Taransaud barrels a year from me for an experiment. I don’t know if they still do.
Results were variable. The Monte Bello Cab is so powerful I sometimes think you could age it in pine barrels and nobody would notice although the wine would leak out and that would kill profits.
I was hoping you’d chime in Mel as our resident expert.
And I know Alfert will chime in about this: “In fact, the beautiful toasted oak notes of American oak can help cover some of the herbaceousness of cabernet sauvignon.” Yay!
Read my first post, Counselor. Ha!
I guess this article must’ve appeared here earlier, since it’s an old one, but it certainly fits the theme: The Evolution of American Oak - Kelli White - Articles - GuildSomm
I’ve found this piece of information especially interesting: “I’ve been told repeatedly by winemakers, especially those leaning French, that American oak brings too much rough tannin to a wine, so I was surprised to discover that American oak contains significantly lower levels of ellagitannins (tannins from oak) than European oak. Perhaps the issue, then, is not the inherent quality of the tannins, but the treatment of wood by the coopers. During the seasoning process, several things happen to the staves: a selection of fungi and bacteria metabolize various components within the wood, rain and snow help leach out some tannin, and the pores of the wood slowly open, allowing some of the remaining tannins to oxidize. As a result, an American oak barrel that was only minimally seasoned might appear far more tannic than a properly air-dried French barrel. This is also the likely source of the dill aroma that continues to plague the reputation of American oak, as insufficiently aged or improperly toasted wood can often contribute green, herbal aromas in addition to harsh tannins.”
Yes, and Ridge has always stressed the fact that its oak is well-seasoned.
Buy the Monte Bello Chard, not the estate: The last couple of years they’ve lowered the oak to ~10% new on the MB (from ~17% new). The estate chard oak level is still at ~17%.
Could not agree more - and I’ve always been taught that that last comment is the exact opposite of what actually happens chemically. That’s why American Oak tends to be used for those crazy Spanish Garnacha wines, for a lot of domestic Petite Sirah, etc. Vanillin is THE prominent chemical that is extracted during the toasting process with American Oak - not the case with French oak . . .
Cheers.
FWIW, I generally had the same impression of older Silver Oaks. I hadn’t tried any for probably 10 years or more when I visited there about four years ago with a few friends - one was a member of their wine club and arranged a tasting that included a couple of library wines. I was expecting the same dill pickle aromatics I’d gotten in the past but was pleasantly surprised not to find that at all - either in their then-current '10 and '11 releases or in the '06 and '08 library wines - even though I was trying hard to detect it. Just got the usual vanilla/spice/chocolate notes I’d expect from a good helping of new oak, but no dill. Still not really my style of wine but perhaps the old dill pickle character is a thing of the past there.
Went to a tour and tasting at Ridge a couple years ago. While the Zins and Petite Syrahs were fruit driven yet balanced without too much perceived American Oak (incredible wines), the 2013 Monte Bello Cabernet which was 100 points from Parker had an overwhelming aroma and taste of “green/herbaceous” and American oak qualities. I had to keep tasting the wine over and over to see if my nose and palate were playing tricks on me. For $200 and its iconic status, I was surprised. One of the other guests innocently asked, “why are these other wines we tasted $40 while this one (Monte Bello) is so expensive?” Kind of cringe worthy, but the guest kind of had a point. I’d be interested to taste the same 2013 Monte Bello a few years from now to see if that green/herby American oak quality has simmered down with the fruit and terroir to be more expressive. Nonetheless, I love Ridge Zins and other Rhone wines…